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  493. <h1 class="post-title" itemprop="name">Vegan Mythbusting #1: Are Wild Animals Killed When Grain is Harvested for Vegans?</h1>
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  504. <p><em>The Vegan Mythbusting series uses science to debunk propaganda against veganism.</em></p>
  505. <p>As a vegan, I&rsquo;ve often heard the refrain that animals are killed when plant food is harvested &ndash; effectively, animal consumers indicate that vegans eat food whose production involves wholesale slaughter of small wildlife that lives on farms. And, as they argue, since harvesting grain kills a lot of rats, fawns and nestlings, and slaughtering a cow kills only one animal, vegans are responsible for more animal cruelty than meat eaters are.</p>
  506. <p>This, of course, is easy to refute, because most of the world&rsquo;s grain is fed to livestock, which means that the process of producing meat kills more mice, birds and insects, plus one cow or pig or chicken. But then meat eaters argue that they consume only &ldquo;grass-fed beef&rdquo; &ndash; cows raised on pastures, not fed on grain. &ldquo;Grass-fed&rdquo; beef is all the rage now. The fact of the matter is that the &ldquo;grass-fed&rdquo; label is nothing more than a vague, feel-good word for scamming consumers &ndash; right up there with &ldquo;farm-fresh&rdquo;, &ldquo;pure&rdquo;, &ldquo;humane&rdquo; and other make-believe nonsense. I&rsquo;d love to talk about how &ldquo;grass-fed&rdquo; cows are actually raised (hint: it&rsquo;s not all that different from &ldquo;grain-fed&rdquo; cows), and the impact this has on our environment. But that&rsquo;s something for another time.</p>
  507. <p>In this little post, I&#39;d like to have a chat with you about harvesting deaths. Is it true that producing grain kills lots of wildlife? And how much is &ldquo;lots&rdquo;? A few million? Thousands? Dozens? And where does this silly myth come from anyway?</p>
  508. <p>In terms of marketing tactics, the meat industry today is not all that different from the tobacco industry was in the 1950&rsquo;s. One of their Standard Operating Procedures is to commission &lsquo;scientific&rsquo; studies that paint a favorable picture of their industry, or to dig up independent studies that even vaguely support their business. They then use their financial resources to use media and advertising to promote them widely. Repeat a lie a few hundred times and it becomes a valid point of view. Repeat it a million times and you&rsquo;ll have yourself an irrefutable fact.</p>
  509. <p>In 2003, a guy named Steven Davis, who&rsquo;s an animal science professor at the Oregon State University, published a paper about the number of animals killed in producing crops, versus beef production. He didn&rsquo;t actually go out into the field and measure anything, oh no, no, no! He reviewed older, existing field studies, then performed some calculations using that data. To be specific, he used studies about the drop in the numbers of mice and other animals before and after a harvest. He then proceeded to declare that producing grain causes the deaths of lots and lots of critters, eating a diet of &ldquo;large herbivores&rdquo; (I think he meant cows, not rhinos) kills fewer animals than cultivating crops [Davis, 2003]. Predictably, the meat industry gobbled up that study faster than actors in their TV commercials hog down bacon strips. And they promoted it wherever they could, as often as they could. Soon, media as diverse as Time, NYT Magazine and Australian Broadcasting Corporation were writing about it. Why, they asked, is the life of a cow more important than the life of a harvest mouse?</p>
  510. <p>Well, scientists being scientists, decided to examine these claims more keenly. And ............ they found that the research is correct. There are a lot fewer wild animals on farms after a harvest, than before. Ouch!</p>
  511. <p>But wait a minute &ndash; how do we know that all those mice and voles and birds are dead? What if they are not? Did the scientists who did this research &ndash; the very same data that Davis used to announce that beef involves less cruelty than bread &ndash; try to find out what happened to those animals? The answer is, yes, they did. Let&rsquo;s have a round of applause for them.</p>
  512. <p>For one, Davis used a 1993 study by Tew and Macdonald. In 1992, T &amp; M had a fun time fitting tiny little radio collars to cute little, furry, brown, wood mice, whom they called Apodemus Sylvaticus, because that&rsquo;s their sciencey name. Not one or two, but 33 of them. That almost makes me want to quit my boring desk job and become a public-funded field researcher &ndash; now where&rsquo;s that shady back-alley shop that prints college diplomas?</p>
  513. <p>T &amp; M then set those 33 mice free to munch on grain, scurry, groom their fur, build nests, or whatever. All through the harvesting season, they tracked their rodent gang. Guess how many died in a grain harvester? One. One out of 33 &ndash; that&rsquo;s 3.3%. In other words, 96.67% of the mice on a harvested farm were not killed by cruel bladed machines. But 17 &ndash; that&rsquo;s almost 50% - were killed by other critters &ndash; owls and weasels, to be more specific. Their radio collars were found on carcasses, or chewed up in burrows, or as fancy new toys for owlets. Statistically speaking, harvesting machines had virtually no impact at all.</p>
  514. <p>It&rsquo;s interesting that Davis used this study and counted 18 dead mice, but didn&rsquo;t care to factor in that 17 had died of predation. The devil &ndash; the Vegan Devil (RAWR!) - is in the details.</p>
  515. <p>But why didn&rsquo;t harvester machines kill those mice? Common sense tells you and me that since mice have ears and eyes and whiskers, when they see a huge, loud machine heading their way, they bolt for their lives - a prudent and successful strategy. Mice have perfected the art of escaping faster and stealthier things than harvester machines. Sure, baby mice in nests, or the old and infirm can&rsquo;t do much, but most mice are quite adept at avoiding large, noisy things. However, since science does not place much stock in &ldquo;common sense&rdquo;, a team of six scientists in Argentina did research, just to be doubly sure [Cavia et al., 2005]. They measured the density of rodents on farms in central Argentina, as well as in forested areas around those farms, before and after harvests. They found that while the density of wildlife on farms was lower after the harvest, the numbers of animals in the forests had gone up significantly. That meant that when grain was harvested and their cover vanished, the animals abandoned the farms and moved to the shelter of forested areas close by.</p>
  516. <p>Does the Davis study need more refuting? Why not. Davis made another mistake in his calculations. He assumed that producing food for meat eaters and vegans uses the same area of land. In fact, raising animals requires vastly more land and water than cultivating plants does. On average, meat production uses 16 times more land than producing vegan food of equivalent nutrition. There goes the math.</p>
  517. <p>But all this arguing over harvester machines overlooks an important fact: most of the world&rsquo;s food production does not even use machines. You see, most of the world&rsquo;s farmers live in the developing world. They farm small areas of land, which makes mechanized farming cost-prohibitive. Most of the world&rsquo;s farmers plow their fields with water buffalo in Vietnam, oxen in India and donkeys in Kenya. Seeds are sown with rudimentary tools, pesticides are sprayed by hand pumps and irrigation channels are dug using picks and shovels. They use this produce to feed their families and sell the surplus at local farmer&rsquo;s markets. Let me put it another way: most of the plant food eaten by humans is farmed without using machines &ndash; no tractors for plowing, no aircraft for spraying chemicals, and no grain harvesters.</p>
