We TAKE IT EASY

<@K> At the very least, be civil about it, instead of attacking people.
[19:39] <~Momiji> if you came here just to troll then go elsewhere
[19:39] <anon> Is qian and Kun different enough to earn the different names? The just come from the elements right?
[19:40] <Rion> Saying that an awkward translation sounds stupid is not trolling.
[19:40] <~Momiji> :V
[19:40] <anon> I'm also going to agree with Rion with this. Even people here though Yuugi's old title was stupid.
[19:40] <Rion> There are better ways to word that and Tosiaki and stubbornly refused to accept them.
[19:40] <Conq> There's a slight difference apparently, but seeing as the article now says "Kun (坤) is the "earth" of bagua" I think it's okay
[19:41] <Conq> *and qian is the sky etc
[19:41] <anon> But on the other pages it just uses Kun, People don't know what that means in the Sympoisum article.
[19:42] <anon> They are rather close so is the distiction really worth it? I gave me a bit of confusion so I'd say no.
[19:42] <Conq> Which other page?
[19:42] <Conq> Oh, symposium articles
[19:42] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> @Rion: We all are trying our best to negotiate with Tosiaki; you should do the same
[19:42] <@K> It is definitely understandable that these edits have left a negative impression on readers both new and old, and it is definitely understandable that the entire situation has been quite tumultuous
[19:43] <@K> But please, don't just go "this sounds stupid and <editor> is dumb"
[19:43] <anon> I think the wrong term is being prominitly
[19:43] <Conq> "Negotiate with Tosiaki" leaves the impression he has more power than any of us, which is incorrect. He's just more...stubborn
[19:43] <~Momiji> ahaa~ there we go
[19:43] <anon> air and earth are more understandable. They should be used in symposium and the like
[19:43] <Conq> anon: can you link me to the articles you're talking about? Just want to see the context
[19:44] <anon> if qun and whatever are really needed they can say on the character page.
[19:44] <anon> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Kanako_Yasaka
[19:44] <Rion> "Negotiate"?
[19:44] <Keine-tan> Title: Symposium of Post-mysticism/Kanako Yasaka - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[19:44] <Rion> Why do you need to "negotiate"?
[19:44] <Rion> Jesus, he's only one user.
[19:44] <@K> And I am only one user as well.
[19:44] <@K> And so are you.
[19:44] <anon> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Symposium_of_Post-mysticism/Suwako_Moriya
[19:44] <Keine-tan> Title: Symposium of Post-mysticism/Suwako Moriya - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[19:44] <anon> When I see those ablities. I don't know what they are talking about
[19:45] <Conq> Okay, fair enough.
[19:45] <anon> I shouldn't need to go to wikipedia and look those up.
[19:45] <Patchouli-Knowledge> the readers are one user too apparently
[19:45] <Conq> Personally I like the "Ability to the extent of creating Qian (sky)" approach but I dunno
[19:45] <Rion> Yes, we are one user, but there are more of us who share the same opinion than those who share the same opinion as Tosiaki.
[19:45] <~Momiji> whoo boy
[19:46] <Rion> If multiple people complain about Tosiaki's awkward translation and he's the only one who supports it, there should be no question that it needs to be changed.
[19:46] <anon> An english user would understand sky more than "Qian" though.
[19:46] <@K> I agree with anon.
[19:46] <@K> An English translation should be just that, an English translation.
[19:46] <Drake> I agree, although I think the wording can be tweaked.
[19:47] <Conq> What tweaks are you thinking of?
[19:47] <~Momiji> yes, more tweaking
[19:47] <Drake> I'm not sure, I'm thinking lol
[19:47] <~Momiji> more tweaking that will last for another couple of months
[19:47] <Drake> Hey, that's not what I meant.
[19:47] <~Momiji> we ~still~ haven't finalized on '程度の能力'
[19:48] <Conq> I thought like everyone agreed on "capable of" :P
[19:48] <~Momiji> i just see this whole thing going into an endless spiral
[19:48] <anon> That's why a stand needs to be made Momiji.
[19:49] <Drake> I don't mean that either.
[19:49] <~Momiji> you forget, this whole encompassing issue predates toshiaki
[19:49] <~Momiji> he just uh, was 'energetic' in trying to deal with it
[19:49] <Conq> From the conversations here and elsewhere I got the impression that "capable of" was good enough and the present translation was clunky enough that we could switch to it at least temporarily, although correct me if I'm wrong
[19:49] <~Momiji> i guess
[19:50] <anon> Well I mean in reguards to how things are set up/formatted.
[19:50] <anon> not like "drive out the devil" stand
[19:50] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Okay, so what's being discussed right now?
[19:50] <anon> E.G at what point should changes be brought to the talbe. Or fixed at disgresion.
[19:51] <~Momiji> i don't care how it ends up, i care if it's gone through the correct process and it's accurate and it's informative
[19:51] <anon> Also what's the concensious on this :http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/User:Nazeo/Color_Codes/Blind_Cirno_Translation
[19:51] <Keine-tan> Title: User:Nazeo/Color Codes/Blind Cirno Translation - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[19:51] <Patchouli-Knowledge> useless
[19:51] <Drake> Can we stick to one thing right now
[19:51] <~Momiji> i try not to stick my nose into content debates, but through this process i've had to do so several times, and quite a lot of it with toshiaki
[19:51] <@K> what is this
[19:52] <Patchouli-Knowledge> I asked before, what are we talking about right now
[19:52] <~Momiji> so i'm a bit torn
[19:52] <@K> If you would like to discuss Kanako and Suwako's SoPM translations right now, please do so.
[19:52] <~Momiji> personally i don't care about using japanese terms for stuff
[19:53] <~Momiji> but i was adamant with toshi that they not be used without describing them fully
[19:53] <~Momiji> so people don't look at them and go 'wtf is this?'
[19:53] <Drake> Do we have rollovers?
[19:53] <anon> I think using the japanese term is confusing. People don't always know japanese. I looked at them and went "wtf is this?"
[19:53] <Kapow> for 程度の能力 how about "the capacity to"?
[19:53] <Drake> no stop that, one thing at a time
[19:54] <~Momiji> Kapow: yeah that's an example
[19:54] <Patchouli-Knowledge> do i have to keep asking what the topic is right now
[19:54] <Conq> Drake: yeah we do
[19:54] <Patchouli-Knowledge> is it the SoPM translations or capability/capacity or what
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[19:54] <~Momiji> it's about toshiaki in general
[19:54] <~Momiji> and translations in general
[19:54] <@K> Translation overall
[19:54] <@K> So it seems.
[19:55] <Drake> I think a nice way would be to capitalize Heaven and Earth, and rollover to "Qian, the bla bla of the Ba'gua"
[19:55] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Tosiaki avoids the process and enacts changes without consent multiple times before
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[19:55] <~Momiji> right and i've told him about that
[19:55] <Conq> (see the music themes for an example of the current rollovers)
[19:55] <Patchouli-Knowledge> and he still does it
[19:55] <Rion> If Tosiaki is a problem child then take away hsi right to edit.
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[19:56] <Patchouli-Knowledge> It would be nice if he knew that other people not named Tosiaki actually have an opinion
[19:56] <anon> Oh well if it is translation in general that link I posted is revelent. People wanting to double the translations. Which I think is a little silly.Just don't want to see a bunch of big changes happen from it.
[19:56] <Kapow> oh he knows, they're just all wrong
[19:57] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> I'm pretty sure he listens; it's just that he may misunderstand quite frequently and he's often rash
[19:57] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Yes, he is only one user, that's the proble, it's not a change that everyone agreed to, it was a change dictated by one user alone and I assume the wiki is a colloboration project where people usually agree on stuff first so it doesn't devolve into edit wars.
[19:57] <@K> Momiji: just curious. How many times has Tosiaki circumvented the editing feedback process after being lectured about it?
[19:57] <~Momiji> i wasn't exactly counting
[19:57] <~Momiji> hmmm
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[19:58] <Kapow> why does he keep removing the abilities from the character box?
[19:58] <anon> Well when I talked to Tosiaki he claimed we shouldn't change his edits without a large consenious. Which is odd because he ignores that.
[19:58] <~Momiji> i know the first time i probated him he pmed me on twitter, direct to my phone
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[19:58] <Drake> Yes, that is one problem.
[19:58] <~Momiji> Kapow: we've been talking about that
[19:58] <Patchouli-Knowledge> atai if you're here for Tosi we just kicked him to make sure he wakes up
[19:59] <Drake> There is almost a uniform double standard he takes, which is the major source of most of his bad decisions.
[19:59] <Drake> Even if it's been addressed, he hasn't changed much in that respect.
[19:59] <Rion> It's probably because he has Asperger's. Not even trying to insult him, but his behavior certainly seems to be a sign.
