TESTIMONY OF CARTER PAGE

1
UNCLASSIFIED
TESTIMONY OF CARTER PAGE
Thursday, November 2, 2017
U.S. House of Representatives,
Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:40 a.m., in Room HVC-304, the Capitol,
the Honorable K. Michael Conaway presiding.
Present: Representatives Conaway, King, LoBiondo, Rooney, Ros-Lehtinen,
Turner, Wenstrup, Crawford, Gowdy, Stefanik, Hurd, Schiff, Himes, Sewell, Carson, Speier,
Quigley, Swalwell, Castro, and Heck.
UNCLASSIFIED
2
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: A quorum being present, the committee will come to order.
I would like to welcome our witness, Dr. Carter Page. Thank you for being with us
today. As a reminder to our members, we are and will remain in open session. This
hearing will address only unclassified matters. Although this hearing is closed, a
transcript will be produced and released to the public.
Before we begin, I would like to take a few housekeeping matters. First, without
objection, I move that each side shall be given 30 minutes each to ask Dr. Page questions.
At the end of each GO-minute interval, I will ask unanimous consent to continue the
alternating 3D-minute rounds.
Without further objection, the chair is authorized to declare a recess of the
committee at any time.
At this time, I would like the witness to raise his right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you will give the committee will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MR. PAGE: Ido.
MR. CONAWAY: Thank you.
Dr. Page, before I give you the opportunity to make a brief opening statement, I
would like to cover some basic information as well as provide you with the ground rules
regarding today's hearing. First, the record today will reflect that the committee sent you
a letter on May the 9th, 2017, May of 2017, requesting that you produce documents and
appear before the committee for a voluntary interview.
You responded by a letter, dated May 22nd, a copy of which, without objection, will
be entered and included in the record.
[The information follows:]
UNCLASSIFIED
3
UNCLASSIFIED
******** INSERT 1-1 ********
UNCLASSIFIED
G LOB ALE N ER G yeA P I TAL L L C
BY CERTIFIED U.S. AND ELECTRONIC MAIL
The Honorable K. Michael Conaway and Adam Schiff
U.S. ,House of Representatives
Permanent Select Conmiittee on Intelligence (HPSCI)
Capitol Visitor Center HVC-304
US Capitol Building
Washington, DC 20515
Dear Congressman Coi1awayand Congressman Schiff:
May 22,2017
Thank you for your recent correspondence requesting information regarding gove111Ii1entactive
measures directed at the 2016U.S. election. In support ()fyour ongoing efforts and to help set
thes-m;ge for my upcoming testimony before your Committee, I am pleased to present this initial
collection,ofevidence to HPSCI which should significantly contribute to the discovery offacts
within your mvestigation's publicly announced parameters. Having apparently come up with
limited substance thus far, much of the other ongoing discourse on matters related to Russia in
both chambers of the U~S. Congress as well as throughout our great country has become
desperately all-encompassing and increasingly tangential. This race to the bottom in terms of
irrelevancy has often only created further confusion in and damage to America. Rather than
assist in the actual pursuit of truth, the deceptive smokescreen of leaks has further exacerbated
cttrtent misunderstandings since most of that dialogue has remainedb6hind a selective cloud of
partial secrecy.
But in contrast, HPSCI's four highly*focused and analytic questions as set for your investigation
on-March--l, 2017, reflect a distinct level of thoughtfulness and offer a constructive framework
for analysis. 1 I greatly appreciate this opportunity to help set the record straight on eachoftbese
fdur points following the false evidence, other illegal activities as well as additional extensive
lies distributed by the Clinton campaign and their transnational associates. Working in
coordination with the Ohama Administration, their transnationalcrlroinal associates which
severely defamed me,; many other supporters of the Trump campaign and our democracy in
general should hopefully soon gam. full. exposure. Unlike recent misleading illegal leaks, the
proper legal procedutesof disclosure currently underway should further assist in this process.
As per discussions with the HPSCI Senior Counsel for Counterterrorism onFriday, I tentatively
look forward to testifying on the record regarding these matters before your Committee on .
Tuesday, June 6, 2017. In support ofthatforthtoIhing appearance, I have recently been in
contact with Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, Special Counsel Robert Mueller and
other Justice Department officials regarding the mUltiple outstanding requests for immediate
1 Devin Nunes and Adam Schiff, "Intelligence Committee Chainnan, Ranking Member
Establish Parameters for Russia Investigation," House Pennanent Select Committee on
Intelligence website, March 1, 2017.