  518. <p>Crops raised for feeding meat animals, on the other hand &hellip;</p>
  519. <p>&nbsp;</p>
  520. <p><strong>References:</strong></p>
  521. <ol>
  522. <li>ASPCA (2014). <a target="_blank" href="http://www.aspca.org/fight-cruelty/farm-animal-cruelty/what-factory-farm">What Is A Factory Farm?</a>&nbsp;</li>
  523. <li>Capper, J. L. (2011). <a target="_blank" href="http://agron-www.agron.iastate.edu/Courses/agron515/Historical%20vs%20modern%20footprint.pdf">Replacing rose-tinted spectacles with a high-powered microscope</a>: The historical versus modern carbon footprint of animal agriculture. Animal Frontiers, 1(1), 26-32.</li>
  524. <li>Cavia, R., Villafa&ntilde;e, I. E. G., Cittadino, E. A., Bilenca, D. N., Mi&ntilde;o, M. H., &amp; Busch, M. (2005). Effects of cereal harvest on abundance and spatial distribution of the rodent Akodon azarae in central Argentina. Agriculture, ecosystems &amp; environment, 107(1), 95-99.</li>
  525. <li>Davis, S. L. (2003). The least harm principle may require that humans consume a diet containing large herbivores, not a vegan diet. Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics, 16(4), 387-394.</li>
  526. <li>FAO (2012). &ldquo;<a target="_blank" href="http://www.fao.org/docrep/016/i3027e/i3027e00.htm">The State of Food Insecurity in the World</a>&rdquo;. Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations. Rome, 2012.&nbsp;</li>
  527. <li>Lamey, A. (2007). Food fight! Davis versus Regan on the ethics of eating beef. Journal of Social Philosophy, 38(2), 331-348.</li>
  528. <li>Matheny, G. (2003). Least harm: A defense of vegetarianism from Steven Davis&#39;s omnivorous proposal. Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics, 16(5), 505-511.</li>
  529. <li>Tew, T. E., &amp; Macdonald, D. W. (1993). The effects of harvest on arable wood mice Apodemus sylvaticus. Biological Conservation, 65(3), 279-283.</li>
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  680. <div class="comment-body">Awesome post! Love your writing style! It&#39;s a pleasure to read and I voted, as well as hooked up to read anything else you write. Something on Grass Fed Beef next? Informative, and gave me some good arguments to share with folks who tell me what I kill because of my diet. Thank you!</div>
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  760.  
  761. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/5409">sejal</a></address>
  762. <time class="date">November 12, 2014, 1:45 pm</time>
  763.  
  764. <div class="comment-body">Thanks for a great myth-buster. would you also help me bust this?
  765.  
  766. &quot;Ploughing and harvesting kill small mammals, snakes, lizards and other animals in vast numbers. In addition, millions of mice are poisoned in grain storage facilities every year.
  767.  
  768. However, the largest and best-researched loss of sentient life is the poisoning of mice during plagues.&quot; - <a href="http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/ordering-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-your-hands" target="_blank">http://www.iflscience.com<wbr>/plants-and-animals<wbr>/ordering-vegetarian-meal-there-s-more-animal-blood-your-hands</a></div>
  769.  
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  774.  
  775. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=13863" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
  776.  
  777.  
  778.  
  779.  
  780. <ol class="comments">
  781.  
  782. <li class="comment" id="comment13871">
  783. <figure class="author-thumb">
  784. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">
  785.  
  786. <i class="fa fa-user"></i>
  787.  
  788. </a>
  789. </figure>
  790.  
  791. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  792. <time class="date">November 15, 2014, 2:30 am</time>
  793.  
  794. <div class="comment-body">Haha, I&#39;ve seen that article. What&#39;s hilarious is that IFL Science closed comments within ONE day of posting that article. ONE. Just goes to show how much confidence / sense of integrity that IFLS have about something posted on their site.
  795.  
  796. Websites often try to bait vocal communities like vegans (and in the past, homosexuals, racial minorities, etc.) in order to gain web traffic. What IFLS doesn&#39;t see is that by allowing scientifically hollow articles on their site and then blocking comments, they are only ruining their reputation before it takes off.
  797.  
  798. I&#39;ve already addressed harvesting in this article. As for lizards and snakes being killed in &quot;vast numbers&quot; during ploughing ... well, they have to PROVE it before I can disprove it. Where are the statistics, numbers to back this up?
  799.  
  800. As for mice being poisoned in storage facilities and to manage plagues ... mice feed on the stored grain. What is most of this grain used for? For feeding to animals. On an average, 70% of the world&#39;s grain is fed to livestock. Keep in mind that highly populated parts of the world, where people eat a lot of grain, bring the AVERAGE down. I don&#39;t have any numbers for Australia but considering that it is a country with low human population and high meat production (mostly for export), the percentage of grain fed to livestock must be significantly higher.
  801.  
  802. It&#39;s also important to keep in mind that the numbers quoted in the article are skewed because they are describing the Australian scene. Mice breed in vast numbers in Australia because they are an invasive species, meaning that other animals have not evolved over a long period of time to compete with mice or to hunt them. It&#39;s not true for the rest of the world, where a vast array of predators hunt rodents. It&#39;s also important to keep in mind that cows and sheep are also an invasive species in Australia. :) And they do more damage to the Australian ecosystem than rodents do. </div>
  803.  
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  809. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=13871" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  814. </li>
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  822. </a>
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  824.  
  825. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  826. <time class="date">November 21, 2014, 7:16 am</time>
  827.  
  828. <div class="comment-body">Sejal, a writer named Joanna Schlosser has written this amazing rebuttal to that sham of an article. There are a bunch of links at the bottom of her post that will serve as excellent references for you:
  829.  
  830. <a href="http://www.theflamingvegan.com/view-post/A-Response-to-the-Article-Ordering-the-Vegetarian-Meal-There-s-More-Animal-Blood-on-Your-H" target="_blank">http://www.theflamingvegan.com<wbr>/view-post<wbr>/A-Response-to-the-Article-Ordering-the-Vegetarian-Meal-There-s-More-Animal-Blood-on-Your-H</a></div>
  831.  
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  837. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=13912" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  857. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  858. <time class="date">November 15, 2014, 2:41 am</time>
  859.  
  860. <div class="comment-body">For your reference: This page also has some excellent data - <a href="http://www.animalvisuals.org/projects/data/1mc" target="_blank">http://www.animalvisuals.org<wbr>/projects<wbr>/data<wbr>/1mc</a></div>
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  866.  
  867. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=13872" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  882.  
  883. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  884. <time class="date">July 22, 2015, 6:39 pm</time>
  885.  