[20:00] <Drake> I can tell he's trying to listen to other people, though.
[20:00] <@K> How wonderfully blunt, once again.
[20:00] <@K> :V
[20:00] == Nazeo has changed nick to Nazeo_Aelko_Nezen
[20:00] <Kapow> it's very hard to change his mind about anything
[20:01] <anon> ^ Quite.
[20:01] <@K> I will say this: Tosiaki's underlying idea is right, translations SHOULD be accurate. The execution of this idea, however, has been anything but smooth and painless.
[20:01] <Drake> Precisely.
[20:01] <Kapow> they should be accurate up to a point
[20:01] <@K> Readability is also important.
[20:01] <Kapow> no translation can be 100% accurate, you have to draw the line somewhere
[20:02] <Ataisai> Accuracy should not be achieved at the expense of clarity or sense.
[20:02] <Drake> Yes, that as well.
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[20:02] <Drake> At the very least, perfect accuracy should not be a kill-all argument against a given translation if it otherwise is valid.
[20:02] == Imosa [webchat@A588D917.CAC4B22D.198E5D03.IP] has quit [Ping timeout]
[20:02] <@K> It is important to remember that the English Touhou Wiki is a wiki for English-speaking Touhou fans. (boy, I don't know why I have to say something as redundant as this, but...)
[20:03] <~Momiji> well this has been irritating
[20:03] <~Momiji> i'll be waiting for my phone to wake me up tonight
[20:03] <@K> Naturally, having readable English content is important. Knowing Japanese is a nice bonus, but it should be just that: a bonus.
[20:03] <Kapow> for simple things like one-liners about character abilities, it should be clear and short english that can be understood with no context
[20:04] <@K> Not a pre-requisite for reading the wiki.
[20:04] <Kapow> any specific details can be covered on the character profile
[20:04] <anon> Right after the Yuugi discussion here. This happened an hour later http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Yuugi_Hoshiguma I'm not sure why people would want her to be called "The spoken of anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirit"
[20:04] <Keine-tan> Title: Talk:Yuugi Hoshiguma - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[20:04] <Drake> Choja brought that up with me just earlier
[20:04] <Kapow> yeah, that is a figure of speech that he's translating literally, which is actually losing the real meaning
[20:04] <Kapow> it's just plain incorrect
[20:05] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> apparently, it's to preserve a reference to Confucius
[20:05] <Drake> I had gone in and touched up some wording, but I completely disregarded the actual name.
[20:05] <Kapow> the reference to confucius should be explained on her profile
[20:05] <Drake> Yes, it is a confucius thing, but the fact remains that despite the ability being explained in the section, the ability name wasn't changed
[20:05] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> fair enough
[20:06] <Drake> It used to be "Unexplainable phenomenon", correct?
[20:06] <anon> 馬鹿 is the characters horse, deer. It comes from the chinese saying of "To see a horse and call it a deer" But you wouldn't put that next to each use of "baka".
[20:06] <Kapow> a one-line summary of her ability should be simple and understandable without having to go looking up things on wikipedia
[20:06] <Drake> yes i think that's understood
[20:06] <Drake> Well, Yuugi is a bit problematic in that regard
[20:06] <~Momiji> anon:  that wasn't exactly the point of this exercise
[20:07] <~Momiji> and why i think this whole thing is a potential endless spiral
[20:07] <Drake> Since her ability has no explanation so f- wait was her ability expanded on in Post-Myst?
[20:07] <anon> The troublesome word was being translated buy its origin. Rather than it's own meaning.
[20:07] <Kapow> english doesn't have a term that means "this specific thing confucious said once", so it can't really be translated directly, you need a translator's note
[20:08] <Kapow> which in this case is the ability section on her profile
[20:08] <Drake> The way I understood it was that it's impossible to explain Yuugi's ability to wield unexplainable phenomena, and it hasn't been otherwise expanded on.
[20:08] <Kapow> people can get the general idea from the one-line summary, and go to her profile if they want to know more details
[20:09] <anon> Well the word itself wasn't said by confucious it was created from a saying he had. Like 馬鹿 was made from a saying too.
[20:10] <Drake> Yes. Our point is that it was explained, and we know that the one-liner should be changed to something easy-to-understand.
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[20:11] <anon> Sounds good.
[20:12] <Drake> I would like to know if there's an agreement to change the one-liner back to something like "The capability to wield unexplainable phenomena", and add the link from "unexplainable phenomena" to "whatever confucius said" in the paragraph.
[20:12] <Kapow> you mean put the link in the ability line?
[20:13] <Drake> I've been intending to do that, yes (i don't know how that's formatted though)
[20:13] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> note or reference should do fine
[20:13] <Kapow> the thing is, that appears at least 4 times throughout the wiki, are you going to put links in all of them?
[20:13] <Patchouli-Knowledge> what appears four times?
[20:13] <Drake> the short phrase.
[20:13] <Kapow> I think just putting it on her profile is fine
[20:13] <Patchouli-Knowledge> oh, it should be in just on her profile
[20:13] <Kapow> that's where people would look to find out more
[20:13] <Patchouli-Knowledge> if readers want to
[20:13] <Patchouli-Knowledge> exactly
[20:14] <Patchouli-Knowledge> I assume that some of our editors think our readers are braindead
[20:14] <Patchouli-Knowledge> maybe
[20:14] <Drake> People are going to find her character page much more easily than they would finding the other odd pages with the phrase in it.
[20:14] <Drake> they'll get to the paragraph first, in any case.
[20:14] <Kapow> I think "capacity" is better than "capability", it carries the implication of measurement, so it's closer to the original implied meaning
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[20:15] <Drake> Can we discuss that when we're done with this first
[20:15] <Drake> i realize that's a thing right now but hang on
[20:15] <Kapow> sounds like we're all in agreement on that
[20:15] <anon> Just having the explaination in Yuugi's article and the rest being "unexplainable phenomena" right? ^
[20:15] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Yes
[20:16] <Kapow> yep
[20:16] <Drake> okay brb
[20:16] <Patchouli-Knowledge> If the reader wants to find out more about Yuugi's ability, they go to Yuugi's page.
[20:16] <Patchouli-Knowledge> That is simple enough.
[20:16] <Patchouli-Knowledge> really would love to stop the overcomplicating stuff
[20:16] <@K> Links and tooltips
[20:16] <Drake> Yeah, I had figured that adding links would be helpful, but that would be a shitton of work.
[20:17] <@K> They're wonderful ways to provide additional information to those who are interested
[20:17] <@K> While keeping the article text simple.
[20:17] <Kapow> tooltips maybe
[20:17] <Patchouli-Knowledge> verifying the latest edits, simplifies! that's nice
[20:17] <anon> The Symoposium article links to her profile anyway. So the ability doesn't really need it's own link there.
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[20:18] <Kapow> we don't want to end up with a good percentage of the abilities having links in them every time they appear
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[20:18] <Kapow> it's excessive
[20:18] <Kapow> lots of abilities need further explanation to cover all the details
[20:19] <Kapow> as long as people know there's an "ability" section on the character profiles, they'll just look there
[20:19] <Drake> Yes, I think that suggestion was made, or at least was taken note of
[20:20] <Drake> I couldn't really tell people to go make an ability section for every character without them wanting to explain the abilities though
[20:20] <Kapow> I thought most of them had one anyway
[20:20] <Drake> and there's no way i could do that myself, even if i'd like to
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[20:21] <Kapow> if there's nothing to add, then they don't need one I guess
[20:21] <Drake> They were at some point, excerpts from their dic.nico pages, I think
[20:21] <Kapow> and if someone wants to put more details, they put it in that section instead of cramming it into the one-line summary
[20:22] <Kapow> it's just a way of sorting the information
[20:22] <Patchouli-Knowledge> There you go, an agreement. Do all of you like this?
[20:22] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Well, all of you who are alive at least.
[20:22] <anon> Seems fine to me.
[20:22] <Drake> As long as we have the manpower to put Ability sections into action, I'm completely for it.
[20:22] <@K> Details about an ability belong in that character's main article page, yes.
[20:23] <~Momiji> yes
[20:23] <@K> They do not belong in the translation for SoPM's text
[20:23] <Kapow> I'm not sure why you think there's extra work involved in having a section for further details, if those details don't exist then don't worry about it
[20:24] <@K> A fair amount of characters have their own Ability section already, do they not?
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[20:24] <Drake> I'm not a frequent editor; I don't know how much work it takes to implement anything that isn't small.
[20:25] <anon> Yuugi and momizi I know do. As the abilities moved from the infoboxes. They might need better wording though.
[20:25] <Kapow> it's not like "we need to go and explain all the characters' abilities", it's "this section is where this kind of information goes"
[20:25] <Kapow> it's just a standard of organization
[20:25] <@K> Personally, I'm not a fan of the neutering of the infobox.
