Ellaism Dev Meeting 24/02/2018

[11:00 PM] ellaismer: @here We're having a dev meeting right now. This happens every Saturday 4pm UTC. If you have any agenda you'd like to discuss, please post it now. :smiley:
[11:00 PM] ellaismer: !rsvp ping
[11:00 PM] BOTRSVPBot: @IaMaBeAsT @Towd @Mazaribeiroツ @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io @Count Cryptula @TBates76 @ellaismer @లిమాస్ @cryptodlt @0xcaffe @osoese @jal3inc @VIvekCRypto @Melny3
[11:01 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: !rsvp join
[11:01 PM] BOTRSVPBot: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET You have RSVPed to Weekly General Development Meeting on Saturday (24 Feb) 4pm UTC. Remember to be there!
[11:01 PM] ellaismer: I have one thing to discuss, about Dev Pool paying all community developers.
[11:02 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: i have a few topics of minor concern
[11:02 PM] psdev: !rsvp join
[11:02 PM] BOTRSVPBot: @psdev You have RSVPed to Weekly General Development Meeting on Saturday (24 Feb) 4pm UTC. Remember to be there!
[11:02 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer can go first when we are ready
[11:02 PM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io Can you post your topic list?
[11:03 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Coinomi listing
Graviex listing
OPAL/Ellagem Work
Secret Announcement
ella1
[11:04 PM] halkuon: !rsvp join
[11:04 PM] BOTRSVPBot: @halkuon You have RSVPed to Weekly General Development Meeting on Saturday (24 Feb) 4pm UTC. Remember to be there!
[11:04 PM] osoese: @here I am just working with @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io update
[11:04 PM] Mazaribeiroツ: Hi everyone.
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[11:05 PM] ellaismer: Okay great. If anyone still wants to raise more topic to discuss, please feel free to do it at any time. Otherwise let's start from the Dev Pool paying community devs issue.
[11:05 PM] ellaismer: (And looks like @TBates76 is not here yet so I'll again be the temporary host. )
[11:05 PM] johndis: !rsvp join
[11:05 PM] BOTRSVPBot: @johndis You have RSVPed to Weekly General Development Meeting on Saturday (24 Feb) 4pm UTC. Remember to be there!
[11:06 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: hes been working lots at his reallife job
[11:08 PM] ellaismer: So about that, currently we cannot immediately use Dev Fund to pay devs. So what I'm thinking about is to use profits from Dev Pool to pay all current Ellaism contributors.
[11:11 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Obviously only until the contributor fund is setup and usable i assume?
[11:11 PM] ellaismer: To make it fair, we make it a CarbonVote -- all contributors can request to join each month, and they would get a CarbonVote address each time where people can vote. By the end of the month or week, we pay all profits (reduced with server cost) by the shares of CarbonVote. There will also be a CarbonVote address of Dev Fund and the remaining goes to it.
[11:11 PM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io Hmm that's a good question. Honestly I have no idea. If Contributor Fund can take over the job, I'm happy to let it do that...
[11:12 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: i don't like the idea tbh
[11:12 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: i would more like to split again ... i think i said something about it weeks or months ago
[11:13 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: that's the idea of it in the first place and to use the dev fund for core/infrastructure but it will take time for that fund to get to a ussable state
[11:13 PM] ellaismer: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET What do you mean by "split"?
[11:13 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: name "full time" devs and pay them
[11:14 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: without voting or things
[11:14 PM] ellaismer: The problem is how do you decide who would name them?
[11:14 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: the community devs, community manager and you name them
[11:15 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: i choose riddlez :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
wesmart1
[11:15 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: hahaha
[11:15 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: ha ha ha @osoese is basically right there with me now
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[11:15 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: so we already could have two candidates now ^^
[11:16 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: i would try to keep things simple
[11:17 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: but only my 2 cents of course
[11:17 PM] ellaismer: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET To be honest, that would be rather destructive to all of our other contributors... As said before, if we pay people we need to pay everyone who contribute. Otherwise people who join the coin because of open source culture would leave.
[11:17 PM] osoese: @ellaismer has been doing some dev work too?
[11:18 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: and @MakeMoneyOz - ellaismpool.com  when he can
[11:18 PM] osoese: @MakeMoneyOz - ellaismpool.com puts in a lot of time yes
[11:18 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: all the little things i have done i have contributed out of my free will and don't want to be paid for it ... the others too
[11:19 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: now we are speaking only of the devs who invest that much time into the project that they MUST be paid imho(edited)
[11:19 PM] osoese: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET but you should be
[11:19 PM] ellaismer: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET So we've already come to a point where this will not work.... Now we disagree who should be "in" even with several people. How'd you want the larger Ellaism community to agree?
