TTYD #timing-discussion archive

Sjorec - 12/03/2017
I took the responses and compiled them into a google doc because I wanted to encourage discussion rather than just let people read a chart. The voting was basically 50/50 and included several non-runners. The responses in the google doc are those from runners only. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xHa8KtlrOlTYzJRVGg_Dr80Jwu3yVdec6Dwvsy8VyD8/edit?usp=sharing
Sjorec pinned a message to this channel. See all the pins.12/03/2017
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
i'll start. the only compelling argument for "before credits" i see is just simply there is no gameplay in credits, which i get. But, I don't think we should discourage post-game activity...there is no reason why post-game should NOT be allowed. And to have runs that do post game, and no post game, ending on "the end" makes much more sense.

That's the biggest reason to me, if post-game wasn't a thing (like in PM), i would be wondering why it wasn't changed to last-input timing awhile ago.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
The only time post-game is ever faster is when you have ambiguous rules
So really it's not much of a factor
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it's a factor for any category besides the any%s
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
I mean, the one time it was faster I remember no one wanting to do it lol
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
One of the requirements in 100% is game completion. You could argue that if you reverted somewhere in postgame, the game wouldn't be completed anymore.
bonecrusher1022 - 12/03/2017
No point in me getting involved cause of not being part of TTYD but what were the numbers with ONLY runners? You said it was 50/50 including non-runners but the text responses make it seem more people voted to keep it the same.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Also true sjorec
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
my run with hundo has post game right now lol

but that's not even the point, i'm talking about possible future things too.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Ambiguous rules make post-game complicated(edited)
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Not everyone who voted left a text response, bone
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it's call post-game for a reason. it's after you completed it
bonecrusher1022 - 12/03/2017
I know but can't you still see what they picked?
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
But if you revert, the game completion goes away
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Bone it's 5 to 4, seems like close to 50%
For runners
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it's not reverting though
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
You do
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it's continueing. ur not loading a previous save
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
For ACS you had to
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
? i'm confused
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Yes, but I don't want discussion to just end with "read a chart." Community argument is healthy when it doesn't get out of hand.(edited)
ACS postgame would require reverting
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Name something that could be faster for 100% in postgame and I'll understand
bonecrusher1022 - 12/03/2017
Anyway thanks for the response I'll leave you to your discussion. No I didn't vote if anyone cares lol
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
But nothing is going to save as much time as the credits and bit afterward take
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
lol, my run. tattles, possible other little things

