MCOG

[OG] Rockwell09/09/2019
I have spoken to Shakira about the Humane Situation and have left a note on his account, he is taking full responsibility for the whole situation as his guys were working under his direct orders. He believes that the situation in regards to taking the detectives hostage was fine because they were preemptively dealing with a hostile situation before it actually started, Deescalating the situation as well as escalating at the same time. His reasoning for doing what he did was that the police were going to search them because they were in the area of a drug location and that Detectives go in and search anyone in or around the area on a regular basis. Boss and i spoke to a few of the cabinet and they have changed up some protocols for detectives to hopefully fix this issue in the future.

From this i have again looked at our rules and have found a few cross overs which i think we may need to look into.

I think we need to add the definition of the word Hostage to our rules.
Definition of hostage.  : one that is involuntarily controlled by an outside influence.
3.1.1
Traffic stops - Civilians cannot generally take police hostage or start hostile RP during a standard traffic stop. If you believe you are at risk of going to jail or getting large fines, you may declare and tie up/slow down police in order to aid your escape, only shooting if the police fail to comply.

3.4 Hostages: Ban Code Reference: [Rp]
You cannot initiate hostile RP to take a police officer hostage, they can only be taken during an ongoing situation with a valid reason.

Declaring on a police officer tying them up is taking them hostage, you're initiating hostile RP to tie up that officer these 2 rules contradict each other.

I believe instead of ;Traffic stops - Civilians cannot generally take police hostage or start hostile RP during a standard traffic stop. If you believe you are at risk of going to jail or getting large fines, you may declare and tie up/slow down police in order to aid your escape, only shooting if the police fail to comply.

It should be changed to something along the lines of

Traffic Stops - Players must comply with police in all general traffic stops, unless involved in a hostile situation that involves the player getting into a pursuit. This does not mean running from a traffic stop to initiate a pursuit.
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I also spoke to him about staff to which he asked if it was myself that put in the notice of inactivity on him being IA as staff, he told me that he was given staff perms though is not actually a staff member, he informed that Shams and Caldweld know why he is staff and that i should bring it up with them if i have an issue with the no staff work as he was brought into staff not because he was to do staff work but for something else that he can't explain to me. So in that i'm just going to leave it as it's over my pay grade :stuck_out_tongue:

Isa Fisher09/09/2019
@Shams747 @[OG] Rockwell
were we making Ralph admin or leave him at support for a little?

Shams74709/09/2019
From what I've seen, his transition back to into staff and our somewhat new rules has been a bit of a roller coaster ride for him.. I'll catch up with kosmic and see what he says as I gave him all the returning staff to evaluate

Isa Fisher09/09/2019
righto

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
and thoughts on what i have stated? Changes to the rules?

Shams74709/10/2019
The traffic stop part?

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Yep, the rules themselves contradicting each other. the addition of the definition of what a hostage is.

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Rule 3.1.1 is stating you can initiate hostile RP at a traffic stop Rule 3.4 is saying you can't.

Isa Fisher09/10/2019
I think no hostile RP should take place during a traffic stop at all.

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
I agree which is why i suggested Traffic Stops - Players must comply with police in all general traffic stops, unless involved in a hostile situation that involves the player getting into a pursuit. This does not mean running from a traffic stop to initiate a pursuit.

Shams74709/10/2019
i don't get it...it says both in 3.1.1(generally) and 3.4 that you can't take police hostage and only slow them down? whats the problem? :shrug:

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
A hostage is one that is involuntarily controlled by an outside influence.

MEE6BOT09/10/2019
GG @[OG] Rockwell, you just advanced to level 15!

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Would tying someone up not be taking control of them?

Shams74709/10/2019
yer for that moment...its not like they are taking them with em?

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Agreed, though you're still initiating Hostile RP in a Traffic stop to take them Hostage to slow them down to get away.

Shams74709/10/2019
detaining them,leaving them there and leaving I wouldn't really consider taking someone hostage

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Detaining them is taking them hostage. That is literally the definition of a hostage, The difference between a criminal and a police officer is that the Police officer has the badge that allows him to do what he does by law.

Shams74709/10/2019
Traffic stops - Civilians cannot generally take police hostage or start hostile RP during a standard traffic stop. If you believe you are at risk of going to jail or getting large fines, you may declare and tie up/slow down police in order to aid your escape, only shooting if the police fail to comply.

it literally separates the two?

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Declaring is turning the situation hostile? Tying up is taking the Officer Hostage.