[11:20 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: think about our low coins value at the moment and limited funds as for now
[11:21 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: it is better for us to be able to pay e.g. riddlez and oseose stable and ongoing as to vote for "hinz und kunz" (random people)(edited)
[11:22 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: isn't it?
[11:23 PM] osoese: @MakeMoneyOz - ellaismpool.com too
[11:23 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: names are only ment as placeholders atm, sorry(edited)
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[11:25 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: again with a plcaholder function: if we can estimate that we could spend 9000 coins per month then spread this amount to the fixed devs each month
[11:26 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: or replace fixed with named devs
[11:26 PM] jal3inc: Hi everyone, new here still learning what’s going prior to diving into things. But to the current topic at hand. How about some type of tiered system. Where let’s say a core development task is much more valuable than a quick website css edit. Of course there would be more involved as tracking and agreeing to what would be classified as what but would give anyone a fair chance. Vs possible future favoritism.
[11:26 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: nevertheless, only wording ^^
[11:26 PM] ellaismer: To be honest, I won't support it if we only pay a few devs. I've already said the reason before:

We attract devs in two ways. First, good dev follows money, they would join if we have attractive salaries. We don't have that. And right now most developers join because of the second reason -- that Ellaism aligns with their philosophy and open source culture. If we start to pay people, we need to pay everyone who contribute. Otherwise, the scheme will feel like "closed" and all those who joined because of the philosophy would leave.

Ellaism is a decentralized platform though. If Minerpool already makes decent profit from them please feel free to carry on with it...
[11:27 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: tbh we have contributors who are more or less full time working, while others are not working that much
[11:28 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: or at all for all i know
[11:28 PM] osoese: @ellaismer for sure @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io is here every day and even for placeholder sake in conversation how do you equate what he is working on to someone stopping by and loading up an explorer for instance....what @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io is working on might take several weeks or a month of dev time to complete
[11:28 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: and a voting based system by random community people cannot fit
[11:28 PM] Towd: What about if we use the Dev fund as a long term investment fund and just distribute the community fund to people who contribute to github on a weekly basis.  Can use the carbon vote system to weight payout if desired.
[11:28 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Some sort of tier system @Towd where setting up a contributor fund to tackle that
[11:29 PM] osoese: so @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io comes through with his project after everyone else stopped in and got paid on carbon vote because they contribute quick fix items then nothing left for someone being a core dev in reality
[11:29 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: we have three funds:
- dev fund
- contributors fund
- community fund
[11:29 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: where the community fund is for cm things mostly
[11:30 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: 2/3 are setup @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET
[11:30 PM] ellaismer: @osoese I cannot support any "closed" scheme for payment. That's all. Not everyone like @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io due to some past issues. Yeah but I must say that personally I value his work.
[11:30 PM] psdev: on-chain payment tools like ethlance.com are getting more mature
[11:31 PM] Towd: my bad, I mean the contributor fund could be distributed weekly.  details of how we weight it could also be managed by the a lead dev to manage contribution weighting
[11:31 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: or i pay the people out of minerpool myself, a suitable way too
[11:31 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @Towd details on that all still being set in stone
[11:31 PM] osoese: @ellaismer I understand that but even in this case - myself - been working with @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io since Jan 1 on what turned into new wallet....going to get a version out in next day or so and it is absolute new development - how does that fit into the payment scheme?
[11:32 PM] osoese: true development doesn't always mean the guy with the most commits every day on GitHub but the guy who comes through with working product right?
[11:32 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: this was initially thought to funding the cm things ... but anyway, if i get the feeling we have people working for nuts, i can switch the minerpool payments
[11:32 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: This is all healthy and constructive so thank you all @here
ellamoo4
[11:33 PM] tinchopf: :heart:
[11:33 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: but we will have a gap in the community fund then
[11:35 PM] Towd: one more possibility for those who don't wish compensation for their contributions would be to allow for an "opt out"  for whatever payout system is ultimately decided upon
[11:36 PM] ellaismer: @osoese We have many ways to define the payment scheme. What I think matters here is that a) we keep things "open", and b) it is at least in some sense fair.

I understand some of you might have put great efforts. However, many top-tier developers might be able to finish in a several days for what we've done for weeks. How'd you define who contribute more to Ellaism then? We don't have a "best" way right now, so that's why I said to use CarbonVote -- it is at least in some sense fair enough.

Though I think if @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET takes over paying @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io then that would be an entirely different issue. It's his pool and his own decision, anyway.