[20:25] <Drake> alright, now we can move to the infobox ability thing.
[20:25] <Kapow> yes, the ability summary definitely goes in the infobox
[20:25] <@K> (hey cool good segue)
[20:25] <Patchouli-Knowledge> purposes for what purposes is
[20:26] <Ataisai> Oh
[20:26] <Ataisai> before you do
[20:26] <Kapow> I can't believe there's even a question about that
[20:26] <Ataisai> I'd just like to say thank you to whoever fixed the Tewi page.
[20:26] <@K> I dunno, some users seemed to think that removing information from the INFObox would be a good idea
[20:26] <Drake> As far as I've followed, the people against having the phrase in the infobox is that it would already be in the paragraph for it.
[20:27] <Kapow> users besides tosiaki?
[20:27] <Drake> yes
[20:27] <@K> Yes, actually.
[20:27] <Drake> enough that it's been considered
[20:27] <anon> I did see others dicuss it. I think he was the only one to start moving them though.
[20:27] <~Momiji> yes
[20:27] <Ataisai> Please de-consider it. I'm baffled as to why people would want it gone.
[20:27] <~Momiji> the idea of removing it from the infobox
[20:27] <Kapow> well, the information is already duplicated in the translated profiles
[20:28] <Ataisai> aerodynamic efficiency?
[20:28] <Kapow> I don't think duplicating it is really a big deal
[20:28] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Keep it.
[20:28] <~Momiji> yes
[20:28] <~Momiji> that's exactly it
[20:28] <Kapow> the infobox should be all the basic information, whether it's elsewhere or not
[20:28] <@K> Duplication is not a problem.
[20:28] <@K> The purpose of an infobox is to provide a quick overview of basic character information.
[20:28] <Drake> Personally, while I don't care either way, I see no actual benefit to removing what's already there.
[20:29] <~Momiji> i don't want to have this conversation ~again~
[20:29] <@K> Information that can be accessed at-a-glance.
[20:29] <@K> This information would also be in the article itself.
[20:29] <Ataisai> Besides, given the nature of Touhou, and how everyone has a special unique ability, shouldn't that be one of the things that deserves to be in there?
[20:29] <Kapow> the only way these conversations will end is if a consensus is formed and enforced
[20:30] <@K> It seems awfully wasteful to cut information out of the infobox on the grounds that "it's already in the article text"
[20:30] <~Momiji> Ataisai: because it's not exactly 'confirmed'
[20:30] <~Momiji> which augh this is going in circles
[20:30] <Kapow> confirmed?
[20:30] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Just leave it in there, that's the simple solution.
[20:30] <Patchouli-Knowledge> It's just a phrase, there's no benefit to taking it out so there you go.
[20:30] <Kapow> the abilities are directly from the profiles ZUN writes
[20:30] <Kapow> there's nothing to confirm
[20:31] <~Momiji> no, the point of removing it was to remove Infobox Character from the 'abilities' debate
[20:31] <@K> In some misguided attempt at solving the issue.
[20:31] <Conq> The point of removing them was to bypass the wording debate
[20:31] <Kapow> ah, I figured that was it
[20:31] <@K> "We can't come up with a short and accurate translation? Just remove it from the infobox!"
[20:31] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Which we can get to it later or now?
[20:31] <@K> "...what"
[20:31] <Kapow> insane reasoning
[20:31] <Conq> well it's in the article anyway so :shrug:
[20:31] <@K> Crazy, I know, but I've seen it!
[20:31] <@K> I've seen it with my own eyes!
[20:31] <Patchouli-Knowledge> well, since we're talking about it, we can get to kapow's issue now, right?
[20:31] <~Momiji> because you end up with 'ability blahblah to blahblah blagh blagh, ability to blahgblagh and blathadgkvaaf, abilaglfdgaaaaa'
[20:32] <~Momiji> and it keeps going and going and going the longer the string gets
[20:32] <@K> Momiji: yes, which looks awfully repetitive and clunky
[20:33] <Kapow> honestly I'm for leaving out the "capability/capacity/extent" stuff in the infobox
[20:33] <Ataisai> Well, if you've got a long, long ability string, that might be the problem you'd want to examine. But it sounds like you're all already painfully aware of that, so yeah.
[20:33] <~Momiji> yeah
[20:33] <Kapow> just because it's phrased that way by ZUN doesn't mean we have to always phrase it that way in translations
[20:33] <~Momiji> and then we don't have to think about how the string will look in the infobox
[20:33] <~Momiji> frankly we're kinda getting over the abilities issue
[20:34] <~Momiji> it's in it's own separate page that explains that whole mess
[20:34] <~Momiji> it's it's it's
[20:34] <@K> Capable of: Stopping time, throwing knives, being the perfect elegant maid
[20:34] <Drake> Were we coming towards "The capability to X" or "Capable of X? I think almost everyone I've spoken to has accepted it so far.
[20:34] <~Momiji> that's fine
[20:35] <Kapow> maybe translate it in the profiles as "the capacity to manipulate X" and in the infobox just have "manipulate X"
[20:35] <~Momiji> i don't care what it concludes to, just that it concludes to something
[20:35] <~Momiji> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Characters/Abilities don't forget to update this
[20:35] <Keine-tan> Title: Characters/Abilities - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[20:35] <Patchouli-Knowledge> or just do "Abilities: x, y and z" in the infobox for simplicity
[20:35] <Conq> good man drake >_>b
[20:35] <Patchouli-Knowledge> and use capacity in the detailed explanation to the left
[20:35] <~Momiji> forget the infobox
[20:35] <@K> From what I've seen on the MotK thread, capability/capable has gained favor with a majority of the posters
[20:35] <Kapow> yeah, that's what I'm saying
[20:35] <Drake> Alright, so K, were you aware of the distinction made between the two?
[20:35] <Kapow> K: have they considered capacity?
[20:36] <Drake> yes that was considered a while ago
[20:36] <@K> There was a huuuuuge list of pretty much every suggestion made
[20:36] <@K> Which then got even huuuuuuuuger later on
[20:36] <Drake> i think it's best if we keep it to this and nail it.
[20:36] <~Momiji> yeah
[20:36] <Drake> [22:35] <Drake> Alright, so K, were you aware of the distinction made between the two?
[20:36] <~Momiji> i can't count how many different iterations and permutations we had
[20:36] <Kapow> the two what
[20:36] <Kapow> capability or capable?
[20:36] <Drake> yes
[20:36] <Patchouli-Knowledge> capacity and capability
[20:36] <Patchouli-Knowledge> or that
[20:37] <@K> I don't recall the fine details of it, but I could probably check up on the thread.
[20:37] <Kapow> "the capability to" or "capable of"
[20:37] <Kapow> which will affect the conjugation after it
[20:37] <@K> ...and then I accidentally click on the SoPM thread. good going me :V
[20:37] <Ataisai> ...I kinda like the second.
[20:37] <Patchouli-Knowledge> @dict time
[20:37] <Keine-tan> Patchouli-Knowledge: wn: time n 1: an instance or single occasion for some event; "this time he succeeded"; "he called four times"; "he could do ten at a clip" [syn: {time}, {clip}] 2: a period of time considered as a resource under your control and sufficient to accomplish something; "take time to smell the roses"; "I didn't have time to finish"; "it took more than half my time" 3: an indefinite period (5 more messages)
[20:37] <Kapow> "the capability to manipulate fate"   "capable of manipulating fate"
[20:37] <Patchouli-Knowledge> whoops
[20:37] <Patchouli-Knowledge> holy shit keine's here?
[20:37] <Patchouli-Knowledge> didn't notice that
[20:37] <@K> Of course.
[20:37] <@K> Keine is with you always.
[20:38] <Ataisai> "Capable of manipulating time."
[20:38] <Ataisai> bam
[20:38] <Ataisai> clean, simple, concise
[20:38] <Patchouli-Knowledge> I didn't notice her since she didn't have hop or op
[20:38] <Patchouli-Knowledge> sorry about tha
[20:38] <Kapow> the latter is shorter, and it makes it easier to remove it for the infobox
[20:38] <@K> Drake: this? http://www.shrinemaiden.org/forum/index.php/topic,12464.msg823543.html#msg823543
[20:38] <Kapow> "ability: manipulating fate" in the infobox, and "capable of manipulating fate" otherwise
[20:38] <Keine-tan> Title: Semi-major revision on an important facet of the official materials - Need Input (at www.shrinemaiden.org)
[20:38] <@K> Reading right now.
[20:40] <Drake> The difference is just a matter of precise translation and rhetoric
[20:40] <Drake> "the ability is something they possess, so the 'capability to' makes sense"
[20:40] <Ataisai> ...what
[20:40] <Drake> sorry, that was worded badly
[20:41] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Simplicity.
