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JaysonSunshine

Theistic Apes Strike Back!

JaysonSunshine
Dec 1st, 2017
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  1. 10:38:18 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Sure. We're working with the very long tail of the risk equation here. lol.
  2. 10:39:10 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Modelling is probably the best way to escape the shortcomings of the story-telling model of reasoning. Sure.
  3. 10:39:47 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: That particular cluster of risk factor cells is indeed weighted very heavily.
  4. 10:40:27 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Axioms. A priori truths are a separte animal (and probably mythical).
  5. 10:41:30 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Sure. But it fits most of the long tail scenarios pretty well. I mean who would want to hang out with a god that prefers peopel who burn witches to people who sincerely made an effort to be good and kind and generous?
  6. 10:41:54 AM+RenaissanceManFor eternity!!! 8-O
  7. 10:42:26 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Last time I checked my long-tail risk factor cells were on the table. lol
  8. 10:42:43 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: hence the need for risk modelling. ;-)
  9. 10:43:21 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: The poit is that things end badly no matter what you do in that scenario, even if you are a witch burner.
  10. 10:44:06 AM+RenaissanceManObviously I don't particlarly want that scenario. But if it is, I've certainly included it in the risk equation.
  11. 10:45:24 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: You want percentages?
  12. 10:46:01 AM+RenaissanceManProbability of life after death: 1E-12 based on accumulated evidence. (I hope you have a decent sense of how small that number is)
  13. 10:46:47 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceRenaissanceMan: I think it is smaller than that.
  14. 10:46:55 AM+RenaissanceManNo conclusive evidence. That's right. If there were, the value would be zero.
  15. 10:46:59 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceI believe the Standard Model is proved to a higher degree of confidence than that.
  16. 10:47:09 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAnd the Standard Model prevents life after death.
  17. 10:47:14 AM+RenaissanceManCloverwindQuickdance: Could be. That is a very small number though. :-)
  18. 10:47:19 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAgreed.
  19. 10:47:44 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceRenaissanceMan: Tell me if you disagree with the following analysis:
  20. 10:48:03 AM+CloverwindQuickdance(I am an ethical vegetarian who, like Peter Singer, believes all life deserves equal consideration)
  21. 10:48:26 AM+CloverwindQuickdance1. Humans have an average intelligence level that is substantially higher than most other non-humans
  22. 10:48:40 AM+RenaissanceManCloverwindQuickdance: A reasonable argument. One would have to make some allowances for the fact that the standard model is undeniably incomplete. But not a lot of allowances.
  23. 10:48:53 AM+CloverwindQuickdance2. The gap between the average human and the average non-human, for almost all non-human species, makes communication between that human and that non-human impossible on a range of topics
  24. 10:49:36 AM+CloverwindQuickdance3. There is a reasonably large gap between very smart, educated humans and the average theistic human
  25. 10:50:06 AM+CloverwindQuickdance4. The gap between the very smart, educated human and the average theistic human can be modeled, with some usefulness, as a similar though less intense relationship as in (2)
  26. 10:50:35 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceExample: Does the average theistic human give any care whatsoever or believe whatsoever that the Standard Model has any bearing on the notion of life after death?
  27. 10:50:46 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceEven though the Standard Model utterly prevents life after death
  28. 10:51:40 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAnd no matter how much you bring up the Standard Model to the average theistic human, no matter how much you indicate its confidence level, no matter how much you try and educate the theistic human on the statistical methods that generated that confidence level, the average theistic human will have their beliefs on life after death no modified in the slightest
  29. 10:52:12 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAnd that just seems very similar to an average human attempting to teach an average non-human about large numbers
  30. 10:52:28 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: The absence of soul force.
  31. 10:53:21 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Also based on the premise that anything that exists has to do stuff. :-P
  32. 10:53:28 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceRenaissanceMan: All particles which exist at low-energy and highly-interact with standard atomic matter has been discovered
  33. 10:53:56 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceThere is no possible mechanism for life to survive death other than what is currently known
  34. 10:54:02 AMⓘ QRT set mode -b danut!*@*
  35. 10:54:03 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceWhat is currently known does not support survival of death
  36. 10:54:33 AM+CloverwindQuickdancePlus, surviving death is a mostly absurd concept, prima facie, and a clear coping mechanism invented by a species to mitigate dread
  37. 10:54:46 AM+RenaissanceManCloverwindQuickdance: And the force that mediates dark matter (and the family of particles that wold exist as a consequence)? Currently not accounted for. And definely low-energy.
