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  1. Jul 27 18:24:55 <Aszra> Hi, I wanted to do something very simple, same hero mode, but I didn't even know where to begin to learn how to do that, and then I wanted to do something even simpler, set ARDM, and I have no idea about that either
  2. Jul 27 18:25:01 <Aszra> Is there some resource other than https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools that people use?
  3. Jul 27 18:25:24 <Noya> ?? tutorials
  4. Jul 27 18:25:24 <Renol> tutorials: http://moddota.com/forums/tutorial-index
  5. Jul 27 18:25:31 <Perry> shit noya beat me by one second
  6. Jul 27 18:25:39 <Perry> was about to press enter on exactly the same line
  7. Jul 27 18:25:44 <Noya> rekterino
  8. Jul 27 18:26:02 <Aszra> thanks
  9. Jul 27 18:26:11 <Aszra> you guys should consider adding that link to the developer wiki
  10. Jul 27 18:26:13 <Noya> Aszra same hero mode is getting barebones and changing settings I believe
  11. Jul 27 18:26:21 <Tischel> perry http://puu.sh/jejtp/d36efd8835.jpg
  12. Jul 27 18:26:29 <Tischel> its actually functional
  13. Jul 27 18:26:32 * movexig (~movexig@gamesurge-76081373.tbcn.telia.com) has joined
  14. Jul 27 18:26:36 <Perry> aight sweet
  15. Jul 27 18:26:45 <Perry> what's the bar
  16. Jul 27 18:26:45 <Tischel> has states for respawning, disconnected, loading and abandoned
  17. Jul 27 18:26:49 <Tischel> team resources
  18. Jul 27 18:26:55 <Noya> Aszra it is there, under Community
  19. Jul 27 18:26:57 <Tischel> a thing from my game
  20. Jul 27 18:27:04 <Perry> ah
  21. Jul 27 18:27:07 <Tischel> each time you die you use resources to respawn
  22. Jul 27 18:27:19 <Tischel> you gotta wipe the resources of the other team to REALLY kill them
  23. Jul 27 18:27:19 <DR-18> the other team that even the very simple rules of the skeleton
  24. Jul 27 18:27:28 <Perry> was already thinking 'csgo doesn't show the other team's money right?'
  25. Jul 27 18:27:29 <Tischel> if you plant the bomb and it explode,s it takes out all the remaining resources
  26. Jul 27 18:27:31 <Noya> I believe a simple search woulda gave you results to the forum?
  27. Jul 27 18:27:40 <Tischel> my game is not csgo
  28. Jul 27 18:27:44 <Tischel> it just has a bomb
  29. Jul 27 18:27:45 <Tischel> and weapons
  30. Jul 27 18:27:49 <Perry> well yeah
  31. Jul 27 18:27:55 <Perry> loosely based on
  32. Jul 27 18:27:57 <Aszra> I've searched a lot of stuff, it only turns up irrelevant dev.dota2.com and playdota threads
  33. Jul 27 18:28:00 <Noya> yeah "Dota Modding Tutorial" or just "dota modding"
  34. Jul 27 18:28:07 <Aszra> mkay
  35. Jul 27 18:28:07 <Tischel> ye
  36. Jul 27 18:28:11 <Perry> look at this masterclass in polite requests I gave http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=175491&p=1255988#post1255988