and oh you mean like hitting a sequence to revert back? k i see what you mean now
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Tattles don't save 5 minutes
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
no. they save time with respect to ending at "the end". which, if you allow post-game, makes sense to me. cuz then runs with post game would have a 5min section that is not included in other runs...which seems weird
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
That's the cost of doing post-game
Changing how much it costs doesn't really change anything
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
but it shouldn't cost that much, that's the point. it should be after "the end" or getting really anal i guess after the save.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Honestly you can argue about the pros and cons of changing or not changing, but in the end it's just moving a cutoff point
It's not that big of a change
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
imo they just go together. allowing post game, to me, means timing up to the point where post game would really start. so technically after the final save.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Then that still isn't consistent with current timing lol
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
There's precedent for this. Banjo-Tooie does 100% in a post-game state, but any% runs don't time credits.
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
i know. but there was no option for final save xD and that would be kinda dumb, "the end" is close enough.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
So is the fadeout to the credits :OpieOP:
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
that was something else i thought of, timing any% differently
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Credits timing is a tradition of the past for most games. And getting rid of postgame standardizes timing.
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
but assumed no one would want that.
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
@Almo Tagging you because you said you wanted to be here when the poll closed
Almo - 12/03/2017
thanks
so as far as reverting the game goes, i think 100% might optimally end on the trash can, which doesn't revert it because the last tattle is shadow queen (maybe bonetail?) which isn't a reverting sequence so that won't necessarily apply
for something like All Crystal Stars, sure, maybe with the garnet star, but then it feels kind of nitpicky
i do like the idea of consistency across the categories but it is not necessary. for example odyssey any% ends when you shoot out of the lightning rod thing, but in Darker Side, it's when you collect moon 503
i'm sure plenty of other games have varying ending times as well
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Well those categories actually require postgame. The content isn't accessible before beating it.
Almo - 12/03/2017
but if it's around a 50/50 split, i think keeping it is the best option because why go through the hassle if half the people would rather keep it? if a larger majority wanted to change i think it would make sense but i don't see a reason to make a change to favor one half of people over the other
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
^
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Well, the discussion channel is suppose to allow people to argue their points and change the minds of others
And then there'll be a vote
Almo - 12/03/2017
ok
the only thing i will say
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Personally, I don't care too much about 100% right now. I just think it's silly that any% categories time out a 5 minute no input cutscene to end the run
Almo - 12/03/2017
is if we change the timing, please just make it last input. none of this fadeout/credits music starting nonsense lol
since it would be so easy to frame count from file select to the last star closing
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
It's extremely easy to time the circle sweep too
First black frame
Almo - 12/03/2017
i guess so
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
After research, it's called an iris wipe OpieOP
Superstar Saga final input timing is already starting to make me mad. I split with my foot in my run earlier.
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
foot pedal hype(edited)
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
The first black frame would make things easier if we found something like a credit warp
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
^
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Just saying lol
ZanSav - 12/03/2017
im late to the party
where do we sit
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
On the fence
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
^ As usual :smile:
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Feel free to dangle your legs over whatever side you want
red2go - 12/03/2017
I feel finishing 100% on trash can just isn't as clean of an ending if it came to it
like if your in a marathon setting, "the end" shows up and you gotta tell them to wait till you get to this trash can and mash a
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
It's not really about what looks nice. It's about what's faster
red2go - 12/03/2017
if it ended on iris wipe, this is a non issue
like, unless you can save 5 mins by doing stuff in post game
no one runs hundo anyways
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
Ya but what I said about that is just, if post game is allowed timings should match up where post game starts. Which would be at the end credits.
More I think about it, the more I'm kinda liking timing any% to Iris wipe or w.e, and other categories to the end, or further if post game.
red2go - 12/03/2017
Allowing post game is segregating people without memory cards OpieOP(edited)
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
Plz red, this discussion is serious!
red2go - 12/03/2017
I'm all for having different timings for each catagory
the definitions of each catagory lends to this
If the catagory specifies that you have to collect extra things as well as beat shadow queen, then collecting the extra things needs to be checked
which can be done conviently in post game
if you don't need to check for anything then you shouldn't have to wait
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
I think that's more just to make verification easier....not really what we are talking about.
red2go - 12/03/2017
checked by the player as well I mean
you can go get things you missed
The game has post game, so it should be usable, but you just never need to use post game in any%
so waiting just feels pointless
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
For any%, agreed
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
I mean, there are barely any runs in relation to Any%(edited)
So changing it for JP and English would be good enough for me lol
Obviously it doesn't really affect me so it's no big deal, just leaning toward the more sensible option
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
Can't BELIEVE my response wasn't included despite the fact I hold multiple IL world records, smh
I think it's a lot of work for something that has very little benefit, if any, and is confusing/unnecessary
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
lol
It's not a lot of work
You subtract a constant from every run
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
325 runs
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
325 simple math problems
Takes a few hours tops
I bet you've done more work writing one of your video descriptions :Kappa:
Almo - 12/03/2017
not exactly solid, if people are off by milliseconds on the current ending time, you wouldn't just subtract that amount for every run or the exact frame the fadeout is on might result in some times that are 1s inaccurate since we separate times by seconds
if you time at fadeout it's like 9s later than last input so waiting 9 seconds with no input is the same as 5 minutes :Kappa:
Cine - 12/03/2017
On vyns argument- it wouldnt be a big deal IMO to make an exception to post credit routing if the need arises
However it currently is an irrelevant argument because afaik no routes use postgame
No optimal ones anyway
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
Actually hundo does. If timing is at the end, post game stuff is faster.
Cine - 12/03/2017
Then we just make an exception for hundo
Lots of games have that
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
Ya I would be fine with that, that's what I mentioned last night. But I still think it's unnecessary like tall said.
Cine - 12/03/2017
The only reason we time credits to begin with is because its what the first guy did
Then almo followed suit and everyone just went with it
Theres no logistical reason we time credits
And honestly it makes no sense to time essentially a cutscene with nothing after it(edited)
I noticed a lot of responses say "removing them wont change anything so why bother"
But if theyre irrelevant why have them at all
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
I sound redundant now, but there is something after it. Post-Game. It's part of the game, and if it's used in the route, times that don't use it shouldn't get 5mins of free time save.
Cine - 12/03/2017
Thats like saying jp shouldnt be allowed because it saves 2 minutes from text
Different categories shouldnt be compared
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
How is it like that? The JP game is like that....if JP didn't have credits, it would also save 5mins. But they all have credits(edited)
And I'm.not. Comparing categories at all. I'm talking about runs that use Post-Game or not in the same category.
Cine - 12/03/2017
Youre saying that it wouldnt be fair that categories that use post game lose a free time save over ones that dont if im not mistaken?
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
No. I'm saying, in the same category, it wouldn't make sense to time before credits for games that don't use Post-Game. And to include credits in ones that do. If post game is allowed, the end timing should match up where post game starts. Which would be "the end"/last save. That just makes sense to me.
For categories that will def never use post game, aka any%, it's fine just to end timing before credits.
Cine - 12/03/2017
So youre saying you should have to actually watch credits twice in post game routes
Pretty sure there was a route that ended on collecting the last star from sanctum
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
:S no, when did I say that lol. You would end time whenever you complete the things in post game. Like for hundo it's tattles
Cine - 12/03/2017
So what youre suggesting already has been void in the past
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
You can't go kill SQ twice, that's not even possible
Cine - 12/03/2017
It is with reverts
But im confused
It seems like youre saying there should be a consistent end time
But then youre saying there wouldnt be
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
I don't think you can still. But that's besides the point.

I'm saying, for any% end timing before credits is fine. Post game is never used, you essentially stop playing at Iris wipe.

But, for hundo for example, since post game is a thing, a route that doesn't use post game shouldn't have a 5min gap. Timing should end where post game begins (or close enough to it). I.e. on "the end", or in post game itself.
Put another way, the "cost"of doing post game shouldn't be credits + actually post game play. Because credits is not post game.(edited)
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
I think it's a little silly to justify credits timing to accommodate for a category that hardly anyone plays
Every other category just ends with a big cutscene because of it where the only requirement is leaving the console plugged in
Cine - 12/03/2017
Power surge during credits has been a meme but its kinda an underlying scary possibility
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it doesn't have to, we could end any% differently than others.

I think it's silly to base the timing of a category, based on another category.
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
In addition, I don't even think everyone's decided on proper postgame endpoints for every item in 100%, and adding more arbitrary timing cutoffs just makes a mess out of stuff if we find an unintended way of picking up an item
Cine - 12/03/2017
Out of curiosity sjorec which side do you support
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it already is decided
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Pre-credits, Cine
What if we find a way to collect a star piece without the pickup animation?
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
What if we find a way to reach credits, while skipping the last text/the fade out?
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
then we have to deal with that lol. you could throw all the hypotheticals you want, it's irrelavent. Just because it may be "hard" to time, doesn't mean it shouldn't be timed to there.
Cine - 12/03/2017
Were timing to last input tall
So whatever last input was
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
People were saying not last input earlier
Cine - 12/03/2017
What were they saying
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
the iris wipe
Cine - 12/03/2017
The what
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
I still believe that if you revert the game during postgame the run should be invalid
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
when the screen closes to black with a circle.
Cine - 12/03/2017
Ah
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Because game completion is gone
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
Sjorec you could do that a week later though :thinking:
Cine - 12/03/2017
Well last input is kinda awkward
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
Unless you mean before getting everything
Cine - 12/03/2017
Sjorec- the rules dont say complete the game they say beat the game
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
As long as you picked up everything first, you're fine
Cine - 12/03/2017
Technically u still beat the game even if u revert
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
ya^ i don't really see the issue with that
Cine - 12/03/2017
Rules arent refering to the state of the game
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
again, that is another hypothetical. as it stands now no route is like that. so it doesn't really matter. if that comes to play, we deal with it.
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Fishing a 100% speedrun by softlocking the game shouldn't be a valid ending in my opinion
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
there's nothing in the rules saying the game has to be playable after you complete the objectives.
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
You already beat the game so there's no need to progress further
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
^
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Especially if I could put the game in the same state without beating it
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
i just can't help but see the credits as a cutscene. The issue is that this cutscene has no gameplay. So timing before it seems fine.