[20:41] <Kapow> the issues is trying to make it mesh with putting "ability:" in front of it
[20:41] <Drake> Yes.
[20:41] <Ataisai> ah.
[20:41] <Drake> It's just a parsing issue
[20:41] <@K> Are we sticking with "Ability:" as the header for that section of the infobox?
[20:41] <Patchouli-Knowledge> yes, that works fine
[20:41] <Kapow> the thing is, the whole point of including this is to replicate the odd phrasing ZUN uses, so it's going to look odd
[20:41] <@K> I thought this whole issue started BECAUSE someone deemed "Ability:" inadequate.
[20:41] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Right now I'm thinking "Do regular readers really care about the intricacies of what ZUN said? Get to the point."
[20:42] <Ataisai> No
[20:42] <Ataisai> No the hell they do not.
[20:42] <Kapow> if you don't want it to look odd then we can just leave the whole damn thing out
[20:42] <Patchouli-Knowledge> If they want to, they go into another page to find the intricacies
[20:42] <Patchouli-Knowledge> the abilities page
[20:42] <Kapow> considering that it's on EVERY touhou ability, and would have to be replicated on every ability everywhere, I think just explaining this on the abilities page would be better
[20:42] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> i do like learning about these curious intricacies, but now I'm wondering whether we should have left it untranslated
[20:43] <Kapow> and not trying to keep it in the translation
[20:43] <Drake> "Her ability is the capability of manipulating fate" vs "Her ability is that she is capable of manipulating fate"
[20:43] <Drake> or something along those lines.
[20:43] <Kapow> "Her ability is manipulating fate"
[20:43] <Kapow> "Ability: Manipulation of fate"
[20:43] <Kapow> remember when it said that?
[20:43] <C27> I'd go with whatever gets the point across with the fewest words.
[20:43] == Conq [~Conq@qq-253E5BFF.cmdnnj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
[20:43] <Kapow> that was perfect
[20:43] <Kapow> let's go back to that
[20:44] <C27> yeah
[20:44] <~Momiji> =|
[20:44] <C27> Readability and conciseness is important
[20:44] <Patchouli-Knowledge> If the reason to reject that is "it sounds ambigous", it fulfills that purpose doesn't it
[20:44] <Patchouli-Knowledge> hehe
[20:44] <C27> the wiki is too cluttered and messy IMO
[20:44] <C27> I... ehhhh.
[20:45] <Patchouli-Knowledge> You have an entire description to describe how the ability works anyways
[20:45] <Kapow> all this capability stuff can be explained somewhere else, it's not important enough to try to replicate an odd japanese phrasing into an odd english phrasing
[20:45] <Patchouli-Knowledge> you don't need to make the phrase any bigger
[20:45] <C27> I don't want to do anything without an agreement with multiple people first
[20:45] <anon> I'm fine with that. The goofy vague thing can stay as a discription on the ability page for those interested in learning about the ablities at large.
[20:46] <Drake> Personally I'm still one for the capability wording.
[20:46] <Ataisai> I'd also like to point out that if it /were/ made mandatory that you include zun's awkward phrasing in how you stated the ability, it would then become more of a formality than any actual preservation of-- or indication of --some special meaning. And then there would no longer be any point in having it anyway, since everyone would just sort of skip over it and not bother taking it into account.
[20:46] <Ataisai> I'm probably very late in stating that, but it only now occurred to me.
[20:47] <@K> For the purposes of the infobox: I am perfectly fine with something like this:
[20:47] <@K> Capable of: (or Capablility: if that's how you swing)
[20:47] <@K>   <unadorned ability-- er, capability>
[20:47] <@K>   <unadorned capability>
[20:47] <@K>   <etc>
[20:47] == Patchwork [webchat@qq-50135641.unl.edu] has joined #touhouwiki
[20:47] <Patchouli-Knowledge> Hello Patch.
[20:47] <Ataisai> heh.
[20:47] <Patchouli-Knowledge> ahaha
[20:47] <Patchouli-Knowledge> i don't think i should masquerade with this name then for the time being
[20:47] == Patchouli-Knowledge has changed nick to Choja
[20:47] == glasnost [JunKawada@qq-85A93781.gdcb.iastate.edu] has joined #touhouwiki
[20:47] <Patchwork> Hello.
[20:47] <glasnost> hi
[20:48] <Choja> Patch~ glas~
[20:48] <Patchwork> Choja~
[20:48] <glasnost> choja~
[20:48] <Drake> I almost like keeping the Ability: there just as it's been that way forever, iunno.
[20:48] <~Momiji> so who else are we getting here =|
[20:48] <Choja> Anyways, yeah right now we're on the ability topic
[20:48] <@K> For the purposes of the ==Abilities== section in the article, I am perfectly fine with crazy detailed explanations of the nuances of each ability, so long as each ability starts off with the ability name (like the one used in the infobox) bolded for emphasis and readability
[20:48] <Kapow> that's fine
[20:48] <@K> Any naysayers?
[20:48] <Choja> Momiji: group project!!
[20:49] <~Momiji> great
[20:49] <Drake> no i think we're more talking about the contents of that one line still
[20:49] <Choja> your wiki is our wiki
[20:49] <~Momiji> Choja: have fun
[20:49] <Patchwork> Ah, are we going to be changing that terribly formulated "ability to the extent of X" at last?
[20:49] <glasnost> K: so long as we're all cool with the abilities section only including actual canon information about the abilities and not speculation or *really* tenuous inferences
[20:50] <Choja> anyways, Kapow is suggesting Abilities: x, y, and z in infobox and Her ability is x for the description
[20:50] <Kapow> I say we go back to "Ability: Manipulation of fate" and not worry about trying to translate ZUN's awkward phrasing into an awkward english phrasing
[20:50] <Choja> Drake thinks that capability/capable of is okay for him (personally*)
[20:50] <~Momiji> i'm moving 'kakashi etc.' back to 'kakashi spirit news' for the time being
[20:50] <Drake> thank you
[20:50] <Choja> Thanks.
[20:50] <Ataisai> K: I kinda like that, as long as it doesn't devolve into needless and groundless speculation
[20:50] <Patchwork> I have to agree with Kapow on this one.
[20:51] <@K> Kapow: but then we'll get an unexpected visitor in the Editor's Corner who says that the translation is inaccurate!
[20:51] <Choja> excuse me this is me giving a damn about the simple/detailed barriers
[20:51] <Patchwork> You can link to a separate page.
[20:51] <@K> Unless we enter into an alternate timeline.
[20:51] <Ataisai> oh
[20:51] <Kapow> the inaccuracy will be explained on the abilities wiki page
[20:51] <Kapow> right at the top
[20:51] <glasnost> i guess i'm okay with having zun's unusual phrasing moved out to a separate page, yeah
[20:51] <Choja> The abilities page is a section where you can emphasize that
[20:51] <Ataisai> glas just said what I said, but better
[20:51] <Patchwork> Which makes note of the strange phrasing ZUN uses to describe the abilities.
[20:51] <Choja> but for character profiles, use the simple form
[20:51] <Drake> I think the main reason I didn't like the vanilla phrasing was that it allowed for huge extrapolation of how powerful the ability was, but as long as it's contained and explained in the ability paragraph it's fine.
[20:51] <~Momiji> holy crap tosi
[20:51] <SupremeBogus> what happened
[20:52] <Ataisai> oh dear
[20:52] <~Momiji> he sure was thorough in renaming it
[20:52] <~Momiji> lol
[20:52] <Ataisai> what did he do now?
[20:52] <@K> ...
[20:52] <@K> :V
[20:52] <SupremeBogus> lolo
[20:52] <~Momiji> he fixed any links that he'd break
[20:52] <Kapow> I don't think adding "the capability of" really reduces the extrapolation you can do
[20:52] <Patchwork> "The capability of" still reads awkwardly, as well.
[20:52] <Drake> it's less direct, was basically it.
[20:52] <Kapow> isn't the implication that they have the power to do that thing and anything lesser?
[20:52] <Patchwork> "Capable of X" might be fine.
[20:53] <Choja> I would like to have a simple/detailed form where you can look up the detailed form in another page and have all pages linking to it use the simple form
[20:53] <Patchwork> Regardless, I think there is one overarching concern which we should have.
[20:53] <Drake> I'm just emotionally attached to the phrase "The capability to X" at this point.
[20:53] <Choja> so all pages would use "Ability: x" but if you go to the abilities page, it explains the details of how ZUN thinks in general of how abilities work
[20:53] <SupremeBogus> isnt there already a separate page detailing the silly nuances of the phrase
[20:53] <Patchwork> Which is that this is an English language wiki, and needs to accessible and straightforward to an English language audience.
