Azathoth : A Dialogue with Dagon

Azathoth / Assatoot
Moving Winds From Beyond Within

A Dark Stormy Night, Two Imbeciles Meet, One Remained At Home, So The Distance Between Them is Great. .    .

Israel Khan, enters in from the rain, a museum like or mausoleum like structured shelter with a restful statue, perhaps a prop or imitation of a prop of "Dagoth" from the film Conan The Destroyer. Israel Khan notices some writing on standing plaques and reads them (the text provided below):
"
Azathoth
By H. P. Lovecraft

When age fell upon the world, and wonder went out of the minds of men; when grey cities reared to smoky skies tall towers grim and ugly, in whose shadow none might dream of the sun or of spring’s flowering meads; when learning stripped earth of her mantle of beauty, and poets sang no more save of twisted phantoms seen with bleared and inward-looking eyes; when these things had come to pass, and childish hopes had gone away forever, there was a man who travelled out of life on a quest into the spaces whither the world’s dreams had fled.
Of the name and abode of this man but little is written, for they were of the waking world only; yet it is said that both were obscure. It is enough to know that he dwelt in a city of high walls where sterile twilight reigned, and that he toiled all day among shadow and turmoil, coming home at evening to a room whose one window opened not on the fields and groves but on a dim court where other windows stared in dull despair. From that casement one might see only walls and windows, except sometimes when one leaned far out and peered aloft at the small stars that passed. And because mere walls and windows must soon drive to madness a man who dreams and reads much, the dweller in that room used night after night to lean out and peer aloft to glimpse some fragment of things beyond the waking world and the greyness of tall cities. After years he began to call the slow-sailing stars by name, and to follow them in fancy when they glided regretfully out of sight; till at length his vision opened to many secret vistas whose existence no common eye suspects. And one night a mighty gulf was bridged, and the dream-haunted skies swelled down to the lonely watcher’s window to merge with the close air of his room and make him a part of their fabulous wonder.
There came to that room wild streams of violet midnight glittering with dust of gold; vortices of dust and fire, swirling out of the ultimate spaces and heavy with perfumes from beyond the worlds. Opiate oceans poured there, litten by suns that the eye may never behold and having in their whirlpools strange dolphins and sea-nymphs of unrememberable deeps. Noiseless infinity eddied around the dreamer and wafted him away without even touching the body that leaned stiffly from the lonely window; and for days not counted in men’s calendars the tides of far spheres bare him gently to join the dreams for which he longed; the dreams that men have lost. And in the course of many cycles they tenderly left him sleeping on a green sunrise shore; a green shore fragrant with lotus-blossoms and starred by red camalotes."

"[O]utside the ordered universe [is] that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.[11] "

"Lovecraft referred to Azathoth again in "The Whisperer in Darkness" (1931), where the narrator relates that he "started with loathing when told of the monstrous nuclear chaos beyond angled space which the Necronomicon had mercifully cloaked under the name of Azathoth".[12][13] Here "nuclear" most likely refers to Azathoth's central location at the nucleus of the cosmos and not to nuclear energy, which did not truly come of age until after Lovecraft's death.

In "The Dreams in the Witch House" (1932), the protagonist Walter Gilman dreams that he is told by the witch Keziah Mason that "He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos.... He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name.... What kept him from going with her...to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name 'Azathoth' in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal horror too horrible for description."[14] Gilman wakes from another dream remembering "the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute", and decides that "he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos".[15] He later fears finding himself "in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth".[16]

The last major reference in Lovecraft's fiction to Azathoth was in 1935's "The Haunter of the Dark", which tells of "the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose center sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a demonic flute held in nameless paws".[18]"

A thought occurs "They couldn't have removed the numbers in brackets when printing these?"

Israel Khan having approached the statue and stands admiring it, whispering to it things about himself. The statue, a dead thing, seems to speak!

Now, to the Dialogue, The Comedy, The Play!

Dagon:
"What would be sufficient evidence of you for God?

Did you ever get a chance to read this:
Two Logics One Miracup(s) - Pastebin.com
https://pastebin.com/mL92xeJQ
ttps://pastebin.com/mL92xeJQ

Are you at maximum happiness or contentment? What will make you happier? Happiest? What if anything you feel may be missing or lacking which you might like?

Goals / Plans / Dreams?