 But if post game is allowed, it gives it gameplay.

So timing before credits is just like giving runs a free cutscene skip.
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
I've got a crazy idea, so here me out
We start using pre-credits timing, and we rewrite the 100% definition to include troubles
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
you CRAZY
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
So postgame in 100% is no longer optional and we don't need to deal with different routes doing credits or not
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
we can't just change the rules to fit the timing you want...

and isn't there troubles that only become available post game?(edited)
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
There are 3 postgame tattles
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
troubles* ?
Really_Tall - 12/03/2017
Yeah
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Yeah yeah
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
sooo, what are you saying lol
a route with trouble would NEED post game
oh, i misunderstood
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
I feel like that's a compromise between "credits shouldn't be timed" and "postgame options are good"
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
I mean we could. But i don't like the idea of changing a definiton just to fix timing...is has to actually matter with the run itself.
what's changed that troubles are now required in hundo?
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Well, troubles are a pretty big optional part of the game. We could branch out from the "100% menu" definition to include more optional content.
LOAD MORE MESSAGES
Cine - 12/03/2017
:OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
So why should we make a route with the credits cutscene if it's slower
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
There's still unnecessary stuff to watch to enter postgame
If postgame was always required I'd understand, but if there's already a time penalty this changes nothing other than the amount
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
because it's unskipable. again, making the timing before credits doesn't magically stop credits from triggering. it would give non-post game submissions a 5min free timesave in my eyes. In comparision, that 100 i love you IS skipable if you do the triggers right and w.e.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
How is this not a bias toward postgame again :thinking:
Cine - 12/03/2017
name a situation where a non post game submission and a post game would be submitted to the same leaderboard for any reason other than runs being outdated
one HAS to be faster
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Also it's already like a 2 minute free time save or however long it takes to get back into gameplay after credits
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
because postgame is allowed. if it wasn't, or not even there like PM, it wouldn't be a problem haha. It's not that want postgame, it's just that it's there.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
So I guess we need to change the timing to later :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Just because it's there doesn't mean that it needs to be accomodated for in the timing
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
i dunno what you mean sg
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
If you want to do it, go ahead. It'd just be slower without credits
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
I don't think it says anywhere "You MUST enter post game no matter what"
Cine - 12/03/2017
I mean
The End warp can potentially happen
should we keep the end timing because it could exist at some point
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
you don't have to no. but entering postgame is allowed. and to me that means timing to end credits. Because with a postgame, the end of the game is right before postgame. Can't have like a section between game, postgame, that's what? purgatory? lol
Cine - 12/03/2017
I mean
youre just arguing semantics at this point
"well you can do this so we should keep timing the same to accomodate it"
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
it's all opinions.
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
then why do you not like our opinions? Are you only right? :OpieOP:
Cine - 12/03/2017
there is such thing as bad opinions
:OpieOP:
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
If it's all opinions then I say credits are postgame
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
why don't you like mine
alright
Cine - 12/03/2017
cause its founded on a bad basis
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
What I meant before was that there is always going to be a penalty for postgame
Changing where you hit the last split doesn't change that fact
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
ya there is, around 50s
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
The amount is irrelevant
If we timed to last input from the start you'd treat the larger penalty as normal
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
was just saying. well ya. but i would  still question why we don't include credits in the timing if post game is a thing. because of the same reasons. but that's just hypotheticals.
Cine - 12/03/2017
thats my main issue with your argument
your entire argument is based on hypotheticals
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
no...it's not. it's based on timing the whole game.
and of course, it's subjective on what that is. But I think it's including credits because postgame is a thing.
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
like, if we found a way to move a TTYD cutscene between epilogue and credits, would timing stop before ttyd cutscene? my answer is no, it's still part of the game. even if you don't do anything.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
How is postgame related to the definition of credits though?
Move a cutscene? :WutFace:
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
because it puts a line where the POST(after) the game is. So you end the game, right before postgame.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
But where would you say the end of a movie is?
No one says "I really liked that ending with all of the logos"
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
some movies have little clips between or after credits, is that not part of the movie?
it's just meta
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
But that's not the case here
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
Credits aren't the end of a movie. Credits are to show who made the movie and did certain jobs. Credits are after a movie ends(edited)
that's the same with TTYD
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
If there were a cutscene after the credits sure, but credits are generally not considered
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
Zill's the film guy OpieOP
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
^ lol
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
omg lol
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
what do you mean it's not the case? it is the case, you can continue ur ttyd movie after the credits lol
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
You're not actually doing anything you couldn't do before the credits though
Troubles are literally the only thing added in terms of gameplay
and those aren't required
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
SG even thepumpkingeek agrees with me :OpieOP:
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
When's he getting in on this :Kappa:
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
He's not a gamer lol
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
We've gotta do whatever Zill's dad says
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
^
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
^
lol
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
He'll carve this run like he does his pumpkins
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
Let's ask evanDad
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Any non-gamer would probably agree just bc they would look at it from the movie perspective
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
yea I know this was just for the meme
Sjorec if I go to GDQ I'll let you meet pumpkingeek :OpieOP:
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
my point can basically boil down to. Where is the end of the game? Before postgame. Where is before postgame? imo, on the last save. so timing ends there. "the end" is close enough cuz changing it to last save is not gonna happen haha
Evan44 - 12/03/2017
I asked my dad, and he said "enough of these fucking video games"
Vyn^
Zaphkiel - 12/03/2017
rip
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
classic evanDad
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
evanDad votes for less gameplay :PogChamp:
Before credits it is :Kappa:
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
Let's listen to pumpkingeek
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
We'll just delete the leaderboard because evanDad said so
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
LOL
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
^
LOL
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Timing ends NOWHERE
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
You know what
let's remove video games
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
timing ends on system bootup, cuz evanDad turns it off
Evan44 - 12/03/2017
Im chuckling
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Wouldn't that mean it ends when it shuts down
Unless Evan never even gets to the point of turning it on
Evan44 - 12/03/2017
Likely
Vynneve - 12/03/2017
:thinking:
yes
on system bootoff xD
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
dad rng
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
"Dad, can you come turn off my console for me!?"
Sjorec - 12/03/2017
evanDad https://youtu.be/0LJWHadL3KE
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017
LOL
LOL
SolidifiedGaming - 12/03/2017
Time to add back the TRE emote
Evan44 - 12/03/2017
Thats what he wants to do
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/03/2017

