dondyYesterday at 11:42 PM
ok i'm not memeing
this is just a topic we hard disagree on
i genuinely don't think necrozma is busted tier

KuraiTenshi26Yesterday at 11:43 PM
i deadass said that it's borderline but fine for draft alongside mega latis
and then you go off bringing up tsareena and bullshit
that tells people that it's fine to bring up dogshit reasons cause "haha it's funny gimme likes"

dondyYesterday at 11:43 PM
ok look, i don't think its that good. I think its S tier
There I said it
I think it's S tier for the reasons that I stated. It's slow, unreliable recovery, good movepool but not godtier, etc
So I wasn't trying to meme, I was trying to make an argument for why I don't think it's that great

KuraiTenshi26Yesterday at 11:44 PM
a world where heatran is a decently fast wallbreaker but necro is slow as dicks, right

dondyYesterday at 11:44 PM
Ok I know we hard disgaree on Necrozma so I don't want to get started in the competitive discussion chat tbh
KuraiTenshi26Yesterday at 11:45 PM
actively ignoring any points i made in competitive discussion and putting any bad equivalencies aside, let's assume necro is S

dondyYesterday at 11:45 PM
I'm not gonna bring up moving it down to S tier in that chat cause I know not only you but like everyone will go off on me
I think Necrozma is fine in S, it's oppressive, yes, but I think it AS GOOD (equivalently good) as Jirachi and Blace
I know you're gonna go off on me for that and honestly I don't want to argue further about this rn

KuraiTenshi26Yesterday at 11:46 PM
this is so unreal, "i wanna make my points but i don't wanna hear or acknowledge yours"

dondyYesterday at 11:47 PM
Ok fine, make your points

KuraiTenshi26Yesterday at 11:47 PM
you literally don't reply to any points i make about tradeoffs with mega latis
i already did so many times in the past months
i am NOT regurgitating it again

dondyYesterday at 11:52 PM
Ok here we go about the tradeoffs : the trade off that necrozma gets is access to z and rocks for -30 speed and more immediate power from the latis. i think that the more immediate power and the speed is that much more important than the access to z. Z is super important in today's draft meta but rn that speed tier is so coveted and not having to waste a turn setting up with RP/autotomize is huge. Z is also one time use, that might not seem like a lot but at higher echelons of play players know how to bait out the z through tect scouting / switching and every turn with a z captain is a 50/50. m latios is faster, hits harder, can run mixed sets just as viably as necro, and the support sets it has (defog vs SR) i'd say defog is more worthwhile/important. m latias is faster but also much bulkier on both phys and special side, and again that speed tier is so important since speedcreep is massive in draft and you're able to invest so much more into bulk on lati's side, m lati has far more support/utility options than necro does such as reflect type and healing wish, and also like i've said before the defog is niche is more important than rocks IMO. anyways for those reasons i think that both m latis are outright better than necro in draft, mainly due to the speed tier and immediate power/bulk that they offer.
season 8 arif got lucky with cm necro and it won him like three games, season 9 which is often used as the benchmark for when necro started to show how busted it is i will wholeheartedly argue against moving it up to S+ but when there's 7 people in council asking for ur opinion and reasoning why it shouldn't move down all at the same time i'm not gonna try to defend necro for S tier in front of 7 people on the spot like big yikes. anyways season 9 as the season progressed people became more and more accustomed to playing against it, sure it was exceedingly hard to deal with (which an S tier mon always is) but you could actually see the performance of necro drop off as the season went on. i maintain that S9's necro dominance was due one part to a very favourable meta - i.e. a literal season full of fast offense teams and one pex balance t.can team, ofc a mon like necro is gonna tear through a season like that like a hot knife through butter but any anti-offense s tier would've done the same, in fact Lop did, the fact that mega aero was our best performing mon also sort of speaks to that as well. there's a reason as the season went on people started to experiment with bulkier mons/spreads, i.e. u guys started to look into aromatisse more (just as an example) and necro's performance started to drop off later on. people started to pick up on the fact that its toxic/status weak, its spdef stat is nothing to write home about, it can choose a couple moves (like infernape) but it only has one STAB and its coverage is mediocre at best.
you made fun of me for saying "just hit itLOL" is a viable strategy against it but that's actually true, early on in that season players weren't giving the mon the respect it mandated, ofc its not a B tier psychic, its up there in S, so when you treat a S tier mon like a B tier ofc its gonna get EZ clap wins, but there are games where players legit aren't hitting it/relying on knock to kill it/scared to bring toxic against it cause of arif's three games (three. he had three insane games then people figured out how to beat it). it absolutely has weaknesses that can be exploited against it and i really don't think it should be S+ tier, the "history" behind it is way overblown imo and it's relying on scare factor in order to bait players into thinking its the next magearna when in reality i think that it can be put on the same lvl as jirachi without much hubwub
either way that took me 15+mins to type and i had work to do so that's why i didn't want to get into this rn tbh(edited)
if you disagree w/ me on this that's perfectly fine and valid, but those are my thoughts regarding this mon