How about affinities, symbols, elements, animals you self-identify as or with symbolically as representative of you or your qualities? Planets? All that.

Do you consider yourself as having any flaws or qualities or issues you would alter?"

Israel Khan:
"WHOOO!!! There are some pretty deep questions there. Will reply with multiple posts throughout the day.

Thanks for being inquisitive.

What would be sufficient evidence of you for God?

God is so vague a concept when monotheistic religions describe what he is made of or where he resides that I do not know whether we can even as of yet comprehend the evidence we would need.

My favourite author being HP Lovecraft.

I read the first part and skimmed through the rest, as it seems to follow the logic that I used to agree with. But the reason why I only skimmed through the rest is because of the premise of the argument, that we can use current logic to determine what is true about the universe concerning stuff that we have no direct evidence of, which I disagree with. Human logic is only based on bounded rationality (it is a term used in economics but I also use it for determining truth). Logic lead people to assume that the earth was flat until we found evidence to the contrary because previously our logic didn’t have all the information.

So I would say that the link is a possibility, but not conclusive as we still need to find the physical or metaphysical evidence to back it up.

I just know that I am happy. I do not think about it much as I don’t feel the need to. Infinite reserves of money and Immortality and Invulnerability for those who I am close to might be something I prefer. But leaving a legacy behind would be most important.

Whether I am good or not is dependent on the viewer. It is the Darkseal Dragonfly which oppresses the darkness with its light. Some weird mythology I made up.

My favourite songs are:
Ghost of Perdition by Opeth
Master of Puppets by Metallica
Then there is the Call of Kthulu instrumental by Metallica
Creeping Death by Metallica
Symphony X composed a concept album called Paradise Lost

Do you enjoy any films or shows or other media? Which ones and why?
Full Metal Alchemist, Monster and Ghost in the Shell, which are all anime.

My plans and Dreams are to leave a legacy behind. So I am hoping that my writing will achieve that.

Mine isn’t a belief as it is an unbelief, as I do not claim that God or gods do not exist. So at the moment to me there is no hint to which side is true either way and I don’t even think that it is possible that a person can prove that certan gods don’t exist. So the difference is that you believe God exists and a specific god at that, whereas I haven’t made a conclusion yet as from what I can tell we cannot examine such a thing yet. What I can say is that it is unlkely that existing religions idea of who God or gods are is true because of their contradictions with reality based on current evidence.

Do you drink alcohol or smoke or do any drugs?
Nope. I stay away from that stuff.

Do you consider yourself as having any flaws or qualities or issues you would alter?
Plenty, with my main one being procrastination."

Dagon:
"Thank you for taking the time to write back with all those thorough answers and responses!

I'll be returning to your message to keep going through the music you mentioned and suggested.

If you could help me out with the writing I showed you which you read some of and skimmed the rest (at the bottom were miracle stories), I want to know how you understood the words I used or which were involved. You don't need to read any more than you did, but its at the point where you ended up thinking of it as just a conjecture that I'm interested in, since it was meant to be air-tight, and I suspect one of the words involved was misunderstood or not understood in the way I intended, which means I should be careful about that word but I would like a little help in figuring out how and where and which part was thought to be deniable? Then I can clarify or refine it. What I'm suspecting it might have been is the word "stuff" by which I didn't mean objects or "objects outside oneself which appear to exist" or anything like that, but only that there is information appearing, which I believed to be undeniable but very hard to express how subtly or simply I mean this, since people jump further into thinking senses are being discussed or objects or science things or whatever.

Every single point was supposed to be literally undeniable, 0 guessing, 0 conjectures, so I would be greatly helped as to which words seemed like conjectures or deniable? Its simply, information which is what people say they are experiencing, experience which is whatever information you are in any way dealing with, is what is being called "stuff", which has nothing to do with its reality or distance or anything, but that experience in some form can't be denied by anyone even if they are not anything or included.