Cine - 12/03/2017
we should start timing from reset tbh
also no webcams
and u can only play on a jp gamecube
December 4, 2017
Muz - 12/04/2017
this was a fucking amazing discussion
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
what do you mean?
just like, productive?
Muz - 12/04/2017
just funny
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
Ah, gotcha haha
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
Leave it to the TTYD runners to meme up the serious discussion channel OpieOP
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/04/2017
I'll take the blame
I mentioned thepumpkingeek
red2go - 12/04/2017
I'm 100% down for asking and following to a T what Yoshi zilla's dad says
This would be the greatest thing to ever happen in speed running
especially having to explain to later runners
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
LOL
red2go - 12/04/2017
This would generate so much publicity(edited)
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
"Why do you guys time to this point?"
"Because Pumpkin Geek said so"
red2go - 12/04/2017
every option presented has made someone angry, this is the only fair way
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/04/2017
Okay so from what I heard doing the tattles in post game saves around a minute or so for 100%. So why go into post game when you can save 4 minutes from cutting out the credits? There's no reason to have them for any category.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Bc the argument is it's not a "real" time save if its cut out(edited)
Cine - 12/04/2017
Its not meant to be a time save
Just removing pointless stuff
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
ya, that's where we differ. you don't think it's part of the game, but i do.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
We're not saying it isn't part of the game
We're saying it's an irrelevant part of the game
Like how everything before starting the file is irrelevant
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
before the save file literally isn't in the game. it's before you create the game file. credits is..you can save after. it's boring and no input, just like ttyd cutscenes or blimp cutscene, but it's there.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Literally arguing that something on the disk isn't in the game smh(edited)
Even SM64 doesn't time after last input and that game times from reset
Most of these arguments are subjective so really having 5 whole minutes of nothing just seems stupid to me
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
it's on the game disk, but it's part of the actual gameplay, it's just the thing to load save files.

no shit it's subjective lol, theres no speedrunning rules, the community decides on them.
well having 30s of nothing on ttyd cutscenes just seems stupid to me, can we cut that time off?
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
You can't compare a cutscene in between 2 sections of gameplay to one after completion
That's just pointless
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
same with the section of credits between game and postgame :joy: it's a big cutscene inbetween two sections of gameplay.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
That's not required gameplay
We've been over this
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
if ur going postgame, it is required. That's the different in opinion; so we should just stop. We said our points, there's nothing new to bring up.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
"Let's time the cutscene after Bowser in SM64 in case collecting stars after that is faster"
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
Postgame's optional though
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Sounds stupid right?
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
If the route does postgame, then time credits
If the route doesn't do postgame, stop time before credits
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
^
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
Including credits in both timings doesn't make it "fair" for postgame routes. It's just a slower route
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
yes i know that's what you guys want haha, it's not going to suddenly make me agree xD. I disagree, i view credits as part of the game since you can continue gameplay after. And i'm not farmiliar enough with sm64 to comment on that
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
Mario Galaxy 2 120 Star watches the credits in the middle of the run because there's required postgame content in that category. The credits play again after the run is over (you need to beat the last level again), but they're not timed.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Them being part of the game and part of the run are 2 different things
Muz - 12/04/2017
Why would you want to continue gameplay after when it would literally be faster to just do it before and not time credits? There's nothing in postgame that you can't do before credits
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Like how troubles are in the game but never completed in 100%
Cine - 12/04/2017
troubles
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
Are you saying it's not timed in the first time? Or the secknd
Cine - 12/04/2017
Just asking, is vyn the only one against removing credits thus far
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
It's timed the first time because you need to do postgame, but it's not timed the second time
In any%, it's not timed at all because routes of that category don't visit postgame
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
Ya, so that would be the same as my timing lol, (minus triggering credits again). You time it during the run, because it's there in the middle when you do Post-Game.

That's exactly how I want to do the timing sjorec
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
Then just don't visit postgame in 100% and skip the credits timing
If the SMG2 guys found a way to route 120 Star without postgame, I'm sure they'd do that and then just not time credits
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
You need to visit postgame, you time credits
You don't need to, you stop
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
But they're required, so they needed to be timed because there's necessary gameplay after
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
Again, I view it as part of the game. Normally it's fine to ignore it because there's nothing after. But with Post-Game there is.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
What makes it part of the game?
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
But if you route around postgame, then why time the credits to go there?
Cine - 12/04/2017
"Im not biased towards post game routes"- vyn 2017
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Other than "we time it in the run"
Muz - 12/04/2017
but the postgame isn't even required vyn
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Bc we all know that was bc of one guy's opinion years ago
Muz - 12/04/2017
you can just do it before credits and not have to sit through the 5 minutes
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
If you can beat the game from start to finish with less time between first and last inputs, why not do that?
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
^
Muz - 12/04/2017
Everything required in 100% can be done without having to continue gameplay after the credits, so why have the extra 5 minutes?
PistonMiner - 12/04/2017
Here's my take on this even though I have like no experience at all. The category is 100%, is it not? So the time should end when the requirements are filled. So, end the run at credits if you have everything you need, don't otherwise. (I'm sure I've missed many important aspects of this discussion)
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
Opinion. I realize it's not popular haha.

And I'm not, I never even wanted to do Post-Game stuff.