[http://intelligence.ho!:b~e.g(}v/ne\vs/docllmentsingle.aspx?DocLlmentID=7(?1]
590 Madison Avenue, 21st floor, New York. New York 10022
t: +1(212) 537 9258 I: +1(212) 5379281
release of the illegitimate FISA warrants that were allegedly filed by the Obama Administration
against me in 2016. My personal appeals for public disclosure have echoed recent loud cries
across America's political spectrum from leftto right, including the American CiVil Liberties
Union (ACLUiand Judicial Watch (JW).3 The Privacy Act of 1974 includes provisions which,
"Grant individuals the right to seek amendment of agency records maintained on themselves
upon a showing that the- records are not accurate, relevant~ timely, or complete.,,4 As a major
affront to out democracy, the complete mockery that the Obama Administration allegedly made
of the 2016 election makes such immediate steps essential today_
Whereas I have never done anything wrong in Russia, no documents, records, electronically
stored information includhlg email, coinmunication, recordings, data and tangible things could
reasonably lead to the discovery of any facts within the investigation's publicly announced
parameters as it relates to actions by the Russian government. As further proof of this reality, the
forthcoming documents related to my alleged FISA warrant that currently remain somewhat
classified and temporarily withheld from the public by the u.s. Government should soon
lead to the discovery of a plethora of highly relevant facts within the investigation's
publicly announced parameters once disclosed. In the immortal words of Judge Robert Bark,
an "intellectual feasf' at the time of their release.
Although I ooderstand that my forthcoming testimony might be held behind closed doors, I
would request that some fonn of live public access may be allowed. For example, either livestreamed
via the internet, on public-access television or perhaps C-SPAN-S. It is importailt that
the American public have an opportunity to hear the tnith following the outrageous allegations
that have been made against me on behalf of the Clinton campaign. On the oile hand and despite
a historic level of surveillance last year, it seems understandable that keeping the failure of theTrump-
collusion conspiracy theory covered up might offer a means oflimiting the
embarrassment of this dry hole dug by those who have espoused such ideas. But since many
2 "With just the stroke oia pen, President Trump could provide the public with the information
necessary to assess hiscIaims that the Obafna administration improperly surveilled bim and his
associates." Neema Singh Guliani, "How rrumpCan Show Us Whether He Was Spied On,"
ACLU Washington Markup Blog, Apri113, 2017. [https:liwww.ac111.org/bJogl\.vashingtonlnarkup!
hc)\y-trump:.can-show-us-whether-he-was-spied]
3 Press Room, "Judicial Watch Sues for FBI Records on UK. 'Trump Dossier' ," Judicial Watch,
May 16,2017. [http:lhv\vw. i udicialvvatch.onl/press ... rooI11/prcss-reIeases!judicial-watch-sues-Jbirecords-
uk-trump-dossier{l
"Hillary Clinton's national security crimes included running the most highly classified material
the U.S. possesses across-her outlaw server without legal consequence. lfCommunications
Intelligence is used as a partisan political weapon without people going to jail, we will have
crossed the point of no return for institutional conuption in our government, our intelligence
services and law enforcement" Chris Farrell,"On Watch: Episode 11 - 'CQrrupt Weaponizing
of Intelligence Collection' ," Judicial Watch, March 28,2017.
[hUp:llww\.v.judicialwatch.orglpress"room/press-reIeases!watch-cpisodc-ll-CA)rruptweaponizil1Q-
inteIligence-collecJion!]
4 Office of Justice Programs~ Bureau of Justice Assistance.'~Privacy Act of 1974,5 U.S.C. §
552a," U.S. Department of Justice. [https:l/iLojg.gov/PrivacyLiberty/authorities!stntutes!l 279]
2
members of your Committee seem legitimately interested in getting to the bottom of this whole
story, it is only fair that some sort of a public~hearing might be similarly offered. The country
deserves an opportunity to hear my defense after the severely defamatory testimony by Mr.
Corney in front of your Committee on national television in loyal support of the ClintoniObama
regime.
As reported in an unfortunate front-page Washington Post article about the civil rights abuses
committed against me which you might have seen: "Applications for FISA warrants, Corney
said, are often thicker than his wrists, and that thickness represents all the work Justice
Department attorneys and FBI a~ents have to do to convince a judge that such surveillance is
appropriate in an investigation." Ifhis thickness is indeed the case for my FISA warrant, it will
inevitably be filled with a potpourri of falsehoods from the ClintonJObama regime which
fabricated this travesty from the outset. For the United States to end the continued delusional
charade regarding Russia's connections with the new Administration, it is essential to gain public
access to these related documents as a lllatterof the highest urgency in preparation for my
planned testimony. Any assistance that HPSCIlllight be able to provide by further encouraging
the federal authorities to. expedit~ this m.atter inadvailCe of our tentative meeting on June 6
would be greatly appreciated, both by me and innumerable Americans.
