fucking frog boy

Fem vs Corv
Samus vs Sabretooth

R1
I'm skipping the intro posts because I'm well familiar with all these characters by now.

R2
- Samus shoots Sabre. Standard hits do large damage and she has charges along with esoterics. Sabretooth tanks damage often and Samus is a fast shooter anyways. She's also strong in melee.
- Sabretooth can fight through lethal wounds and has basically unlimited stamina. Sabretooth has taken energy blasts well comparable to or above Samus' shots. Sabretooth can flex out of being frozen and regens from heat. Sabretooth also dodges and his claws uncontestably cut through Samus.

R3
- Sabretooth has no means of getting into range while also dodging blasts, and if he does Samus can just retreat or punch him away. His esoteric scans also frequently feature him being injured anyways. Sabretooth consistently scales to slow people and has never dismembered/decapitated someone as fast as Samus.
- Samus often approaches downed enemies, allowing Sabretooth to play possum. Sabre can damage Samus' suit with strikes. Corv has a heated moment about speed. Sabretooth has clawed fast people.

R4
- Sabretooth is KOd or heavily injured in several of the energy blast scans. Samus doesn't inspect bodies. Sabretooth's pill makes him less skilled, exacerbating his Wolverine antifeats. Sabretooth has bad scaling.
- Sabretooth takes big explosions large. Heated speed etc. Wolverine has cut many arrows and darts in half. Sabretooth scales.

Samus' wincon is shooting Sabretooth a whole bunch. Sabre's wincon is getting into melee and mauling her.

Sabretooth's ability to take damage to a limit seems very inconsistent. Some of these scans are "Samus would KO him in one shot" and others are "OOT bait". I'm going to be using "dazed by a change of scenery" as my mental picture of Sabretooth. I'll note that if Sabretooth can regen from more than this (coming back from being near-skeletonized), then he just stomps and Samus has no means of putting him down.

Fem's main contention with Sabretooth getting into range was that Sabretooth is slow, has no travel speed, and that Samus can just punt him away once he's in range regardless (or retreat further). I'm not sure about the viability of punching Sabretooth away. Not in that it couldn't be done, but that doing it several times opens her up to the chances of being hit. It's also a large punch, not really a jab. I do buy that she can outspeed Sabretooth in the Morph Ball. It is visually fast, one might say.

Ultimately, I think this fight is similar to Batman vs Samus last round. On a Platonic level. Samus has to keep an opponent at bay who will eat her in melee. In Batman vs Samus, I judged that Batman won due to a combination of having ranged hits (the Batarangs) and Fem not "arguing grappling or playing the antifeats game". Both of these were done this round.

I will say that I don't buy that Samus can effectively grapple Sabretooth. If she does grab his hand (which is within her speed), that just puts Sabretooth in a permanent position to engage in melee until she lets go. Samus does not want to engage in melee with Sabretooth.

This said, I don't believe Sabretooth was shown as fast or skilled enough to reliably incapacitate Samus in melee. His claws can cut through her, and his striking is great enough, but all scans provided for Sabretooth scaling to fast characters showed him doing roughly neither of these. Or, in cases where he did, the opponent did not end up "decapitated and dismembered". No durability feats were also shown for any of these characters. I buy that Wolverine is some level of fast, but the concluding statement on this was a scan dump of Wolverine slicing darts and javelins and arrows vs "is bullet timing and agile".

Samus wins due to Sabretooth's wincon being slightly harder for him to press than Samus' wincon. I don't think this is "an 8/10" for Samus or anything though. It's more like 6. This was close.

Fem wins.
Origin vs Shishio

R1
- X

R2
- Origin is fast, Shishio is "scales to whatever". Compares 10 minutes being relevant to Shishio to Origin. Origin's sword is super sharp, and Shishio's cutting by contrast doesn't kill a robot. Origin can also turn invisible.
- Origin's fights also take minutes. Shishio can strike in sub-10 ms and scales to a ~13 ms technique. Shishio let his opponents tag him to flex. Origin can't predict Shishio because Shishio uses anime physics. Also he has fire and overheats Origin. And is stronger by far.