  37. Jul 27 18:28:12 <Noya> what did you search for
  38. Jul 27 18:28:22 <hex6> Same hero mode is literally one line of code, "SetCustomGameForceHero("hero_name_here")
  39. Jul 27 18:28:22 <Perry> irony guy could learn from that
  40. Jul 27 18:28:23 <Aszra> i searched for specific stuff i guess
  41. Jul 27 18:28:34 <Noya> Perry this ones better http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=175348
  42. Jul 27 18:28:49 <hex6> would work well together with perrys hero selection
  43. Jul 27 18:28:55 <Perry> yes noya that would be an example of how not to do it
  44. Jul 27 18:28:57 <Aszra> maybe too specific
  45. Jul 27 18:29:08 <Perry> Aszra: what would?
  46. Jul 27 18:29:11 <Perry> oh
  47. Jul 27 18:29:13 <Perry> hex6: what would
  48. Jul 27 18:29:20 <hex6> same hero mode
  49. Jul 27 18:29:50 <whiskey> anyone here wanna test a mod?
  50. Jul 27 18:29:59 <Perry> what does that have to do with my custom hero selection? except that I require that to be set ofcourse
  51. Jul 27 18:30:13 <hex6> wut
  52. Jul 27 18:30:41 <hex6> meant that it would be really easy to do it with your hero selection
  53. Jul 27 18:30:54 <Perry> well I guess
  54. Jul 27 18:31:03 <Perry> though ideally I would do the hero selection at the team selection screen
  55. Jul 27 18:31:15 <hex6> true
  56. Jul 27 18:31:17 <Perry> and then just force the hero picked there
  57. Jul 27 18:31:33 <Toyoka> DOTYER.UA IS biLL BTW
  58. Jul 27 18:31:40 <Toyoka> wow rverse caps
  59. Jul 27 18:31:44 <Toyoka> wops
  60. Jul 27 18:31:44 <Tischel> really?
  61. Jul 27 18:31:47 <Toyoka> yep
  62. Jul 27 18:32:03 <Tischel> that should teach us the important lesson
  63. Jul 27 18:32:07 <Tischel> that you cant get to know someone in IRC
  64. Jul 27 18:32:09 <Tischel> Kappa
  65. Jul 27 18:32:16 <Perry> there is the other guy on the forums too starts with an M that is the Jorney guy
  66. Jul 27 18:32:22 <Toyoka> well he was being an ass o nIRC in the past
  67. Jul 27 18:32:38 <Tischel> oh the only times i saw him talk he was being somewhat helpful
  68. Jul 27 18:32:40 <idler2> Dota 2 (570) GC status: GCConnectionStatus_GC_GOING_DOWN
  69. Jul 27 18:32:41 <Tischel> in here
  70. Jul 27 18:33:10 <Toyoka> yea, before, he was ragging on DoctorGester
  71. Jul 27 18:33:21 <Toyoka> for no reason
  72. Jul 27 18:33:23 <Perry> that was a diff guy right
  73. Jul 27 18:33:25 <Toyoka> maybe too much vodka
  74. Jul 27 18:33:29 <DoctorGester> hello
  75. Jul 27 18:33:29 <Tischel> funny that it was arhwok that told him that in the forums
  76. Jul 27 18:33:30 <Tischel> LOL
  77. Jul 27 18:33:34 <Toyoka> oh wait
  78. Jul 27 18:33:36 <Toyoka> that was Jorney
  79. Jul 27 18:33:38 <Tischel> wasnt that the guy that raged at me the other day
  80. Jul 27 18:33:39 <Tischel> ?
  81. Jul 27 18:33:40 <Toyoka> nevermind :P
  82. Jul 27 18:33:43 <Perry> idk
  83. Jul 27 18:33:46 <Toyoka> yea
  84. Jul 27 18:33:47 <Toyoka> it was
  85. Jul 27 18:33:48 <Perry> raging russians
  86. Jul 27 18:33:50 <Perry> can't distinguish
  87. Jul 27 18:33:51 <Tischel> so ironic
  88. Jul 27 18:34:08 <idler2> Dota 2 (570) GC status: GCConnectionStatus_NO_SESSION_IN_LOGON_QUEUE
  89. Jul 27 18:34:13 <Aszra> What is Perry's custom hero selection?
  90. Jul 27 18:34:18 <Toyoka> we are all raging Russians
  91. Jul 27 18:34:33 <Noya> I knew he was Bill, he already made a couple of other 'volvo pls' posts
  92. Jul 27 18:34:54 <Perry> Aszra: it's some panorama stuff I made that overrides the regular hero selection and shows a completely custom one