  886. <div class="comment-body">They&#39;re not excellent. Or do you think quantity is better than quality and calories are better than nutrients? You ignore that the vast majority of health problems come from plant products rather than animal products. Why? Plants don&#39;t want animals eatan them so they develop defenses that harm or kill their predators.
  887.  
  888. Neither did this hýpervolic editorial refute Davis&#39;s work. It shouldn&#39;t matter what the animal killers were.
  889.  
  890. Vegans cannot eat cattle feed, and the earth cannot support vegan crops. Vegans keep in their bubble where their food is imported and nutrients added as they can&#39;t simply grow anything anywhere.
  891.  
  892. This whole story ignores the insects killed, and those that wind up in food. There is no such thing as a vegan fruit or vegan crop unless you grow everything yourself in a bubble, pollinate it yourself, and fertilize it yourself with minerals.
  893.  
  894. What would vegans do if they found rabbits, swine, or moths in their crops?</div>
  895.  
  896. <span class="comment-functions">
  897. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=14614" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  898. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=14614" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  899. </span>
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  902.  
  903. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=14614" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  919. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/8821">Bazalldred</a></address>
  920. <time class="date">February 10, 2018, 11:28 am</time>
  921.  
  922. <div class="comment-body">I agree its very unlikely that no animal products will end up in your cornflakes in fact it useds to say guaranteed to contain less tga O01% animal products on the packet ( cornflakes was just an example if a grain product .The claim by vegans that &quot; they don&#39;t eat anything other than vegetables nuts etc (plant products ) is ridiculous as is the claim that no creature is harmed by harvesting them</div>
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  945. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  946. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 4:50 am</time>
  947.  
  948. <div class="comment-body">Were you born this stupid, or did your diet infect you with cognitive dissonance? No vegan claims that no animal is harmed by our diets. What we do claim - correctly - that a plant-based diet is the least harmful for animals, the environment and the world&#39;s climate. Please do not make up stuff in your own head. Shut up and speak with a few vegans before prattling your nonsense about them.</div>
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  955. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16026" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  971. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  972. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 8:11 am</time>
  973.  
  974. <div class="comment-body">It&#39;s not the least harmful for those who eat it like nonruminants. Anupam? You&#39;re Indian. As I wrote in my YouTube comment I pasted below, Indians are mostly vegetarians and as a result they die 20 years earlier (of heart disease) than the French who eat rich foods of animal muscle, offal, and milk products. You are completely deluded and dishonest and all liars like you need to be genocided. You also harm the climate and environment more. It takes 9000 miles to transport coconuts between Oceania and America when healthy saturated fats (not palmitin) could be gotten locally from animals.</div>
  975.  
  976. <span class="comment-functions">
  977. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16033" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  978. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16033" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  979. </span>
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  983. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16033" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  999. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1000. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 6:00 pm</time>
  1001.  
  1002. <div class="comment-body">Firstly, Indians are mostly meat eaters, not vegetarians, you blithering fool. Try not to prattle about a place you know nothing about. Also, the average life expectancy in India is explained by the fact that it&#39;s a developing country. The Maasai and Inuit consume more meat than Western Europeans and yet die in their 30s and 40s - how do you explain their lifespans, you stupid keyboard warrior? It&#39;s easy to run your mouth when you&#39;re behind a screen; try talking about genocide to someone in real life, and you&#39;ll get slapped like a pinata.</div>
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  1009. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16037" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1025. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1026. <time class="date">February 12, 2018, 12:19 am</time>
  1027.  
  1028. <div class="comment-body">Vegetarians are meat eaters, fucktard. I told you two times already. Plants are meat. Animal meat is flesh; plant meat is pith. Nuts, fruits, sweets; sweetmeats, minced meat; none of these are animal but all are meat. Now learn the English.
  1029.  
  1030. Where do you get that Indians are mostly not vegetarian? If they cheat or eat some animal more seldomly than the Okinawans or if they drink milk?
  1031.  
  1032. The developing country excuse could work if Indians died from infections, starvation, drugs, predators, pollution, or accidents but no they die from heart disease. How can one compare Inuits and Maasai to Indians? By habit you rely on imaginary arguments that disprove your premises: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit#Suicide,_murder,_and_death" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org<wbr>/wiki<wbr>/Inuit#Suicide,_murder,_and_death</a> <a href="http://google.com/search?q=Maasai+%22life+expectancy%22+OR+%22lifespan%22" target="_blank">http://google.com<wbr>/search?q=Maasai+%22life+expectancy%22+OR+%22lifespan%22</a>.</div>
  1033.  
  1034. <span class="comment-functions">
  1035. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16041" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1036. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16041" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  1037. </span>
  1038.  
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  1041. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16041" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1073. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1074. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 4:55 am</time>
  1075.  
  1076. <div class="comment-body">If wheat, soy and corn are merely &quot;cattle feed&quot;, perhaps you should never eat another sandwich, burger, taco or energy bar. Boo hoo, insects are killed ... and apparently they are not killed by habitat loss, harvesting, pesticides etc. when 10 times more land is used to raise the same calorific value of meat? Last I checked, all recent food &quot;scandals&quot; happened when touchy carnists like you whined about insects, horse meat, mice, feathers etc. being found in your precious fast food. Please eat another steak and die early.</div>
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  1083. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16027" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1099. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1100. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 8:06 am</time>
  1101.  
  1102. <div class="comment-body">I never said they&#39;re &quot;merely&quot; cattle feed but they include cattle feed. The ruminant cattle can digest what humans can&#39;t, but you were too stupid to understand how nutrition and farming work. No, it takes more land, fertilizer, irrigation, and fuel to grow crops for vegetarians than for omnivores. You didn&#39;t listen you retarded liar.
  1103.  
  1104. I&#39;m not a &quot;carnist&quot; but omnivore. The real scandals are when norovirus, soil bacteria, antinutrients, carcinogens from plants kill.
  1105.  
  1106. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU-ThsSYK1A&amp;lc=UgyA0ZTDfFg2BQGphlh4AaABAg" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com<wbr>/watch?v=bU-ThsSYK1A&amp;lc=UgyA0ZTDfFg2BQGphlh4AaABAg</a>
  1107. In case another vegan thread gets deleted:
  1108.  
  1109. <a href="https://www.you?tube.com/watch?v=bU-ThsSYK1A&amp;lc=z23vfzgrutvthnawt04t1aokgl2iccnylze3t50xl415rk0h00410.1504928599369429" target="_blank">https://www.you?tube.com<wbr>/watch?v=bU-ThsSYK1A&amp;lc=z23vfzgrutvthnawt04t1aokgl2iccnylze3t50xl415rk0h00410.1504928599369429</a>
  1110. &quot;Amanda N.K Where did you learn abbreviations? Go back to class.