  38. 10:54:49 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceThe evolutionary model of life does not really make any notion of survival of death coherent
  39. 10:55:05 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceRenaissanceMan: I think that is false
  40. 10:55:22 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceDark matter is not exotic matter, is my understanding
  41. 10:55:24 AM+RenaissanceManCloverwindQuickdance: Which part?
  42. 10:55:31 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAlso, I am directly citing Sean Carroll, cosmologist
  43. 10:55:49 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceWho has multiple videos on this topic @ all of low-energy physics with highly-interacting particles forever solved
  44. 10:56:07 AM→ DownBeat has joined
  45. 10:56:09 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAlso, there is no evidence dark matter is in anyway involved in life on Earth
  46. 10:56:09 AMⓘ Profound set mode +v DownBeat
  47. 10:56:31 AM→ Toph1 has joined
  48. 10:56:33 AMⓘ Profound set mode +v Toph1
  49. 10:56:54 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceI am wrong at dark matter not being 'exotic matter'
  50. 10:57:47 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceI get that you're being thorough, but invoking dark matter to mitigate the dread of humans incapable of accepting their finite lives is dishonest (that's not what you're doing it)
  51. 10:58:13 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceIt's like when it's 300 CE and we know the universe is equivalent to geocentric solar system and we say Theos created all that
  52. 10:58:14 AM+RenaissanceManCloverwindQuickdance: Sounds reasonable to me. :-)
  53. 10:58:43 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAnd then we find out in the 19th century that the universe is actually tens of thousands of light years across
  54. 10:58:59 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceAnd the theist *just immediately* says, Oh, yeah, all that that we never discussed once in our intellectual tradition, yeah, Theos made all that, too
  55. 10:59:00 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: I did agree. Compeltely. Why? Would you like to argue that dark matter is in fact the mass of souls hanging aroudn in interstellar space?
  56. 10:59:08 AM+RenaissanceManFeel free.
  57. 10:59:20 AM+CloverwindQuickdancelol @ mass of souls hanging around in interstellar space
  58. 11:00:10 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Not in a bayesian logical framework, where absence of evidence is in fact evidence of absence. ;-)
  59. 11:00:37 AM+RenaissanceMan4,000 years of absence of evidence. Not just a good idea. A crushingly compelling argument.
  60. 11:00:43 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceThe ontological fallacy of expecting a light at the end of the tunnel, well, that’s what the preacher sells, same as a shrink. See, the preacher, he encourages your capacity for illusion. Then he tells you it’s a f*cking virtue. Always a buck to be had doing that, and it’s such a desperate sense of entitlement, isn’t it? “Surely, this is all for me. Me. Me, me, me. I, I. I’m so f*cking important. I’m so f*cking important, then, right?” f*ck you.
  61. 11:01:02 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceThis is what I thought of when I realized that most theists who learn of the existence of dark matter will immediately assume that's where their dead relatives are
  62. 11:01:39 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Not really. It's applying occam's razor to the available evidence.
  63. 11:01:46 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceSo, then, we all just know Theos made the entire universe of tens of thousands of light years across. How glorious!
  64. 11:01:56 AM+RenaissanceManComplete absence of evidence of immaterial forces.
  65. 11:01:59 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceThen, we learn that there are these really distant objects that are outside the galaxy and we call them island universes
  66. 11:02:07 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceOh, yeah, those are made by Theos, too
  67. 11:02:17 AM+CloverwindQuickdanceOh, the universe is billions of light years across? Yep, Theos made that, too
  68. 11:02:18 AMⓘ dizzy_ set mode +b *!*@192.241.168.26
  69. 11:02:24 AM+RenaissanceManThacker-: Plus an astounding volume of evidence on sham religions, from which one has to draw SOME conclusion.
  70. 11:02:25 AM× You have been kicked by dizzy_ (language)
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