  93. Jul 27 18:35:15 <Aszra> but what makes it especially suitable
  94. Jul 27 18:35:18 <Aszra> for a same hero mode?
  95. Jul 27 18:35:20 <Noya> but yeah that thread is something else
  96. Jul 27 18:35:33 <Noya> it doesn't
  97. Jul 27 18:35:38 <DoctorGester> Perry have you submitted it to github or smth
  98. Jul 27 18:35:38 <Noya> same hero mode = 1 setting in lua
  99. Jul 27 18:35:38 <Aszra> just the fact it's in Lua I gues?
  100. Jul 27 18:35:48 <Perry> nah hex6 was just a bit confused
  101. Jul 27 18:35:51 <Perry> it's not really that useful
  102. Jul 27 18:35:56 <Aszra> The thing is though Noya ideally the next step is to have people vote for what hero ti is
  103. Jul 27 18:36:17 <Perry> I think you should do that in panorama in the picking screen
  104. Jul 27 18:36:24 <Noya> oh ok you want that
  105. Jul 27 18:36:56 <Noya> yeah you do that in the picking screen and then force it
  106. Jul 27 18:36:57 <Aszra> It's not a big deal, it just makes more sense to me than 'host chooses', when most people play via the matchfinder and not via lobby selection (where a lobby description may be set)
  107. Jul 27 18:36:59 <Perry> DoctorGester, https://github.com/Perryvw/CustomHeroSelection
  108. Jul 27 18:37:10 <Noya> GameMode:SetCustomGameForceHero("npc_dota_hero_dragon_knight") <
  109. Jul 27 18:37:11 <DoctorGester> nice la
  110. Jul 27 18:37:48 <Noya> whats D2E
  111. Jul 27 18:38:03 <Perry> abbreviation for my gamemode
  112. Jul 27 18:38:04 <Aszra> but I will start with host chooses
  113. Jul 27 18:38:08 <DoctorGester> wtf perry where is hero name validation
  114. Jul 27 18:38:14 <Perry> nowhere
  115. Jul 27 18:38:18 <Aszra> ok thanks I will check out barebones
  116. Jul 27 18:38:20 <Perry> it's a rough version
  117. Jul 27 18:38:28 <idler2> New Dota 2 (570) GC item schema (version: 397408EA): http://cdn.dota2.com/apps/570/scripts/items/items_game.4e8de4f14508f2e98fc87433283c041b5e849547.txt
  118. Jul 27 18:38:29 <idler2> New Dota 2 (570) GC client session (version: 974)
  119. Jul 27 18:38:29 <idler2> Dota 2 (570) GC Active Events: k_EIngameEvent_TI5
  120. Jul 27 18:38:29 <idler2> Dota 2 (570) Top customs: Dota 2 Horde Mode, Overthrow, Petri Reborn Alpha, Power Multiplier x20, Pudge Wars, Green TD Reborn, Together We Stand ! (64 bit more stable) 无尽试炼, Dota IMBA, Dota Strikers, Dota Run
  121. Jul 27 18:38:43 <Perry> but I don't need all of this in my mod so I just put this on github before specialising my UI to my own gamemode
  122. Jul 27 18:38:49 <Noya> dahell is that chinese mod
  123. Jul 27 18:39:07 <Perry> I could say something really racist but I won't
  124. Jul 27 18:39:07 <Aszra> Together We Stand is a top custom? I didn't know that
  125. Jul 27 18:39:19 <Aszra> Noya it's a crazy pve map
  126. Jul 27 18:39:31 <Noya> and by crazy you mean senseless
  127. Jul 27 18:39:33 <Perry> Noya: warchasers but better ;)
  128. Jul 27 18:39:39 <Aszra> You can buy skills using skill points and you have to find the combination OP enough to beat the mobs
  129. Jul 27 18:39:46 <Aszra> I thought it was nice, but navigating the skill store is a nightmare
  130. Jul 27 18:40:00 <Noya> is it just using spell shop
  131. Jul 27 18:40:00 <Noya> or panorama
  132. Jul 27 18:40:14 <Aszra> it's using the same thing that I've seen in other unaffiliated maps
  133. Jul 27 18:40:20 <Aszra> that haven't been updated since Reborn
  134. Jul 27 18:40:26 <DoctorGester> the shop button on the left
  135. Jul 27 18:40:32 <Noya> yeah its spell shop
  136. Jul 27 18:40:34 <DoctorGester> that shit is gonna broke soon
  137. Jul 27 18:40:39 <Noya> http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/445077053391690671/A9A0A1CE8254C5B735AD7C5740C450791163395E/