I'm gonna stop now cuz there's too many people ganging up, and this is just going in circles.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
Piston for you does "at credits" mean when they start or when they end lol
Muz - 12/04/2017
Nobody is ganging up
Cine - 12/04/2017
People explaining why they disagree = ganging up
:thinking:
PistonMiner - 12/04/2017
Start of credits @SolidifiedGaming
Muz - 12/04/2017
We're sharing our opinions just like you(edited)
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
:ok_hand::skin-tone-1:
Muz - 12/04/2017
this is not a personal attack lol
Evan44 - 12/04/2017
It was just his way of saying there's too many opinions to respond to at once
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/04/2017
None of this is a personal attack to you. We just think if you can do everything for 100% without entering post game there's no reason to time at the end of credits(edited)
It'll all opinions and more people may have a different opinion than others
Vynneve - 12/04/2017
^ @Evan44
there's just nothing more to say, we are going in circles.
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
I see it as more of an ellipse :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
I see it as more of an iris wipe
SolidifiedGaming - 12/04/2017
lol
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/04/2017
So what now
Have we decided :P
Sjorec - 12/04/2017
This channel's going to be open all week, then I'll post a poll at the end
December 5, 2017
Rain - 12/05/2017
stop timing after last input
Cine - 12/05/2017
last input is really awkward to end time at in this game
because the last input is during text mashing
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/05/2017
Last input for Superstar saga is text mashing

SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Lol muz
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
@Almo
Why
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Lol, of course almo did
Cine - 12/18/2017
@Almo stahp
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Whatever, it'll be fine
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
Classic
Muz - 12/18/2017
SeemsGood
Almo - 12/18/2017
Lmao whoops
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
good job :thumbsup:
Almo - 12/18/2017
Wasn’t lookin at discord. It’s ok
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
w/e lol
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
Several people are typing
Cine - 12/18/2017
U did this with the goomfrey thig too lol
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I just wanted to discuss actual end frame before anyone tweeted, but it's all right
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
illegal tweet
Cine - 12/18/2017
Sjorec most people on twitter dont even know what end frame means
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Ban this man
Cine - 12/18/2017
They just care about the new end time
Almo - 12/18/2017
Can y’all link me to the discussion doc where I posted my reasoning. Someone on twitter wanted to know
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xHa8KtlrOlTYzJRVGg_Dr80Jwu3yVdec6Dwvsy8VyD8/edit
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Think it's pinned
Cine - 12/18/2017
My boy mxsfitssb
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Hey, we had a whole discussion, and no one posted polls on twitter to cause a huge shitstorm
Good job TTYD
Muz - 12/18/2017
:confetti_ball:
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
:confetti_ball:
:yoshizYay:
Cine - 12/18/2017
No sm64 raid :HyperPog:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Literally better than sm64
Muz - 12/18/2017
did they actually do that?
Cine - 12/18/2017
until we ban switch vc
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
I want more drama :PogChamp: :Kappa:
Cine - 12/18/2017
:cease:
Man
If we only we had bounceyboys opinion on the matter
bonecrusher1022 - 12/18/2017
Yeah some people in the SM64 community raided the other server for Pm64 Wii U discussion early on. Not going to derail this chat on that though
Muz - 12/18/2017
omg cine lol
that was so dumb
Cine - 12/18/2017
Bone I know all the pm64 guys love when that gets brought up
But
Almo - 12/18/2017
Btw I’m for last-input but that’s just me :new_moon_with_face:
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
Last input is after credits when you save :Kappa:
Almo - 12/18/2017
Lmao
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
So are we making a poll Sjorec or what?
Cine - 12/18/2017
Not another one :WutFace:
Unless itll close today within a few hrs
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
so iris wipe it is?
Cine - 12/18/2017
This discussion has gone on way too long
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
It's fine haha.

Seems like most people are down for Iris wipe though.
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
So Vyn, about your reasoning with keeping Hundo credits timed  :Kappa:
Let's keep going in circles
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Lol
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Surprised the vote was that decisive
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
The iris wipe is right on a beat in the music, so it's easy to anticipate
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Time to change split to "the beat"
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Hey does this mean that JP time from like 2014 can get verified since it stopped at the start of credits
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
do do do DOOT doot do-do doo, blap blat blap
It's on the DOOT
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
"the DOOT"
Cine - 12/18/2017
https://youtu.be/LT_g5LzWiOw
5 seconds in
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
I just realized, my TAS gets a PB :PogChamp: . Lmfao
Cine - 12/18/2017
If you speed that song up its the life lost theme from smb3
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Confirmed this run can go on the lb now :PogChamp: https://youtu.be/A5rA6YdcqEo
Video stops like 5s after iris wipe
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
LOL
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
Sweet
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Iris wipe is about -5:06 over THE END
I'll get an exact count if that's what we decide on
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
What's the frame that was for the end? Haha. Just the first frame you can pick out "the end" fading in?
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I've always split when it's fully faded in
This is why we needed discussion in the first place lmao
Also 325 runs to edit. I'm gonna have fun lol
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
Just delete all the old ones :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
That's what Vynneve used to do
He'd overwrite old PBs with new ones
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Ya. Well once we get the exact frames, then it's just a constant time decrease. Ezpz
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
I like keeping all the runs, so it can show under obsoleted runs
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Lol, ya I did that. I didn't understand why it mattered xD
And kinda thought that's why the edit button is there
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
Progression matters to me
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
All of the history stuff in the statistics tab uses obsolete runs
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Ya
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
This might be a good time to get the WR history sorted out on that note
Would be cool
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
If someone could hunt down old runs, I'd do that
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Almo said he'd submit his old runs, that was about 6 months ago :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Mainly just missing Eng/PAL runs, because a lot of old ones were lost during the split
Or rather the switch to speedrun.com. I think we got all of them for the category split
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Yeah it's all the pre-src ones that are missing
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
All we really need is run time and date
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
No src, no did
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Konkuu's run should be submitted to All Stars for WR history too technically
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
If @Almo can make a list of the times and dates of his old Eng WRs, I can fix the graph
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Sounds good
Cine - 12/18/2017
No ones asking u to do it alone sjorec :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
No one offered to help yet :OpieOP:
Cine - 12/18/2017
If its just decreasing every run by a flat amount Id be happy to help
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
I can help
I was gonna go retime my own run right now actually
Cine - 12/18/2017
Is there really a point to updating obsolete times
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
Yeah
If your previous PB was less than 5m difference then your old run would appear(edited)
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
For runs that have videos, I was just going to look at the livesplit times, because most likely the time that needs to be subtracted isn't a flat abount of seconds
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Could do that. It's not that hard that way either, just literally retime it.
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I wonder if I can talk to a speedrun.com guy and see if we can subtract a certain time from every run automatically
And then just add it back for Vynneve's hundo PB OpieOP
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
Especially because we don't really have an exact frame for "the end"
Lmfao
If you wanna do a constant subtract thing, that sounds good.
Cine - 12/18/2017
Did u time jp vs eng
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
We'll see how close it is to a whole second when I time the credits
Cine - 12/18/2017
There may be a frame difference on credits
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I'll do both versions, but I don't expect there to be a noticable difference
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
The credits are all within the one area, so I doubt there's a difference
It's not like it needs to load throughout
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Oh, didn't ed have a PB with a read error in the credits? lmfao
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
To me it's more when people split. Cuz you could split as soon as you see the end, or a bit later.
I didn't think of that lolz
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
I do remember that happening, but was that during the actual credits?
Probably happened during the cutscenes before it
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
You know what'd be really funny? If someone had an obsolete run with a disc read error that lost 20 seconds, and then they beat it by 10 seconds.
So their old PB would become their new PB
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
Vyn, there's a scenario where you can say "free pb" ^
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
No one would highlight that lmao
That would be lost forever
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Well it depends on the order of the runs
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Assuming the 2 runs had a decent amount of time between them
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
By the way, if anyone wants to change their run comments after the retime, do that too
"I'll go for 2:51 eventually"
>Has 2:48
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
"Sub 420 is definitely possible" -4:22:13
LuL
Max Hillman - 12/18/2017
got sub 4:40 and I didn’t even need to do anything
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
gg
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
MAX lol
Muz - 12/18/2017
:maxhilWow:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
At least the subtracted time is really close to 5 minutes, so people who aim for sub-round numbers can still go for them OpieOP
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
:maxhilWow:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
sub 415 is the new sub 420
we now blaze up at 415 guys :thinking:
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Sub 2:45 JP Any%
:ok_hand::skin-tone-1:
Muz - 12/18/2017
Sub PiT when
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
When I go on a trick-finding spree again
Muz - 12/18/2017
do it pls
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
I don't decide when they happen lol
I just keep looking
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
@Vynneve mowzless may get sub 410

Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Maybe if in the future someone submits a run that uses credits timing
Ed did it too DansGame
PME on JP
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
kk. ugh, so many more to change when i show obsolete runs lmao
Zephiles - 12/18/2017
have fun :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Yeah, I'm only up to 9th for JP
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
gonna crank some music and grind this shit out :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
If you take a break, just post in here where you leave off
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
:thumbsup:
Zephiles - 12/18/2017
you can thank me later for deleting some of my obsolete runs :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Zeph here's ruining our prestigious history DansGame
Really_Tall - 12/18/2017
:DansGame:
Zephiles - 12/18/2017
who actually looks at that :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Actually, I did the same thing a long time ago
Good times

Vynneve - 12/18/2017
eds run says 16 seconds stronger. Should i edit it to 5mins 21 seconds stronger? :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Yeah, but then edit it back once you update his previous PB :Kappa:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
lol
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Classic Zeph and his jpg THE END icon

Evan44 - 12/18/2017
lmao nice edit on the comment of my english pb
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
:thumbsup:
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
looks like i am not first anymore :OpieOP:
someone verify it :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Congrats ed Kappa
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
^
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I'll re-framecount mine Vynneve. Don't need to edit the comment
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
what? ur not first?

and ya, wasn't going to. also, you don't have live split :DansGame:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I'll get the time real quick
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
vyn i edited my comment
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I got the time, I'm gonna edit my run @Vynneve
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
k i'll skip urs. i'll do the obsolete ones?
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Yeah, gotta do those
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
ya just making sure ur only doing ur top run, not any of ur obsolete ones
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Yeah, I just did that one
If there's any more of mine without livesplit, just subtract the 5:06
bc I don't have the vids anymore
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
:thumbsup: and evan, i liked the old comment, sub 415 the dream
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Oh no, I did PME in a JP run
Pretty sure it was on accident
Zephiles - 12/18/2017
sure :OpieOP:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
evans old PB is 4:20. i'm resisting adding a comment "420 blaze it"
Almo - 12/18/2017
i'm not gonna update any of my vod titles so this is going to be confusing for a little bit lol
Ed - 12/18/2017
yo how long was I first for?
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
A handful of seconds
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
i did evan's first lol
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Evan edited his comment, so it took his run off
Ed - 12/18/2017
good enough. quitting english now :Kappa:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
ah i see
Almo - 12/18/2017
i really don't like the fade out but whatever lol
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
y?
it's really the best option. besides "the end" of course :OpieOP:
Almo - 12/18/2017
i like last input, but it's not that important i guess
red2go - 12/18/2017
is PM64 technically last input or is it on hands up
Almo - 12/18/2017
the fadeout is weird and the tiny visible circle stays on screen for longer than i thought
it's last input
but hands up happens directly after the last text box
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
thought it was hands up.

and ya, but that's better than splitting while mashing text. I know it's a small thing, but still.(edited)
Almo - 12/18/2017
it's 1 text box
but yeah, not that important
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
ya i know, it's more of the objective accuracy I want, vs. actual practical timing lol. but, for me at least, my splits are behind me. It would actually be annoying (for me)
Ed - 12/18/2017
maybe when peach leaves? i guess it doesnt make too much sense  to do it there though
Almo - 12/18/2017
nah
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
The circle fades to black right on a beat in the music
Almo - 12/18/2017
i mean last input -> fade out is only 9 seconds, it doesn't matter too much
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
So splitting shouldn't be an issue. Easy to retime, anyway.
Ed - 12/18/2017
also the game is pretty lengthy. so wether the time comes down within a second almost won't be a big deal
Sjorec - 12/18/2017