While initial steps have previously been taken by members of Congress to get to the bottom of
these civil rights injustices, Senator GrassIey, Senator Feinstein,. Senator Graham and other
distinguished members of the Senate Judiciary Committee Congress have expressed related
concerns about potential wrongdoing by the U.s. Department of Justice and the FBI in 2016. In
the wake of recent decisions by formerObama Administration appointees including Mr. Corney
which may potentially linlit their ability to carry out their role as members of their Committee,
they have noted the constraint on their capabilities as, "The FBI's primary oversight committee
with broad jurisdiction over federal law enforcement, EISA and the nomination of fuenext FBI
director. ,,6
Last week, Senator Lindsey Graham also noted, "Congress has pretty muc.h been sidelined,not
completely, but pretty much.,,7 His comments related to the rec~nt appointment of Special
5 Ellen Nakashima, Devlin Barrett and Adam Entous, "FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor
Tnunp adviser Carter Page" Washington Post; April 12, 2017.
[https:llwww. washingtonp()st.coln/world/nationaI-secul'itvlflJi-()btained-lisa-warrant-to-monitorformer-
trumQ-ad vi ser-carter-·pagel20 17/041 1 t 1620 192ea-l eOe-l1 e 7 -ad 74-
3a742a6e93a7 storv.html] .
6 NewsReleases,"Grassley, Feinstein Extremely Disappointed with Corney's Refusal t6
TestifY before Judiciary Committee," Senator Chuck Grassley webSite, May 19,2017.
[https:l/w\vw.grasslev.senate.t!ov/news!news-reIeases!grasslev-feinstein-extrcll1c1y-disappoil1tedconlcy
·s-refusal-testifv-iudiciarv] "U.S. Senator Lindsey Graham (R-South Carolina) on Former
FBI Director Corney's Decision to Testify before the Senate Intelligence Committee and notthe
Judiciary Committee," official Twitter feed for Senator lindsey Graham, May 19,2017.
~https:lltwitter.com/LindseyGrahalnSC/status/865732003634851840J
Erin Kelly, "Sen. Lindsey Graham says FBI's Russia probe may block testimony to
Congress," USA Today,-May 18,2017.
3
, .
Counsel Mueller and the legal jeopardy this may create forsorne Americans who have been
swept up in the ongoing witch hunt. But as President Trump noted at the U.S. Coast Guard
Academy commencement last Wednesday: "Over the course of your life, you will find that
things ate not always fair. You will find that things happen to you that you do not deserve and
that are hot always warranted. But you have to put your head down and fight, fight, fight.
Never, ever; ever give up. Things will work out just fine."s By all accounts, theClintonJObama
regime's fake FISA warrant targeting me for exercising my First Amendment rights is the most
unwarranted abuse of power that I and most Americans have witnessed in any election
throughout our lifetimes. We must get to the bottom of this as quickly and efficiently as
possible. I cannot underscore enough the need for transparency surrounding last year's apparent
transgressions by the U.S. Qovernmentwhich HPSCI is helping to expose.
I hope that my answers to your four strategic questions below helps to partially fill that gap:
A) Russian Government (the so-caUed "Putin regime,,9)
Although I played no role in allY government active measures in the 2016 election other
than being a target of the Obama Administration's efforts to support Mrs. Clinton's
campaign, the only discussion I can recall where WikiLeaks even tangentia11ycrune up with any
Russian occurred on the afternoon of Monday , October 24, 2016. In the moments before
recording a TV interviewlO at RT'sstudios in London where I was visiting for a few days on my
way to Johannesburg, the host and staff mentioned in passing that the news they saw about
WikiLeaks in the U .K.papers seemed like h might potentially be interesting. However, they
anecdotally noted inpas·sing that it was Wifoi1unate that there was no way to efficiently sort
through the high number of documents Which had been released. Based Oil this limited verbal
interaction, it seems lJrui.kely that Russian entities such as this televiSion network Were in any
way directly involved hi the WikiLeakscyber activity. While I have seen no definitive evidence
to support the January 6, 2017 intelligence report, my highly limited personal exposure to .reIated
[https:l/vvwvv.usatodav .COD1/StoI'y/news/poiitics/20 17/05118/sen-lindscv-gralllml-says-H)i~russiaprobe-
mav-block-testimonv-congress/I0184227-<U]
8 office of the Press Secretary, "Remarks by President Trump at United States Coast Guard
Academy Commencement Ceremony," White Hel.Ise website, May 17, 2017.
