The Challenge

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csw [3:17 PM]
And Midnight Mystic

[3:17]
A "boom" higher than Tulips just decades ago. and it made a profit

[3:17]
No intervention...

cypherblock [3:22 PM]
k, so segwit increases incentive to get block downloads without witness (smaller and can ignore validating sigs) but with the transactions so this next miner can start mining new block with transactions (more fees) as opposed to today where if they do validationless mining it is usually empty block.

csw [3:23 PM]
Yes

[3:24]
And if the majority do this, Core can add and change the protocol without miner consent. (edited)

[3:24]
Just software updates

cypherblock [3:26 PM]
well I am too slow to follow that conclusion.

csw [3:26 PM]
If a minority miner does find an invalid block, the majority have an incentive to ignore and move on. Leaving the invalid data

[3:27]
Changes to script are version differences. These are in the witness data, not the miner validation

joeldalais [3:28 PM]
if miners activate segwit they are giving control of all their infrastructure (and funds they've spent on it) to blockstream

csw [3:28 PM]
Say, 10% report an invalid block two weeks into the chain... No miner would allow the loss to repair it.

At best, the 10% miner has honest chain that is a fork and is dropped.

csw [3:29 PM]
uploaded this image: image.png
Add Comment

csw [3:29 PM]
uploaded this image: image.png
Add Comment

cypherblock [3:30 PM]
any chain with invalid block will be ignored by rest of network.

csw [3:30 PM]
Now

[3:31]
If miners are incentivised to not validate...
And witness data is not on most clients?

[3:31]
How

cypherblock [3:32 PM]
most clients will get and validate witness data (except for light clients (spv wallets))

csw [3:33 PM]
Really, not what I see from how the code is being implemented.

cypherblock [3:34 PM]
most ‘full nodes’ (today’s lingo: non-mining nodes that validate everything) are running segwit compatible code so if it activates then they will get and validate the witness data.

csw [3:34 PM]
Run it on a set of VMs and see.

[3:35]
Challenge (edited)

cypherblock [3:35 PM]
its active on testnet isn’t it (Segwit that is)

lunar [3:35 PM]
joined private by invitation from @bitsko

csw [3:35 PM]
Not fully and it is causing a lot of reordering

[3:37]
Why is it so difficult to have people run 20-30 VMs and try sending a little invalidated data?

[3:38]
Run Wireshark, see what is transfered.

[3:38]
And Olly or similar and see what the code does

cypherblock [3:39 PM]
up to date nodes (running latest code) will receive 100% of the block data, headers, transactions+witness data. Do you think otherwise?

csw [3:39 PM]
Test

[3:40]
Run it and test.

cypherblock [3:42 PM]
the code is fairly straight forward if I recall. There are 2 serialization formats. When sending to old out of date software nodes, use serialization format that removes witness data from segwit transactions. When sending to segwit capable nodes, use serialization format that includes the witness data in its usual place.

csw [3:42 PM]
Then test it.

cypherblock [3:43 PM]
So you claim I’m wrong? What should I be looking for? Tests can show lots of things.

[3:43]
what is your hypothosis?

csw [3:43 PM]
I know the stories I am told, but I rarely trust what I am told to believe... I like evidence

[3:44]
I am saying that you clearly have not tested that segwit can result in invalid blocks being mined and stored by the majority

[3:45]
It is easier to say that I am speaking BS than to test that I am...

cypherblock [3:45 PM]
if majority stays on non segwit validating software then you are correct.

[3:46]
I could run a test and maybe have the wrong setup to test your hypothosis (how many segwit nodes? how many old nodes? how many mining nodes? etc)

csw [3:47 PM]
Well, would you not like to see where the failures occur without my saying :slightly_smiling_face:

[3:47]
Is the ecosystem not fluid?