[20:53] <Ataisai> Drake: it might be time to break up with it, I think.
[20:53] <Kapow> I don't know that "the capability to" is close enough to ZUN's original phrasing to even be worth bothering with
[20:53] <Patchwork> If something needs further specification, create a page for that.
[20:54] <Choja> exactly
[20:54] <Choja> i said this in my suggestion, let the reader explore as far as they want to
[20:54] <Kapow> it doesn't really make it sound vague, it just sounds redundant
[20:54] <Choja> if they don't want to, don't force it on them
[20:54] <Kapow> in english
[20:54] <@K> That is the beauty of a wiki.
[20:54] <Patchwork> But on the frontend, keep things readable and clear for the English audience who likely does not know the intricacies of Japanese.
[20:54] <@K> There are these little blue things you click
[20:54] <@K> And they start to reproduce on your browser's tab bar
[20:54] <Drake> Well, yes. I'm just perturbed that we needed to have a several-month-long discussion on what to properly use and it all boils down to ditching it and going back to what we had before.
[20:54] <Choja> yes but people are trying to cram all the information into as few pages as possible
[20:55] <Kapow> drake: at least we'll never have to have the discussion again
[20:55] <anon> ^ Lay down the rule
[20:55] <Choja> Drake: Not exactly, we are moving the explanation of ZUN's formality to the abilities page instead, right?
[20:55] <@K> Drake: well, some folks are predisposed to discussing for the sake of discussing.
[20:55] <Drake> Well, yes.
[20:55] <@K> I'll admit that I've been incredibly inactive as of late, I should've stepped in earlier to try and put a stop to this.
[20:56] <Kapow> yeah, we are going to add ZUN's odd phrasing to the wiki, we're just going to add it in ONE place instead of putting it in the translations everywhere
[20:56] <Choja> ^
[20:56] <Drake> I think the lateness in people catching this is what's upsetting me.
[20:56] <SupremeBogus> can we get tosi to agree though
[20:56] <Drake> I put a lot into it, that's all.
[20:56] <Choja> do not make it more difficult to understand this than it has to
[20:56] <Kapow> because it's not possible to translate it without being very wordy or just sounding redundant
[20:56] <Drake> I'm certainly not going to argue this though.
[20:56] <Ataisai> ...I'd also really like it if we could stop beating around the bush and just call Zun's phrasing "terrible," "godawful" or "bogus" (no offense meant to Supreme), but I think that would result in a great deal of panty-bunching, so I don't really think there's much of a chance of that.
[20:56] <Kapow> honestly, "the capability to" doesn't really add any meaning unless you already know that it's trying to refer to ZUN's phrasing
[20:56] <glasnost> at the risk of sounding rude
[20:57] <Drake> atai that would be a bad idea
[20:57] <glasnost> i'm not sure i see why it's important to get tosi to agree
[20:57] <Choja> glasnost: ohhhhhh sick burn
[20:57] <Choja> i mean oh
[20:57] <@K> A 100% accurate and 100% easy-to-read translation is not possible, especially for something as supposedlly intentonally awkward as teido no nouryoku
[20:57] <Choja> i apologize
[20:57] <SupremeBogus> ;u
[20:57] <Patchwork> I hate to say this now, but once we get these issues sorted out, I think we really ought to start going through the character pages and reworking all of them.
[20:57] <~Momiji> toshi's off for the week, don't worry about it
[20:57] <Patchwork> Simply because they are full of bad English as it is.
[20:57] <@K> Tosiaki's policy is to reject any translation which is not 100% accurate.
[20:57] <Kapow> if you don't know about all this already, and you come to the wiki for the first time and see "Ability: the capability to", you're just going to think it's redundant and pointless
[20:57] <Kapow> it doesn't get the idea across
[20:57] <Patchwork> Especially pages like Tewi's page.
[20:57] <Ataisai> I know, Drake. But it'd be nice. At least we'd be honest.
[20:57] == Polaris [~Polaris@qq-D24A32FC.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #touhouwiki
[20:57] <Patchwork> It's quite the mess.
[20:57] <Choja> More people!
[20:57] <@K> Many others are in favor of a translation which is 100% readable.
[20:58] <Ataisai> Patch: actually, Tewi's page got fixed up pretty good
[20:58] <Drake> We don't need to say "ZUN's art is bad" in a wiki either.
[20:58] <Patchwork> Oh, really?
[20:58] <Patchwork> I'm glad to hear that.
[20:58] <@K> So naturally, an agreement with Tosiaki will be incredibly difficult.
[20:58] <Drake> We don't need subjectiveness.
[20:58] <Ataisai> Drake: Just trying to add a little levity, dude.
[20:58] <Ataisai> Don't take it too seriously.
[20:59] <@K> I have kinda done a pretty lame job of administrating, stepping in so late to the debate.
[20:59] <Kapow> atai you aren't helping
[20:59] <Drake> we're kind of in a srsbns discussion here so sorry
[20:59] <@K> But I mostly didn't want to contribute to the heated discussions that started this whole thing.
[20:59] <@K> And I had faith that people would reach a conclusion in a reasonable amount of time.
[20:59] <@K> 2+ months is NOT a reasonable amount of time.
[20:59] <SupremeBogus> maybe we should just create an entirely separate wiki for tosi, so we never have to deal with this again
[20:59] <Drake> some people have said so too lol
[20:59] <Ataisai> ...SB, I am down with that.
[21:00] <Ataisai> Patch: yeah, it's mostly all fixed up and clean
[21:00] <@K> Now now now, please put down your pitchforks and torches.
[21:00] <glasnost> heehee
[21:00] <Ataisai> her info box is still host to some ridiculous stuff though
[21:00] <Ataisai> >Age At least 1,300 years old, most likely at least 1,792,470 years old.
[21:00] <Ataisai> ...
[21:00] <SupremeBogus> lol
[21:00] <Polaris> What
[21:00] <Kapow> what
[21:00] <Choja> Atai: what
[21:00] <SupremeBogus> <3
[21:00] <~Momiji> okay, kakashi spirit news is changed back for the time being
[21:00] <Drake> hahaha
[21:00] <Drake> so good
[21:00] <Patchwork> Given the insistence that Tosiaki demonstrates... is it really necessary to reach an agreement with him? Not to devalue his opinion, but I do not think that one hold out should have sway over what seems to be the majority of the userbase.
[21:00] <Choja> <3 momi
[21:01] <@K> Praises to Momiji
[21:01] <Kapow> tosi won't change his mind
[21:01] <Ataisai> If for nothing, else, I want to talk to Tosi PURELY for the chance to ask him where in balls he got that number from
[21:01] <glasnost> what did kakashi spirit news used to be, out of curiosity?
[21:01] <Drake> yeah patch we've sort of been over this, not sure why people are even bringing tosi into the main equation here
[21:01] <@K> Kakashi Spirit News used to be Kakashi Spirit News
[21:01] <@K> :V
[21:01] <Choja> Tosi is not part of the equation anymore
[21:01] <Drake> exactly
[21:01] <Patchwork> Alright, that is nice to hear.
[21:01] <glasnost> ahaha
[21:01] <@K> I'm glad that it at least LOOKS like we're reaching some sort of civil conclusion.
[21:01] <Ataisai> K: que?
[21:01] <@K> At least, to some of the matters at hand.
[21:02] <Patchwork> I dislike being rude, but at a certain point you simply have to take a firm stand.
[21:02] <anon> I think we've come to the majority of returning to ability, and making sure the phrasing is in the ability section. Correct?
[21:02] <Drake> haha
[21:02] <SupremeBogus> mm
[21:02] <Patchwork> That sounds good to me.
[21:02] <Choja> phrasing?
[21:02] <Choja> oh right
[21:02] <~Momiji> it was 'Kakashi Thoughtographic Report' for a short period of time
[21:02] <Choja> yeah, in the abilities page
[21:02] <Drake> patch: that's what tosiaki says when targeted for editing things too quickly
[21:02] <SupremeBogus> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Characters/Abilities
[21:02] <anon> yeah abilities page.
[21:02] <Keine-tan> Title: Characters/Abilities - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[21:02] <Choja> okay yeah that works
[21:02] <Kapow> just put a whole big paragraph or two at the top of that page explaining this whole thing
[21:02] <Choja> it was already there anyways
[21:03] <Kapow> and be done with it
[21:03] <Drake> I think I'd like to mention it explicitly on the wiki that we'd be reverting
[21:03] <Choja> just keep it there and reword it a bit
[21:03] <glasnost> thoughtographic report?
[21:03] <glasnost> oh dear
[21:03] <Choja> Yes please, Drake.