[11:36 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: my concern to the point is, random community member cannot overview which dev is doing how much work behind the scenes
[11:37 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: while we already know how much work individual devs do
[11:38 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: and I don't want to measure the speed of a dev
[11:39 PM] osoese: @ellaismer understood what you are saying but "top dev" didn't show up on Jan 1 and work on the issue at hand and just being able to copy paste code from another coin doesn't mean top dev imo - at the end of the day I am here working on ELLA to see ELLA be successful and when that happens know I will get paid in ELLA returns...but if payments are going out it would be nice to participate in them as usage continues
[11:43 PM] osoese: if "top dev" did original work then "top dev" would be there to assist new devs in the codebase when they have questions and with all due respect no one on this discord has been there for that lead role in any capacity so far. When I have questions I've even had to reach out to frozeman (eth dev) and he gives random answers even called ELLA copy paste scam. ETC group can't answer questions because of bad blood or whatever, right? So where is community support in that case? It didn't exist and I had to take the time to learn the codebase - which has no relevant comments to guide a dev you just have to read the code. That is why I have to fall back on to be a good dev in this community it isn't fair to just pay someone for work done if they aren't participating in teaching that open source code base to others
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[11:44 PM] ellaismer: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET My concern is just that nobody can reach an agreement in this case. If "random community member" has different opinions on who is more valuable, then nobody would be able to make a decision if we need to choose who are the full-time devs... So in this case CarbonVote at least gets us somewhere.
However, if we make it a company/personal decision (such as paying from MinerPool), what you said might work.

Though in essence I cannot support anything that looks too "closed". ..
[11:44 PM] osoese: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io was the only one who took the time to help me get set up
[11:45 PM] osoese: and then we produced some new wallet code - when it goes live open source - then I am able to explain to any dev what every line of code does because we wrote it from ground up
[11:45 PM] osoese: that is why I say ....it isn't just about GitHub
[11:47 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: This all a brainstorm session towards the contributor fund also as it will need a scheme of some sorts which is still undecided.
[11:50 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: As for being paid i think if the dev pool wants to donate profits then it can? am i wrong? @ellaismer since you run it. Im not saying im for it or against it but its an idea.
[11:52 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: This essentially was your idea to use the dev profits it doesn't need to be a constant thing since the coming CON fund, but if you feel some people deserve a incentive you should be able to without doing a vote/scheme or asking.
[11:52 PM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Only issue is deciding what you want to give as when it comes down to it you are the gatekeeper to ELLA. @ellaismer
[11:54 PM] jal3inc: This is my second meeting. I asked to join dev team last week. My decision for joining has nothing to do with compensation. Not against it in the future as the project keeps growing and maturing. My goal is help where ever I can. IMO I don’t think anyone will ever agree on a payout system how everything is currently in place and once again IMO that shouldn’t be top priority. Is the project at risk of losing any devs if they don’t get paid? I feel there should be some type of structured project management system in place before anything. Once again I joined last week and I have no idea where any of my abilities are best suited. I feel we should have some type of platform that the community lays out current on going projects where tasks can be tracked and or assigned all by priority and so on. That would allow continuing growth and clearer project direction. From there then possibly consider incentives/pay.
[11:54 PM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io As said before, we're essentially building an open source culture. The problem here is that a) everyone gets paid in a fair way is better than b) everyone works for free as hobbies, and that is better than c) only several "chosen" people gets paid.
[11:56 PM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: for the moment and apart of all the things around that payments I would like to have a walletid to spread half of the minerpool community funding into it ... this wallet should be used only for the devs who are working very much into the project without beeing paid for it at the moment without beeing measured to the dev speed or upvoted in a fancy manner(edited)
[11:56 PM] osoese: @jal3inc I would like to see an onramp process for new devs where someone like yourself can be pointed to a set of instructions that says "this is our coding style requirements"  and this is who you ask for questions
[11:57 PM] ellaismer: @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET I think that would be a good idea. It at least solves our immediate issue.
[11:57 PM] osoese: @here even pay or no pay I am gong to continue working on original dev work for ella and will support the code
February 25, 2018
[12:02 AM] IaMaBeAsT: I am really curious by the meaning of option a) everyone gets paid in a fair way. The term fair may mean different to people. When I think of fair I personally think the people that have been hard at work on the project( this including coding and promoting and just be a big part of the ella community) should be paid more than the typical everyone in my opinion. How do we determine what is really fair? That is the root question I really see.
ellahaze2
[12:02 AM] Rippthrough: You can't really, because it's too complex to apply arbitrary rules to
[12:03 AM] CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET: @ellaismer I do understand your vision of a bunch of star developers too, but that's like the nasa vision of a mars mission while even the money is missing to go to the moon again
ellamoon2
[12:03 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer FAIR is a Fairytale, Life is about what is JUST!