  1111. Livestock are not bred to be brainy; that said lapdogs aren&#39;t brainy as well. See how the Jack Russell terrier does with the blanket test. What and when does that factory farming footage apply to? Factories are not essential. They still treat animals better than how wild animals do who torture their prey for hours or leave them half eaten. Farmers/ranchers stun (unless they&#39;re Abrahamist) then kill instantly so they don&#39;t suffer.
  1112.  
  1113. Veganism is completely fake: Everyone needs dung and bees for crops as well as pest control to kill intentionally and combine harvesters to kill accidentally. The fossil fuels spent to transport foods from tropical, marine, and volcanic environments rather than livestock who turn local nonfood cellulose into food glycoprotein mean vegetarianism takes more land and resources than omnivory, as certain foods only grow in certain places and it&#39;d take intensive mining and petroleum conversion to make the fertilizer to raise human crops, as humans can&#39;t digest the cattle feed that grows there. It depends on monocultures that deplete biodiversity and the soil; it drives out native plants and animals; whereas for omnivory man ensures important plant and animal species don&#39;t go extinct. Livestock are carbon negative compared to vegetarianism. Vegetarianism cannot be sustained beyond a village.
  1114.  
  1115. The studies and the government define red meat as muscle, so fish, chicken, and pork still count, whereas nonmuscle offal like liver, marrow, kidney, and egg don&#39;t. The government red meat studies were fraudulently presented as they even admit it was the heat, plant oil and accompaniment, and mineral or vegetal nitrites that caused the cancer, not the red meat or flesh itself.
  1116.  
  1117. Vegetarianism shall shorten your life by 20 years. Compare the lifespan of India and France. Women who eat less saturated fat die early. Saturated fat, other than palmitin, turns into HDL whereas starches, sugars, unsaturated fats, and palmitin turn into VLDL and LDL. Animal nutrients cannot be gotten from plant nutrients; the best you can do is make them with bacteria or fungi. The only benefit to vegetarianism is the variety of fibre, but that can be gotten from shellfish and insects. The plants make provitamins (not the same as vitamins) which can&#39;t be digested by all and antinutrients (like phytates, lectins, oxalates, tannins, carbonates) that leach minerals which caused 100,000s of deaths by rickets, pellagra, and beriberi. Look at all these dead vegan babies and their parents who got life in prison for infanticide: <a href="http://www.i-nhs.com/inhs/diet-veganbaby.html" target="_blank">http://www.i-nhs.com<wbr>/inhs<wbr>/diet-veganbaby.html</a>.
  1118.  
  1119. <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioxidant" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org<wbr>/wiki<wbr>/Antioxidant</a>
  1120. &quot;Diets high in fruit and vegetables, and so possibly being rich in antioxidant vitamins, have no established effect on status of health or aging&quot;
  1121.  
  1122. nutrients &quot;vegans&quot; don&#39;t get: retinol, carnitine, saturated fat, cobalamin, cholecalciferol, copper and zinc, menaquinone-4, sphingomyelin, sphingosine, carnosine
  1123.  
  1124. carcinogens &quot;vegans&quot; do get: PAHs, acrylamide, acetaldehyde, aflatoxin, nitrites&quot;</div>
  1125.  
  1126. <span class="comment-functions">
  1127. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16032" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1128. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16032" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  1129. </span>
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  1133. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16032" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1149. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1150. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 6:09 pm</time>
  1151.  
  1152. <div class="comment-body">First - vegans get all nutrients that the body needs. The babies who died, died because they were not nursed by their mothers. Every mammalian baby needs its mother&#39;s milk in early days. The parents who didn&#39;t do this were not vegan; they were merely irresponsible and unfit to be parents. Also, it is well-documented that veganism consumes a fraction of the resources as eating local - even accounting for fossil fuel consumption. There are many studies to prove this and I&#39;ve listed them in another of my posts (go troll that one too). What are you going to do about the fact that veganism is now mainstream and plant-based meat and dairy is replacing your precious animal corpses? Nothing - you&#39;ll eat whatever&#39;s available in the grocery aisles, irrespective of whether they&#39;ve replaced gelatin, milk or lard with plant ingredients. And 10 years from now, you&#39;ll still be whining about the unfairness of vegans while you live in the world and eat the food that we are creating.</div>
  1153.  
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  1159. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16038" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1166. <li class="comment" id="comment16042">
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  1175. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1176. <time class="date">February 12, 2018, 12:35 am</time>
  1177.  
  1178. <div class="comment-body">First, vegans don&#39;t exist. Unless you grow your own crops, supply mineral fertilizer, supply your own land, and screen your crops from pests, you still need bees, dung, and pest control. You didn&#39;t read my comment you deluded arsehole. Callan yourself vegan doesn&#39;t make you one, nor if you simply try not to kill any animals. You&#39;re simply vegetarian. You need fungal, bacterial, mineral supplements that are compounded to nonamine (nonvitamin, nonprotein, nonamino acid) groups, unlike animal sources, like carbonate, gluconate, chloride, citrate, sulfate that don&#39;t digest and absorb well. Why do Silk add chalk to their almond gruel? All the fake milks and supplement drinks put chalk or other crap in them for the retards who can&#39;t taste any better. ... Again you prove you did not read my resources. The dead babies /were/ nursed by their mothers who did not eat animals or drink milk. You piece of shit liar. And the resource studies that I did read did not mention transportation costs. Everything you believe in is a fantasy, like theists and creationists, and all of ye shall collapse.</div>
  1179.  
  1180. <span class="comment-functions">
  1181. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16042" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1182. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16042" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
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  1223. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/5487">cckelsey</a></address>
  1224. <time class="date">December 6, 2014, 2:18 pm</time>
  1225.  
  1226. <div class="comment-body">I think there is another element behind the propaganda campaigns that isn&#39;t being registered by the bulk of the collective. Not only are social and physical scientists who are on the take attempting to mess with people who are onto data that would help them make wiser choices, they&#39;re also performing duties to try and help those who are also on the take (yet at lower levels of knowledge, a decent proportion of which is corrupt - yet they don&#39;t know which parts) maintain a delusion about the malevolence they&#39;re involved in before they&#39;ve gotten more crooked by climbing the pyramid scheme.
  1227. If you&#39;re on the take and you know your cult pyramid is profiting off of the slaughter based food industry and then you&#39;re confronted by the vegan and vegetarian phenomena, its a really convenient call to buy when a higher up suggests to you, &quot;Guess what, those who are adopting a vegan and vegetarian diet are secretly slaughtering more animals than those directly facilitating meat consumption, they&#39;re being bad and they don&#39;t know it, you&#39;re the really good angel, go get another steak, can you buy it?&quot;
  1228. &quot;Yes I can buy it!&quot;
  1229. And that&#39;s how the telephone system turns you into a monster.
  1230. The problem is that those who are buying those calls seem to have a logical processing component effectively cut out of them and can&#39;t comprehend that its their worst enemy that is deliberately giving them bad information, so the second that higher up gets caught in a lie and you ask them, &quot;Why didn&#39;t you tell us that study involved the mice dying from natural predators?&quot; Then it becomes, &quot;Well I had to give you this misinformation at that point to maneuver you to a position where you&#39;re now ready for more accurate data, can you buy it?&quot;
  1231. &quot;I can buy it!&quot; </div>
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  1254. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6252">jay</a></address>
  1255. <time class="date">August 2, 2015, 8:35 pm</time>
  1256.  