  138. Jul 27 18:40:45 <Noya> that wont lag?
  139. Jul 27 18:40:58 <Aszra> THAT won't but later waves will
  140. Jul 27 18:41:06 <Aszra> In fact I had a wave where everyone but host got kicked out over and over
  141. Jul 27 18:41:11 <Aszra> might be fixed by now, dunno
  142. Jul 27 18:41:30 <Noya> people really seem to like the whole survival-pve
  143. Jul 27 18:41:35 <Noya> with just default heroes and items
  144. Jul 27 18:41:47 <Aszra> I think they would like custom heroes too
  145. Jul 27 18:41:59 <Noya> I saw Baumi play horde mode
  146. Jul 27 18:41:59 <func_door> I think the best route is semi-custom heroes, personally
  147. Jul 27 18:42:03 <Aszra> but custom heroes are hard to make
  148. Jul 27 18:42:11 <Aszra> well, the top map right now uses default heroes with changes
  149. Jul 27 18:42:13 <DoctorGester> http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=175023 lmao this thread
  150. Jul 27 18:42:14 <Aszra> but, say, Warchasers
  151. Jul 27 18:42:17 <Noya> it's literally 1 team dota vs dumb xD
  152. Jul 27 18:42:19 <Aszra> Is the creator of Warchasers in here?
  153. Jul 27 18:42:19 <Noya> dumb creeps*
  154. Jul 27 18:42:20 <DoctorGester> not hard to make, rather time-consuming
  155. Jul 27 18:42:21 <func_door> default heroes with chasers is the best way to go
  156. Jul 27 18:42:25 <func_door> err changes lol
  157. Jul 27 18:42:26 <Infekma> @noya yeah it is, and it's impossible to win
  158. Jul 27 18:42:36 <SQL> Aszra, Noya is the creator
  159. Jul 27 18:42:36 <Infekma> @noya me and friend played it with WTF mode on and we took 50m to beat the game
  160. Jul 27 18:42:46 <Noya> lol
  161. Jul 27 18:43:07 <Aszra> OK Noya, Warchasers has kind of
  162. Jul 27 18:43:08 <Noya> can't you like get leshrac and finish it in 1 minute
  163. Jul 27 18:43:10 <Aszra> weird balance
  164. Jul 27 18:43:19 <Infekma> @noya probably but we were still trying to give the game a chance
  165. Jul 27 18:43:20 <Infekma> xD
  166. Jul 27 18:43:32 <SQL> you don't need the @, this is no twitter
  167. Jul 27 18:43:37 <Aszra> There is a hero in Warchasers that can just go literally invulnerable for a period of time
  168. Jul 27 18:43:38 <Perry> lmao Aszra: you've been talking with the creator of warchasers the entire time (Noya)
  169. Jul 27 18:43:43 <Aszra> some clients do it automatically
  170. Jul 27 18:43:45 <DoctorGester> What are you talking about +SQL
  171. Jul 27 18:43:50 <Noya> Warchasers balance is fucked up, because its a port
  172. Jul 27 18:43:52 <SQL> neither is it google plus
  173. Jul 27 18:43:56 <Infekma> @sql @why @are @you @against @@
  174. Jul 27 18:44:01 <Noya> invulnerable for 45 seconds is totally balanced
  175. Jul 27 18:44:01 <Perry> ?? @name
  176. Jul 27 18:44:02 <Renol> @name: This isn't twitter, the @ is not needed.
  177. Jul 27 18:44:06 <Noya> ask Blizzard
  178. Jul 27 18:44:08 <Perry> ?? +name
  179. Jul 27 18:44:09 <Renol> +name: This isn't google+, the + is not needed.
  180. Jul 27 18:44:19 <Noya> but really that skill is just crap
  181. Jul 27 18:44:27 <Noya> if you play it in a party
  182. Jul 27 18:44:31 <Noya> mobs will just ignore you, big deal
  183. Jul 27 18:44:43 <Aszra> Yeah Noya, I'm just using Warchasers as an illustration of why default with small/medium changes is more popular right now than fully custom heroes
  184. Jul 27 18:44:47 <Noya> plus the last boss goes through MI so good luck soloing it :D
  185. Jul 27 18:44:49 <Aszra> It's just because it's easier
  186. Jul 27 18:44:57 <DoctorGester> I remember nearly completing warchasers solo
  187. Jul 27 18:45:02 <DoctorGester> With that invulnerable shit
  188. Jul 27 18:45:03 <Aszra> and those maps are what exist right now
  189. Jul 27 18:45:04 <DR-18> those maps are all huge and filled with awesome
  190. Jul 27 18:45:25 <SQL> +markov Botto
  191. Jul 27 18:45:27 <Infekma> guys plz
  192. Jul 27 18:45:29 <SQL> plz
  193. Jul 27 18:45:30 <Aszra> I think ultimately people will like fully custom more
  194. Jul 27 18:45:32 <Infekma> let's acknowledge horde mode for what it is
  195. Jul 27 18:45:34 <Infekma> it's a masterpiece
  196. Jul 27 18:45:47 <Aszra> Also, in Horde Mode, there are several abilities that are just entirely irrelevant to the mode
