STREET TRANSVESTITE REVOLUTIONARY INTERVIEW MARSHA P JOHNSON

RAPPING WITH A STREET TRANSVESTITE REVOLUTIONARY
AN INTERVIEW WITH MARSHA P JOHNSON
Interview by Allen Young
First published in Out of the Closets, 1972

Interviewer: You were starting to tell me a few minutes ago that a group of STAR
people got busted. What was that all about?

Johnson: Well, we wrote an article for Arthur Bell, of the Village Voice, about STAR, and we told him that we were all “girlies” and we’re working up on the 42nd Street area. And we all gave our names - Bambi, Andorra, Marsha, and Sylvia. And we all went out to hustle, you know, about a few days after the article came out in the Village Voice, and you see we get busted one after another, in a matter of a couple of weeks. I don’t know whether it was the article, or whether we just got busted because it was hot.

Interviewer: Were they arresting a lot of transvestites up around there?

Johnson: Oh, yes, and they still are. They’re still taking a lot of transvestites and a lot of women down to jail.

Interviewer: How do they make the arrests?

Johnson: They just come up and grab you. One transvestite they grabbed right out of her lover’s arms, and took her down. The charges were solicitation. I was busted on direct prostitution. I picked up a detective - he was in a New Jersey car. I said, “Do you work for the police ?” And he said no, and he propositioned me and told me he’d give me fifteen dollars, and then told me I was under arrest. So I had to do twenty days in jail.

Interviewer: Was the situation in jail bad?

Johnson: Yes, it was. A lot of transvestites were fighting amongst each other. They have a lot of problems, you know. They can’t go to court, they can’t get a court date. Some of them are waiting for years. You know, they get frustrated and start fighting with one another. An awful lot of fights go on there.

Interviewer: How are relations between the transvestites and the straight prisoners? Is that a big problem?

Johnson: Oh, the straight prisoners treat transvestites like they’re queens. They send them over cigarettes and candy, envelopes and stamps and stuff like that - when they got money. Occasionally they treat them nice. Not all the time.

Interviewer: Is there any brutality or another like that?

Johnson: No, the straight prisoners can’t get over by the gay prisoners. They’re separated. The straight prisoners are on one side, and the gay prisoners are on another.

Interviewer: Can you say something about the purpose of STAR as a group?

Johnson: We want to see all gay people have a chance, equal rights, as straight people have in America. We don’t want to see gay people picked up on the streets for things like loitering or having sex or anything like that. STAR originally was started by the president, Sylvia Lee Rivera, and Bubbles Rose Marie, and they asked me to come in as vice president. STAR is a very revolutionary group. We believe in picking up the gun, starting a revolution if necessary. Our main goal is to see gay people liberated and free and have equal rights that other people have in America. We’d like to see our gay brothers and sisters out of jail and on the streets again. There are a lot of gay transvestites who have been in jail for no reason at all, and the reason why they don’t get out is they can’t get a lawyer or any bail. Bambi and I made a lot of contacts when we were in jail, and Andorra, she went to court and she walked out.

Interviewer: What do you mean she walked out?

Johnson: Well, when you’re picked up for loitering and you don’t have a police record, a lot of times they let you go, and they let your police record build up, and then they’ll go back there and look at it - and then they give you a lot of time. That’s how they work it down there at the courthouse. Like my bail was $1,000, because I have a long record for prostitution, and they refused to make it lower than $500. So when I went to court they told me they’d let me go if I pleaded guilty to prostitution. That’s how they do it, they tell you ahead of time what you’re going to get. Like before you even go before the judge, they try to make an agreement with you, so that they can get your case out of court, you know.

Interviewer: What would have happened if you’d pleaded not guilty?

Johnson: I would still be there. They gave me 20 days to serve. And a lot of people do that a lot of times. That’s how come their record is so bad, because they always plead guilty just so they can come out, cause they can’t get no lawyer or no money or no kind of help from the streets.

Interviewer: What are you doing now about these people who are still in there who need lawyers?