  1257. <div class="comment-body">You are picking on the incidental killing of an occasional animal and ignoring the actual intentional slaughter of many more. Just because the soy is harvested, doesn&#39;t mean the death toll has peaked.
  1258. <a href="http://timzimmermann.com/2014/11/07/counterarguments-do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters/" target="_blank">http://timzimmermann.com<wbr>/2014<wbr>/11<wbr>/07<wbr>/counterarguments-do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters<wbr>/</a></div>
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  1281. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6252">jay</a></address>
  1282. <time class="date">August 2, 2015, 8:35 pm</time>
  1283.  
  1284. <div class="comment-body">You are picking on the incidental killing of an occasional animal and ignoring the actual intentional slaughter of many more. Just because the soy is harvested, doesn&#39;t mean the death toll has peaked.
  1285. <a href="http://timzimmermann.com/2014/11/07/counterarguments-do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters/" target="_blank">http://timzimmermann.com<wbr>/2014<wbr>/11<wbr>/07<wbr>/counterarguments-do-vegetarians-kill-more-animals-than-meat-eaters<wbr>/</a></div>
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  1299. <li class="comment" id="comment15072">
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  1307.  
  1308. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6992">LouBricano</a></address>
  1309. <time class="date">March 23, 2016, 10:00 am</time>
  1310.  
  1311. <div class="comment-body">There are so many problems with your argument. First of all, it&#39;s not &quot;an occasional animal&quot; that is killed in crop farming. There are millions. Secondly, the fact that you try to wave it away as &quot;incidental&quot; is vile. It isn&#39;t necessary to kill any animals &quot;incidentally,&quot; but no farmer takes any steps to avoid it...and you don&#39;t care. Third, a lot of animal death surrounding vegetable agriculture is deliberate, not incidental. Animals are wantonly slaughtered as pests, both at farms and at food storage and processing facilities.
  1312.  
  1313. The issue surrounding so-called collateral animal deaths in agriculture is not a numeric comparison. The issue is that the &quot;vegan&quot; claim to be &quot;cruelty free&quot; is thoroughly falsified by animal CDs.</div>
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  1336. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7564">vmorello</a></address>
  1337. <time class="date">September 30, 2016, 9:07 am</time>
  1338.  
  1339. <div class="comment-body">Have you ever actually stopped to look at animal agriculture and the conditions those animals live and die in (yes, your precious ~grass-fed~ ones too)? It&#39;s rich for someone who doesn&#39;t scruple to feed on their overbred and tortured flesh to call something &#39;vile&#39; ...</div>
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  1361.  
  1362. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/8023">NoOneCaresLOL</a></address>
  1363. <time class="date">March 26, 2017, 11:09 am</time>
  1364.  
  1365. <div class="comment-body">It&#39;s vile because it&#39;s excusing something you all are supposedly so vehemently against and calling it incidental, it&#39;s like calling civilian casualties collateral damage in a war. We aren&#39;t the ones claiming that our food is cruelty free. We know animals die for our food, obviously. </div>
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  1372. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=15714" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1388. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1389. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 4:59 am</time>
  1390.  
  1391. <div class="comment-body">It&#39;s hard to take someone seriously when their ID is &quot;NoOneCaresLOL&quot;. What&#39;s hilarious is that people like you are upset that someone is not as lazy as you and is trying their best to be responsible, conscientious and righteous ... you know, all the things that adults are expected to do. Grow up, weirdo.</div>
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  1414. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1415. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 8:13 am</time>
  1416.  
  1417. <div class="comment-body">Ageist, shrink down. Virtues don&#39;t belong to &quot;adults&quot; when most criminals are.</div>
  1418.  
  1419. <span class="comment-functions">
  1420. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16034" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1421. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16034" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
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  1462. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6307">ChrisS</a></address>
  1463. <time class="date">August 16, 2015, 7:31 pm</time>
  1464.  
  1465. <div class="comment-body">Overall a logical piece, but you forgot one piece of the puzzle. There are both direct (killed by harvesting machinery) and indirect sources of mortality. In article you reference the rate of predation increases during / post harvest. If you have ever visited an ag field post harvest, or a recent prairie that has been burned prescriptively, you will notice that predators like hawks show up quickly to take advantage of now exposed small critters (rodents, snakes, etc.). Essentially harvesting the crop causes the mortality (indirectly).
  1466.  
  1467. From the paper&#39;s abstract:
  1468.  
  1469. &quot;The process of harvesting itself had little direct effect on the mice, but the removal of the cover afforded by the crop greatly increased predation pressure on the mice. After harvest, mice either emigrated from the arable ecosystem or reduced activity. Nevertheless, over half (17 of 32) of the mice radio-collared before harvest were taken by predators in the FIRST WEEK following harvest [- an indirect effect of the harvest].&quot;
  1470.  
  1471. We should really stop auguring over what is &#39;best&#39; (being a vegan vs. vegetarian vs. omnivore) and go after the real issue... overpopulation. All dietary choices negatively impact the environment in an unsustainable way given current human population size and reproductive rates.
  1472.  
  1473. - The Non-breeder</div>
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  1487. <li class="comment" id="comment14676">
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  1496. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1497. <time class="date">August 17, 2015, 4:20 am</time>
  1498.  
  1499. <div class="comment-body">Hi - although population is a cause of most environmental problems, I think that the problem is not the numbers of people, per se, but a per capita consumption of resources. For instance, the average American consumes 250 times our planet&#39;s resources as the average Somalian.
  1500.  
  1501. My second problem with saying &quot;population is the real crisis&quot; is that it deflects attention from important problems that are under our control, to what isn&#39;t under our control in the short term. No matter what we do, our world&#39;s population is not going to reverse overnight, or even over a decade.
  1502.  
  1503. So rather than simply fretting over populations (which doesn&#39;t fix anything), we should be focusing on what lifestyle choices consume the fewest of our world&#39;s resources, thereby minimizing the impact of our population. Between the three diets you mentioned: &quot;vegan, vegetarian and omnivore&quot;, it&#39;s a no-brainer which dietary choice is the best for our environment - the vegan one.
  1504.  