[21:03] <glasnost> thank you for changing it back
[21:03] <anon> Yeah that would be good Drake
[21:03] <Kapow> yeah it needs to be reworked, it doesn't actually explain what it means
[21:03] <Kapow> ...huh, thoughtography is actually kind of a word
[21:03] <Drake> Thoughtography is the english term
[21:03] <Ataisai> Oh, and Polaris, Kap, Choja: that was from Tewi's page.
[21:04] <Drake> but it's still terrible and unintuitive
[21:04] <Patchwork> If it has not been said, I would like to note that changes like the decision to turn ghost into 'yurei' and such should probably be reversed as well, with a separate page to denote the finer workings of ZUN's definitions.
[21:04] <Choja> It is, but Tosaki hamfisted it wwww
[21:04] <Polaris> I figured, but I was wondering where that number came from
[21:04] <Kapow> very obscure word
[21:04] <Drake> Yes, Patch.
[21:04] <Ataisai> Pol: I would LOVE to know that myself.
[21:04] <Kapow> oh yes, all the ghosts
[21:04] <Ataisai> I reallywould.
[21:04] <anon> First should we start changing the ablities back just to make sure it happens?
[21:04] <@K>  // number chosen by fair die roll
[21:04] <Kapow> I'm in favor of standardizing the translation of all the ghost-related things
[21:04] <@K>  // guaranteed to be random
[21:05] <Drake> I'm posting in the usual place, hang on.
[21:05] <@K>  return 4;
[21:05] <SupremeBogus> lol
[21:05] <Patchwork> I have to admit that, given that this is an English language wiki, I feel as though we should minimize the usage of Japanese words where possible.
[21:05] <Ataisai> K: snrk
[21:05] <Choja> Anyways, yeah, the agreement is that we are returning to Abilities as a simple form for character profiles and moving the explanation of ZUN's "capability" formality in the Abilities page, right?
[21:05] <Kapow> we have pages for all the "species" already, so just link to those and explain "by ghost we mean yuurei, which is this and that"
[21:05] <Patchwork> Simply for the sake of readability and accessability.
[21:05] <@K> Patchwork: yes, I did say this earlier
[21:05] <~Momiji> Patchwork: that comes back to the 'tengu > goblin' thing
[21:05] <C27> Patchwor: Yeah, indeed
[21:05] <Kapow> goblin doesn't mean tengu though
[21:05] <Choja> Patchwork: I suggested having separate pages for the Japanese terms in the wiki, but using English terms with the links to the Japanese terms
[21:05] <C27> Tengu are different from goblins though.
[21:05] <@K> <K> It is important to remember that the English Touhou Wiki is a wiki for English-speaking Touhou fans. (boy, I don't know why I have to say something as redundant as this, but...)
[21:05] <@K> <K> Naturally, having readable English content is important. Knowing Japanese is a nice bonus, but it should be just that: a bonus.
[21:05] <@K> <K> Not a pre-requisite for reading the wiki.
[21:05] <SupremeBogus> not all words can work into english though
[21:06] <Patchwork> That seems quite fair, Choja.
[21:06] <Patchwork> I like that.
[21:06] <~Momiji> goblin is used for tengu in a lot of english stuff about well, tengu
[21:06] <Drake> oh god we're getting messy again
[21:06] <Choja> whoa whoa
[21:06] <Choja> slow down
[21:06] <Drake> Can we stick to one thing
[21:06] <Kapow> I haven't heard of that
[21:06] <Drake> please
[21:06] <C27> Tengu, kappa, youkai are different enough to keep their Japanese names
[21:06] <Patchwork> And yes, I would be for changing the abilities sections back to the old formatting soon.
[21:06] <C27> Ghosts, zombies, etc are not
[21:06] <Patchwork> Simply to make sure it gets done.
[21:06] <@K> Of course, a certain bit of specialized vocabulary is essential.
[21:06] <Kapow> the issue is how closely the concept matches up
[21:06] <Kapow> we don't have anything like kappa in western mythology
[21:06] <anon> Yeah what patch said: I think we should change the abilities. Then get back to the ghosts and the like.
[21:07] <glasnost> oh dear
[21:07] <C27> Tengus are not little psychotic green guys drssed in rags that assault dwarf fortresses
[21:07] <Kapow> but we definitely have ghosts
[21:07] <glasnost> which side of the threshold does oni/ogre fall on
[21:07] <Choja> Kappa can still have their own page even if it doesn't have a direct English term
[21:07] <Ataisai> a) I think we're all pretty familiar with what tengu are, b) tengu and goblin are much farther apart than ghost and yuurei, and c) for those that aren't, there's a page on the wiki telling you all about tengu
[21:07] <C27> Oni.
[21:07] <glasnost> personally i like oni
[21:07] <Kapow> I'd go with oni
[21:07] <SupremeBogus> id keep oni
[21:07] <glasnost> oh good, that was much simpler that i feared it might be
[21:07] <C27> Kappa, likewise, are not the same as vodyanoi/rusalka/mermaids/etc.
[21:07] <Kapow> honestly it's way too late to change something like that
[21:07] <SupremeBogus> ditch the yuurei bourei crap though
[21:07] <C27> yeah
[21:07] <Kapow> there's already a billion things translated using "oni"
[21:08] <Kapow> and "tengu"
[21:08] <Ataisai> >vodyanoi/rusalka
[21:08] <Ataisai> ?
[21:08] <Kapow> all the doujins, etc.
[21:08] <Patchwork> I would keep oni as well.
[21:08] <Ataisai> russian...?
[21:08] <C27> Those are both human-ish water monsters
[21:08] <@K> Terms for Japanese mythological creatures that the Western world is aware should be preserved.
[21:08] <~Momiji> i let toshi do the 'yuurei/bourei' thing, with the very specific understanding that he fill out those articles enough that 'yuurei' and 'bourei' be understood as specific things
[21:08] <C27> though a rusalka is technically a ghost
[21:08] <~Momiji> and well
[21:08] <Kapow> it's not an issue of inaccuracy, and the japanese term is well-known in the fandom by this point, so there's no harm in leaving it
[21:08] <~Momiji> it doesn't look like a lot of it was understood
[21:09] <Choja> The articles were accurate, but the implementation in other pages was not very concise
[21:09] <Drake> he extrapolated his own meaning out of what you said
[21:09] <@K> After all, I'm pretty sure that tengu aren't some incredibly obscure creature
[21:09] <C27> yeah
[21:09] <Ataisai> I wonder if "vodyanoi" is where they got the name for the Vodalians (merfolk kingdom in M:tG)
[21:09] <~Momiji> yeah pretty much
[21:09] <C27> Probably.
[21:09] <~Momiji> frankly i'd rather have someone actually write up a nice description for yuurei/bourei than just move it all back
[21:10] <~Momiji> but yeah
[21:10] <~Momiji> whatever works
[21:10] <Kapow> I think there should be a nice description AND it should be changed back to ghost
[21:10] <@K> Article: Ghost
[21:10] <Kapow> put the description in the "ghost" article
[21:10] <@K> hey yo there are different KINDS of ghost
[21:10] <@K> we've got:
[21:10] <glasnost> yeah, there should absolutely be a description in the "ghost" page
[21:10] <@K> ===Yuurei===
[21:10] <Choja> Ghost should be a disambiguation page www
[21:10] <@K> ===Bourei===
[21:10] <glasnost> because i know there is a description *somewhere*
[21:10] <C27> So listt hem all under Ghost
[21:10] <Kapow> translate yuurei to one term, bourei to another
[21:10] <~Momiji> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Yuurei
[21:10] <@K> ===Ayanami Rei===
[21:10] <Keine-tan> Title: Yuurei - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[21:10] <glasnost> but it sure as hell is not there
[21:11] <Choja> WHAT REI IS NOT A GHOST HOW RUDE
[21:11] <Patchwork> I concur with this.
[21:11] <~Momiji> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Bourei
[21:11] <Patchwork> Switch back to Ghost.
[21:11] <Keine-tan> Title: Bourei - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[21:11] <@K> But it rhymes!
[21:11] <glasnost> ===Amuro Ray===
[21:11] <~Momiji> it does do this already
[21:11] <C27> You also have ZOMBIE GOASTS too
[21:11] <Patchwork> Keep the distinction noted on the species page.
[21:11] <glasnost> ===Gamma Ray===
[21:11] <Kapow> we don't want to just translate both of them to "ghost" because then you can't tell which one it was originally
[21:11] <Kapow> if we use two different terms and explain elsewhere that one corresponds to "yuurei" and one is "bourei"
[21:11] <C27> I'm saying, one Ghost page with a description of the different types
[21:11] <Kapow> then people can tell which is which
[21:12] <Patchwork> Well, we certainly have enough variants of "ghost" to manage that.