Johnson: We’re planning a dance. We can help as soon as we get money. I have the names and addresses of people that are in jail, and we’re going to write them a letter and let them know that we’ve got them a lawyer, and have these lawyers go down there and see if they can get their names put on the calendar early, get their cases put out of court, make a thorough investigation.

Interviewer: I remember when STAR was first formed there was a lot of discussion about the special oppression that transvestites experience. Can you say something about that?

Johnson: We still feel oppression by other gay brothers. Gay sisters don’t think too bad of transvestites. Gay brothers do. I went to a dance at Gay Activist Alliance last week, and there was not even one gay brother that came over and said hello. They’d say hello, but they’d get away very quick. The only transvestites they were very friendly with were the ones that looked freaky in drag, like freak drag, with no tits, no nothing. Well, I can’t help but have tits, they’re mine. And those men weren’t too friendly at all. Once in a while, I get an invitation to Daughters of Bilitis, and when I go there, they’re always warm. All the gay sisters come over and say, “Hello, we’re glad to see you,” and they start long conversations. But not the gay brothers. They’re not too friendly at all toward transvestites.

Interviewer: Do you understand why? Do you have any explanation for that?

Johnson: Of course I can understand why. A lot of gay brothers don’t like women! And transvestites remind you of women. A lot of gay brothers don’t feel too close to women, they’d rather be near men, that’s how come they’re gay. And when they see a transvestite coming, she reminds them of a woman automatically, and they don’t want to get too close or too friendly with her.

Interviewer: Are you more comfortable around straight men than around gay men sometimes?

Johnson: Oh, I’m very comfortable around straight men. Well, I know how to handle them. I’ve been around them for years, from working the streets. But I don’t like straight men. I’m not too friendly with them. There’s only one thing they want - to get up your dress, anything to get
up that dress of yours. Then when you get pregnant or something, they don’t even want to know you.

Interviewer: Do you find that there are some “straight” men who prefer transvestites to women ?

Johnson: There are some, but not that many. There’s a lot of gay men that prefer transvestites. It’s mostly bisexual type men, you know, they go both ways but don’t like anybody to know what’s happening. Rather than pick up a gay man, they’ll pick up a gay transvestite.

Interviewer: When you hustle on 42nd Street, do they know you re a transvestite, or do they think you’re a woman? Or does it depend?

Johnson: Some of them do and some of them don’t, because I tell them. I say, “It’s just like a grocery store; you either shop or you don’t shop.” Lots of times they tell me, “You’re not a woman!” I say, “I don’t know what I am if I’m not a woman.” They say, “Well, you’re not a woman.” They say “Let me see your cunt.” I say, “Honey, let me tell you something.” I say “You can either take it or leave it,” because, see, when I go out to hustle I don’t particularly care whether I get a date or not. If they take me, they got to take me as I want ‘em to take me. And if they want to go up my dress, I just charge them a little extra, and the price just goes up and up and up and up. And I always get all of my money in advance, that’s what a smart transvestite does. I don’t ever let them tell me, “I’ll pay you after the job is done.” I say I want it in advance. Because no woman gets paid after their job is done. If you’re smart, you get the money first.

Interviewer: What sort of living arrangements has STAR worked out?

Johnson: Well, we had our STAR home, at 213 E. 2nd Street, and you know, there was only one lesbian there, and a lot of stuff used to get robbed from her and I used to feel so sorry for her. People used to come in and steal her little methadone, because she was on drugs. I seen her the other day. She was the only lesbian who was staying with us. I really felt bad. She’s back on drugs again. And she was really doing good. The only reason I didn’t take her from STAR home and bring her here was the simple reason that I couldn’t handle it. My nerves have been very bad lately, and I’ve been trying to get myself back together since my husband died in March. It’s very hard for me. He just died in March. He was on drugs. He went out to get some money to buy some drugs and he got shot. He died on 2nd Street and First Avenue. I was home sleeping, and somebody came and knocked at the door and told me he was shot. And I was so upset that I just didn’t know what to do. And right after he died, the dog died, and the lesbian that was staying there was nice enough to pick the dog up out of the street for me. I couldn’t hardly stand it. I had two deaths this year, my lover and then the dog. So I’ve just had bad nerves; I’ve been going to the doctor left and right. And then to get arrested for prostitution was just the tops!