[12:03 AM] Rippthrough: You could have a small even share to everyone who has contributed that month and then perhaps either a randomised bonus to one or two people out of a hat, or a community vote. Problem with the latter is the community only see's the front end and not any vital core work
[12:04 AM] Rippthrough: And obviously, then how you define a contribution that month comes in.(edited)
[12:04 AM] ellaismer: @osoese My concern is just that "closed" schemes are not sustainable. It frightens off anyone who's not in this scheme. A large group of people might only individually contribute a small amount of code, but they sum up to a lot. We cannot keep those people here using a "closed" scheme. Also it frightens off new devs.(edited)
[12:05 AM] osoese: @ellaismer honestly I think we are saying the same thing but in different ways
[12:05 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: A tier based pay that can be increased/reduced by carbonvote! @ellaismer
[12:06 AM] ellaismer: @IaMaBeAsT I agree that CarbonVote is not entirely fair. However, my point is that it at least gets us somewhere, and that scheme is at least "open".
[12:06 AM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io Sounds interesting. Can you explain?
[12:06 AM] osoese: @ellaismer I support documentation and guidance for any production code so that future devs can pick up and work on it and so ella actually develops its own face in the world of crypto separating itself from eth and etc and the rest that's all
[12:07 AM] LetEpsilonBe: Bug report: https://ellaism.github.io/ellawallet/ links to https://trezor.io/?a=myetherwallet.com guessing not the right refereal link?
MyEllaWallet · Your Key to Ethereum
MyEllaWallet is a free, open-source, client-side interface for generating Ethereum wallets & interacting with the blockchain easily & securely. Double-check the URL ( ellaism.github.io/ellawallet ) before unlocking your wallet.
TREZOR Bitcoin Wallet | The original and most secure hardware wallet.
TREZOR is more than just a bulletproof bitcoin wallet. TREZOR is also a security device for passwords, accounts and emails.

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[12:07 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: New devs start at X amount and after Y time a vote can be cast to either reduce/increase/continue
[12:08 AM] ellaismer: @osoese I understand documentation is our current issue, but it's not my main point for the previous discussion. Paying only several people just frighten off new people from joining, if it is closed...
[12:09 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: I think my idea might be the most suitable sofar
[12:11 AM] osoese: @ellaismer perhaps we need to go through a week trying it one way or another and then reconvene? I think there should be a general requirement that if you get paid you attended the meetings and contribute to the community also like @IaMaBeAsT said
[12:11 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: which was sorta the idea for the contibutor system/fund
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[12:11 AM] ellaismer: I want to hear about how relatively newcomers in this community like this. For example from @jal3inc
[12:12 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: A community performance review/reward system.
[12:12 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @everyone CALL FOR INPUT
[12:13 AM] IaMaBeAsT: at what point are we at the "right" amount of people? Has anyone really seen new people scared off from working on this project or being apart of the ella commuity?(this is excluding payment reason) mainly just people wanting to jump on the ella train
[12:14 AM] ellaismer: @IaMaBeAsT You won't know about them. I personally have experience of those communities. People just leave without any notice if they don't like something. And gradually everything becomes more and more silent.
[12:14 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: I can name a few but out of respect i won't
[12:16 AM] CryptoMiner: i think we should all make money
[12:16 AM] CryptoMiner: all in favor say something
[12:16 AM] CryJax: Don't want to be a butthead here but I am trying to jump on the block chain development train, i'm kind of lost so if anyone can guide me I'd be happy to contribute to Ella once I can.
[12:16 AM] CryptoMiner: thats 1(edited)
[12:19 AM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io I suggest we just use some form of "cooling" or "gravity" algorithm. Like how Hacker News' ranking algorithm works. Except that carbon coins can repeatably vote every month/week.
[12:19 AM] CryptoMiner: thats 2
[12:20 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer you have better knowledge of those thing so im fine with taking your lead on it but i think the idea is solid
[12:20 AM] CryptoMiner: thats 3
[12:20 AM] CryptoMiner: where my money at
[12:20 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Cruising for a bruising @CryptoMiner
[12:20 AM] CryptoMiner: rip
[12:21 AM] Count Cryptula: My 2 cents - we absolutely need to pay our devs or at some point we will not have any doing any serious work. Donation of time is great but not sustainable. We need to pay and to me it is just a matter of how and how much. I like @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io  idea. Nothing will be perfect, so we should try something maybe tied or with weekly input; and then make improvements as we go along. A regular payment goes a long way to help the stability of those doing the work, and it can always be changed and improved as we go along. I am in favor of trying something that is immediate - not waiting more weeks to talk. We need constant and serious improvements for ELLA to be competitive with other crypto or it will die on the vine. Payments will be open and everyone will be able to see who is being paid for what. If there are issues, we will be able to discuss it anytime we want.
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[12:21 AM] osoese: @ellaismer then also I would say good teams develop around strong leadership and loyalty participation and perseverance are things that can be rewarded and acknowledged - time will tell if our approach is successful because good devs will roll out code, support it for the community, and remain an active part of the team
[12:22 AM] IaMaBeAsT: @ellaismer Can we implement a way of tracking the people that we wont notice? Maybe it is a role that community managers(or someone else) can help engage with devs? Or something of a check in system. This could then funnel into a better way to update new members on dev work and the current devs? Just a concerning thought to think most community members will never notice people leaving. Makes me wonder why those members would stay then :frowning:
[12:23 AM] ellaismer: Okay I'll try to design one. One thing to notice is that you usually only "upvote", and if nobody upvote you in the next month your rank might go down. I'll try to make it so that if someone stays in the community for a really long time, "cooling" is slow as long as there're still people voting. @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io Sounds like something acceptable?