  1505. The problem with including predation as a consequence of harvesting is that there&#39;s really no way to measure it. As another study showed, the numbers of animals in nearby wild areas increases dramatically following a harvest. So if an owl hunted a vole, did the vole die because he lost cover in the field, or because there was a higher density of voles in the nearby forest? That said, the majority of grain cultivated worldwide is fed to livestock, so the most straightforward way of reducing deaths from post-harvest predation is to reduce the frequency and scale of harvests, i.e. stop livestock farming. </div>
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  1528. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1529. <time class="date">August 21, 2015, 5:44 pm</time>
  1530.  
  1531. <div class="comment-body">That was the same thing you said the last time and it&#39;s still wrong. Plant diets kill and harm humans and the environment.</div>
  1532.  
  1533. <span class="comment-functions">
  1534. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=14689" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1535. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=14689" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  1536. </span>
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  1547. <li class="comment" id="comment14705">
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  1556. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6307">ChrisS</a></address>
  1557. <time class="date">August 30, 2015, 4:41 pm</time>
  1558.  
  1559. <div class="comment-body">The issue is a combination of the numbers of people and per capita consumption. And certainly an individual has control over whether or not he/she reproduces. Your same argument can be used against a vegan diet, &quot;[diet] is not going to reverse overnight, or even over a decade.&quot; Doesn&#39;t mean we shouldn&#39;t confront the problem IMO (both consumption and overpopulation). How many children do you have?
  1560.  
  1561. It is actually relatively easy to test the indirect effect of predation. Have you taking a scientific methods or wildlife biology course? Just because you do not know how doesn&#39;t mean it is not possible.
  1562.  
  1563. We can agree on this, &quot;That said, the majority of grain cultivated worldwide is fed to livestock... &quot;</div>
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  1586. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1587. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 5:01 am</time>
  1588.  
  1589. <div class="comment-body">ChrisS: You wrote &quot; It is actually relatively easy to test the indirect effect of predation. Have you taking a scientific methods or wildlife biology course? Just because you do not know how doesn&#39;t mean it is not possible.&quot; Maybe you could have offered sources or explained how indirect effects can be measured, instead of trying to fault my excellent research. For the record, I do not have children. But even if I did, my whole family would consume fewer resources than a single, childless meat-eater.</div>
  1590.  
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  1612. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1613. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 8:16 am</time>
  1614.  
  1615. <div class="comment-body">You mean fewer nutrients and should, not would. And you do eat meat, fucktard. Plant meat is pith; animal meat is flesh.</div>
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  1618. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16035" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
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  1640. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1641. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 6:12 pm</time>
  1642.  
  1643. <div class="comment-body">Ah, so at least by that rationale, you admit that plant-based meat is meat, and plant-based dairy is dairy. But mark my words, alysdexia - if you swear or use abusive language ONE MORE TIME - just once more - I will delete all your comments on all my articles. Every single one of them. All your time spent writing them over all these years (not that you have anything better to do) will go down the drain and cease to exist. I dare you to run your mouth again and see if I am bluffing.</div>
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  1666. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1667. <time class="date">February 12, 2018, 12:40 am</time>
  1668.  
  1669. <div class="comment-body">Every food is meat so it doesn&#39;t matter if one refers to plant-based meat is meat as it&#39;s redundant. There is no plant-based diary, unless diary means not milk but something to do with douh, as the word diary looks nothing like milk. These semantic distinctions don&#39;t help your case in any way and your threat only distracts from your nonarguments. Censorship means that you lost. will -&gt; shall. I wouldn&#39;t censor you unless you post spam. But the demented and deranged moderate and censor their comments so they don&#39;t need to face criticism.</div>
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  1672. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16043" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
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  1718. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6992">LouBricano</a></address>
  1719. <time class="date">March 23, 2016, 9:47 am</time>
  1720.  
  1721. <div class="comment-body">It&#39;s not a myth. The irrefutable fact is, animals indeed die in the course of producing vegetables and fruits that &quot;vegans&quot; consume, so the &quot;vegan&quot; claim to be living a &quot;cruelty free &#39;lifestyle&#39; [sic]&quot; is debunked.
  1722.  
  1723. So now we move on to a comparison of numbers - the &quot;counting game,&quot; as it were. I imagine the typical &quot;vegan&quot; causes fewer animals to die than the typical omnivore. However, merely abstaining from meat and other animal products is no guarantee of that. It is perfectly plausible, even if admittedly unlikely, that some &quot;vegan&quot; consumes a relatively high-harm diet, while some conscientious omnivore consumes a lower-harm diet. Merely excluding meat and other animal products from the diet cannot, by itself, give a definitive answer.
  1724.  
  1725. In my experience arguing with &quot;vegans&quot; - more than 20 years of it - their arguments involve successive retreats to weaker and weaker positions, ultimately ending up at a vile, ethically empty one. We&#39;ve seen that the initial claim of virtually all &quot;vegans&quot; - to be living a &quot;cruelty free &#39;lifestyle&#39; [sic]&quot; - is demolished. The first retreat is to a claim to be &quot;minimizing&quot; harm to animals. That claim is false. In order to be minimizing something, you must measure and count, and no &quot;vegan&quot; does that. If you haven&#39;t attempted to measure the harm to animals caused by various vegetable and fruit crops, and then choose only from those that cause the least harm, then you aren&#39;t minimizing, except possibly by sheer luck. No one does that, anywhere, and as not all &quot;vegans&quot; eat the same diet, then necessarily some &quot;vegans&quot; are causing more harm than others. Abstaining from meat does not - CANNOT - mean minimizing harm to animals. Let&#39;s proceed.
  1726.  
  1727. The next, weaker claim from &quot;vegans&quot;, after they abandon &quot;cruelty free&quot; and &quot;minimizing&quot; - as they are forced by the facts to do - is to claim to be &quot;doing the best I can.&quot; That&#39;s also false, largely for the same reasons as the &quot;minimizing&quot; claim is shown to be false. If you haven&#39;t spent one second trying to identify the least-harm fruits and vegetables, how can you possibly be &quot;doing the best you can?&quot; You&#39;re not.
  1728.  
  1729. Okay, so we&#39;ve abandoned &quot;cruelty free&quot;, &quot;minimizing&quot; and &quot;doing the best I can&quot; - once again, forced to abandon them by the cold, hard facts. So, what&#39;s left? What&#39;s left is to claim (false) virtue based on a comparison with people you started out by demonizing: &quot;At least I&#39;m doing better than you bastard meat eaters.&quot; However, virtue never consists in a comparison with others. Virtue consists only in doing what is right - holding and acting on principles, rather than merely following a rule. You cannot claim to be virtuous based on doing less of something you claim is inherently evil; the only position of virtue is not to do it at all.
  1730.  
  1731. Suppose your brother viciously beats and sexually abuses the small child next door 10 times per week, and you do it &quot;only&quot; five times per week. Are you &quot;more virtuous&quot; than your brother? No! The only virtue with regard to that is NEVER to do it. Now suppose your brother increases his predation on the poor child to 13 times per week, and you increase yours to six. Your brother&#39;s has gone up by 30%, while yours has increased &quot;only&quot; 20%. Is your degree of virtue relative to your brother even higher now? That&#39;s patently absurd.