Interviewer: What about job alternatives? Is it possible to get jobs?

Johnson: Oh, definitely. I know many transvestites that are working as women, but I want to see the day when transvestites can go in and say, “My name is Mister So-and-So and I’d like a job as Miss So-and-So!” I can get a job as Miss Something-or-Other, but I have to hide the fact that I’m a male. But not necessarily. Many transvestites take jobs as boys in the beginning, and then after a while they go into their female attire and keep on working. It’s easier for a transsexual than a transvestite. If you are a transsexual it’s much easier because you become more feminine, and you have a bust-line, and the hair falls off your face and off your legs, and the muscles fall out of your arms. But I think it will be quite a while before a natural transvestite will be able to get a job, unless she’s a young transvestite with no hair on her face and very feminine looking.

Interviewer: Isn’t it dangerous sometimes when someone thinks you re a woman and
then they find out you re a man?

Johnson: Yes it is. You can lose your life. I’ve almost lost my life five times; I think I’m like a cat. A lot of times I pick up men, and they think I’m a woman and then they try to rob me. I remember the first time I ever had sex with a man, and I was in the Bronx. It was a Spanish man, I was trying to hustle him for carfare to come back to New York City. And he took my clothes off and he found out I was a boy and he pulled a knife off of his dresser and he threatened me and I had to give him sex for nothing. And I went to a hotel one time, and I told this young soldier that I was a boy, and he didn’t want to believe it and then when we got to the hotel I took off my clothes and he found out I was a boy for real and then he got mad and he got his gun and he wanted to shoot me. It’s very dangerous being a transvestite going out on dates because it’s so easy to get killed. Just recently I got robbed by two men. They robbed me and tried to put a thing around my neck and blindfold around my face. They wanted to tie my hands and let me out of the car, but I didn’t let them tie me up. I just hopped right out of the car. There was two of them, too. I cut my finger my accident, but they snatched my wig. I don’t let men tie me up. I’d rather they shoot me with my hands untied. I got robbed once. A man pulled a gun on me and snatched my pocketbook in a car. I don’t trust men that much any more. Recently I haven’t been dating. I’ve been going to straight bars and drinking, getting my money that way, giving people conversation, keeping them company while they’re at the bar. They buy you a drink, but of course they don’t know you’re a boy. You just don’t go out with any of them. Like my friend; she gets paid for entertaining customers, talking to them, getting them to buy a drink. I’m just learning about this field. I’ve never been in it before. That’s what I’ve been doing. I’ve been getting a lot of dollar bills without even doing anything. I tell them I need money for dinner.

Interviewer: Is one of the goals of STAR to make transvestites closer to each other? Do transvestites tend to be a close-knit group of friends?

Johnson: Usually most transvestites are friendly towards one another because they’re just alike. Most transvestites usually get along with one another until it comes to men. The men would separate the transvestites.

Because a lot of transvestites could be very good friends, you know, and then when they get a boyfriend... Like when I had my husband, he didn’t allow me to hang around with transvestites, he wanted me to up get away from them all. I felt bad, and I didn’t get away from them. He didn’t like me to speak to them and hang around with them too much. He wanted me to go in the straight world, like the straight bars and stuff like that.

Interviewer: Do you think there’s been any improvement between transvestites and other gay men since theformation of STAR, within the gay world, within the gay movement?

Johnson: Well, I went to GAA one time and everybody turned around and looked. All these people that spoke to me there were people that I had known from when I had worked in the Gay Liberation Front community center, but they weren’t friendly at all. It’s just typical. They’re not used to seeing transvestites in female attire. They have a transvestite there, Natasha, but she wears boys’ clothes with no tits or nothing. When they see me or Sylvia come in, they just turn around and they look hard.

Interviewer: Some of the transvestites aren’t so political; what do they think about your revolutionary ideas?