[htlPS://WViW. \\"hitehouse. !lOV /thc~prcss-ofl1ce/20 17/05/1 7 /remarks~president-trump-ul1 i tedstates-
coast-uuard-academv-conuncnccment]
9 Devin Nunes and Adam Schiff, "Intelligence Committee Chainnan, Ranking Member
Establish Parameters for Russia Investigation, "House Permanent Select Committee on
Intelligence website, March 1, 2017.
fhttp;l/i.ntell igence.house.govh:cws/documcntsingle,aspx?DocumentlD=767]
o Gomg Underground RTchp, YOllTube, October 29,2016.
[https://vv,\},fw_vontube.com/wrrtch?v=O\VEqGTOJEnS]
4
issues seems to point to. a fundamentally different conclusionregardiilg potential Russian '
involvement. .
Aside from this very limited exposure to such potential topics which may speculatively suggest
this opposite conclusion from that suggested by Obaina Administration officials, I have no
personal information that the Russian government or anyone associated with it played any
role in the 2016 U.S. election. Furthermore, during my visits to Moscow in July 2016 and
December 2016, I was never approached by any Russian official or person associated with the
Russian government who led me to in any way believe they had some intention to negatively
impact the U.S. Government or the 2016 election which the Obama Administration was severely
manipulating.
By comparison, during the opening remarks of Senator Sheldon Whitehouse at a Senate
Judiciary Subcommittee On Crime and Terrorism meeting earlier this month, he presented a
helpful table for thinking about government active measures directed at the 2016 U.S. election. l1
B) U.S.·Governmenf(the ClintonlObama regime)
As stated in my response to Questiou.LA) above, nothing I have personally seen direct evidence
of in a Russian context during 20 16 matches any of Senator Whitehouse's specific criteria.
I-Iowever, based on his same analytic framework, below is a $uti1mary of the Clinton/Obama
Regime Toolbox used in meddling in the 2016 election as per my direct personal experiences
which that I describe in .the answers to your subsequent investigatory questions below:
11 "Opening Remarks of Senator· Sheldon Whitehouse (D-RI), Senate Judiciary Subcommittee
on Crime and Terrorism, May 8,2017," Senator Whitehouse website.
[https:/lwwv.f.whitehouse.senate.Qovlinl0/media/docl20 17-05-
08%20SJCCTCX}?Ohearing%20opcnil]g%?Oremarks%20as%)20delivcred·ru;!l1
5
Propaganda, Fake
News
Hacking and theft of .
Timed leaks of
damaging material
Assassination and
politic~l violence
Investment control in
key e.conomic sectors
Shady business I
imancial ties
Corrupting I
compromising
politicians
2016 Dodgy Dossier saturated private media
since August 2016; RFEIRL repeats.
Yes, if unjustified FISA warrant news proves
to be correct
Felony #1: Illegal leaking of "Male-l"
identity
Felony #2: Illegal leaking ofUiljustifi¢d FI$A
warrant
Yes, threats to my life following Clinton
campaign fake news & commentary
Coercion related to miniscule Gazprom ADR
investment following gangster tactics by
Reid
Cash payoffs related to 2016 Dodgy Dossier
(Clinton associates <-> Steele)
Cash payoffs related to 2016 Dodgy Dossier
(U.S. Govet:nment <-> Steele)
Although I still do not have sufficient information at this stage while I await the aforementioned
disClosUre regarding the Obama Administration' sactions taken against me in this regard, Senator
Grassley, Senator Graham and others members of the Senate Judiciary Committee have taken
initial positive steps to helpaddtess the genuinely problematic active meaSures by the U.S.
Government with foreign entities during the Obama Administration which unsuccessfully sought
to influence last year's election. These matters are further described in my response to HPSCI
Investigation Question 2.B), below.12
.
12 Catherine Herridge, Pamela K. Browne and Cyd Upson, "Corney pressed for anti-Trump
dossier in classified Russia report, Sources say," Fox News, May 05, 2017.
[http://ww\v;foxncws.com/politicsI2017/0SI05/comev-prcsscd .. Jor-anti-trump-dossicr-inclassit1ed,;.
russia-report-sources-sav.html]
6
A) Russian Government (the so-called "Putinregime")
I have had extensive experiences in Russia and with Russian people since the fmal days of the
Soviet era in 1991 when 1 first visited as a U.S. Naval Academy Midshipman, I personally saw
no active measures by the Russian government or other foreign entities to interfere in any
political campaigns whatsoever - neither last yeatnor at any point throughout my life.