[3:48]
From what I see, mining and hashrate is not set, it changes

antanst [3:48 PM]
csw: In the case that segwit activates, the segwit-aware full nodes will fully verify every block, signatures and all. You disagree with this?

csw [3:49 PM]
What does my view matter...
And why are people so reticent to test?

tomothy
[3:49 PM]
I think it should be tested; would be fun. Time. Time is the enemy :confused:

csw [3:50 PM]
How many people are there?

[3:50]
And other than me, how many tests have been done?


cypherblock [3:51 PM]
@csw if I wasn’t working full time on other stuff and family stuff, would be glad to. But also tests have been done. Do we all need to test? If I test then what about the next guy. Vm companies (aws) will make lots of $ on us :slightly_smiling_face:

csw [3:51 PM]
VM at home

[3:51]
No, not all, and where are these tests?

[3:52]
What if Dr. Evil (me) pays for the VMs?

[3:53]
Then those "Evil" companies make money off of me... Win win huh

cypherblock [3:53 PM]
so setup a few vms, go into regtest mode, generate some blocks and see what data is sent between them? Sure might have time to do some of that. I have not done a lot of testing that way so might take some time to get feet wet. Where are these tests is a good question. I haven’t actually seen test results. I could ask devs.


[3:54]
I do have to go to that work thing now :disappointed:

csw [3:54 PM]
Ditto.
But if you are willing, I will help with the scoping and we can have an independent test.

tomothy
[3:55 PM]
I want to go home and play on computers now, but I have work

csw [3:55 PM]
Funded by Dr. Evil...


antanst [3:55 PM]
@csw Your view matters because you are the one that claims there is an issue. Why not just disclose the method to reproduce it then, if you can reliably reproduce it?

cypherblock [3:55 PM]
ok, let us chat latter on this.

tomothy
[3:55 PM]
i'm cool if Dr. Evil funds things; I mean he wanted sharks with freaking laserbeams


csw [3:55 PM]
LOL

[3:55]
In time

tomothy
[3:55 PM]
innovation!

csw [3:56 PM]
Antanst
As I have done this many times and being me is the issue...

[3:56]
But, if it is done by others..

[3:57]
@vlad2vlad - are you willing to act in escrow (BTC wise)

vlad2vlad [4:00 PM]
Yeah.  I'm good to go, Danneskjöld.  :)

csw [4:01 PM]
See DM vlad

vlad2vlad [4:02 PM]
Got it.  That's a lot of money.  Sure, I'd be glad to do it.

tomothy
[4:04 PM]
oh, and you'd need to document the results and be able to publish/ write a report on it

[4:04]
he can't do that

[4:04]
it would be tainted and discredited even if true, especially if true

csw [4:04 PM]
Not even anon?

tomothy
[4:04 PM]
probably if anon ok, or a fancy name, like they did with asicboost/ antbleed

[4:05]
something comparable w/ segwit

checksum0 [4:05 PM]
I heard Satoshi Nakamoto is a pretty weird name...

[4:05]
Wonder why...

klee [4:05 PM]
segregated bleeding

csw [4:05 PM]
SegBleed


checksum0 [4:05 PM]
SegShit is probably satisfying too

macsga [4:05 PM]
lol, being on a lecture and here was a BAD idea

phoenix [4:06 PM]
Forkwit

tomothy
[4:06 PM]
LOL yeah, trying to catch up w/ stuff from yetserday ugh

macsga [4:06 PM]
@phoenix no shit

jp [4:06 PM]
nah, segtampon

phoenix [4:06 PM]
@jp so like a segways ?

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:26 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [4:06 PM]
Lets make it 10BTC if I am utterly wrong and hence mad too.

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:27 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:07]
Over the costs

macsga [4:07 PM]
is somebody up to do this?

csw [4:07 PM]
I am a scammer.... Why take my money

macsga [4:08 PM]
no, like a case study

tomothy
[4:08 PM]
anyone can i think, multiple tests could also be good

[4:08]
serious write up matters though

csw [4:08 PM]
Yes.

tomothy
[4:08 PM]
more than a medium page :slightly_smiling_face: (edited)

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:26 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [4:08 PM]
I will fund the editorial team and publishing costs as well.