R3
- Shishio has fast twitch reflexes but doesn't see in slow motion. Origin is always "at speed". The 10 ms feat is vague FTE stuff, the ~13 ms feat has no movement. Shishio also gets tagged by the rifle thrust once. Origin has issues at 250 C, Shishio is less than this. Shishio's striking isn't relevant to a swordfight.
- Origin fights for several minutes. Shishio takes hits on purpose. Shishio hits Origin before Origin can predict due to anime physics and then kills him. Origin's battery can withstand 250 C, but not the rest of him.

R4
- Origin strikes visually more often than Shishio. Sabretooth potshot. Shishio's vague FTE feat is vague. Origin can retreat, go for ranged, attack from the ceiling, cuts faster than Shishio, etc. Wincon dump. Origin predicting Shishio doesn't matter, he can fight on reaction.
- Shishio takes hits for IC reasons etc. etc. Shishio is magic.

Shishio's wincon is cutting Origin apart, punching him, or hitting him with a bunch of fire. Origin's wincon is cutting Shishio apart via many different wacky means, or throwing a projectile through his head from a long range.

Fem's main contention with Shishio's speed is related to the timeframe of his fights and how often Shishio is tagged during them. The first part, I am somewhat iffy on. Both parties do have long fights, and I think Shishio talking to his opponent can explain away some portion of the minutes to leave a direct comparison vague. The second part I don't buy. I think it's clear Shishio flexes around because he's an anime character.

That leaves more direct comparisons of speed on the table. Shishio's main backing for the "faster than a rifle" scaling being valid was a ~10 ms swing and a ~13 ms technique. For the first technique, Fem's argument is correct. Eyes don't work like that. For the second, Fem also pointed out that he's tagged by that technique. As said previously, however, I think this is explained by his behavior. BUT! I don't think this matters. Even if he can perform the technique, "can move his hand an inch in ~13 ms" is not relevant to Origin. It's roughly the same as "Sabretooth legitimately scales to Wolverine, who can catch an arrow".

I don't think Origin can successfully predict Shishio, but he doesn't have to. He can dodge on reaction, as he frequently does against his opponents.

Shishio is also definitely stronger than Origin. This is relevant to a striking competition, but not so much to a "he cuts Origin" wincon. Greater strength will just ensure that his cut, cuts. It doesn't disable the rest of the body.

I ultimately think the fight comes down to whether or not Shishio and Origin land the first it. It is true that Shishio is unlikely to kill Origin in a single hit in any case, but it's not like Fem ever argued that Origin would be capable of sufficiently dueling Shishio as a dismembered torso. So that part doesn't really matter. One hit, one kill.
Joshless — Yesterday at 7:25 PM
So- Origin is faster. Origin obviously has the better reaction time (meaning in a strict 3, 2, 1, draw scenario Shishio is already some milliseconds behind), but also provably has a far greater rate of attack. "Shishio deals few blows because he talks" can explain some aspects, but it can't explain the overwhelming difference in total blows between the two unless Shishio is legitimately spending 90+% of the fight standing still. Even if this was proven, it still would not prove Shishio "sees in slow motion" and can adequately react to every angle of attack from someone who moves at angles no humans do.

Origin wins. Fem wins.
Zazie vs SoSS

R1
- X

R2
- Zazie kills SoSS in one shot and has already fought a comparable opponent and won. If SoSS tags Zazie just fights through amputation.
- Rakan fights like an idiot and isn't able to transition through attacks like SoSS can. SoSS is more agile while at the same speed Rakan is. SoSS scores supermetal, not random steel. SoSS also has shurikens that can incap Zazie. SoSS can confuse Zazie with afterimages.

R3
- Rakan fights cringe, but is still explicitly very skilled and aware. Rakan only survives as long as he does against Zazie due to having weird body magic that SoSS doesn't. SoSS is very fast but has no feats for being fast in a Zazie-esque context. SoSS doesn't go at max speed from the get go. Zazie shoots the shurikens.
- Rakan has a massive turn radius compared to SoSS. Rakan builds speed whereas SoSS does not. Rakan directly goes up against Zazie's shots at several points for seemingly no reason. Zazie can't match a close-range Mach opponent.

R4
- Zazie is fast. Rakan can bullet time at strange angles with basically any part of his body. Zazie is skilled at shooting.
- SoSS is super fast in very short ranges. Zazie has OK draw speed. Rakan has a long turn radius.