  1732.  
  1733. You can substitute harm to animals in place of violent sexual abuse of children and get the same result. Suppose your omnivorous brother causes exactly 10 animal deaths per week, and you cause &quot;only&quot; five; substitute any numbers you want, as long as your death toll is greater than zero, because we know it is. Now increase both death tolls, but increase your own by a smaller percentage than his. Are you now even more virtuous than your brother, because while the number of animals you cause to die increased, at least it increased by a smaller percentage than his? By the filthy, sanctimonious logic of &quot;veganism&quot;, that&#39;s exactly what you would conclude. It&#39;s wrong.
  1734.  
  1735. &quot;veganism&quot; is not a coherent ethical response to anything. All it is is following an empty rule, and virtue never consists in following rules, but only in doing what is right. If causing harm to animals is wrong, then you ought not to do any of it. If it isn&#39;t absolutely wrong, deontologically speaking, but instead is merely undesirable in a utilitarian sense, then you&#39;d damned well better make more effort truly to know how much harm you cause, and take serious steps to reduce it. But no &quot;vegan&quot; wants to do that, and no &quot;vegan&quot; does it - all they do is abstain from meat, and pronounce themselves &quot;better.&quot; That&#39;s loathsome.</div>
  1736.  
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  1742. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=15071" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1758. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7504">thestingrayrivera</a></address>
  1759. <time class="date">September 8, 2016, 7:22 am</time>
  1760.  
  1761. <div class="comment-body">This response is loathsome. So you have no debunked veganism by arguing with them for over 20 years. And your theory is that because animals still get killed by vegans, that veganism is now dismissed because the ones you argued with, did nothing else to &quot;do their best&quot;. What a joke.
  1762.  
  1763. So now let me guess...because you have now dismissed veganism in YOUR OWN MIND..it is now ethical and morally ok to use animals however we please, abuse and farm them for profits? This makes all of this ok right? Logical fallacy maybe? Vegans kill animals, ok fine. But that makes everything else ok right. Let&#39;s not forget the medical and science side of how animal products are not very healthy at all.
  1764.  
  1765. Even if animals are killed through ag, that does not mean much really. It does not negate the facts of why people are not supporting cruelty and slaughter. You can disprove it all you want, but I and most other vegans just simply will not contribute to the farming atrocities and the lies of the meat and dairy industry. I grew up with animals all my life. I made the connection early on in life, so I am totally happy with my decisions. Yout opinions here don&#39;t change a thing and that is the truth. </div>
  1766.  
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  1788. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7550">Ollie</a></address>
  1789. <time class="date">September 27, 2016, 1:32 am</time>
  1790.  
  1791. <div class="comment-body">Health claims about vegan diets being healthier than meat based ones are simply untrue.. And that comes from someone who actually reads the studies, not just what people regurgitate on blog posts.
  1792. How about staying on the subject instead of &quot;Oh well, it&#39;s unhealthy anyways!&quot;. That just makes the rest of your post must less effective and meaningful.
  1793. I personally think that it&#39;s bad to use the argument that animals die no matter what to endulge in eating meat.
  1794. But he man never said that. So you are just making a strawman here.
  1795. Furthermore, because you are so obsessed to be able to win an argument you dismiss animal killing done by vegans with just a handwave: &quot;Vegans kill animals, ok fine&quot;.
  1796. Clearly you care more about winning arguments on the internet than whether animals die or not. And that is pretty pathetic.</div>
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  1819. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7821">Lzer0</a></address>
  1820. <time class="date">January 5, 2017, 2:35 pm</time>
  1821.  
  1822. <div class="comment-body">I have read &quot;the studies&quot; too, and if you have actually researched unbiasedly then you have to admit that there is good research being done that supports both positions here. To come on here and insinuate that a healthy vegan diet is &quot;simply untrue&quot; is &quot;simply untrue.&quot;
  1823. </div>
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  1850. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1851. <time class="date">October 12, 2016, 6:03 am</time>
  1852.  
  1853. <div class="comment-body">Why do you call yourself a stingray when stingrays are carnivores?
  1854.  
  1855. Morals are subjective but do you notice the modern world settles on fast relations with other species that you should take for advise on its common morals? Man wipes out certain animals, eats certain animals, employs certain animals, befriends certain animals, and leaves certain animals alone. Animal clades cannot interchange. What would you do if hogs, rabbits, and moths tore up your fields? Teach them not to? The only way to avoid harm of other species is not to exist. Presumably you care about some animals more than others, like mammals more than insects, and you define cruelty by the ability to feel pain. You can also feel pain, so by this commonality you may identify with livestock (even when they don&#39;t care about you). But I care about more than feelings, the ability to be wise and clever, which is why I don&#39;t kill apes, crows, dolfins, etc. unless they gave me a good reason to. Livestock aren&#39;t bred to be brainy; that&#39;s why they&#39;re livestock and let themselves be kept and killed and eaten. If they were wild animals they&#39;d flee or strike with a good chance they could save themselves. Livestock are the same kinds of animals who if let loose get killed by other animal predators like canids, felids, and raptors. I don&#39;t expect anyone to make a good case why anyone should care for these animals. (I would kill and eat halfwitted humans too.)
  1856. ...
  1857. Still, animals for food are much more healthsom than plants; plants are the biggest source of dietary and topical disorders. The problem with government nutrition studies is they don&#39;t follow diets that include organ meats like liver, kidney, marrow; rather they follow red meat which they define as muscle, which are cooked in heated vegetable oils or processed with additives and nitrites (mineral and vegetable sources), both of which latter lead to cancers and CV disorders rather than the flesh itself.</div>
  1858.  
  1859. <span class="comment-functions">
  1860. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=15485" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1861. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=15485" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  1862. </span>
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  1866. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=15485" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1882. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1883. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 5:14 am</time>
  1884.  
  1885. <div class="comment-body">If you&#39;d kill &quot;halfwitted humans&quot;, please start with yourself. I mean, you misspelled dolphin, FFS. The only reason why domestic cattle do not defend themselves is because they have never had a natural social structure of a mix of males, females and calves raised to adulthood. Farm animals are killed in their adolescence, and even dairy cows have an average lifespan of 5 years instead of the 20 or so years that they live in the wild. Also, if you knew anything about organic farming, you&#39;d know that we do not lose any sleep over other animals eating some of &quot;our&quot; crops. But since you have such little empathy for livestock, and more for animals you deem intelligent, perhaps you&#39;ll understand why vegans have such little empathy for you and care so little for hurting your feelings. So maybe stop getting your panties in a twist over a well-sourced blog post ... but if you want to get even more offended, check out my website where I have a far more detailed article on the same topic.</div>
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  1899. <li class="comment" id="comment16036">
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  1908. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1909. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 8:46 am</time>
  1910.  