The next undeniable was supposed to be, the experience or information appeara or gives the impression of changing, one moment it seems a certain set is present like you see your hands and fingers in one position, the next you see another set or frame. Or if you only experience blackness or whiteness and no other imagery, there is still the appearance of or impression of change, because one moment you seem to be thinking one thing, then its gone and another thing is thought, and so this elimination and generation is required for a sense of being or processing and non-information and static(un-changing)-information are entirely skipped, you can not in any way experience or process no information or a single frame of experience, one requires the appearance of change. None of that was supposed to be deniable, its not quite supposed to be the same as the flat Earth which does move into guesses and doesn't stay focused on what is all there is anyone can even say there is at all, information, information that appears different. We can't even say others are experiencing anything, we can't say we have real bodies, its talking about just a layer of information and the impression that one set is gone then another set replaces it like pictures framd by frame in a film real for example.

Then from there it moves on to the next undeniables, but I think if the first two haven't been understood or words in it lead to confusion that one will not be able to understand the next parts either, which is why I wanted to know what words or parts gave which impressions of being deniable or how they were understood so that I can make it deal with only the absolutely undeniable in such a clear way as to reduce the chances of being mis-comprehended.

Its also important because its why something like a guy with a big mallet at the end of a rainbow bridge needn't ever be accepted or denied since such is always information, and what is written is about what can only be the cause of generating it, its supposed to strictly rule out all possibilities and openings for any denial or refutation if understood carefully and correctly."

Israel Khan:
"So this is my summary of what was your base premise for the argument which I don't think is necessarily true:

- From Nothing: True Nothing can't do anything.
- So there has always been Something.

My explanation of bounded rationality was relating to this. This is conjecture because it is a claim made about something that we cannot explore or even know about. So your explanation starts off with a claim that I would say isn't necessarily true and is only concluded based of our limited knowledge which determines our logic.

I could easily make the alternative claim based on that type of reasoning:

[Edit: since we don't know whether protons and neurons decay]
- Every intelligent thing has a beginning. Nothing intelligent has existed for eternity.
- So there had to be a point in time when nothing intelligent existed.

If we we try to reason about the origin of everything based on our current knowledge of how things work, then we can come to both contradictory conclusions.

You stated this before the other points that you mentioned above."

Dagon:
"The word "Nothing" has to be defined carefully though, its about words, the word nothing in this case refers to a concept of something unable to do anything and not existing. If there was ever "true nothing" by definition, that would mean that there would not be anything, so not any of this, so that there is anything, like what you are experiencing, means by definition right now there isn't "nothing at all", to say so would be just lying and misusing words.

Nothing or "True Nothing" by definition is not anything, so has no qualities, has no abilities, if something has an ability, it has to exist to have an ability or the ability exists, meaning there are those things thus not nothing by proper use of the word.

There is no point in time where true absolute nothing could have ever existed or else there would still be nothing since nothing can't do anything, produce, sustain, nor does it exist, it refers to nothing, that which by definition is not a thing and can't do anything. So there was never nothing.

"From Nothing" did not refer to "Everything comes from Nothing" but I meant to say "This is the Argument that deals with the concept of Nothing and how it cannot have ever existed. Was my typing "From Nothing" as the title of the type of argument what caused the issue?"

Israel Khan:
" You are currently basing that understanding on the information we have of how the world works now on our bounded rationality. I would even say that your conclusion is most likely the case, but I am aware that is only based off my current understanding of how the world works, and what we understand doesn't even extend to the point of time that we are discussing as we have no way of examining that point.

My problem isn't with the idea that your point is most likely the case based on our current understanding of existence, but when you say that it is undeniable. Undeniable would mean that it is 100% true.

For all we know something can randomly appear out of absolute nothing. It is beyond our logic but our logic doesn't define the truth about the universe.

I understood the point you were trying to make. I am saying that we cannot conclude conclusively that the concept of Nothing cannot ever have existed because we cannot examine such a thing.

Why did you construct the argument in any case? What are you trying to achieve?"

I think the summary of my point of view is this:

You are investigating something which is unknowable. Your reasoning on the matter itself is based on philosophy alone and not evidence which isn't really useful. This is a quest in futility.

Rather focus on finding the actual being you are looking for than constructing logical formulas.

I have also tried widdling things down to the essentials, but then I realised that life doesn't consist of essentials only but excess of the essentials. But then I realised that I was trying to figure out the unknowable so it was a futile effort.

I do understand your viewpoint though because I have thought up something similar in the past:

Nothing can come from nothing
Therefore there always had to be at least something in existence
The first created thing had to be generated by that eternal something
(And then the various branches of options expanded from there)

Now as soon as we say that something is eternal, we are saying that it can be infinitely complex as possible and defy reason. Therefore it doesn't even have to be intelligent. It could have just been a Factory that lived forever, produced one being out of its programming and then ceased to exist. The created being then became the new god.