  197. Jul 27 18:45:52 <Noya> I'm not really saying "my game mode is better"
  198. Jul 27 18:46:05 <Noya> I'm just saying people like the straight/dumb stuff more
  199. Jul 27 18:46:13 <Aszra> Horde Mode is not that dumb
  200. Jul 27 18:46:19 <Infekma> thats cause 90% of dota2 community are genuinly noobs
  201. Jul 27 18:46:20 <Noya> just old news
  202. Jul 27 18:46:21 <Infekma> hard stuff isn't fun
  203. Jul 27 18:46:21 <Infekma> ;P
  204. Jul 27 18:46:32 <Aszra> Horde Mode is super hard, did you even play it?
  205. Jul 27 18:46:40 <tet> the genuine noob
  206. Jul 27 18:46:42 <Aszra> and it's the #1 map
  207. Jul 27 18:46:52 <Noya> "hard" as in depth
  208. Jul 27 18:46:54 <BMD> it's hard? are you serious?
  209. Jul 27 18:46:58 <Noya> not hard as in "you cant fucking win this game"
  210. Jul 27 18:46:58 <Perry> better than the wannabe noob
  211. Jul 27 18:47:02 <BMD> are we going to have this discussion again
  212. Jul 27 18:47:05 <Aszra> Yes it's hard, there were a few OP heroes like CM and Drow
  213. Jul 27 18:47:06 <Noya> no please
  214. Jul 27 18:47:06 <tet> yes
  215. Jul 27 18:47:08 <Infekma> yes
  216. Jul 27 18:47:10 <Aszra> but those are nerfed now
  217. Jul 27 18:47:14 <BMD> you can't be serious
  218. Jul 27 18:47:16 <tet> i need to review the debate
  219. Jul 27 18:47:19 <Infekma> guys, BM_D is in the building
  220. Jul 27 18:47:20 <Infekma> haha
  221. Jul 27 18:47:54 <Aszra> I think people like stuff that stays close to dota because dota is really good, and staying close to dota lets you use a lot of what makes dota good
  222. Jul 27 18:48:05 <BMD> no, people like it because they don't have to learn shit
  223. Jul 27 18:48:09 <Aszra> With custom you have to try to be that good yourself
  224. Jul 27 18:48:11 <func_door> staying close to dota means they don't have to read as much
  225. Jul 27 18:48:13 <BMD> so a game gets to both have depth and require nothing form them
  226. Jul 27 18:48:17 <BMD> that's all
  227. Jul 27 18:48:22 <Aszra> well I don't agree
  228. Jul 27 18:48:25 <BMD> then your'
  229. Jul 27 18:48:27 * ColdAmphibian has quit (Ping timeout)
  230. Jul 27 18:48:28 <BMD> an idiot
  231. Jul 27 18:48:35 <Perry> lol
  232. Jul 27 18:48:46 <Noya> that scalated quickly
  233. Jul 27 18:48:49 <BMD> any game mode that's just dota + changes is going to be messed up at its core
  234. Jul 27 18:48:57 <Perry> got out of han
  235. Jul 27 18:48:59 <BMD> because dota is a game balanced for a very very specific game mode and a very very specific map
  236. Jul 27 18:49:19 * SpiderNight has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
  237. Jul 27 18:49:32 <BMD> people don't like change, and they don't like things that are unfamiliar
  238. Jul 27 18:49:33 <DoctorGester> I got it
  239. Jul 27 18:49:35 <Aszra> But what are the alternatives that we have seen so far?
  240. Jul 27 18:49:40 <DoctorGester> he is cosplaying House MD
  241. Jul 27 18:49:44 <Aszra> Games that are easily as messed up
  242. Jul 27 18:49:44 <Infekma> somebody should rip dota2 horde mode and call it dota2 horde mode(inverted) where you play as dire vs radiant
  243. Jul 27 18:49:48 <Infekma> and see how popular it gets
  244. Jul 27 18:49:48 <BMD> so playing mods in Dota that are based on Dota is going to be simplest by far for people
  245. Jul 27 18:49:54 <BMD> becasue you dont' need to learn anything
  246. Jul 27 18:49:56 <BMD> at all
  247. Jul 27 18:50:03 <DoctorGester> by calling people idiots
  248. Jul 27 18:50:03 <BMD> peopel find dota strikers hard to learn
  249. Jul 27 18:50:06 <Toyoka> BMD get off your high horse
  250. Jul 27 18:50:08 <BMD> adn it's 1 ability per hero basically
  251. Jul 27 18:50:23 <Aszra> You do need to learn things though, it's not like you can go into Horde Mode like it's a dota match and expect to win