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:26 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:08]
Either positive or negative results

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:26 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:09]
As long as you are willing to at least listen to my input and guidance on this.


checksum0 [4:10 PM]
:clap:

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:26 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [4:11 PM]
The editorial team are good enough to get it published in the journal of your choice if the results are collected in the correct and unbiased manner

macsga [4:13 PM]
seems like a sweet deal

[4:13]
what are the hardware demands for such an experiment?

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:26 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [4:14 PM]
Small network, so these would be minimal. AWS systems will do fine

macsga [4:14 PM]
I presumed something on a desktop computer

[4:15]
like 4-5 machines running

csw [4:15 PM]
I am spoilt. So, let me know if that works

macsga [4:15 PM]
silly me

[4:16]
cloud computing also does

csw [4:17 PM]
@vlad2vlad let them know when the deposit is cleared... damn capped system.

macsga [4:18 PM]
brb, back in the lecture now

vlad2vlad [4:18 PM]
I got it.  But still at zeroClox

csw [4:18 PM]
Well, sent - do not blame me for not lifting the cap and slowing this down

vlad2vlad [4:19 PM]
That's it, I'm bombing the inflation control guy.

csw [4:20 PM]
Watch me Evilly scam you into accepting money for services. (edited)


[4:20]
Muhahaha

vlad2vlad [4:20 PM]
Hahaha

[4:21]
Pure evil!!

csw [4:21 PM]
Using that most evil of things....

[4:21]
free choice


Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:24 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:23]
When the report is done, I will pay for editing services and also the fees for publication in an Open Access journal.

[4:23]
One of the top ones.

[4:24]
It will be blind peer reviewed


Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:25 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:26]
Open Access journals are open source licensed and the paper will be freely available. The publication fees cover running these without access costs to the world. The fee will include peer validation.

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:25 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:27]
Vlad has received a transaction, and this accounts under contract law as offer and consideration.

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:25 PM Pinned by newliberty
[4:28]
I acknowledge that I am contractually bound in the UK to the people or persons on this list who wish to accept this offer without limitations


checksum0 [4:28 PM]
Can we have txid?

csw [4:28 PM]
P.S. That LLM after my name is Master of law so I understand contract law well enough

[4:29]
Vlad, deposit address please.

vlad2vlad [4:30 PM]
1GW3V1TwtHYGjMd6fBq5tSz2Xt6eBPMjb7

csw [4:31 PM]
More will follow when the multi-sig is setup


vlad2vlad [4:32 PM]
Ok.

[4:32]
:)

joeldalais [4:32 PM]
this should be interesting to see if anyone takes it up :slightly_smiling_face:

csw [4:33 PM]
And completes it

joeldalais [4:33 PM]
yep

csw [4:33 PM]
uploaded and commented on this image: image.png
1 Comment

This is my non-existent law degree

joeldalais [4:34 PM]
ahh nice

csw [4:34 PM]
Northumbria, Newcastle UK

joeldalais [4:34 PM]
ye, i recognize UK type degrees

csw [4:34 PM]
Yes, a bloody limey uni

[4:34]
Oh... did people think I ONLY did degrees at CSU?

joeldalais [4:35 PM]
must admit i read about all your degrees when you 1st 'appeared' on that video conference thing, before all the satoshi stuff

csw [4:35 PM]
Real bugger that

joeldalais [4:35 PM]
was impressed back that

csw [4:36 PM]
A shame that poor Maxy seems to like to attack without checking...

joeldalais [4:36 PM]
and to be absolutely honesty, it was pretty easy to check..