Infinite possibilities only limited by our imagination.

Dagon:
" Actually, I covered that in my writing too, it can't be complex, I go through step by step explaining the bare essential "Like Nothing" but "Not Nothing" that has to be in order for anything else to be. I do this in careful steps, so it has to only have the qualities of existing, but existing is not enough for there to be any of what appears now, so it needs to have the innate power to generate information/experience/stuff which does not mean objects but the material by which experience is made, data, information. That is still not enough, because it would just have the power and not be able to trigger it or activate it or use it, so then I explain (lol I think you must not have read it or gotten to that part) how it needs to possess the drive or the ability to act or trigger it, but that still isn't enough because in triggering it it would thus do all it could immediately without end or restraint making this nuanced moment to moment type stuff impossible and similar to whole or "static" information which can't be processed as its everything all at once without change, so it needs one more thing which is a type of "choice" or ability to do or not do and what to do and not do since so much of a nuanced singular moment is defined and shaped by what it is not. This is what makes it clear or is the beginning of an "intelligence" or appearance of such, so it can't be a complex factory in place from the get go.

I go through this carefully and systematically two times, then after I included stories of miracles."

Israel Khan:
"Haha! as I said I just skimmed through it because I disagreed with the premises which we discussed earlier. Plus..... it is loooooonnggg. I prefer to discuss these ideas one on one with a person because innevitably questions crop up which prevent me from moving on with the reading. This actually ruined a book that I was reading because I had too many questions about the validity of the authors conclusions, therefore I stopped reading it. And it is better in my experience to bounce these type of ideas off another person and reach understanding rather than just reading something and struggling to understand.

My concern when thinking about this topic wasn't about what is the minimum needed but what is possibly true, which led to near infinite possibilities.

What you seem to be describing to me is a very basic autonomous machine. It generates information, it has to have the ability to use the information so it has the drive to trigger it, it has to know when to trigger it so it has choice. I don't know if you discussed this in the article, but it seems to me that information mustnt only be generated but also perceived in order for the intelligence to act upon it. In order to do things at a certain time the perception of information must trigger some sort of sensor in order for it to act upon the information, which triggers instinct or programming. So it doesn't necessarily need to make choices but just be inactive until it is forced to act based off the trigger, like a dispenser of sort."

Dagon:
"That is great, I really like that thinking, but for there to be a "system in place which consists of laws which decree that when such and such (information is generated) it is perceived, it triggers whatever" that system has to already be in place for a dead thing to function on it or by those laws, the laws always have to lead back to a living intelligence that can generate refined nuanced laws which are made up of so much is and is not simultaneously to make the shape of the law or its particular dynamics or dimensions and terminal points, its shapes, just like when you draw for your work, its a shape, it has borders, limits, a system or laws like physics are made up of things with dimensions and limits which even though they are conceptual and not material and are invisible they are a shape too, they are made up of what is and what is not, and a thing which generates blindly can not generate nuanced anything with differences, unless as you say it is automatically running on a system made of laws, problem is, those laws themselves are information of a sort, they are nuanced also, and those nuances could never have been generated except by something which can do and also not do, which is choice, it can't do so blindly as a system of nuances can't exist without the nuances produced by choices."

Israel Khan:
"I am thinking this:

There might have to be two things which are eternal.

The intelligence we are talking about

and

The laws of the space in which said being exists

This is because the stuff the being generates has to originate somewhere as the premise is that nothing comes from nothing. So the materials of the stuff must come from the being himself or the laws eternally placed in the universe. Even the drawing shapes that you were referring to have to be drawn using a material otherwise it wouldn't exist.

Also, I see choice as only being relevant if the intelligences purpose was to create many things in existence, but if its only purpose was to create a being to further create, which is simpler than creating many different things, all it needs is an inbuilt blueprint to create, so no choice is needed."