3.4 Hostages: Ban Code Reference: [Rp]
You cannot initiate hostile RP to take a police officer hostage, they can only be taken during an ongoing situation with a valid reason.

Shams74709/10/2019
again, I don't see 'slowing them down' as taking them hostage...we need to give the civs some sort of chance otherwise cops would be too op

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
The problem is:
Cops don't abide by the NVL rule. so when out numbered they act like Rambo.
7/10 a Civ will run from a traffic stop, killing all roleplay.

Evasion of police always ends up in a shoot out.
Hostage taking or slowing down of police, nearly always ends up in a shoot out.

If we make it so a traffic stop is exactly that a traffic stop, and if you have broken a law to be in that traffic stop, you roleplay your way out of it or you take the fine on the chin. This is going to boost roleplay, this will decline the number of incidents people get killed or cops get killed and allow roleplay to flow more. Is that not the whole point of the server? Is that not the whole point we brought the Organisations in? To boost roleplay and make less Hostile Shootouts?

In saying that i think

3.1.1 needs to be changed to something like this/along the lines of
Traffic Stops - Players must comply with police in all general traffic stops, unless involved in a hostile situation that involves the player getting into a pursuit. This does not mean running from a traffic stop to initiate a pursuit.

Shams74709/10/2019
so you want to force them to stop and roleplay out the stop? not just run off?

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Yes, a good criminal won't get caught doing a stupid thing to bring heat on himself.

I'm suggesting changing that rule to state that or something along the lines of that. As well as adding the definition of the word Hostage to the rules.
Definition of hostage.  : A person that is involuntarily controlled by an outside influence.
IF we don't all agree it's fine, this is why i am suggesting it.

Shams74709/10/2019
if the cop doesn't know how to initiate a PROPER traffic stop then thats his own fault, we can't force the civs to roleplay a stop when they can damn well get away. I for one when making any kind traffic stop first thing i say is to turn the engine off and drop the window, if they're on a bike i make em get off and take their helmet, all things that happen IRL. We are not going to take it out on the civs for our police force being shit at their job, which is what it really is. If they pull over someone say in a boxter they should be calling for backup, if they don't and they run, then its on them
i've only had to use my tazer twice so far in a traffic stop where they tried to run away...both of them failed and served their time

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
That's the thing, tazer is still resulting in shooting. I have seen officers do exactly what you said, call back up get the vehicle to turn their engine off, they still run. I've seen Officer hit their lights on a car and straight away the car evades and takes off.  Let's not even bring Ninja's into the situation as 8/10 they see or hear a siren behind them they just take off. 9/10 traffic stops should result in the vehicle stopping not 4/10.

Ok so reword it to.

Players must comply with police in the initial traffic stop, unless involved in a hostile situation that involves the player getting into a pursuit.
That wording gives the player a chance and still forces them to start the traffic stop.

Shams74709/10/2019
this isn't going to fix the real issue, which is our highly untrained police force, all this is going to do is increase the HD sits over these trivial matters

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
You're right, what this does is assists in making sure the roleplay starts as it should, and then allows the roleplay to go on from there in what ever way it needs to. To balance both both need some restrictions, is that results in us making sure Civs are doing their part in promoting Roleplay so be it.

Our police force is highly untrained, as right now there are no departments so everyone is running rampant and doing what ever they feel like because they can as either there is to much for them to learn and they're not understanding or because there is so much to do they're working themselves too thin.

Police Departments worked when they were ran properly.

HWP - working on the highways, doing traffic stops, dealing with pursuits.
General Duties - Prisoner Transport, dealing with callouts, assisting in robberies. Assisting in Search and Rescue.
SRT - Assisting in Raids, Dealing with Robberies.
CID - Investigating people, Raiding houses and businesses,
Airwing - Assisting in Pursuits, assisting in Robberies, assisting in Raids, assisting in search and rescue, Working highways.

Anyways i have had my say, there is a lot of info for Isa to go over now lol. Sorry @Isa Fisher

Isa Fisher09/10/2019
your not sorry :P

I was trying to read it throughout the day but work was shit

BendaCat09/10/2019
Bit of healthy discussion, keep it up team

Caldweld09/10/2019
Its alright guys, Cabinet want to punish people for parking in the wrong bays

Shams74709/10/2019
:face_palm:

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
Lmfao

[OG] Rockwell09/10/2019
@Isa Fisher your input on our discussion earlier?

Isa Fisher09/11/2019
I have to re read it all but I am pretty sure I said no hostile RP at a traffic stop