Johnson: They don’t even care. I’ve talked to many of the transvestites up around the Times Square area. They don’t even care about a revolution or anything. They’ve got what they want. Many of them are on drugs. Some of them have lovers, you know. And they don’t even come to STAR
meetings.

Interviewer: How many people come to STAR meetings?

Johnson: About 30, and we haven’t even been holding STAR meetings recently. Like Sylvia doesn’t have aplace to sleep, she’s staying with friends on 109th St.

Interviewer: Is there something you’d like to add?

Johnson: I’d like to see STAR get closer to GAA and other gay people in the community. I’d like to see a lot more transvestites come to STAR meetings, but it’s hard to get in touch with transvestites. They’re at these bars, and they’re looking for husbands. There’s a lot of transvestites who are very lonely, and they just go to bars to look for husbands and lovers, just like gay men do. When they get married, they don’t have time for STAR meetings. I’d like to see a gay revolution get started, but there hasn’t been any demonstration or anything recently. You know how the straight people are. When they don’t see any action they think, “Well, gays are all forgotten now, they’re worn out, they’re tired.” I would like to see STAR with a big bank account like we had before, and I’d like to see that STAR home again.

Interviewer: Do you have any suggestions for people in small towns and cities where there is no STAR?

Johnson: Start a STAR of their own. I think if transvestites don’t stand up for themselves, nobody else is going to stand up for transvestites. If a transvestite doesn’t say I’m gay and I’m proud and I’m a transvestite, then nobody else is going to hop up there and say I’m gay and I’m proud and I’m a transvestite for them, because they’re not transvestites. The life of a transvestite is very hard, especially when she goes out in the streets.

Interviewer: Is it one of the goals of STAR to create a situation so transvestites don’t have to go out in the street?

Johnson: So we don’t have to hustle any more ? It’s one of the goals of STAR in the future, but one of the first things STAR has to do is reach people before they get on drugs, ‘cause once they get on drugs it’s very very hard to get them off and out of the street. A lot of people on the streets are supporting their habits. There’s very few transvestites out on the streets that don’t use drugs.

Interviewer: What about the term “drag queen?” People in STAR prefer to use the term “transvestite." Can you explain the difference?

Johnson: A drag queen is one that usually goes to a ball, and that’s the only time she gets dressed up. Transvestites live in drag. A transsexual spends most of her life in drag. I never come out of drag to go anywhere. Everywhere I go I get all dressed up. A transvestite is still like a boy, very manly looking, a feminine boy. You wear drag here and there. When you’re a transsexual, you have hormone treatments and you’re on your way to a sex change, and you never come out of female clothes.

Interviewer: You’d be considered a pre-operative transsexual then? You don’t know
when you’d be able to go through the sex change ?

Johnson: Oh, most likely this year. I’m planning to go to Sweden. I’m working very hard to go.

Interviewer: It’s cheaper there than it is at Johns Hopkins?

Johnson: It’s $300 for a change, but you’ve got to stay there a year.

Interviewer: Do you know what STAR will be doing in the future?

Johnson: We’re going to be doing STAR dances, open a new STAR home, a STAR telephone, 24 hours a day, a STAR recreation center. But this is only after our bank account is pretty well together. And plus we’re going to have a bail fund for every transvestite that’s arrested, to see they get out on bail, and see if we can get a STAR lawyer to help transvestites in court.

Interviewer: What’s that thing going to be?

Johnson: What thing?

Interviewer: That thing you just made.

Johnson: It’s a G-string. Want to see ? This is so that if anybody sticks their hand up your dress, they don’t feel anything. They wear them at the 82 Club. See ? Everybody that’s a drag queen knows how to make one. See, it just hides everything.

Interviewer: If they reach up there, they don’t find out what’s really there!

Johnson: I don’t care if they do reach up there. I don’t care if they do find out what’s really there. That’s their business.

Interviewer: I guess a lot of transvestites know how to fight back anyway!

I carry my wonder drug everywhere I go - a can of Mace. If they attack me, I’m going to attack them, with my bomb.

Interviewer: Did you ever have to use it?

Johnson: Not yet, but I’m patient.