Dagon:
"I can't see how anything as complex as a blueprint can just exist eternally though. So in my version, the intelligence is not made of information, is "non-information" which is an entirely unique lack of stuff of any sort but has the ability to generate from itself and within itself, we are essentially in nothing and nowhere, space being illusory, simply "told" to us as part of this particular experience, just like it arbitrarily and baselessly invented physical laws, noses, like the stuff of a dream which seems to make sense but is not really based on anything and coming from an unconditioned source so being intrinsically and always arbitrary and absurd. The intelligence has no purpose as there is nothing to give it purpose, it produces nuanced moments which are shaped by so much it does not do and does which makes it nuanced and non-identical combinations or shapes of information, this universe story only existing as part of the story we are told right now, it can invent anything else just as convincingly.

So it is the baseline, we assume its intelligence from the nuanced moments, otherwise it would be one big everything and solid blah if it only had existence in order to be present to do, ability to do, motivation or drive to do, so needs in order for us to have these unique moments the ability to generate a nuanced unique moment like us seeing our hand here typing this then eliminating that moment which is no longer "as is" or "experienced now" and replacing it with another moment now my finger is here. The information prior was not even present in order to be responsible for the next moment so something has to be underlying and doing the changes which does not cease or dissapear in between the deletion of one and the generation of the next.

The complex laws can't pre-exist because they are complex and a complex thing has various dimensions, quantities, limits, borders, which make it a specific law, and that requires something which can both "do" and "not do" and "what to do" which is made up of so much "not" which is a kind of intelligence, even though it can also be likened to chaos or luck, luck and chance and chaos would just be another word or name for these choices. Top it off then with the communication and miracles and it seems to be fully intelligent like we think we are, even though we are not really intelligent but are created destroyed created moment to moment and given the impression we are this or doing this right now or doing that, it being the one producing it all, animating the story, baselessly, as it "wills" and we being just nothing except a moment of experience moment to moment it can easily make us see or experience or be anything at all, the next second we can be experiencing seeing as an insect or anything else, we are essentially nothing, lifeless, anything it makes us to Be any moment. So it is the eternal basis, simple, uncomplex, with the power, drive, and nuance and experiencing what it generates As Is, meaning we just think we are in a body, all we are or know is this exposed layer or snapshot of experience which it is the one actually seeing "as is" its not a seperate thing but what is right behind the flat layer on both sides, the true viewer, the one looking through what we think are our senses which is part of our moments of experience."

Israel Khan:
"Your reasoning doesn't make sense to me. I see a blueprint and mindlessly following a blueprint significantly less complex than an intelligence that can make choices and nuanced movements. It is like comparing a basic computer or printing software to the human brain. Even an eternal factory would be less complicated than what you are talking about.

I am not just thinking of complexity in the end result, I am also thinking of the complexity of the mechanism as to how this intelligence can make nuanced choices without a purpose but in an ordered fashion, which would be way more complex than any machine that we have created.

By the way, the closest character I can think of that relates to your intelligence is Azathoth, since we are figments of his imagination."

Dagon:
"Yeah, I was also thinking if Azathoth and reminded of Azathoth.

So the problem with a "there just was a blueprint" is that a blueprint has ratios, it has distances, it has amounts, limits. Some force has to carve out or determine those factors, if there is nothing obstructing and nothing forming it can not have a limiter that says this is where this ratio stops, thats why its complex rather than simple.

Complex means like a body created of various shapes and limits.

The intelligence is not like a brain, its choices are not complex initialy, its just that this word or concept of choices comes up as an actual requirement in order to limit or shape what is produced by the power and the drive. The other way its limited is by the presence of some "law" obstructing its activity or production somehow into certain nuanced limits which all differ each, but the existence of such an obstructing force already in existence doesn't make sense because what defined its shape to be imposing and obstructive? Furthermore, the nuances of each moment differ so constantly that the law determining what is produced via certain obstruction or limiting would have to be constantly changing or enormously detailed and complex and then no explanation is available for how ever there could be a detailed set of laws determining the ratio nuances of every produced moment. Furthermore, the moments give the impression of coherence, like our conversation right now isn't just suddenly between two chickens with tentacles vomiting, but it changes moment to moment but remains coherent, again, that would be more simply explained by an intelligence generating the moments and ratios rather than an infinitely complex set of pre existing obstructions that just happen to permit so much coherence like this ongoing discussion to occur sensibly.