csw [4:37 PM]
But slander is so much easier and more fun

joeldalais [4:37 PM]
it just couldn't fit with the narrative maxwell was shaping

[4:37]
and ye, it does seem maxwell is very prone towards slander and attacks

[4:37]
i just cba with it

csw [4:38 PM]
Yes, the evil Dr Wright is a lawyer - gasp....
And I am also a banker... dadadadum

[4:38]
And I code (edited)

[4:38]
And I was..... here is the really evil bit

[4:38]
A Quant

joeldalais [4:38 PM]
anything and everything, whatever they can find to stick

[4:40]
far from over i'd say

csw [4:40 PM]
I do not think people really understand what a Quant is or does, nor just how much they can earn.

Nor what they need as a skill set :slightly_smiling_face:

xhiggy [4:40 PM]
What is their ideal skill set?

joeldalais [4:41 PM]
economics, maths and law

[4:41]
i'd hazard to say

[4:41]
and computer science ofc

csw [4:41 PM]
C/C++ Coding
Economics
Econometrics
Stats (mathematical)
Securities law

[4:42]
And a few other things

xhiggy [4:42 PM]
I imagine most lack the understanding of securities law

csw [4:42 PM]
No, they just ignore it

joeldalais [4:43 PM]
i have all these things, but in a much lesser degree :disappointed: some years here, some years there, nothing really specialized

[4:44]
hence part of my fascination with bitcoin, its like looking through the looking glass, but not 100% grasping what i'm seeing.

[4:44]
I can see why you're doing the MSc though

csw [4:45 PM]
10 years plus, a Quant can earn:

Interest Rates (1,700;2,300)k
ForEx (1,700;2,300)k
Credit Derivatives (1,800;2,400)k
Commodities (1,700;2,300)k

[4:46]
Nah, I will not do work that way again.

[4:47]
https://80000hours.org/career-reviews/trading-in-quantitative-hedge-funds/
80,000 Hours
Trading in quantitative hedge funds (for earning to give) - Career profile (509kB)

[4:48]
Based on current salary levels and ignoring the chance of firm failure, we estimate the median lifetime earnings for a new entrant are $250,000-$750,000 per year, with a mean over $1 million per year. This ignores prospective salary growth or contraction. Overall, we recommend using an expectation value somewhat below these figures.

joeldalais [4:48 PM]
:open_mouth:

csw [4:49 PM]
I walked away from all that for Bitcoin :slightly_smiling_face:

joeldalais [4:49 PM]
worth it for Bitcoin I'd say

csw [4:49 PM]
And MORE

joeldalais [4:49 PM]
societal game changer

darius [4:50 PM]
joined private by invitation from @tomothy

joeldalais [4:50 PM]
learning about the collapse of the roman empire and how it relates to today/creation of bitcoin were interesting points

csw [4:51 PM]
So, as the resident evil scammer, it should be worth taking my money to show me up :slightly_smiling_face:

joeldalais [4:52 PM]
well, if people think that way about you, we will wait and see

[4:52]
i have a feeling no one will, but i've been wrong before..

csw [4:53 PM]
That would be a bugger. A report I do will be overlooked by many...

[4:53]
Maybe not those with a commercial stake...

joeldalais [4:54 PM]
you could always ask someone (vlad) to more publicly take it up on your behalf if no one here will take it on

csw [4:55 PM]
Let us see here first

joeldalais [4:55 PM]
ye

newliberty [4:55 PM]
It should have takers, especially from any detractors since the offer includes paying more for a negative result than a confirming one

csw [4:55 PM]
If not, I will open it up

[4:55]
Yes, notice the skew

[4:55]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbwkkXGmFrI
YouTube cmidnight99
Monty Python Llama Sketch


joeldalais [4:55 PM]
i doubt you'd find many detractors on the BU board, and they probably wouldn't be taken seriously either

[4:57]
but might be worth mentioning it there anyway, there are a fair few people there who are not pro-bu


newliberty [4:57 PM]
Have been battling lions for alpaca territory lately.
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/02/13/lions-of-los-angeles
The New Yorker
Lions of Los Angeles
Are the city’s pumas dangerous predators or celebrity guests? (250kB)

csw [4:57 PM]
You again think the "community" is large.