Almo - 12/18/2017
right on a beat in the music? not really lmao
that's an awful cue, just look at the screen
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
no it's hands up red
Almo - 12/18/2017
it's hands up? i swore when we changed it, it was last input
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Ya it's hands up
I remember bc of yoshi's 1 frame 1:41
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
^
Almo - 12/18/2017
ok but that's recent
i'm talking about when the rule was changed in like 2014 or whatever
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/18/2017
it's been hands up
lol
Almo - 12/18/2017
i could have swon the discussion for it was last input
but ok
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
How would you frame count last input though if needed?
You can't see when someone hits a button
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I've retimed 50+ runs, and the circle fade is super easy to anticipate
Almo - 12/18/2017
when the star disappears on a text box
either way
hands up is literally less than half a second after last input
it's basically the same thing
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Lol we just removed 5 minutes
and now you're saying 9 seconds is too much
Almo - 12/18/2017
i'm not saying it's too much
actually the opposite
the difference between 9 seconds and 5 minutes really didn't seem like a big deal to change every LB time, make every vod confusing, and make a faster 100% route (and potentially ACS with more finds) no longer possible
i didn't feel like it was an important issue is all lol
BUT
if we are gonna change it, why not go the whole nine yards
why are we waiting those 9 seconds?

i guess inaccurate splitting is a good enough reason
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
If we find another way into the credits fadeout wouldn't need to be changed is another reason
Bc it'd still be the first black frame when loading
Almo - 12/18/2017
if we found a way into the credits, like say via warp, wouldn't it work the same way as in the LZ randomizer? where it's just kind of sudden and starts the credit music right away, which would actually be after the fade out we're using now

to which i would argue is just another reason keeping end of credits would make more sense(edited)
but anyway, we already had a discussion, the majority wanted to change it, it's all good
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
We don't know what it'd look like
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
it's pretty much split inaccuracy is why i'm saying to do iris wipe..
Almo - 12/18/2017
that's fair
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
That's the main reason ya
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
vs last text box. I know people will loost count or not be paying attension, and miss it lol. but you can't miss iris wipe
Almo - 12/18/2017
i mean, at that point, wouldn't you just re-time?
if you miss the last split?
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Retiming is also easier with first black frame
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
yah, but having it on iris wipe avoids that.
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
No one ever retimes their runs. It'd be nice if they did, but they don't
Almo - 12/18/2017
is it? it seems just as easy for star disappearing if we're talking frame count
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Also, I found out today that people have been splitting at two different points with THE END timing
Either once the text starts to fade in, or once it fully fades in
Almo - 12/18/2017
that's true, it was already inaccurate to begin with
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Community's literally full of cheaters :Kappa:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
ya thats true. a game i have wr in has a similar thing, i'm honestly not sure where the frame ending it :thinking:
lol
Ed - 12/18/2017
I used to do it when it was semi fading in :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
There's a 24 frame difference in the two timings
Almo - 12/18/2017
again, i'm not trying to fight anything and glad we changed it since the majority wanted to change it, simply trying to refute points to further the discussion
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
At least from my observation. It's hard to frame count the fade-in
Ed - 12/18/2017
we can pretty much just turn the console off after it fades right? like we dont even have to watch the credits
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
If you want
Almo - 12/18/2017
yeah, runs will still count
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Nice for races, imo
lmfao this nman comment

Almo - 12/18/2017
have only some LB times changed?
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
How old is that?
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
We're updating right now, so only some have been changed
I'm almost done with JP, and Vynneve's working through E/P
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
i'm working on eng, sjorec is doing JP
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
We're doing all of the obsolete runs too
Almo - 12/18/2017
y'all fucked me up for paperthon here
now ttyd has no break lol
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
December 2014 SG
Just run TTYD with the new Goomba stuff in prologue, then you can sit there for upwards of 12 minutes waiting for him to move Kappa
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
lol
Almo - 12/18/2017
lol
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Finally made it to Regen's PB
JP board is done. Gonna to ACS in a bit
I'll also update the rules for all categories
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
zeph will beat his eng run soon guys. 3 months ago
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
lol
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
can i edit lies in comments? :Kappa:
Cine - 12/18/2017
Take a shot every time someone says iris wipe
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Have fun dying :Kappa:(edited)
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
My new SoB is 2:43:11
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
:ok_hand::skin-tone-1:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017

I should change the word "click"
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Just make it "select"
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
That's what I did
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
:ok_hand::skin-tone-1:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I've got to fix routes too, because they tell you when to end time
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
ttyd is a PC game now? :OpieOP:
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
I always play it on my PC :OpieOP:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
rip red's nice 4h 31min flat time.
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
DansGame

Zephiles - 12/18/2017
part 6
Muz - 12/18/2017
:WutFace:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
part 6??
that reminds me, to those that upload to youtube: :heart:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
rip "608 shower break"
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
LOL
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
ACS done
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
so sjorec, was the proper timing for the end when it fully fades in on screen, or when it is shown at the start of fading in?
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
idfk
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
i was told when it starts fading
so thats what i was doing for every run
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Cheater
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
rules just said when "the end" shows, so as soon as you can see it is valid :OpieOP:
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
and are you guys updating the times by looking at the splits? or you subtracting
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
i think i always split when it's fully faded though :thinking: i don't really know though lmao
splits
or for ones that don't have splits/video, just subtract the 5:06
Zephiles - 12/18/2017
@Evan44 "Timing ends on the circle fade-out before credits (on the first frame that the screen is fully black)."
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
He was talking about old timing
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
ya
like "the end" fade in. not the iris wipe
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
excuse me zeph
its a shame that NintendoBlackCrisis is just barely gonna miss out on sub-10h for english :p
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Damn, Shoopey had the first sub-10 hundo
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
it was meant to be for shoopey
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Tfw hypermariosunshine got sub 13
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
he was already at sub 13
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
Oh, they haven't gotten there yet?
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
not all of em yet
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Almo's 10:11 dropped like 80 million frames during the circle fade NotLikeThis
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
for english at least
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I'm just subtracting 5:06
Evan44 - 12/18/2017
lol
SolidifiedGaming - 12/18/2017
lol
Sabotage :Kappa:
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
"sub 4:30 is literally free" -Evan

duh evan, the top 9 runs have sub 4:30 :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
I'm surprised it's only top 9 with the time change
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
max is 4:42 (10th place)
before time change
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
@Almo Did you 13:02 100% run end on the end, or postgame?
Vynneve - 12/18/2017
quote by sjorec at the end of one of his outdated run, "Why don't we stop when we beat the final boss? because a speedrun is a speedrun from the start of the game to the end of the game, and the game only ends when the game says "the end" " :joy:
Sjorec - 12/18/2017
Whoever said that is a dumbass :Kappa:

Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I watched a video a while ago, and what I took away from it was that: category rules that exist to purly reduce arbitrariness and not to maintain (in order) the spirit of the category, and fun, are kind of silly
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/23/2017
we don't read the mail in PM64 100% if that says anything(edited)
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
we dont need all the emails either :OpieOP:
Yoshi_Zilla - 12/23/2017
that's for the meme category :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
We actually skip an email in the current 100% route
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
a lot of emails are skipped in the current 100% route
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
Right before Darkly there's normally an email, but you don't get it if you go around the area to the right
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
theres definitely more than that
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I can't think of any other ones, but idk what the emails are
Maybe trouble ones
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
sequence-based ones
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I guess post-ch 5
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
I don't really get ur point. The spirit of the category is pause menu stuff
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
lets make all the emails required :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
Then why is it called "100%"?
100% and pause menu shouldn't go hand-in-hand if 100% typically means "do everything"
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Because it's the only central things that are tracked in the game. Been over this. What else are you meant to have a foundation for it?
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
You don't need a foundation. There's a lot more to the game than just the pause menu. The category should be called "Menu Completion"
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Even if the game had a "100%" completion thing, there would still be more things you can add.
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
The game as a whole should be used as a foundation for 100%
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
thats impossible to do sjorec :OpieOP:
that would include setting all possible flags, which is impossible
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
That's why every aspect of the game should be voted on to construct a reasonable definition
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Meh, I disagree. Cuz then it's just everything, adding all this stuff you have to do. THAT adds arbitrary things in light of making it fun. Having a def like pause menu gives a good foundation to base a hundo run on.

That's my take.
If we get rid of it or w.e it's fine though lol, I obvs don't care that much about non-any%. I guess we do need a poll :thinking:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I feel like you can't go wrong by voting for individual aspects, because if everyone really wants to keep current 100%, they'll just vote for those aspects
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
So that then I guess
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I'll draft a poll after the holidays then
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Then the question is, what things are in the poll lulz
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I'll try to make it as comprehensive as possible, and I'll post a list beforehand to see if anyone has stuff to add
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Reading out loud every cutscene textbox better be in there :OpieOP:
It's also kinda iffy doing this though cuz people might just meme vote, cuz not many people really care about it. Ex: ending up not needing to collect badges. But iunno, prob be fine.
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
most generic textboxes dont set any flags whatsoever
so no point in reading
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
But you have to read it all, otherwise you didn't experience 100% of the game
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
We could maybe make a baseline for what should always be included
idk though
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Ya. Talk more later, going to bed now
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
hey vynn, i can say i read them all, but how do you plan to proof it without any flags? :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
Every submission needs to be reviewed in full
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
No vid no did
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
everyone must submit their save files for proofing :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
With audible audio, so we can hear you reading off each one
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Exactly. And you must have character voices for each NPC
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
what if the audio is spliced :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
We'll spectrograph analyze each run
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
that gives me an idea
someone should do a stream where the game feed is legit, but everything else is spliced
then submit it :Kappa:
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Huh?
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I was thinking about splicing a TTYD run just to see what I could get, but too much work
Also people get mad at that stuff, even if you don't submit it anywhere
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Just make a tas. The ultimate splicing
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
(because they're stupid)
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
how about we just take a bunch of runs and make a single run from each part of those :OpieOP:
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Maybe even frame by frame
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
actually this is an interesting idea
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I call frame 18093
My frame 18093 is better than all of yours(edited)
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
:FailFish: I'm joking on how it's not lol. Just do a tas
Plz, my frame 15000 is top teir
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
if you made a run that took each room from a run where it was done faster than anyone else, what would be the final time?
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Slower than the tases, faster than wr
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
Probably 2:40
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
a community WR :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
My SoB is 2:42 with splits that encompass several rooms
So maybe lower than 2:40
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
Having a number, community sob, is cool. But to actually splice a run is kinda pointless in this case. Cuz we can tas. Other games where they can't tas, Its cool to see.
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
That'd be a cool project. What if it was limited to PB runs (current and obsolete)?
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
the splice was a joke obviously :OpieOP:
i would probably limit it to PBs
current or obsolete are fine
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
There are communities that have done a run like that haha. It's cool. But again pointless here cuz tas imo.
Anyway, pge out (sjorec will get that joke)
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
:DansGame:
Vynneve - 12/23/2017
:D
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
better watch out or sjorec will defenestrate you :Kappa:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
Should I change the wikipedia image to a gif of window jump?
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
go for it :OpieOP:
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I'll do it tomorrow :OpieOP:
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
but i think they keep track of your IP for changes on the site
Sjorec - 12/23/2017
I'm making the site better
They should be thanking me
Zephiles - 12/23/2017
if you're willing to take the risk :OpieOP:
December 26, 2017
Max Hillman - 12/26/2017
I edited my description of my run on SR.com to match the time change and it needs to be verified again if someone wants to get on that whenever they can @Yoshi_Zilla @Sjorec @Vynneve thx dudes
Vynneve - 12/26/2017
got it @Max Hillman
January 23, 2018
Cine - Today at 5:56 PM
any reason this channel still needs to exist?
ZanSav - Today at 5:59 PM
There could always be future discussions
Cine - Today at 5:59 PM
about timing?
There hasnt been a single message in here for a month
not really any purpose for it
bonecrusher1022 - Today at 5:59 PM
Yes :OpieOP:
bonecrusher1022 - Today at 6:00 PM
Personally I say just lock posts here until something else worth discussing is brought up so the discussion isn't lost
ZanSav - Today at 6:00 PM
I propose we start timing on the first frame the player has Control of Mario :OpieOP:
Vynneve - Today at 6:16 PM
i want console start up
but srs. i agree, we can just get rid of this now. #routing is kinda replacing it. keep that one.
Zephiles - Today at 6:20 PM
this channel still exists because its effectively an archive
red2go - Today at 6:20 PM
I just want to point out, this change made my pre palace skip English a sub 5(edited)
Vynneve - Today at 6:22 PM
then just lock it if you wanna keep the talks we had about changing timing.
Sjorec - Today at 6:49 PM
I'll hide this channel from non-mods. I can remove it after I archive it.