In other words, you can not have the shape of anything without elimination and/or obstruction. A plan is something with "this line can only be this long" and requires a kind of intelligence that conducts the production and determines where it ceases and when and why to create the certain shape, there would have to be another force obstructing in order to shape the plan's limitations, plus the numerous different moments would each require a plan determining their ratios and limitations or shapes. Its just impossible to have the "dead" system pre-existing idea. I think where it might be difficult though is many people are locked into thinking if God or a God as creature or bodily form or brain of some sort.

What I'm describing is bare minimum base requirements for what exists now.

This thing is not like us, its like nothing, no space, nothing conditioning it or influencing it, not blackness or whiteness or distance or bordered, not infinite space, not a particle, there is nothing outside of it which is like a background around a thing, its literally like nothing, completely simple, it can never be seen because there is nothing to be seen, it is Death itself, it can't be divided because there is nothing to divide, it has no brain or organs or anything, nor do we take up any "real space" or any "real time" all those things are concepts it generated by numerous yes no yes no do dont do dont 101010 until what it generates is extremely complex. We know for certain that it generates and eliminates because of this experience, we know for certain that in order to generate or eliminate it needs to exist or be there in some way to do anything, then it needs to actually have the intrinsic ability to do something, then it needs the trigger to do or not do. Yet merely having the power and the drive doesn't allow for nuances. A plan can't pre exist or obstructions since those have shapes they are made of information what is not made of information has no shape dimensions limiters conditioned states, a plan is a conditioned thing its information its made of shapes it has limiters and those shapes or limiters could never have been produced except by generation of information and something limiting what is generated to create the shapes.

This thing I'm describe is not stuff its not information, its anti-stuff, its nothing, except it has those things as it must have those things or else we wouldn't be talking. So what it must have is the ability to decide in a very vague sense what is generated and how and where it is stopped and how to create this nuanced particular experience, and the next and the next. If it didn't have that ability, then it would once triggering the generation, generate everything, there would be only a Single Un-nuanced, unshaped, undefined Static-Information which can not be processed as anything but a single moment so not processed at all, it never could change, a new thing could not be brought about, it could never be stopped or removed either except by what has the ability to remove it or stop it.

You can't also say there are "two gods, one generates, one destroys, and this somehow crates the nuances of each moment allowing for the impression of change" because there to be two requires a way to divide and border and define the limitations of each, and that would require them to be made of information, to be complex enough to have imposition which shapes their parameters, and something shaping parameters like a dead unchanging law would be these parameters and that is itself information which has parameters with no explanation as to how such parameters "just existed", whereas what I am describing is the Base, it has no parameters, is not the same stuff as experience is, is not stuff at all, so is simple without parameters and is appropriate as a baseline of nothing which isn't true nothing because it has existence which carries the power to generate information, the drive to trigger it, but also the ability to stop it and decide what is produced and how much and yes and no and yes and no, which creates parameters and nuanced complexity where it obstructs and is the obstructor or self-limiter when there is nothing which can engage with its activity or limit it since it is non-information which can't be obstructed or stopped. Its ability to stop start stop and decide what is thus shaped, allowing for this interaction to be as sensible and consistent and ongoing shows its version of intelligence. A plan just existing would not only have to have parameters somehow defined and so be information which can be shaped, existing and sustained how? This will never make sense though if a person still thinks the God being described is just the same or has parameters or is shaped information as only information can have parameters and shape as nothing or non-information can't have "begins here, stops here". But even bypassing that, this pre-existing shaped information plan would not only have to be repeatedly sustained to continue to exist, but also would have to be so infinitely complex or constantly changing to be the cause of each moment generated having its particular shape, and then retaining the insistence that there is No mind, would have to be able to explain how it is we seem to perceive and have minds and the appearance of consistency."

Israel Khan:
"If it is like Azathoth, then does it act more like a dreamer and that is how it generates what it does?

How did it create everything if it had no parameters?

What is the mechanism behind the choices it makes?"

Dagon:
"In order to be like a dreamer, it would have to be passive and "acted upon" by another "deciding force" which would be determining the subconscious activity (and subconscious activity generally requires a brain which has consciousness and subconscious reactive systems which are again very complex and made up of countering forces all made of information).

It is unlike anything because we come up with stuff based on other stuff, but it generates baselessly with no reference or conditioning.