  252. Jul 27 18:50:31 <Infekma> but they do
  253. Jul 27 18:50:32 <Noya> (You can't win)
  254. Jul 27 18:50:39 <Infekma> ^
  255. Jul 27 18:50:47 <Aszra> I've beaten the hard mode twice but everything we used got nerfed now
  256. Jul 27 18:51:02 <Aszra> so I can't say whether it's still possible
  257. Jul 27 18:51:40 <Infekma> wow what people find dota strikers hard to learn? rofl
  258. Jul 27 18:51:47 <BMD> custom game mode players
  259. Jul 27 18:51:56 <BMD> basically the worst of the worst
  260. Jul 27 18:51:58 <Aszra> You need to stop blaming the users
  261. Jul 27 18:52:12 <Aszra> git gud, basically
  262. Jul 27 18:52:22 <SQL> oh, secret game starting in some 8 minutes?
  263. Jul 27 18:52:42 <Noya> it's not about blaming really
  264. Jul 27 18:52:50 <Noya> it's about how things are/what people wants
  265. Jul 27 18:52:56 <Infekma> aszra, if you disregard everything BMD's said, how can you justify dota2 horde's mode popularity?
  266. Jul 27 18:53:01 <Noya> as I said, they like simple/dumb
  267. Jul 27 18:53:05 <BMD> yeah, i'm not blaming people for wanting something familiar
  268. Jul 27 18:53:07 <BMD> i do it too
  269. Jul 27 18:53:12 <Aszra> I honestly don't know why it's AS popular as it is, it rose surprisingly sharply
  270. Jul 27 18:53:22 <Aszra> but I think a couple of factors are
  271. Jul 27 18:53:24 <BMD> if i jump into some chinese/russian game with only a semblance of english or understanding
  272. Jul 27 18:53:28 <BMD> i'm going to get frustrated
  273. Jul 27 18:53:33 <Aszra> that it's hard, people want to play the map until they beat it, and they'll be playing it a long time
  274. Jul 27 18:53:35 <BMD> efven if the game at its core actually is good
  275. Jul 27 18:53:54 <Aszra> yes, a factor is also that it's familiar, you get your familiar feeling of movement and last hitting and using skills
  276. Jul 27 18:54:01 <SQL> the thing is - you usually learn russian before the russians learn english :p
  277. Jul 27 18:54:02 <Noya> really need to redefine your concept of hard, but allright
  278. Jul 27 18:54:16 <BMD> i'm not talking about that for familiarity
  279. Jul 27 18:54:26 <BMD> i'm talking about reuising stuff from dota because it's extremely familiar
  280. Jul 27 18:54:40 <BMD> so you don't stare at a wall of 20-40 heroes and have no idea what you can pick that's any good
  281. Jul 27 18:54:46 <BMD> which is what new people to enfos or even LiA feel
  282. Jul 27 18:54:52 <Aszra> But you can't know what hero is good in horde mode because of all the changes
  283. Jul 27 18:54:56 <BMD> meanwhile if you know dota well you don't have that
  284. Jul 27 18:54:58 <Aszra> and you need to know what you're up against anyway
  285. Jul 27 18:54:59 <BMD> but you still have the depth of dota
  286. Jul 27 18:55:08 <Aszra> I think maybe we should be doing this the other way around
  287. Jul 27 18:55:14 <BMD> but that's not the issue, the issue is that you have an increidbly complex game
  288. Jul 27 18:55:15 <Aszra> Tell me what map you feel should be more popular than Horde Mode
  289. Jul 27 18:55:19 <Aszra> and I'll tell you why I like it less
  290. Jul 27 18:55:20 <BMD> that's already very familiar
  291. Jul 27 18:55:26 <BMD> i'm not saying it shouldn't be popular
  292. Jul 27 18:55:42 <BMD> i'm just saying that game modes that borrow from dota in fact will be more popular
  293. Jul 27 18:55:43 * vasu (kiwiirc@gamesurge-beb6cc7c.elisa-mobile.fi) has joined
  294. Jul 27 18:55:45 <BMD> than others that don't
  295. Jul 27 18:55:50 * Moop (~Moop@f7aa7f1.8f99366b.a981b519.IP4) has joined
  296. Jul 27 18:55:56 <BMD> which is incredibly frustrating as working from dota as a base is extremely limiting
  297. Jul 27 18:55:57 <Aszra> I don't disagree, I just disagree on the mechanisms
  298. Jul 27 18:55:58 <Rabscuttle> Engines don't have requirements, games have requirements
  299. Jul 27 18:56:11 <Infekma> +quote bmd
  300. Jul 27 18:56:11 <Rabscuttle> Your quote has been added, its index is 443.
  301. Jul 27 18:56:15 <Toyoka> for PvE game, if you make a custom hero pick screen, you could have a firt-timer guide reocmmending easy heroes or something
  302. Jul 27 18:56:17 <Infekma> oops
  303. Jul 27 18:56:23 <Toyoka> first*
  304. Jul 27 18:56:24 <Noya> +quote delete 443
  305. Jul 27 18:56:35 <Toyoka> rofl
  306. Jul 27 18:56:48 <Infekma> ty :p
  307. Jul 27 18:56:59 <Aszra> Toyoka and make those heroes actually good, and cool
  308. Jul 27 18:57:03 <Toyoka> yes
  309. Jul 27 18:57:04 <SQL> Infekma u need to rwite that youself
  310. Jul 27 18:57:07 <Toyoka> and then on top of that
  311. Jul 27 18:57:09 <SQL> since you added the quote
  312. Jul 27 18:57:12 <Infekma> +quote delete 443
  313. Jul 27 18:57:12 <Rabscuttle> Deleted this precious quote: bmd
  314. Jul 27 18:57:14 <Toyoka> make the more "in-depth" heroes fun as well
  315. Jul 27 18:57:50 <Toyoka> but not as easy to learn or grasp (not on purpose, but by way of their mechanics)
  316. Jul 27 18:58:04 <Noya> ugh
  317. Jul 27 18:58:05 <Infekma> aszra, for me personally I could close my eyes and point at a random game mode and it would be better then dota2 horde moe, thats my personal opinion
  318. Jul 27 18:58:05 <Noya> no
  319. Jul 27 18:58:07 <Noya> for example
  320. Jul 27 18:58:09 <Noya> Check Enfos
  321. Jul 27 18:58:12 <Noya> has custom heroes
  322. Jul 27 18:58:16 <Aszra> Infekma name one so we cn talk about it
  323. Jul 27 18:58:23 <Noya> has decent waves not copied from holdout 1-1
  324. Jul 27 18:58:26 <Infekma> ok let me just close my eyes
  325. Jul 27 18:58:26 <BMD> i'm not saying that Infekma
  326. Jul 27 18:58:33 <BMD> i don't even think horde mode is bad
  327. Jul 27 18:58:51 <Noya> me neither, its cool and quick to jump into
  328. Jul 27 18:58:52 <BMD> just disappointed that you can get so far for free by doing dota + changes
  329. Jul 27 18:58:56 <Aszra> How does Enfos have decent waves? they're all just slow-moving dumb mobs with no abilities, except a few passives later on
  330. Jul 27 18:59:12 <Aszra> BMD, I think you also need to consider, dota + changes is easier to make, so it will come out sooner
  331. Jul 27 18:59:18 <BMD> it's not about that
  332. Jul 27 18:59:20 <BMD> it really isn't
  333. Jul 27 18:59:21 <Aszra> The good maps that aren't dota + changes are still coming
  334. Jul 27 18:59:31 <Noya> Amuse
  335. Jul 27 18:59:40 <Noya> I made custom stats in dotacraft with stacks if you want em
  336. Jul 27 18:59:42 <Infekma> +help
  337. Jul 27 18:59:50 <Noya> less heavy than bitfields
  338. Jul 27 19:00:09 <Noya> =memo Amuse https://github.com/MNoya/DotaCraft/blob/master/game/dota_addons/dotacraft/scripts/vscripts/stats.lua
  339. Jul 27 19:00:10 <Renol> Memo Nr. 1276 created.
  340. Jul 27 19:00:58 * Moop has quit (Quit)
  341. Jul 27 19:01:01 <Aszra> I don't deny it's a factor that modes like Overthrow successfully borrow from DotA 2's familiarity