Zazie's wincon is shooting SoSS into a corner where he can't dodge, or otherwise tripping him up. SoSS's wincon is to hit Zazie with shurikens at a range, or just chop him up.

A lot of time is spent discussing Zazie's speed, which I find mostly irrelevant. SoSS wasn't argued as blitzing Zazie, per se. Nor was he argued as being absolutely faster than Rakan, and Zazie being able to at least "perceive and aim at" Rakan was never really contested. I think it's reasonable to say that Zazie can react to SoSS, but not engage him in melee.

The main "speed argument" here has nothing to do with raw speed or reaction times, but rather agility. Namely, SoSS accelerates much quicker than Rakan does. I accept that Rakan can dodge bullets from very weird angles, but this doesn't mean he dodges ~at sonic speed~ from weird angles. And even if he is, his movement around Zazie is clearly significantly worse than what SoSS can do. Reacting to something incoming at ~Mach from like 3 feet away and then doing a spinning kick is far better control than any Rakan scan.

I think that SoSS can just avoid Zazie's bullet spray. Even if it keeps him at a range, he has his shurikens, and it only takes one of those to hit Zazie in order for him to win. This fight is basically just Zazie vs Rakan except Rakan is better at the things he was bad at that made him lose.

Corv wins.

2-1.





________



Fem vs Corv


Samus Aran vs Sabretooth
Arguments I found relevant for Sabretooth
    • Sabretooth's claws can consistently slash through Samus' armor, something Fem admitted to in their first comment
    • Sabretooth playing possum is a relevant tactic that he can exploit
    • Samus has no easy way of getting over his healing factor or rapidly putting him down

Arguments I found relevant for Metroid
    • Her volume of fire is rather solid
    • Sabretooth likes to eat hits and isn’t super dodge heavy in character

All in all I don’t favor Samus in this match up. Nothing given by Fem convinces me that Sabretooth can’t eat her shots and nothing said convinces. Her shots can make dents in craters, something Not-Wolverine can roll with. She’s not skilled enough to win a CQC fight without damage and I’m with Corv that she doesn’t look paranoid enough to blast dead bodies or watch them in case they’re still alive.

Considering his senses and everything else I feel like the fight is Sabretooth eating a lot of shots but powering through it and giving Samus a serious wound.

I’m giving Corv the win here

Origin vs Shishio

Origin’s win cons
    • Is the smart
    • Can read and predict situations very well
    • Can rapidly adapt to new events
Shishio’s win conditions
    • His flames are a compounding issue regarding’s Origin’s internal body temperature
    • He’s superhuman, which is something Origin is completely not prepared for since he operates on far firmer physics
    • Shishio is strong enough to damage and likely critically damage Origin’s

While I agree with Corv’s point that Origin will be thrown by Shishio, I’m also with Fem in that won’t be an instant win or a sudden heal turn. While fast nothing given for Shishio really implies to me that he can blitz or outpace Origin, who I believe is generally slightly faster.

Origin is also rather smart and has a variety of strong tactical gear like the ability to turn invisible and rods that massively outstrip the durability of Shishio. I think there are indeed ways Shishio can win and a good hit in will do can replicate the Gon hits Origin was subject to, but I’m not convinced that overcomes the generally situational awareness that Origin possesses.

I’m giving Fem the win for this matchup.


Captain Zazie vs Speed of Sound Sonic

Points I found relevant for Sanic
    • SoSS fights more intelligently than Perv Man
    • SoSS’s burst/turning speed is much better than what Zazie is used to dealing with
    • His weapon can cut through Zazie easy

Points I found relevant for ZZ Top
    • She has something like a dozen instances of fighting and overcoming an opponent just as fast or faster than Sonic
    • Her explosives are a rather powerful weapon in this arena
    • She’s fast enough to react to Sonic and counter his ranged attacks


In the end I think Corv’s points hold up better and I don’t think Sonic can deal with some of her explosive options in close quarters. Sonic is fast, but I wasn’t really convinced by Fem that he’s head and shoulders beyond what Zazie can deal with. Her accuaracy feats, multi-tasking ability and equipment are honestly just to much in my view. SoSS has to do a lot well to get a win and I wasn’t really convinced that he could consistently get everything to go well.

So Fem wins here and the match in my view.

3-0