  1911. <div class="comment-body">I didn&#39;t misspell dolfin you brain-dead cretin, Romans began the misspelling of the original borrowed aspirate &quot;pp&quot; as &quot;ph&quot; then other languages took this spelling even when the Attic pronunciation evolved into the Coinè and Dèmotic of the fricative f. I don&#39;t pretend to speak one sound but spell another; it means I understand what I say, as opposed to the sheeple and parrots who fill this world.
  1912.  
  1913. Cite this 20-year lifespan: <a href="https://thefarmuponthehill.com/2017/08/20/myth-busting-cow-lifespan/" target="_blank">https://thefarmuponthehill.com<wbr>/2017<wbr>/08<wbr>/20<wbr>/myth-busting-cow-lifespan<wbr>/</a>.
  1914.  
  1915. You didn&#39;t answer me: What will vegans (if they even exist) do if those animals did eat their crops? It sounds like they&#39;ll do nothing, in which case the animals continue to breed until they eat everything, then the vegans starve.</div>
  1916.  
  1917. <span class="comment-functions">
  1918. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16036" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1919. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16036" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  1920. </span>
  1921.  
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  1924. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16036" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  1939.  
  1940. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  1941. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 6:15 pm</time>
  1942.  
  1943. <div class="comment-body">Mark my words, alysdexia. You&#39;re this close to having all your posts deleted for being uncivil. To answer your question (so that others may read it) - in a balanced ecosystem, insect numbers are kept in check by their natural predators and natural repellents. We support organic farming and permaculture, and can feed the world on a plant-based diet without destroying our soil. P.S. Don&#39;t forget my warning about deletion.</div>
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  1963. </a>
  1964. </figure>
  1965.  
  1966. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6206">alysdexia</a></address>
  1967. <time class="date">February 12, 2018, 12:43 am</time>
  1968.  
  1969. <div class="comment-body">You said I should kill myself. And you&#39;re regularly not civil to the commenters here. So delete your comments. Your answer is fantastic (not real).</div>
  1970.  
  1971. <span class="comment-functions">
  1972. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=edit&comment_id=16044" class="edit_comment">Edit</a> or
  1973. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=delete&comment_id=16044" class="delete_comment">delete</a> this comment.
  1974. </span>
  1975.  
  1976.  
  1977.  
  1978. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=16044" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
  1979.  
  1980.  
  1981.  
  1982.  
  1983. </li>
  1984.  
  1985. </ol>
  1986.  
  1987. </li>
  1988.  
  1989. </ol>
  1990.  
  1991. </li>
  1992.  
  1993. </ol>
  1994.  
  1995. </li>
  1996.  
  1997. </ol>
  1998.  
  1999. </li>
  2000.  
  2001. </ol>
  2002.  
  2003. </li>
  2004.  
  2005. <li class="comment" id="comment15464">
  2006. <figure class="author-thumb">
  2007. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7564">
  2008.  
  2009. <i class="fa fa-user"></i>
  2010.  
  2011. </a>
  2012. </figure>
  2013.  
  2014. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7564">vmorello</a></address>
  2015. <time class="date">September 30, 2016, 9:03 am</time>
  2016.  
  2017. <div class="comment-body">Oh, cry me a bloody river. Did you even read the article? It&#39;s not the animals&#39; fault that you are a lazy, spiteful individual who is more concerned with alleviating his own conscience about eating bacon than their actual well-being.
  2018.  
  2019. You are perpetuating animal cruelty for your own pleasure, and no amount of whining and complaining and arguing will change that. Mark, I say &quot;pleasure&quot;, not &quot;survival&quot;. Yes, humans need to eat to survive. But do they need to support industries which systematically exploit and slaughter animals? No, they do not. Our presence on earth will always mean death to other animals. But it need not be industrial scale slaughter.</div>
  2020.  
  2021.  
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  2024.  
  2025.  
  2026. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=15464" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
  2027.  
  2028.  
  2029.  
  2030.  
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  2032.  
  2033. <li class="comment" id="comment15624">
  2034. <figure class="author-thumb">
  2035. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7821">
  2036.  
  2037. <i class="fa fa-user"></i>
  2038.  
  2039. </a>
  2040. </figure>
  2041.  
  2042. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7821">Lzer0</a></address>
  2043. <time class="date">January 5, 2017, 2:38 pm</time>
  2044.  
  2045. <div class="comment-body">Most vegans I know are working toward more ethical solutions for nutrition, and are trying to be as compassionate as possible. Yes, we are aware that our everyday lives and consumption choices affect living creatures, but most of us are trying to make things better, and we are doing the best we can with the knowledge we have. I and most vegans I know don&#39;t claim &quot;cruelty free&quot; but try to be as much as we possibly can and still exist. I think you use this extreme argument and trying to point out hypocrisy makes you feel better about your choices. </div>
  2046.  
  2047.  
  2048.  
  2049.  
  2050.  
  2051.  
  2052. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=15624" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
  2053.  
  2054.  
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  2056.  
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  2060.  
  2061. </li>
  2062.  
  2063. <li class="comment" id="comment15478">
  2064. <figure class="author-thumb">
  2065. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7582">
  2066.  
  2067. <i class="fa fa-user"></i>
  2068.  
  2069. </a>
  2070. </figure>
  2071.  
  2072. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/7582">the beef farmer</a></address>
  2073. <time class="date">October 5, 2016, 3:46 pm</time>
  2074.  
  2075. <div class="comment-body">this is absolute rubbish. to start 1) &quot;grass fed beef&quot; is actually grass fed. 2) cheap protein supplements such as nuts are grown in places like Brazil in land that was part of the Amazon this means that you are killing animals and habitat. </div>
  2076.  
  2077.  
  2078.  
  2079.  
  2080.  
  2081.  
  2082. <span class="comment-functions"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/comment?action=reply&comment_id=15478" class="reply_to_comment">Reply.</a></span>
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  2089. <li class="comment" id="comment16030">
  2090. <figure class="author-thumb">
  2091. <a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">
  2092.  
  2093. <i class="fa fa-user"></i>
  2094.  
  2095. </a>
  2096. </figure>
  2097.  
  2098. <address class="author"><a href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/2824">Anupam</a></address>
  2099. <time class="date">February 11, 2018, 5:05 am</time>
  2100.  
  2101. <div class="comment-body">No, &quot;grass-fed&quot; animals are not necessarily raised entirely on grass - usually they are fed corn / soy and only &quot;finished&quot; on grass. As a &quot;beef farmer&quot;, you of all people should know this. Also, most rainforest loss in the Amazon has been done to farm cattle and raise feed crops for them. If you think that nuts require as much land as raising cattle and cattle feed, then you&#39;re a pretty shitty farmer. :)</div>
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  2434. <span class="screen-reader">By </span><a rel="author" class="author-link" href="https://www.theflamingvegan.com/bloggers/6531" title="Amelia">Amelia</a>
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