  342. Jul 27 19:01:08 <Aszra> but it also borrows from DotA 2's depth
  343. Jul 27 19:01:18 <Aszra> Is there a map as deep as Overthrow, but less familiar?
  344. Jul 27 19:01:25 <Noya> no
  345. Jul 27 19:01:26 <Infekma> you'd be surprised how many people don't like overthrow because they get destroyed
  346. Jul 27 19:01:26 <BMD> that's my whole argument
  347. Jul 27 19:01:33 <BMD> you're taking dota's familiarity AND depth
  348. Jul 27 19:01:37 <Noya> you wont get a game more indepth than dota
  349. Jul 27 19:01:38 <Noya> AND
  350. Jul 27 19:01:39 <Noya> if you make it
  351. Jul 27 19:01:43 <BMD> and get to work from that instead of having to get people to learn a whole new game
  352. Jul 27 19:01:43 <Noya> like
  353. Jul 27 19:01:45 <Noya> WC3
  354. Jul 27 19:01:47 <Noya> it wont be more popular
  355. Jul 27 19:01:48 <BMD> with even 10% the depth of dota
  356. Jul 27 19:01:50 <Noya> because people have to fucking learn it
  357. Jul 27 19:01:53 <Aszra> Yeah but you're also saying that a map with dota's depth but no familiarity wouldn't succeed
  358. Jul 27 19:02:07 <Aszra> right?
  359. Jul 27 19:02:15 <BMD> what?
  360. Jul 27 19:02:18 <Aszra> because people would find it too hard to learn
  361. Jul 27 19:02:24 <BMD> WHAT
  362. Jul 27 19:02:31 <Toyoka> it's also harder to make use of PvP in game modes without having people feel like it's too easy or too hard too
  363. Jul 27 19:02:32 <DoctorGester> here it goes
  364. Jul 27 19:02:38 <Infekma> i think bmd is throwing words at a wall
  365. Jul 27 19:02:44 <BMD> WHAT
  366. Jul 27 19:02:47 <BMD> jesus
  367. Jul 27 19:02:47 <Rabscuttle> Oh jesus christ, giff me tango!
  368. Jul 27 19:02:48 <Toyoka> PvE is a bit easier to balance and such
  369. Jul 27 19:02:51 <Infekma> D=
  370. Jul 27 19:02:53 <func_door> no its not
  371. Jul 27 19:03:02 <Toyoka> yes it mosty definitely is
  372. Jul 27 19:03:03 <func_door> its much harder to make a good balanced pve game than it is pvp
  373. Jul 27 19:03:04 <BMD> pve is much easier to balance
  374. Jul 27 19:03:05 <BMD> no question
  375. Jul 27 19:03:14 <BMD> only way to easily balance a pvp game is if it's all the same
  376. Jul 27 19:03:21 <Toyoka> ^
  377. Jul 27 19:03:22 <BMD> like chess or something
  378. Jul 27 19:03:35 <BMD> the second you introduce non-deterministic behavior or asymmetrics
  379. Jul 27 19:03:41 <Toyoka> if you want to make it good, you're essentially recreating dota
  380. Jul 27 19:03:47 <BMD> and your game mode can have like 5 abilities and be hard as hell to balance
  381. Jul 27 19:04:14 <BMD> pve is whatever, most of the time on pve is people just sussing out what's good or best or easiest
  382. Jul 27 19:04:23 <BMD> or figuring out how to cheese things if you've left gaps
  383. Jul 27 19:04:26 <func_door> well difficulty of balance notwithstanding, I think its more difficult to create engaging pve than pvp
  384. Jul 27 19:04:37 <Corgan> overthrow isn't a balanced game, because it uses dota mechanics
  385. Jul 27 19:04:39 <Corgan> on a new map
  386. Jul 27 19:04:44 <Corgan> it's the same thing with grand magus
  387. Jul 27 19:04:54 <Aszra> There are games like Grand Magus, Reflex, Warlock etc.
  388. Jul 27 19:05:06 <Aszra> which I suppose counts as having all the same
  389. Jul 27 19:05:11 <Aszra> but they're still decent maps
  390. Jul 27 19:05:13 <Corgan> FFA games, etc, they aren't "balanced" when you use the dota spells
  391. Jul 27 19:05:14 <BMD> huh?
  392. Jul 27 19:05:37 <BMD> Corgan, i agree with you
  393. Jul 27 19:05:49 <BMD> and why Aszra do you read things i don't say
  394. Jul 27 19:05:51 <Corgan> and if you, like I did, try to rebalance them
  395. Jul 27 19:05:52 <BMD> every time soemhow
  396. Jul 27 19:05:53 <Aszra> Grand Magus is balanced though, not every skill is as good
  397. Jul 27 19:06:04 <Corgan> people will, and did, complain because it's unfamiliar
  398. Jul 27 19:06:05 <Aszra> but that's not required for Grand Magus's balance
  399. Jul 27 19:06:11 <Aszra> it's not required for real dota's balance either
  400. Jul 27 19:06:11 <BMD> i didn't say that doing a game mode with the same or similar sides is bad
  401. Jul 27 19:06:19 <BMD> just that it's easier to balance
  402. Jul 27 19:06:23 * DarkMio (~shittykot@DarkMio.user.gamesurge) has joined
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