[21:12] <Polaris> Wasn't yuurei originally phantom and bourei originally ghost
[21:12] <C27> We don't eed to make this overcomplicated
[21:12] <Patchwork> Ghost, spectre, phantom, wraith, etc.
[21:12] <C27> PLus halfghosts.
[21:12] <Kapow> there's plenty of english synonyms to cover all the japanese terms here
[21:12] <C27> They should be mentioned too
[21:12] <@K> "Talk:Touhou Wiki/Editor Corner/Archive 1 ... 14 KB (2,324 words) - 02:04, 4 January 2012"
[21:12] <@K> Much simpler times.
[21:12] <Drake> They were both ghost at one point.
[21:12] <Kapow> we just need to come up with a standard of translation
[21:12] <Kapow> and stick to it
[21:12] == Kliff [~jeredcain@qq-E6237504.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout]
[21:12] <@K> "Talk:Touhou Wiki/Editor Corner ... 78 KB (13,147 words) - 01:57, 1 May 2012"
[21:12] <Drake> And then they became phantom and ghost.
[21:12] <~Momiji> the other issue i have is just blankly copying wikipedia articles
[21:13] <@K> Much more complex times.
[21:13] <Kapow> see, that's perfect then
[21:13] <Kapow> the issue was already resolved
[21:13] <Choja> K: yes please keep it simple
[21:13] <~Momiji> instead of actually doing the work to write up an original article body
[21:13] <Choja> like i have to tell this a billion times?? :(
[21:13] <C27> yeah, plagiairizing ain't cool
[21:13] <~Momiji> no, it's not plagiarizing, but it's just lame
[21:14] <Drake> okay uh can i big-paste here
[21:14] <Kapow> pastebin?
[21:14] <Drake> i'm just posting a blurb on the editor corner
[21:14] <Drake> yeah hang on
[21:14] <~Momiji> i dunno if you guys remembered, but i had sefam redo a couple of main character articles in the lead up to TD's release
[21:14] <~Momiji> they were great
[21:14] <anon> Toshiaki was the only one copy+pasteing right though right?
[21:14] <Drake> http://pastebin.com/4AYpSf0Y
[21:14] <Keine-tan> Title: Okay, after much deliberation over IRC, we've come to the conclusion that it's b - Pastebin.com (at pastebin.com)
[21:14] <~Momiji> anon: i don't keep track over people who copypaste from wikipedia
[21:15] <Polaris> Kind of unrelated, but I'm kind of annoyed by stuff like "Cats (猫, neko), scientifically known as Felis catus are domestic animals created and kept as pets by humans."
[21:15] <anon> Alright just looking at his contributes he has lots that are commented essentially a copy+paste from Wikipedia)
[21:15] <@K> Drake: Might I suggest wikilinking a few of those words?
[21:15] <Polaris> Shouldn't we be keeping things relevant to Touhou ?_?
[21:15] <Drake> What do you mean
[21:16] <@K> For example: The awkward and ambiguous phrasing that ZUN uses and what it signifies will be detailed in [[Characters/Abilities|the general Abilities page]].
[21:16] <~Momiji> http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Cat&action=history
[21:16] <Keine-tan> Title: Revision history of "Cat" - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[21:16] <Drake> Oh you mean just putting those in the wiki ad verbatim
[21:16] <Ataisai> the hell
[21:16] <@K> Polaris: indeed
[21:16] <Drake> I was actually just wondering if I wrote everything accurately enough.
[21:17] <Ataisai> does Touhou really have a bunch of information on cats specific to the games?
[21:17] <Kapow> it has zero
[21:17] <Kapow> and there's zero on the page
[21:17] <Drake> Kasha and Nekomata?
[21:17] <Polaris> Well we don't need to get specific
[21:17] <Polaris> since they're already divided
[21:17] <Choja> meow
[21:17] <@K> "Capable of..." was cool, but that might just be reopening a can of worms.
[21:17] <Kapow> really the only point of that page is to have subpages for kasha and nekomata
[21:18] <Choja> cool, but too cool
[21:18] <@K> too cool for school
[21:18] <Kapow> and to include sokrates I guess
[21:18] <Choja> anyways, so we're done with the major changes then?
[21:18] <Drake> so do i post this or not
[21:18] <Drake> :I
[21:18] <Kapow> drake: sounds good to me
[21:18] <@K> Drake: I like it.
[21:18] <anon> Post it.
[21:18] <Choja> yes
[21:18] == Drunk_Aya [Xavier@qq-8EE3CF84.hr.hr.cox.net] has quit [Quit:  Well, I better get my hitbox hi-- *PICHUN*]
[21:18] <@K> Maybe put it in a new topic on the page.
[21:19] <Kapow> actually wait
[21:19] <Drake> oops hit submit too late, i'll do it over
[21:19] <Polaris> I can try rewriting the cat article and see how you like it
[21:19] <Ataisai> Kap: oh right, forgot about Sokrates.
[21:19] <Choja> everyone forgets about Sokrates
[21:19] <Kapow> are we doing "Ability to do a thing" or "Ability: doing a thing"
[21:19] <SupremeBogus> Ability: ability to do a thing ;uuuu
[21:19] <glasnost> i like :
[21:19] <@K> Phrasings like that are forbidden.
[21:20] <Ataisai> Pol: I've already got you covered.
[21:20] <Ataisai> "Sits on whatever you're doing. Pointedly meows at you until fed."
[21:20] <C27> "Ability: Do a thing" is probably better
[21:20] <Choja> ZUN's Ability: Get really drunk.
[21:20] <Ataisai> there's your article.
[21:20] <Choja> okay so everyone is totally happy now right
[21:20] <Drake> [23:19] <SupremeBogus> Ability: ability to do x
[21:20] <C27> Well, whatever you feel goes with the rest of the article best
[21:20] <@K> I'll tack on a reply affirming the "All Clear" status, and also say that channel logs can be provided for those who are paranoid and doubt us-- I mean, wish to see them
[21:20] <~Momiji> Choja: what if zun doesn't drink a lot of beer
[21:20] <Drake> it's always been like that before, redundancy there is fine imo
[21:20] <Patchwork> I do like the "Ability: Ability to do X" format.
[21:20] <Ataisai> Only because I spiked everyone's drink with Valium, Choj
[21:21] <Kapow> that's unnecessary redundancy
[21:21] <Choja> WHAT EW ATAI
[21:21] <glasnost> i could be happier
[21:21] <glasnost> like if someone went to work for me tomorrow
[21:21] <@K> Eh, I find redundancy of that type to be unnecessary.
[21:21] <glasnost> that would make me really happy
[21:21] <Kapow> the only thing it changes is the conjugation
[21:21] <Choja> i'll volun
[21:21] <Choja> wait no i'm going to be dead after work never mind
[21:21] <@K> Repeating an ability in the infobox, intro paragraph, and detailed Abilities section is acceptable.
[21:21] <Choja> ;_:
[21:21] <Patchwork> Though, yes, it is redundant.
[21:21] <@K> But repeating "Ability" in the infobox seems to be too much.
[21:21] <Choja> K jaywalks
[21:22] <Ataisai> wait
[21:22] <Choja> but is fine with arson and murder
[21:22] <@K> Why yes I do.
[21:22] <Choja> www
[21:22] <@K> Why yes I am not
[21:22] <Drake> ok done
[21:22] <Patchwork> I am glad that we seem to be working this situation out now.
[21:22] <Ataisai> yeah, "Ability: Stopping of time" is fine, but "Ability: The ability to stop time" would look really dumb.
[21:22] <Kapow> http://en.touhouwiki.net/index.php?title=Remilia_Scarlet&oldid=220011
[21:22] <Kapow> like this
[21:22] <Drake> i think you'll all see what I did there.
[21:22] <Keine-tan> Title: Remilia Scarlet - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[21:23] <Kapow> "Abilities" on the left, "Manipulation of fate" on the right
[21:23] <Patchwork> Reimu will have an amusing ability descriptor.
[21:23] <Patchwork> Ability: Floating
[21:23] <Choja> That's a pretty good skill
[21:23] <Drake> float in the sky
[21:23] <Choja> if only she had regen and reraise
[21:23] <Drake> **********
[21:23] <Patchwork> Float is undeniably helpful, yes.
[21:23] <Patchwork> She can avoid traps this way.
[21:23] <Kapow> float on
[21:23] <Ataisai> end of rine?