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:00 AM
conveniently glossed over the same strengths and wrongly downplayed necro's movepool again but alright
i'll make a post much later when it comes up again

dondyToday at 12:01 AM
ok
i respect your opinion about this
this topic in particular just happens to be omega cancer aids

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:02 AM
it only is when one side either exaggerates or overly downplays a weakness or strength respectively

dondyToday at 12:02 AM
ok ik ur accusing me of that and i'm not exaggerating /downplaying anything
its possible that my view just happens to be different than yours and what i wrote is indicative of what i think

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:04 AM
you conveniently left out the part where it has all the coverage it needs to break down every steel, psychic, or dark type in the game. you also left out in tradeoffs that it literally has 3 setup options that mega latis didn't have. you subjectively said defog is more important than stealth rocks when they are equivalently important overall, and tried to present a fundamental mechanic of pokemon as an exaggerated weakness for necrozma (hitting setup)
also left out knock off and berries for utility
and you always push that necro is "only anti-offense" when it is used in competitive play near exclusively as a wall/stallbreaker
it's anti-everything, whatever you want it to
and as i said a long while before, "also it's much more unpredictable and harder to revenge than everything S, can decimate every playstyle harder than everything in S, and is as comparable in power level to everything in S+"

dondyToday at 12:10 AM
Ok when I'm more lucid I'll respond to those, I'll finish this assignment first if you don't mind

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:10 AM
go for it, i was about to say actually
my bad for keeping you

dondyToday at 12:10 AM
I don't understand why you have to accuse me of downplaying / exaggeration though as if i'm trying to warp the facts to fit my personal agenda
That honestly kinda annoyed me which is why I'm still here

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:11 AM
there doesn't have to be an agenda to exaggerate or downplay
i didn't even think there was

dondyToday at 12:11 AM
I'm not exaggerating / downplaying anything, I listed the key facts that I thought were important in why I think personally Necrozma should be S tier and not S+

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:11 AM
not everything there was fact

dondyToday at 12:12 AM
Out of what I said yes Defog > SR is a subjective opinion based on my experience in fitting defog and rocks on team compositions
But otherwise everything I said is either factual or well supported by the available data
I don't mind arguing for something like this - honestly you're my favourite person to argue with weird as that sounds - but it's just a bit annoying when i try to come at this from a factual standpoint and get disregarded because apparently i'm downplaying strengths or something

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:14 AM
do you disagree with what i said you left out?
because that's downplaying strengths
and the "weaknesses" you said were universal about anything that tries to setup. i believe i even went over a while ago that necro can punish all those "anti setup" things anyway

dondyToday at 12:15 AM
what i wrote has nothing to do with downplaying strengths. i acknowledged its multitude of strengths. i don't think its very good at breaking the types that you mentioned so yes i do disagree with what you said i left out
the weaknesses that i mentioned are things that people didn't do early in S9 which allowed Necrozma to set up.

