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> "evopsych junk"

MetroAndroid
Jan 24th, 2017
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  1. noratat [-1] 34 points 8 months ago*
  2.  
  3. I mean, the stereotypical 70-something cents thing is false, and in terms of the actual numbers if you account for everything you can get the illusion of parity...
  4.  
  5. But to then just assume that means there's no discrimination and that that magically means everything is fine is ridiculous.
  6.  
  7. There's plenty of forms of discrimination in the workplace - FFS I work in the tech industry, and you wouldn't believe (okay, this sub would) how many people try to pretend the reason it's male dominated is because "women don't like computers" or similar bullshit, even though historically the gap was much smaller and even it's substantially smaller in countries and cultures like India that don't associate so much gendered baggage with tech.
  8.  
  9. Case in point, I saw this in r/recruitinghell right after posting this.
  10. http://i.imgur.com/fabi3AR.jpg
  11.  
  12. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  13.  
  14. MetroAndroid -1 points 8 months ago*
  15.  
  16. > "I mean, the stereotypical 70-something cents thing is false, and in terms of the actual numbers if you account for everything you can get the illusion of parity... But to then just assume that means there's no discrimination and that that magically means everything is fine is ridiculous."
  17.  
  18. You're right about that notoriously inaccurate, yet still propagated, pay gap statistic which compares all women to all men regardless of what jobs they have. Only in the most totalitarian of utopias could you have an exact ratio of men and women working the same jobs.
  19.  
  20. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FrZQavx0N8 [2081: Everyone Will Finally Be Equal]
  21. https://www.shrm.org/Advocacy/Issues/CivilRights/Documents/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20Final%20Report.pdf
  22.  
  23. A society absolutely devoid of discrimination as a concept will never exist. Concepts can't be destroyed, and we don't have absolute control over people's thoughts. If we could, we'd solve crime by teaching thieves not to steal.
  24.  
  25. And it's not that "women don't like computers", it's that their biology rewards pro-social behavior (it wouldn't really make sense for the female body not to have evolved hormones which reward pro-social behavior as it's beneficial to child-rearing). Male biology is more likely to reinforce long hours working either alone or with relatively few people. Neither of these is inherently "good" or "bad" (it can very easily be argued that the female biological inclination is superior due to it being more altruistic), but up until (relatively) very recently these inclinations have merely been necessary. This doesn't mean that every woman will, or even should, go down a more pro-social job path, but just that when you look at hundreds of millions of people, it's unsurprising to find a bias towards it.
  26.  
  27. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2015/04/14/study-finds-surprisingly-that-women-are-favored-for-jobs-in-stem/
  28. http://www.pnas.org/content/112/17/5360.abstract
  29.  
  30. > "The underrepresentation of women in academic science is typically attributed, both in scientific literature and in the media, to sexist hiring. Here we report five hiring experiments in which faculty evaluated hypothetical female and male applicants, using systematically varied profiles disguising identical scholarship, for assistant professorships in biology, engineering, economics, and psychology. Contrary to prevailing assumptions, men and women faculty members from all four fields preferred female applicants 2:1 over identically qualified males with matching lifestyles (single, married, divorced), with the exception of male economists, who showed no gender preference. Comparing different lifestyles revealed that women preferred divorced mothers to married fathers and that men preferred mothers who took parental leaves to mothers who did not. Our findings, supported by real-world academic hiring data, suggest advantages for women launching academic science careers."
  31.  
  32. This study suggests that there is a 2:1 bias towards hiring women over men by both male and female faculty in the fields of biology, engineering, economics, and psychology.
  33.  
  34. > "Case in point, I saw this in r/recruitinghell right after posting this."
  35.  
  36. Anecdotal evidence. That person's silly (and demeaning/unprofessional) comment is in no way representative of anyone other than himself. Though I feel I should point out, that despite the inappropriate nature of the original line, he did go on to give her two job offerings.
  37.  
  38. It's illegal, non-profitable, and nonsensical to pay women less. It's easy and profitable to win lawsuits based on unequal wages, and yet they are rare. *Even if an employer has an agenda against women*, it would be much easier and more profitable to just pay every employee what they've earned.
  39.  
  40. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  41.  
  42. noratat [-1] 5 points 8 months ago*
  43.  
  44. > "And it's not that "women don't like computers", it's that their biology rewards pro-social behavior (it wouldn't really make sense for the female body not to have evolved hormones which reward pro-social behavior as it's beneficial to child-rearing). Male biology is more likely to reinforce long hours working either alone or with relatively few people. Neither of these is inherently "good" or "bad" (it can very easily be argued that the female biological inclination is superior due to it being more altruistic), but up until (relatively) very recently these inclinations have merely been necessary."