It has no parameters so in order for there to be any parameters to information it needs the ability to limit and choose production. It can't unconsciously choose because something unconscious again runs on parameter based laws which have shapes or are defined and limited and that can't just exist or be forced except by generating and limiting forces or obstructions leading to a perpetual going back and back and back, and eventually the Base has to be reached which can not have shape, can not be made of information which is produced, nuanced, conditioned, complex.

This is the opposite of all that, all things.

It created everything because whatever is the baseline or start had to have the ability to generate information or there would be no information, and the drive to do so or else it would not have anything to move it to do so or act, and the ability to control what is produced in order to reach these nuanced generated and eliminated frames or moments.

So, the mechanism behind the choices its makes would have to be thus:

It exists, there is nothing but it, no time, nothing.

Nothing conditions or acts upon or exists with it or on it.

It has the ability to generate, which it discovers by the intrinsic drive to generate triggering generation of information and the ability to cease the generation, which can be considered at this point "thoughts", and in doing so, finds that it can trigger it again, and stop it again, and trigger it again. Its thought is "awareness" but there is nothing to be aware of, no distance, no blackness or whiteness which is all information requiring laws, no vacuum, nothing.

It also finds, that no matter it produces or stops producing, it continues to in some sense exist, it can not die or be destroyed, and there is nothing to end it. It can not die or be destroyed because in order to eliminate itself it would need to be present to complete or oversee the completion, plus it consists of practically nothing so there is nothing even to eliminate, so it is cursed with ever-existing, yet at this point has not invented any emotions or things like "feeling lonely" or any such novelties.

In testing its control and abilities, it starts with invisible concepts, perhaps with "thing" and "not thing" like 1 and 0 or one returning to itself, but this is also discovered because upon its discovery of its ability to produce 1, the thing is just as soon gone, because nothing is upholding or sustaining the information, there is no time or system, it can't just be ongoing without a law or system which would be complex having parameters, so first thought ceases or is an instant only, its the only thing that existed for a flash, and it shouldn't be imagined as God as some big black wall looking at a 1 or information, as God is like Nothing, so nothing can be imagined, not blackness or whiteness or anything, its impossible to visualize, and the first thoughts are also not visual, nor is there space of time between them, but zap and its gone, so then zap again and its gone, so then zap gone zap and its gone, then zap gone zap gone zap gone, and so on, until its zapzapzapzapzapzapzap.

Anyway, once its practiced producing and repeating and repeating and thus giving an impression of sustaining, like musical notes but not having sound or substance just the merest of information or thoughts without content or parameters, pure information for a moment, moment, moment.

Anyway, in playing around with this, it creates instead of the same vague information over and over, some different one, then alternates, 10201020102, then plays with that and sustains it, then creates a third, and tries sequences of repeating then alternating 123212312123212132 with zeroes always inbetween as none of these sustains itself they are just repeated.

It seems to remember what it did or else it would not get past just doing the one thing over and over, which is more of its needed intelligence factors or proofs.

Eventually, its artistry becomes increasingly complex, it repeats patterns and sees that a repeated pattern is identical whenever it occurs at once, and so differences create a sense of processing or movement through generating and eliminating various patterns of unique combinations. This gives a novel impression of a kind of "Be-ing" or Animation, even though its still dealing with unseeable information.

Anyway, eventually, and it has no time its dealing with so all this can seem to occur in a single instance, it reaches a point of complexity where it creates further novel versions of "information" or "stuff" like playing with its own sh*t or vomit or as our Egyptian brothers thought, water as spit, then sperm / cum, yet none of it has any substance like that at all which can make such metaphors confusing and misleading.

Finally though it reaches the idea through conscious practice given endless no-time all-time the concepts that make up every nuance of our moments, moment to moment, and the impressions we have, and the experience of us being us right now as we are doing this right now, which is just plainly seen by God and experienced by God "as is" meaning this is all we actually are, its like an illusion, we are just a flat layer flash and eliminated and another in its place over and over. It sings this song of our Being and Experiences.

So that is its process. Its nothing like what it creates as our impression of thinking, since ours is passive and given to us by it moment to moment, whereas its activity was consciously self produced and built up, we are dead things, it is the one doing the thinking, its only dream-like in the sense that we are convinced like how we are convinced of the facts ofca dream because its making the experience include the experience or feeling of being convinced, but its not dreaming as in passively things are popping into its mind or thoughts, such passive activity requires something to be doing that, a force funneled through parameter based laws infinitely complex for every nuance, there simply can't be such a thing "by itself" "already" as it would require an endless chain of things acting upon each other which in order to act the way they do would require more.