[12:24 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Yup longtime devs get like a handicap of sorts
ellahaze1
[12:24 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: for lack of a better term lol
[12:27 AM] osoese: 1.5 hrs on payments....can we move on to dev topics?(edited)
[12:29 AM] ellaismer: Okay so at least we have some ideas right now. I think we all need some time to think about this and continue. If it works, we might get a draft version of onchain donation goverance system. In the mean time, I want to discuss how we'd like to carry out this: do we want this to be from Contributor Fund? Or a separate fund? Or just from Dev Pool or another mining pool?
[12:30 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Contributor fund as it wont interfere with current structure and fits
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[12:30 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: so that needs setting up first
[12:31 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: My pool will be a pool that funds that like the dev and chris's
[12:32 AM] jal3inc: @ellaismer  to answer your question from earlier. From  a financial stand point i feel paying anyone would bring problems. Money is a subject that everyone rarely agrees on  in life.  Id be more for investing any earnings back into the projects itself for more growth or even donating it be a good cause. Not only will it do good for others but will also bring positive publicity to the project.  I am a full time dev already (day job). I am not here for money. I learned about ELLA due to mining. Which I then set out to learn more about the organization and project.
[12:33 AM] ellaismer: Okay then. @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io I'm thinking about taking some time to develop Contributor Fund into an upgradable contract. The tier idea you proposed actually work with pure smart contracts. So initially we have 6 multisig signers, and then you six can vote and "upgrade" the multisig wallet to a pure smart contract that pays devs according to the tier rules. Still we can always upgrade it as long as we write the rules in the contract in advance.
[12:34 AM] ellaismer: Don't know whether you like this. But this would be up to you six signers.
[12:34 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: yup i have the last signers username just now so go ahead ill update the github with it
[12:37 AM] ellaismer: @jal3inc Yeah I understand that. To be honest, we have postponed the money issue for a really long time, but it recently hits us because we have devs working full-time already. Keeping an open source culture is really important for Ellaism and if you have any good ideas, please let everyone know.
[12:38 AM] Towd: @jal3inc I think for people new who may be just learning or who are only making small contributions pro bono work is fine.  But for others (especially experienced contributors), some kind of reward system is a way for the community to show thanks for helping the project.  And it encourages contributors to continue to contribute.
ellahaze1
[12:39 AM] ellaismer: Okay I think we'd need to postpone the reward system discussion for later. There're something to be worked out, for sure.
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[12:44 AM] Count Cryptula: Can we put a deadline on having a trial system for payment? Otherwise it will just keep being postponed. We will never have 100% agreement with a large community, and remember - we are talking about funds that have been donated by the community already for these purposes and we are not even spending the funds donated on anything right now anyway
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[12:47 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: ill have work you for community signers soon enough :wink:
[12:49 AM] ellaismer: @Count Cryptula We can have a simple CarbonVote trial, and then gradually move to @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io's tier ideas. We can use Dev Pool profits for this. But to prevent abuse I'll need to have two rules: a) sponsors of any devs cannot vote, and b) devs that profits from other pools cannot join the scheme.
Eventually I want to make Dev Pool a decentralized mining pool. We have a PoS sidechain to keep the reward records and a coinbase contract for distributing the rewards. But this might take months/years.

Does this sound okay?(edited)
[12:50 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Wont take years if we keep the fire hot :wink:
[12:51 AM] ellaismer: And by the way for making Dev Pool decentralized, I'll seek some outsider help (from our advisors) as this will be a big project.
[12:55 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer your rules are counter inclusive
[12:56 AM] osoese: @ellaismer minute you say "sponsors" can't vote or anyone at all can't vote it dilutes all the openness doesn't it? What does that mean?
[12:56 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: yes please specifiy
[12:56 AM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io It needs to prevent devs to vote themselves though... Otherwise it can be abused -- someone holding a large amount of money can just vote without doing any significant dev work.
[12:57 AM] osoese: ok - that would seem to be fair
[12:57 AM] ellaismer: @osoese @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io If you get paid from other sources, they cannot vote for you.
[12:59 AM] ellaismer: And by the way the profits Dev Pool gets this month is around 700 ELLA.