I will get this in a high end open journal

macsga [4:57 PM]
alpaca my friend


[4:57]
welcome back

[4:57]
:heart:

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:23 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [4:58 PM]
A journal with a readership of at least 100 scientists for each person who we call a bitcoiner (edited)


[4:58]
Let that be fought.

joeldalais [4:59 PM]
aye, relative to that the community is tiny

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:23 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [5:00 PM]
I will do a full cross publication spread, IEEE, ACM and Physics Letters.

Hand held editorial services to ensure it is accepted.

Peer review, the full works.

http://open.ieee.org/index.php/for-authors/author-processing-charges/

joeldalais [5:00 PM]
i really have no reference number, at a very rough guess i'd say the 'community' (people who use bitcoin at least once a month), is in the few millions. But that's a really rough guess mostly pulled out of my arse.

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:23 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [5:01 PM]
Oh and also translation to Chinese and Japanese

joeldalais [5:01 PM]
that would be good

[5:02]
you are going to make blockstream shit their pants :smile:

csw [5:02 PM]
For a student or tenure seeking academic, ...

joeldalais [5:02 PM]
sorry for the crudeness :smile:

csw [5:03 PM]
Shit their pants, why, you mean that I could be right and it is not a scam... never

joeldalais [5:03 PM]
i think deep down greg knows who you are and has a nervous 'tick' everytime he hears your name


csw [5:04 PM]
:slightly_smiling_face:

joeldalais [5:04 PM]
because he knows the bullshit he himself has been saying is that, bullshit

csw [5:04 PM]
I am just Craig :slightly_smiling_face:

joeldalais [5:04 PM]
yep, but Craig knows his bitcoin stuff and is worth listening to :slightly_smiling_face:

csw [5:05 PM]
Craig uses separate PGP keys per conversation with a generalised one for randoms... no other who knows crypto would consider do that. Maxy said so.

[5:05]
I am just a scammer and a fool with money to burn...

joeldalais [5:06 PM]
best way

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:22 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [5:06 PM]
Let us UP this.

If this occurs and the paper is done. I will make a permanent scholarship for bitcoin protocol research.


joeldalais [5:06 PM]
:open_mouth:

Pinned by newliberty
Yesterday at 5:37 PM Pinned by newliberty
csw [5:07 PM]
Enough to fund not only a paper, but several doctoral positions

checksum0 [5:07 PM]
Can we please be more precise on what should occur for the scholarship to occurs?

csw [5:07 PM]
I get the paper I asked for.

[5:09]
That is all. Not biased.

[5:09]
Paid more if you definitively prove me wrong under a peer reviewed paper that I pay for (right or wrong)

klee [5:10 PM]
Can we write a Spec doc?

[5:11]
for the test case

csw [5:11 PM]
Yes

klee [5:11 PM]
I mean not 'me' but if I was a tester this to be my input doc

joeldalais [5:11 PM]
i think the conversation started a bit before i appeared, but i or someone can go through it and edit out the non-relevant parts

newliberty [5:11 PM]
pheonix should get on this one, he is a prof at Univ of Nicosia Bitcoin degree program


csw [5:11 PM]
I would prefer this is done to the highest standard possible.

klee [5:11 PM]
agreed newliberty

[5:11]
he is ideal


joeldalais [5:12 PM]
interesting times :slightly_smiling_face:

csw [5:13 PM]
That is a chinese curse to be living within

joeldalais [5:14 PM]
:smile:

[5:14]
in a way it could be said these are cursed times, unless things change..

csw [5:17 PM]
Back to lurking for now... I must get some work done

Please start planning and plotting my downfall :wink: