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Nov 28th, 2011
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  1. <Fishman> I see things are the same as usual. I think it's more that you don't give them a clear path to use those ideas as you're fond of having thigns be mired in a puddle that expect insight that can't be expected from most anon.
  2. <Zer00> I don't expect exceptional insight.
  3. <Zer00> I expect you to run with what you talk about.
  4. <Zer00> Want to talk to Eirin? Do so without pussyfooting around.
  5. <Zer00> Honestly there's nothing wrong with simple ideas, so long as they're founded on good logic
  6. <Zer00> Even if you're wrong about the specifics you at least have a base to work from
  7. <Zer00> as it stands every single thing starts from a different angle and different base
  8. <Fishman> they would if they thought it'd lead anywhere and from past expereince in your story, it's not likely to.
  9. <Klaymen> I don't think changing your writing style is the answer, anyway
  10. <Klaymen> That just leads to lots more headaches
  11. <Zer00> I think that's an unfair accusation. Every time that anon has actually stuck with something it's worked out.
  12. <Zer00> Pushing Kaguya to be direct instead of being circumspect? Worked.
  13. <Fishman> Well they're not willing to try shirouing someone who's not willing to speak... and I remember the last time they tried talking to Eirin that it only made a new rash or problems.
  14. <Fishman> *of
  15. <Zer00> It's just an example of a general malaise.
  16. * Escalator (cgiirc@fiery.dongs) has joined #eientei
  17. <Zer00> The problem isn't that readers do/don't want to talk to Eirin.
  18. <Zer00> It's with all that they say and discuss not deciding on anything.
  19. <Fishman> because they feel that the action would be futile in the end. And things would be clearer if you didn't tweak the story as to milk for discussion/insight that's not likely to come. It's like someone putting an apple out of reach expecting the test subjects to make a step ladder.
  20. <Zer00> From my end I have and will continue to try to steer things in a productive direction. But you can't do that if everything is an insecure fumble
  21. <Reisenserv> From my irregular sleep cycle and now my heart melt.
  22. * Wriggle has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
  23. <Zer00> That's fine then. Then no input at all, cruise control it is.
  24. <Zer00> Don't be daft.
  25. <Zer00> What's the point of choices if nothing changes anything?
  26. <Zer00> I pause when I have to, because it feels right not to milk anything or anyone.
  27. <Fishman> thing is none of the choices rarely seems any good and it's not the first time someoen put out a bunch of bad choices in an asasine attempt to fish for write ins.
  28. <Zer00> Yeah, well, I don't do that. Hell, there are never any 'bad' choices.
  29. <Klaymen> man, this is going in a completely different direction now
  30. <Zer00> I've stated as much.
  31. <Zer00> What matters more is the general direction than just any one choice.
  32. <Klaymen> sorry for stirring the hive/I think I'm heading off to bed
  33. <Zer00> Goodnight.
  34. <Tewiserv> Goodnight. don't let the bed bunnies nibble.
  35. <Zer00> You probably haven't.
  36. <Zer00> This will probably just end in silence.
  37. <Escalator> don't all things?
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  39. <Fishman> I'm serious about the mindset thing as if you're insisting on the same mindset the same things will happen over and over, mainly you resuming writing, you getting frustrated at the lack of "insight" and you quitting.... only for the cycle to start up again a short time after time.
  40. <Zer00> No, some things end in concord and results.
  41. <Fishman> Now that I rememebr it, it seems the last few choices aren't making much ground at all with the whole Eirin issue looming overhead still.
  42. <Zer00> You're fundamentally wrong about that.
  43. <Zer00> and about the choices being about eirin
  44. <Zer00> I don't despair over lack of insight, I despair over lack of, well, balls.
  45. <Zer00> Stating something and then doing something.
  46. <Fishman> maybe if they had a sign it wouldn't end in failure they'd go for it.
  47. <Reisenserv> maybe if you dont die.
  48. <Zer00> As it is there is speech but no resolution.
  49. <Reisenserv> As it is perfect as he has.
  50. <Zer00> I don't know what else there is but past results and my word.
  51. <Zer00> Like I said, when things have been pursued consistently, things have turned out well.
  52. <Fishman> yeah but the Eirin talking seems to cause more problems than solving them, hence why they're thinking of other angles because only a moron would try charging a seemingly invincible wall without any kinks/flaws to abuse.
  53. <Zer00> dude
  54. <Zer00> Forget Eirin
  55. <Zer00> that was, like, an example of a possible thing to do
  56. <Zer00> For all that I care it doesn't matter if you decide to build a small home in the woods, taking Reisen with you. So long as there's a clear reasoning behind it and a clear expectation at the end of how that would affect your future.
  57. <Fishman> yeah but it's the biggest problem at the moment without any sign of much else. And honest people are afraid of screwing up with such possibly massive results as they think if they screw up, Eirin would basically get rid of Shirou.
  58. <Zer00> Look, things will resolve one way or another, that's my job to worry about
  59. <Reisenserv> things will pick the story
  60. <Zer00> What the readers should worry about is what path to take.
  61. <Zer00> Is there an obvious lifeline in the pipes? Yes. but it doesn't matter
  62. <Zer00> It's a story primarily about relationships
  63. <Zer00> So it's important for people to set the tone and direction for it.
  64. <Fishman> hard to tell if there's hardly any signs saying so and it's hard to keep up the thinking momentium with you "quitting" every so often.
  65. <Klaymen> >requesting more balls in a touhou story
  66. <Klaymen> I'LL BE RIGHT OVER
  67. <Zer00> Technically only quit once.
  68. * Klaymen has quit (Quit: oh right I was going to bed)
  69. <Zer00> But as understandable as criticism of me might be, it doesn't change the overall situation.
  70. <Zer00> The whole picking something and going with it.
  71. <Zer00> Requires no momentum.
  72. <Zer00> In fact, is what sets things in motion.
  73. <Fishman> techinically sure, but the results are the same, long massive waits between updates doesn't do much favors for the think tank as they end up A) forgotting about the exact detacts of their plans and B) go about doing other things in these waits.
  74. <Zer00> You may be completely right. I don't think it matters in the least.
  75. <Zer00> At least not for going with something.
  76. <Zer00> I mean
  77. <Zer00> for fuck's sake, every single discussion dies off without any sort of result. Every update that is.
  78. <Zer00> There's clearly effort and investment there
  79. <Zer00> so it's not like there isn't the potential, my eccentricities notwithstanding
  80. <Zer00> I think that, yeah, not writing sucks a lot for readers and does damage. But writing a lot isn't necessarily going to fix things either, at least judging from the past.
  81. <Fishman> because people don't have a clear target to go to and they're not willing to take a massive risk only to be rewarded with a massive disaster and such. And what are we going to do without a new update to think off of and such?
  82. <Zer00> That's kind of contradictory man. First you slam me for 'milking' discussion then accuse me of not providing enough material to go off of?
  83. <Zer00> Do you think it would help if I said, "go for broke, it's cool"?
  84. <Fishman> but it helps keep people's minds on the game and instead of wasting time remembering the minute details of the plans, the last step would be fresh on their minds when the next update comes. I don't mean material but a general "sign" that something has a chance of succeding and I think you do that subconciously out of your desire for "discussion"
  85. <Zer00> because I would if it meant moving past things
  86. <Fishman> I'd suggest the next time Eirin is seen talking, try subtly highlighting a mental/emotional weakness that Shirou could use to actually gain a bit of ground on for example.
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  88. <Zer00> You know... minute detail has never been something I have expected people to remember. Hell, I don't remember a lot of little details. It's the greater actions and scenes at large that matter. I have on occasion stopped to give people a chance to digest stuff when there's a lot of information dumped but I contest the charge of any subconscious wankery when it comes to pacing and flow.
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  90. <Zer00> And again, it's not really about Eirin here either. Something which the characters themselves have remarked more than once. Besides, it's not that I don't want to help but something like mental weakness sounds exactly like the kind of not-obvious 'insight' you accuse me of expecting readers of having.
  91. <Fishman> But it's the example of a problem that has anon stumped. The last thing as bad as the Sliver the Rabbit arc.
  92. <Zer00> That worked out fine in the end though. When you finally took a firm stance.
  93. <Fishman> yeah to basically walk away and give up.
  94. <Zer00> You chose to completely ignore that and focus solely on Kaguya. Which was great.
  95. <Zer00> It wasn't just giving up
  96. <Fishman> well it definitely didn't do favors with Eirin "The wall" Yakagoro.
  97. <Zer00> It was quitting and then taking things on another direction with a clear goal - getting her out of Eientei to develop thing free without influence
  98. <Zer00> She can go screw herself. Potentially. It doesn't matter what she thinks as long as what you're doing works, right?
  99. <Fishman> it was good on the Kaguya front, I'd agree on that. Though with the Eirin issue, I don't think there's even a "walk away yet have things not go to pot" option.
  100. <Zer00> Honestly, if I were a reader, I'd be focusing more on trying to build a stable life first than directly confronting her.
  101. <Zer00> But that's my personal bias.
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  103. * Azuko has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  104. <Zer00> I can see a lot of logic in confronting her, but it depends on how big a deal you make her.
  105. <Fishman> people also feel that if the rift remains between Kaguya and Eirin that it'll become unrepairable with the strain evident in all future dealings.
  106. <Zer00> Does that matter?
  107. <Zer00> I mean
  108. <Reisenserv> Does that have been cut nearly in half that was playing bejeweled when I was surprised that anyone plays it
  109. <Zer00> Has it occurred to you that a split is a viable and relatively ok way for things to work out?
  110. <Fishman> Not between women is isn't in general.
  111. <Zer00> Well, sexism aside, you could look at it from a coming of age perspective: the child leaves home to live her own life.
  112. <Zer00> What I'm trying to say deep down is that you're too fixated on something which is not static and has no one solution.
  113. <Fishman> Well it seems to be the biggest problem in the story as there's no subthreads about ways Shirou could be "productive" (whatever the hell that means)
  114. <Zer00> I will agree that's rather vague. Somewhat purposefully, perhaps too much. The point is that every character will have a different opinion.
  115. <Fishman> I.e. no clear path and thus the risk that if one is taken, odds are Shirou'd be worse for tear with nothing to gain. It doesn't help that he doesn't have much talent in anything practical (last time I checked, run one Shirou mustered up enough to actually chop some trees down I think)
  116. <Zer00> Life has no guarantees of success. You do what feels right and hope for the best.
  117. <Zer00> hell, he could try to become Gensokyo's first therapist/mediator and use his skills to ameliorate things with Eirin.
  118. <Zer00> Sounds stupid, yeah, but I'm just throwing things out there. You make a choice, you do the best you can.
  119. <Zer00> If the story was going to end in disaster, it would have done so long ago.
  120. <Fishman> well people still remember how the first run ended and I suspect it lingers over their heads, though A decent idea would be perhaps try assiting Reisen (provided she isn't too traumatized by past exploits) in her tasks, taking some notes from her and such.
  121. <Zer00> To what end?
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  123. <Fishman> Dunno, possibly being a back up medicine seller, perhaps freeing Reisen up for other tasks as I don't think selling medicine is a talent intensive job.
  124. <Zer00> That's not a terrible idea.
  125. <Zer00> It's something. You know, better than deciding on just floating along.
  126. <Fishman> it'd be a way of showing being productive in general and to eientei. And when the next update comes I'll suggest that as I'm not sure if posting it now would have much of an effect.
  127. <Zer00> Maybe, maybe not.
  128. <Zer00> I mean the last vote was more like getting a chance to ask about something creative
  129. <Zer00> I mean the obvious choices were already spelled out
  130. <Fishman> Yeah... well I went and posting, now to see what happens.
  131. <Zer00> creative, like, finding things that push Eirin's buttons or people that do so. Perhaps advice on how to keep her away from your happy life. Or about any interesting facts about life in gensokyo in general
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