[12:59 AM] Count Cryptula: @ellaismer I am ok the system evolving, but I want to be clear that in my opinion, there is not much reason to wait to devise some basic system payments immediately. No one is going to get rich in the time it takes to make further improvements, and it puts some coins in the pockets of those doing the most work right now.  I think we have waited too long and collected too many donations that are still unspent, to ask those doing the work to wait for a small payment. If somone choses not to be paid - great, but not everyone has that luxury
[1:00 AM] ellaismer: (So weekly we might be able to distribute around 175 ELLA, if everything works well.)(edited)
[1:00 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Please sir can i have some more gruel :pray:
[1:00 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: hehehe
[1:00 AM] IaMaBeAsT: Moar
[1:00 AM] osoese: @ellaismer okay can we talk about dev stuff now?
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[1:01 AM] ellaismer: Okay okay....
[1:02 AM] osoese: On a side note 175 ella is like rich - I was happy with the little bit I just took from the twitter faucet lol
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[1:02 AM] ellaismer: Okay I'll get the scheme set up soon.
[1:03 AM] TBates76: sneaks in to back of room
[1:04 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: My things are simple
1. Graviex Exchange listing submitted
2. Coinomi Wallet integration emailing back and forth awaiting timeframe from them
3. Super top secret project coming all ill say is EGEM
4. Offered miketheminer 150 ella for his explorer work since its actually not bad. awaiting response.(edited)
[1:04 AM] ellaismer: @TBates76 Handing over the microphone to you! We just finished a long discussion about reward system.
[1:04 AM] johndis: who's winning?
[1:04 AM] TBates76: can we sum up that discussion?
[1:05 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer has contracts to write lol @TBates76
[1:07 AM] osoese: @mike_theminer just got online maybe he can jump in this discussion?
[1:07 AM] TBates76: moving to next topic...
[1:10 AM] ellaismer: We were proposing some form of reward system for devs. The initial one I ( @ellaismer ) proposed was to use CarbonVote divided by shares paying all profits from Dev Pool. We had some disagreement on that. @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET thinks that "some random community members" cannot decide who's in the scheme because many dev works are hidden, for example, like @osoese said, guiding new devs. My concern is that if we only pay a subset of contributors, the scheme would be "closed" and it hurts the culture and frightens off new devs. @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io proposed a tier-based system which we use "cooling" and "gravity" algorithm to decide "ranks" and then distribute the fund. So in the end, we decided to use the Dev Pool profits, initially based on a CarbonVote share system, and then gradually move to the tier-based system.
[1:10 AM] ellaismer: @TBates76 Yeah move to next topic...
[1:11 AM] cryptochart: !rsvp join
[1:11 AM] BOTRSVPBot: @cryptochart You have RSVPed to Weekly General Development Meeting on Saturday (24 Feb) 4pm UTC. Remember to be there!
[1:11 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: I like beating dead horses but 2 hours get tiring hehehe
[1:12 AM] TBates76: one topic I would like to cover is exchanges...
[1:14 AM] TBates76: there have been issues with the 2 exchanges Ellaism is currently listed on. (slow deposits/withdraws.) I know the exchanges has had impressive growth, however the response to that has hurt Ellaism and its value.
[1:14 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: I have applied to Graviex https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2064833
[1:15 AM] TBates76: I know there has been other applications.... we need to keep track of that
[1:15 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: make a section in meta
[1:15 AM] TBates76: I can make a new topic in github meta for tracking
[1:15 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: with a check up on list
[1:16 AM] Count Cryptula: we will be listed on Victorium exchange when it opens in 30 days or so
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[1:16 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Coinomi integration will bring exposure aswell
ellahaze1
[1:18 AM] TBates76: okay I will get that completed after the meeting..
[1:18 AM] osoese: HitBTC and Bittrex are going to look at the ellaism reddit and see a ghost town so I wouldn't bother until we have a meaningful community going on there(edited)
[1:19 AM] osoese: can we do a reddit faucet?
[1:19 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Tried to get a Mining monitor for our pools but they choose to not respond to my emails maybe @CHRlS - MINERPOOL.NET can assist on this.
[1:19 AM] ellaismer: And we also need reddit moderators. If you have experience in that, please just let me know.
[1:20 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: i think thats gonna be part of the contributor system @ellaismer
[1:20 AM] osoese: @ellaismer I sent you a pm on reddit weeks ago asking to be a mod
[1:21 AM] ellaismer: Ooops. I'll add you now. Sorry
[1:21 AM] osoese: lol all good
[1:22 AM] osoese: @MakeMoneyOz - ellaismpool.com and I are still working on that stellar thing but we ran into issues
[1:22 AM] osoese: the stellar DEX are starting to pop up everywhere
[1:24 AM] TBates76: I am sorry I dont have a topic list for today...
[1:24 AM] TBates76: Riddles I seen you had something...
[1:25 AM] osoese: OPAL/Ellagem Work
Secret Announcement
[1:25 AM] ellaismer: @osoese Is it still the geth problem? I still didn't see any issue on the go-ellaism repo. It might help if I can take a closer look.