  45.  
  46. This nonsensical post-hoc rationalization you pulled out of your ass does nothing to explain why the ratio is dramatically smaller in other countries or the fact that it used to be considerably more equal. Armchair evopsych junk like this is isn't evidence or explanation, it's just confirmation bias dressed up as "science".
  47.  
  48. Also, you seem to be under some kind of illusion that social communication isn't as important in the tech field.
  49.  
  50. > "This study suggests that there is a 2:1 bias towards hiring women over men by both male and female faculty in the fields of biology, engineering, economics, and psychology."
  51.  
  52. I was talking about the tech field, but my perception is that the bigger issue is social norms more so than hiring - not to mention post-hiring biases that exist as well, such as making it harder to get a promotion. Yes, some of those are due to behaviors on the part of women, but those behaviors are in turn the product of social norms, not necessarily any inherent biology.
  53.  
  54. > "Anecdotal evidence. That person's silly (and demeaning/unprofessional) comment is in no way representative of anyone other than himself. Though I feel I should point out, that despite the inappropriate nature of the original line, he did go on to give her two job offerings."
  55.  
  56. Except that I see stuff like that all the time. It's not rare, and it's not limited to hiring. You would never see a recruiter say something like that about a male candidate.
  57.  
  58. > "It's illegal, non-profitable, and nonsensical to pay women less. It's easy and profitable to win lawsuits based on unequal wages, and yet they are rare. Even if an employer has an agenda against women, it would be much easier and more profitable to just pay every employee what they've earned."
  59.  
  60. You've deliberately missed my entire point, which was that discrimination comes in many other forms than just directly unequal wages, which aren't common in part because they're much easier to test for and file lawsuits over.
  61.  
  62. If I sound hostile, it's because you're obviously here as an alt-right troll.
  63.  
  64. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  65.  
  66. Edit:
  67.  
  68. > "This nonsensical post-hoc rationalization you pulled out of your ass does nothing to explain why the ratio is dramatically smaller in other countries or the fact that it used to be considerably more equal. Armchair evopsych junk like this is isn't evidence or explanation, it's just confirmation bias dressed up as "science"."
  69.  
  70. There are a whole multitude of reasons why our nation could be different compared to others. Perhaps it's because our nation has much more religious and conservative values than most other modern nations? As for why it used to be more equal, I'd like to see any info/links specifically on this subject. According to this, male testosterone is high when men are single yet over time, the same men produce significantly lower amounts of testosterone based on whether they become fathers and how actively they are involved with their kids. So before even addressing any female hormones, there is a direct link between less testosterone and improved pro-social interaction. Which gender has less testosterone?
  71.  
  72. > "Also, you seem to be under some kind of illusion that social communication isn't as important in the tech field."
  73.  
  74. It's not that social communication isn't important in STEM/tech fields, it's that in other fields, you have direct interaction with many people constantly, are helping them in some meaningful way, and the outcome of the interaction is human-based, whereas in STEM the fruit of your labors is more materialistic or in the creation of some thing. In STEM fields, workers will spend a lot more time working in relative isolation, which female biology does not reward, so when you look at 300 million people, that minute initial difference shows up (chaos theory, incredibly small initial differences can have huge differences in outcome).
  75.  
  76. > "You've deliberately missed my entire point, which was that discrimination comes in many other forms than just directly unequal wages, which aren't common in part because they're much easier to test for and file lawsuits over."
  77.  
  78. What do you propose we do? Shame the people who make inappropriate comments and put them out of a job? Because less people working is a good thing? Or put them in jail, and we pay for them to live year-round?
  79.  
  80. > "You would never see a recruiter say something like that about a male candidate."
  81.  
  82. Yeah, they wouldn't baby the men and give them free jobs.
  83.  
  84. > "If I sound hostile, it's because you're obviously here as an alt-right troll."
  85.  
  86. If it makes you feel better, you can call me that. I actually decided to put your assertion to the test and took a political compass test, and it seems as if I'm a radical leftist.
  87.  
  88. https://www.politicalcompass.org/yourpoliticalcompass?ec=-5.88&soc=-6.56
  89.  
  90. > "evopsych junk"
  91.  
  92. Gad Saad interview (21:05) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jq1utGg0PUY#t=21m5s
  93. Jerry Coyne interview (3:00) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAH2qOFHggE#t=3m
  94. Feminist tries to be a man https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFZFBOY9ugI
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