[21:23] <Choja> Summary of tonight: Tosiaki saved the wiki by being completely stupid. \o/
[21:23] <Drake> http://en.touhouwiki.net/wiki/Talk:Touhou_Wiki/Editor_Corner
[21:23] <@K> Drake: why is 9.8 before 9.5 haha
[21:23] <Keine-tan> Title: Talk:Touhou Wiki/Editor Corner - Touhou Wiki - Characters, games, locations, and more (at en.touhouwiki.net)
[21:24] <~Momiji> yep
[21:24] <Choja> let's all thank tosi by kicking him in the dick more please don't hurt me momi
[21:24] <Drake> ;)
[21:24] <@K> (I mean, sure, it's on the top of the page, but I was scouring the bottom of the page looking for your post)
[21:24] <Choja> also uh he never woke up did he
[21:24] <~Momiji> but i thought you liked it =[
[21:24] <Drake> Fuck if I want to wade through that wall lol
[21:24] <~Momiji> i doubt it
[21:24] <@K> SAME
[21:24] <@K> I thought the new additions to the wall were on the bottom. D:
[21:24] <Choja> momi did you accidentally kick his dick so hard you killed him
[21:24] <Choja> you horrible person
[21:25] <~Momiji> oh crap
[21:25] <@K> Choja: all 3 of em
[21:25] <~Momiji> =[
[21:25] <Drake> i edited the upper tree
[21:25] <Regris> what, dickkicking where
[21:25] <Drake> instead of adding a new section
[21:25] <Choja> okay whatever patch glas kapow we did what we came here to do, right? ahaha
[21:25] <~Momiji> oh right
[21:25] == mode/#touhouwiki [-b Treia!*@*] by Momiji
[21:25] <glasnost> oh man
[21:25] <glasnost> just leave it set
[21:25] <Choja> i apologize, i think treia is always stupid
[21:25] <glasnost> trust me on this one
[21:25] <~Momiji> who are they anyway
[21:25] <anon> Right so we got it. Start switching everything to Ability:. And it'll stay that way now. I love you guys
[21:25] == mode/#touhouwiki [+b Treia!*@*] by Momiji
[21:26] <~Momiji> wait wait, Ability: ?
[21:26] <Regris> Choja's Ability: Kae
[21:26] <Choja> NO GO AWAY
[21:26] <anon> Abilities Manipulation of fate - right in the remilla article kapow posted.
[21:26] <Ataisai> Ability: Cape ability
[21:26] <Ataisai> (Wriggle)
[21:27] <C27> MOMIJI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guVA9nYEjWU
[21:27] <Keine-tan> Title: Juicy Karkass - Punch Em In the Dick - YouTube (at www.youtube.com)
[21:27] <Regris> that's... a terrible pun
[21:27] <Ataisai> I try.
[21:27] <Patchwork> >Treia was banned
[21:27] <~Momiji> so we're just undoing absolutely everything?
[21:27] <Patchwork> Yeah, leave that in place.
[21:27] <Drake> seems that way
[21:27] <~Momiji> aw'right
[21:27] <Choja> Everything got complicated.
[21:27] <Ataisai> Thank /god/
[21:27] <~Momiji> yeah
[21:28] <Choja> I don't understand why
[21:28] <Drake> just adding pages everywhere
[21:28] <~Momiji> that was 2 months of nonsense
[21:28] <Drake> yeah basically
[21:28] <Drake> fuck
[21:28] <Patchwork> It's lovely that this has been resolved.
[21:28] <Choja> don't make things harder to understand
[21:28] <anon> Not absoultely everything. We have a new paragraph in the ability page.
[21:28] <~Momiji> and i'll be waiting for my phone to go off in the middle of the night
[21:28] <anon> Yay.
[21:28] <~Momiji> :P
[21:28] <Drake> [23:28] <anon> Not absoultely everything. We have a new paragraph in the ability page.
[21:28] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> until he comes back...
[21:28] <Drake> yes
[21:28] <Patchwork> Though it took significantly more effort and time than strictly necessary.
[21:28] <Choja> excuse me while i insult nazeo more
[21:28] <~Momiji> pfffhahahaa
[21:28] <Patchwork> Having it done feels like an accomplishment.
[21:28] <Ataisai> Let this event hereafter be known as The Great Unfucking
[21:28] <glasnost> [23:28:21] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> until he comes back...
[21:28] <~Momiji> yeah
[21:28] <glasnost> aaaaah
[21:28] <anon> But we did it. High fives.
[21:28] <Choja> ew gross
[21:28] <~Momiji> no
[21:28] <~Momiji> screw that
[21:28] <glasnost> that feels like the scare chord at the end of the movie
[21:29] <Drake> "The Great Unfucking"
[21:29] <glasnost> and then next summer they release "Touhou Wiki 2: Electric Boogaloo"
[21:29] <Choja> we were watching panty and stocking with garterbelt
[21:29] <Ataisai> pfft
[21:29] <glasnost> "Revenge of Tosiaki: The Book: The Comic: The Movie"
[21:29] <Choja> and that was the first thing we thought of, drake
[21:30] <Patchwork> Touhou Wiki 2: Electric Boogaloo the Sequel: Saturday Night Fever
[21:30] <Ataisai> I guess maybe "The Great Unfucking of The Wiki"
[21:30] <Ataisai> puts some needed context in there
[21:30] <Choja> man what is your obssession with fuckin'
[21:30] <Kapow> Touhou Wiki 2.5: Sunday Afternoon Influenza
[21:30] <Ataisai> Well
[21:30] <Choja> it is not like you are koishi or something
[21:30] <SupremeBogus> someone needs to archive this event and create a wiki chronicle thing so that we can always remember it
[21:30] <Choja> name it "NEVER DO THIS EVER AGAIN"
[21:31] <Ataisai> ...I'll go with that.
[21:31] <Choja> can we make guidelines for editting
[21:31] <Choja> so i don't have to eat a billion non-processed edits
[21:31] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> there's a page for that
[21:31] <Drake> Furthermore, Yuugi's title is "the spoken-of anomalies, strength, disorder, and spirits."
[21:31] <Drake> do we change the title as well
[21:31] <Ataisai> Iba: but does anybody read it?
[21:31] <Drake> yay/nay
[21:31] <Choja> yes
[21:31] <anon> yes
[21:31] <glasnost> absolutely yes
[21:32] <Patchwork> Yea
[21:32] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> @atai: dunno?
[21:32] <SupremeBogus> what else did he change
[21:32] <Ataisai> jesus christ, YES
[21:32] == KyoriAsh [~Kyo@A68C9BAE.FFEC5DFF.1B94895.IP] has joined #touhouwiki
[21:32] <Choja> oh hell no! ATTACK THE DARK COURT
[21:32] * Choja level 9999 dark slayer
[21:32] <Drake> also
[21:32] <Ibaraki_Ibuki> @atai: i don't keep track of everyone who sees it...
[21:32] <KyoriAsh> also
[21:32] <Drake> "The Spoken-of Unexplainable Phenomenon" or "The So-Called Unexplainable Phenomenon"
[21:32] <KyoriAsh> drake distrubed my edit
[21:32] <Choja> So-Called in my opinion
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> 9.8 should be below of 9.5......
[21:33] <Drake> nope
[21:33] <~Momiji> hahahaa kyori
[21:33] <~Momiji> where have you been
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> section put at the wrong place
[21:33] <~Momiji> you missed the big event
[21:33] <Drake> it's at the right place
[21:33] <Ataisai> Iba: maybe you guys should pull a little Clockwork Orange; strap all editors into a chair, pry their eyelids open, and force them to read it
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> I'd been fed up with mIRC fequent disconnection
[21:33] <Drake> sorry i killed your edit though
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> I know I missed the event
[21:33] <~Momiji> stop using mirc then
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> no
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> software disconnection
[21:33] <~Momiji> :P
[21:33] <KyoriAsh> not only mIRC
[21:33] <@K> FFFF EDITOR CONFLICTS
[21:33] <@K> I just wanna talk :(
[21:33] <Choja> okay K
[21:33] <Choja> tell us about your childhood
[21:34] <Choja> i mean, damn it, okay what do you want to talk about
[21:34] <KyoriAsh> YAY T been COOL OFF!
[21:34] <~Momiji> yes
[21:34] <@K> "Okay let me just copy paste my text back up into the main edit box"
[21:34] <@K> "Oh, I'll touch up this sentence"
[21:34] <@K> "ANOTHER EDITOR CONFLICT"
[21:34] <KyoriAsh> BTW I just woke up
[21:34] <@K> "Aw..."
[21:34] <~Momiji> lol
[21:34] <KyoriAsh> the big event takes place during 6:xx am to 11:xx am
[21:34] <KyoriAsh> where I'm sleeping
[21:35] <KyoriAsh> any log to see?
[21:35] <KyoriAsh> 11:00 . . Momiji (Talk | contribs | block) blocked Tosiaki (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled) (Please take a 1 week break from the wiki.)
[21:35] <Choja> okay glas now go tell everyone to pipe down and calm their tits please
[21:35] <Choja> everyone
[21:35] <Ataisai> out in the firewood pile
[21:35] <~Momiji> you should be calm anyway =|