[1:25 AM] ellaismer: Also if I missed any message please ping me again...
[1:26 AM] osoese: @ellaismer I will ping you again no problem
[1:26 AM] ellaismer: Okay thank you.
[1:26 AM] osoese: I think we can wrap that up with just a little trial and error on the ellaism.json genesis
[1:27 AM] osoese: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io is going to roll out the new Opal wallet alpha to github
[1:29 AM] TBates76: so is everything related to ellagem to be removed?
[1:29 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Ellagem will be retired and transitioned into OPAL/Ellagem 2.0
[1:29 AM] osoese: I got it to send offline tx, accept wallets, generate new wallets, and print pdf of new wallets for safe keeping and this is specifically just the meteor side right now - we have an electron wrapper that interacts with it too but that is being cleaned up - for now I am not saving private keys in the database but making users enter them for the tx - I do save a special dynamic seed phrase but we can modify things as we go forward
[1:30 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Ellagems aka EGEM, and that is all you get.
[1:30 AM] osoese: this Opal wallet is the same overall structure as what ellegem was electron meteor
[1:31 AM] osoese: Whats EGEM?
[1:31 AM] osoese: is that your secret project?
[1:31 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Shhhh
[1:31 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: lol
[1:32 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: i thought it was yours now i have no idea what's going on lol :wink:
[1:32 AM] Count Cryptula: such a tease @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io
[1:32 AM] osoese: well, if it is a secret project that answers a lot of the requests from the user community that Ive seen lately then it might be something I could be happy supporting - that's all I'm saying
[1:33 AM] osoese: Yeah - we have a small project extension to the Opal wallet called EGEM
[1:33 AM] osoese: more details coming out after we release the first alpha of Opal wallet
[1:34 AM] TBates76: super secret project?
[1:34 AM] osoese: that's it the EGEM thing
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[1:36 AM] TBates76: is there anything else which needs to be discussed?
[1:37 AM] jal3inc: Yea... Noobs beside visiting github repo...
[1:38 AM] jal3inc: general direction
[1:38 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Laying ground work for a open source community driven coin @jal3inc
[1:38 AM] osoese: @jal3inc just Pm me or Riddles and we will work with you
[1:39 AM] jal3inc: ok will do ty
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[1:40 AM] Count Cryptula: I have 2 quick topics - we have a lot of ELLA in the Community Fund - any ideas for some marketing or bounties?
I was thinking some type of contest for dapp or something like that on Ella platform maybe 1000 Ella to winner and reward for 2nd, 3rd place
Also there is  around 538 Ella in the old community address - I have not seen any new deposits, so it looks like all the pools have switched to new address. I will transfer the remaining funds over too
[1:42 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: thats what the funds for
[1:42 AM] TBates76: so long as the dapp does not slow down the chain (NO CRYPTOKITTIES) or like it
[1:43 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: fucking kitties
[1:43 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: lol
[1:43 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: or the new trading card anything lol
[1:43 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Original works only
[1:46 AM] TBates76: @Count Cryptula I agree that the community fund is growing and we can put it to use.
[1:46 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: Better used growing value then waiting for value to grow.
[1:47 AM] TBates76: Is there a way we can make a trading bot?
[1:47 AM] osoese: @TBates76 took the words out of my mouth
[1:48 AM] TBates76: I seen this on another discord where the coin was traded within and a community manager was set to be middleman
[1:49 AM] osoese: yeah PGC
[1:49 AM] osoese: he is helpful
[1:50 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: i argue the escrow needs to be automated
[1:50 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: like PGC
[1:50 AM] osoese: this is what I was going to look at... https://boostlog.io/@junp1234/how-to-write-a-discord-bot-in-python-5a8e73aca7e5b7008ae1da8b
[1:51 AM] Count Cryptula: I agree on automation - I would not be comfortable doing escrows for other people
[1:51 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer shared the go files for our current bots
[1:51 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @osoese
[1:51 AM] osoese: ok great I did not know that
[1:51 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: https://github.com/ellaism/bots
GitHub
ellaism/bots
Collection of bots used in the network. Mostly Discord bots.

[1:51 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: just today he did
[1:51 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: he/she whoever
[1:51 AM] osoese: lol
[1:52 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer im calling you IT until you announce a gender/sex
[1:52 AM] TBates76: Or just El
[1:53 AM] osoese: ok, do we need to have an escrow really? or just a trading order system on a smart contract
[1:53 AM] ellaismer: Okay...
[1:53 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: El-jeffee
[1:53 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: lol
[1:53 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: thats what i meant as a escrow @osoese
[1:54 AM] TBates76: smart contract will work.. just need to have someone execute it when needed?