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:16 AM
it literally breaks cress-mandibuzz
idk what else you want it to break

dondyToday at 12:16 AM
How

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:16 AM
with sd

dondyToday at 12:16 AM
That doesn't answer my question
It breaks Cress at best and trades a Toxic on it

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:16 AM
it runs sd, geyser, x-scissor, stone edge

dondyToday at 12:17 AM
+2 252 Atk Necrozma X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 112+ Def Cresselia: 214-254 (48.1 - 57.2%) -- 43% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
big dmg

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:17 AM
. its ru set is literally buginium
then again that was from mid 2018 last i checked

dondyToday at 12:17 AM
congrats the specialized cress/mandi killer can do a reasonable job at breaking down the specific core that its meant to break

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:17 AM
yeah, you're kinda proving my point that it breaks every core it wants to
if you want to break cress-steelix, it has a set for that too

dondyToday at 12:18 AM
anything in S tier can break a core if they want to hyperspecialize into that field

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:18 AM
yep, and necrozma can do that while being anti-offense or giving utility

dondyToday at 12:18 AM
so congrats, now your 79 base speed S+ can break a specific two mon core

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:18 AM
it's the whole that's greater than the sum

dondyToday at 12:18 AM
how does that set give utility at all

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:19 AM
it can break EVERY core, it can sweep any HO

dondyToday at 12:19 AM
how is that set anti offense
where is the utility
ig it can run rocks over geyser
but then that just proves MY point of being a hyperspecialized two 'mon killer which any mon in S tiers can do if they awnt

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:19 AM
are you trying to suggest that a mon has to be 100% anti HO, anti-stall, anti-balance, and support in one set?

dondyToday at 12:20 AM
no you said that "necrozma can do that while being anti offense or giving utility"
and i say it can't

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:20 AM
oml not simultaneously

dondyToday at 12:20 AM
it chooses one of those to be which is fine
but that's not symptomatic of being some godtier mon
most of S tier can choose which one of those three they want to do
i dont see how that's something exclusive to necro

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:21 AM
ig mega lop can't be all of those things in one set either, down to S it goes
that's such an unreasonable thing to request of an S+
to do everything in one set
and that defies everything draft stands for, which is picking what works in a matchup

dondyToday at 12:21 AM
OK i will concede the point that
that was a misunderstanding
BUT still i dont' see how having the potential to do all three of those makes Necrozma some insane god tier mon
plenty of mons can do all three of those (ofc not simultaneously)

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:23 AM
no, most S tier is not capable of destroying every core, destroying every HO, or crippling/abusing utility whenever it wants
all in one mon

dondyToday at 12:23 AM
counterpoint
yes
lots of S tiers can do exactly all three of those
if by crippling utility you mean "ok rocks setter and can also run knock off and sometimes trick room"
which is exactly the extent of its utility
looking at S tier, mons like zam, zard, steela, clef, dragonite, hoopa, rachi, manaphy, both tapus, tini can all "destroy every core" if they want to hyperspecialize as far as the "standard" RU necrozma set, they're also all capable of "destroying every HO" if by that you mean "boosting up with RP then catching some offense team with a Z bait" (which is also exactly what the "anti HO" Necrozma set does and did do all of S9), '

KuraiTenshi26Today at 12:35 AM
rocks, twave, knock and trick room is more than enough utility when you factor in all the setup and coverage it has to compensate.

i'm going to keep zam out of this because i plan to nom it to S+ (it is the closest comparison alongside victini in S), but clef/rachi/steela do not have the "destroy every core" or "destroy every HO" element. dnite/hoopa/zardy do not provide much utility to a team and actually require team support, koko does not have an overly wide coverage pool like necrozma, and bulu lacks the "destroy HO" aspect. necrozma has all of those criteria in one mon, but most S tiers don't have all these criteria at once.

also, not every pokemon has to be S+ for identical reasons. zard x offers very little defensively outside of wisp sets (which is not a lot of utility but it's something), and instead massively makes up for it with stupid offensive setup. necrozma doesn't have stupid levels of setup, but it's still amazing while still being very versatile movepool-wise, being light on support requirement, and has support opportunities as well for its team. I think of it as "point allocation" where stuff like zard x and kyu-b are maxed out on some parts of "S+" criteria, but altaria-m and necrozma are somewhat more well-rounded