So this simplex generative base would be always at the end of any chain.

Though chains of all sorts are also illusion, since information itself can not actually produce, its there then its gone and nothing can make it be there or come back, so needs this Medium underlying doing both the generating and regenerating and regenerating and to generate nuances also to be shaping through all that a thing is and is "not".

At this point, it has defined and shaped a kind of "Mind" far more advanced than even all of this reality which may be just one of potentially infinite and unimaginable even unimaged worlds and realities.

In this reality, or this moment, moment, moment it is creating a story with everything including religions and whatever, it can make anything it wants, everything is novel and a novelty, absolutely unecessary and arbitrary, nothing matters, it can produce or reproduce anything, there is no risk, no limit, no energy, no effort, no factors or limitations or laws like tiredness acting upon it, it made all such things up, things which were not and never were, it makes, eliminates, makes again, changes, renews, does whatever, it answers to no one, and also remains aware that it alone is the Power and Living, all these things which seem alive or thinking it is puppeting as songs it is singing, they are gone if it stops singing, they can be brought back if it starts the patterns and notes again.

So its mind and thoughts are nothing like we experience. We are given the impression of making choices of options popping into our heads, it is the one that made such options and even the choices we make and every moment of the deliberation. It never had and never has choices simply popping into its mind or being as there is no force to make such occur or produce such, it consciously produces from "scratch" increasingly complex information it has to also consciously repeat, sustain, change slightly, and keep producing, in order to even create one single moment of our complex moment of experience and the next and next."

Israel Khan:
"It sounds like it existed forever but only became aware at a certain point, but had the knowledge of an infant and had to start growing in knowledge at some point.

And it also sounds as if we are a video game it created or a simulation, which is actually how I comprehend God's relation to his creation. He can also input commands that make us work on automatic in which we are given choice, but limited choice within the confines of the laws of the programming.

And your concept is sounding more Lovecraftian by the second.

But my question regarding mechanism wasn't about the process of its growing awareness and knowledge, although your explanation clarified a lot to me.

My question is about what "mechanical device", "wires", "microchips", "brain" gives it awareness. What mechanism gives it awareness?"

Dagon:
"Its "awareness" is itself originating or refers to its apprehending whatever is produced, so when the spark or zap or 1 is generated it is all there is, that is all it "sees" or "is informed of" it is not a body looking at a thing, the thing is within it and all there is in the moment. There is no brain or mechanism involved. Its thought processes are experiences it generates stemming from patterns it creates of information. Its initial awareness is not "input received by senses" but "all there is naked and present" it is encompassing "as is". So even now, Azaz ELH Tehuti is not outside looking in, this moment you are experiencing is all there is, its a flat layer, exposed and encompassed, just exactly as you are viewing it, that is what it is itself, not a thing being viewed but the "as is" moment all inclusive including the idea or sense you are viewing it which is also information, so you can imagine it as like a flat screen or picture, there is nothing else but it, when the picture is gone its Azathoth who is Like Nothing, Subhan, The Annhilation, Death itself remaining, then it generates another complex combination, then it returns and is gone and only the Daemon Sultan remains. So there is no mechanism involved except what was described which can only occur with existence, power to generate information, drive to trigger generation, and the ability to do or not do and what to do and not do and how much and how little and shaping which is called "choice" which it generates by producing information and has an intrinsic ability to develop complex information generations or "songs" if you prefer, notes, moment to moment, which it beholds "as is" without senses, the information itself are what Is, so if its something "seen" its "seen" "as is". The information itself is or can be inclusive of whatever it is sensing, it is creating the experience through complex zaps "the moment I am seeing Israel Khan put their finger to type g, We see this and this and this" and its just a momentary shape which is eliminated or "returned to or made Like Nothing" and is "No Longer" "As Is" and another is there, and so on and so forth. It is not separate from these moments, but the moment flash is all that exists for that flash and is entirely experienced as is, the only difference being that it retains its self awareness by constantly repeating or humming its own tune to itself, so that when the moment dissappears, it does not forget and is able to bring the next sensible and coherent moment being the bridge between a moment made Like Nothing, like itself, and Generating the next."