[1:54 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: smart contract can have conditions both parties need to fulfill
[1:55 AM] osoese: if someone posts to a smart contract that they will sell ella for x coin and address (say eth for instance) at the current posted rate we can have someone execute the contact through the bot and send the appropriate coin to the receiving address - do it one pair at a time
[1:55 AM] ellaismer: @TBates76 Pure P2P would need BTC relay like thing. But we can make "stargate", where there's a bot controlling the fund and handle all escrow automatically.
[1:56 AM] TBates76: @ellaismer that would be awesome
[1:56 AM] jal3inc: Trading bot?....  Down my alley... I have been experimenting for a few months now... Have something thats finally been profitable. Its Ruby based. Have been working on a front end for it.

ellahaze2
[1:56 AM] ellaismer: @jal3inc I think it's better called "exchange bot" for what we're currently discussing. But thanks for the info!
[1:57 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: lol
[1:57 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: yea thats a bitcoin bot @jal3inc
[1:57 AM] osoese: @jal3inc does that then call an api to an exchange?
[1:57 AM] osoese: we want to skip the exchange and peer to peer(edited)
[1:58 AM] ellaismer: We actually don't need to rely on any API. It is just volume based -- we have small amount of initial reserve and then the bot determines the price automatically.
[1:58 AM] jal3inc: yea it does cryptopia and poloniex. The front end im building is off the open source Peatio project. End goal purchase a coin I made to fund the bot.
[1:59 AM] osoese: @ellaismer true but for price interaction I recommend we use the same api embedded in mist and now opal
[1:59 AM] ellaismer: I think we discussed this in the last meeting. And still, I can try to get a prototype of the bot but cannot yet promise anything....
[1:59 AM] ellaismer: @osoese For the exchange bot?
[1:59 AM] jal3inc:

[1:59 AM] jal3inc: Gotcha ok well if there is anything i can do to help with that I am interested
[2:00 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: thats graviex UI @jal3inc
[2:00 AM] osoese: @ellaismer yeah for exchange bot it depends how you do it but there should be a current price check before exchange
[2:01 AM] osoese: https://min-api.cryptocompare.com/data/price?fsym=ELLA&tsyms=BTC,USD,EUR,ETH
[2:02 AM] Count Cryptula: for those not in Pegas discord - this is the exchange bot

[2:02 AM] ellaismer: Okay will take a look. But IMHO it will need to be determined by itself, otherwise the bot's wallet might run out of money.
[2:02 AM] jal3inc: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io  they must be based off of peatio then. https://github.com/peatio/peatio
GitHub
peatio/peatio
peatio - An open-source assets exchange.

[2:02 AM] osoese: @ellaismer that is the exact only issue I have with the PGC exchange bot
[2:02 AM] osoese: other than that it is great
[2:02 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: https://graviex.net/markets/mixbtc
[2:03 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @jal3inc yup looks that way
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[2:04 AM] osoese: @ellaismer @Count Cryptula we can make it a smart contract where seller posts ella to contract with certain rules and purchaser executes contract by sending coin that way no escrow other than by seller - and if coded appropriately seller can cancel
[2:04 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: we can make our own ellaism exchange with that github repo...
[2:04 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: lol
[2:05 AM] osoese: ok
[2:05 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: im gonna setup a test system
[2:05 AM] osoese: well I am game to work on this too
[2:05 AM] TBates76: Got to step away for few mins...
[2:05 AM] osoese: my plan was to embed a trading exchange right into opal (and that is not the EGEM surprise)
[2:05 AM] ellaismer: :thumbsup: That would be cool if some of you can get that!
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ellahaze2
[2:06 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @ellaismer i plan on it i have server space
[2:06 AM] osoese: @jal3inc will be in touch
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[2:07 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: ill have a test exchange up ina couple days to play with
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[2:07 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: All good to fork it to org? @ellaismer
[2:09 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: forking lol
[2:09 AM] jal3inc: The Docs are horrible imo lol if you try out the peatio exchange lmk when you run into issues. I promise there is a boat load of trickery. The project is open source but the end game is for you to hire them to setup.
[2:09 AM] ellaismer: @Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io Yes of course!
[2:09 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: not this time we have a smart enough team
[2:10 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: @jal3inc
[2:10 AM] jal3inc: haha
[2:11 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: ive been installing vague helpfiles for years
[2:13 AM] ellaismer: Everyone the meeting has been 3 hours. Does anyone have anything else to discuss? If not, let's close it!
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[2:14 AM] Riddlez666 ツ ☠ - pool.ellaism.io: i say we are into overflow for sure
[2:14 AM] osoese: I'm done thanks!
[2:15 AM] osoese: !rsvp join
[2:15 AM] ellaismer: @jal3inc If you have anything else please feel free to post in #development or #general at any time. :smiley: Meeting is over but we're still here.
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[2:15 AM] BOTRSVPBot: @osoese You have already RSVPed!
[2:15 AM] ellaismer: !rsvp clear