Nonetheless, one way to protect the United States more effectively is to recognize that the
American understanding of Russia and other countries remains woefully inadequate. Most often
this has been based on outdated stereotypes. Worse yet, in many instances this understanding
may have no basis in reality whatsoever as we have increasingly Seen over recent
months. Because of this ignorance and as I have personally experienced throughout the course
of the past year, the U.S. Government and media is easily manipulated byiudividuals, groups
and other countries who do not put American interests first. The publicly-released findings by
Obama Administration intelligence officials including James Corney seem to be based on
inferences drawn from their personal beliefs about Russian President Vladimir Putin's
motivations about which they have little or no actual knowledge or understanding.
If our government had a bettertlllderstallding of Russia 8lld the way business is now conducted
in Russia, the 2016 Dodgy Dossier which alleged I should have received amultibiIlion-dollar
bribe after President Trump's victory in November would have been immediately dismissed as a
work of fiction by these supposed subj ect~matter experts.
B} u.s. Government (the Clinton/Obama regime)
In Congressman Schiff's opening statement on March 20,2017, the Ranking Member very
directly addressed related abuses by foreign entities during the 2016 U.S. election. This
represented a highly relevant instance of external interference given the transnational actor
Steele;s cOmiec:tion to Obama Administration officials and U.S. Government agents under their
command which 'origi1lal1y assisted in misleading him:
"According to Christopher Steele~a British - a fonner British intelligence officer, who
is reportedly held in high regard by U.S. intelligence, Russian sources tell him that Page
has also llad a secret m.eeting with Igor Sechin, CEO of the Russian gas giant, Rosneft.
Sechinisreported to be a former KGB agent and close friend of Put in's .... Is it a
coincidence that the Russian gas company, Rosneft, sold a 19 percent share after former
British intelligence officer Steele was told by Russian sources that Carter Page was
offered fees on a deal of just that size?"I3
13 Rowan ScarborOugh, "Desperate Dems cling to discredited spy dossier to link Trump to
Russians," The Washington Times, March 21,2017.
[http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 1 7 Imar/211discrecli ted-dossier-cletail ing4rumprussian-
col I ll$/]
7
The fact that Steele is "held in high regard by U.S. intelligence" seems to provide further
supporting evidence of the extensive collusion between this transnational Clinton associate and
the Obama Admitristration, as U.S. Government agencies allegedly supported their domestic
political intelligence operation. . .
Amongst many other complete lies·that originated from that foreign entity in his 2016 Dodgy
Dossier, this above-mentioned excerpt regarding the.Rosneft sale from the highly inaccurate
docl.l1l1ent concocted by the political consultant associated with the Clinton campaign Mr. Steele
remained one of the primary false allegations against me throughout much of last year. Yet a
month after the election, SwitzerIand-basedGlencore pIc was revealed as the actqal buyer of that
stake in December 2016 - a company founded by Marc Rich. With respect to potential
coincide11ces as Representative Schiff-alluded to on March 20, please note that I have never met
with 'any member of Glencore's executive management. But there is someone.Whb .
coincidentally has had an exceptionally close relationship with Glencore's top management via
its founder. For further background, 1 would refer you to the 2001 proceedings before the House
of Representatives Committee on Government Reform regarding "The Controversial Pardon of
International Fugitive Marc Rich" which provides e.xtensive related details. As thenRepresentative
Bernie Sanders said during those hearings:
"I think it is important that we have this hearing, that we learn about what Mr. Clinton
did and his terrible lapse in judgment, but if we are going to talk about money in politics,
lees Hille about money in politics, the influence that money had on Mr. Clinton ... ,,14
Congressnlan Schiff has recently warned of the potential for any, . "deeply disturbing pattern of
distraction,distortion and downright fabrication" in the ongoing investigatiops in the 2016
election. 15 You will find that any. objective comparison of the false allegations against me
regarding my~upposed role in the Rosneft tranS~ction and the·actualacquh:et'S longhistory of
re1afionswith Clinton campaign associates may stand as the quintessential example of the exact
kind of disturbing pattern that you caution against.· I will·address this matter further in the
contextofmy initial response to HPSCI Investigation Question #4, below ("What possible leaks
of c.Ias.sifiedinformation took place related to the Intelligence COm.rr1uIiity AssessrnentoftheSe
matters?").
To help further illustrate how disgraceful this process of the U.S. Government's active measures
with foreign entitles was during the Ohama Administration, it is also worthreca1ling some of last
year's fmal misdeeds by forrrierGang of Eight member Harry Reid. Characteristic of some of
the ongoing investigations which he helped instigate with Corney and typical of his personal
level of integrity? Mr. Reid has previously stated that making prior false claims without any
evidence during the preceding U .8, Presidential election in 20'12 was "one of the best things I've
14
btt12s:IIIJ.Illllild.wikimc(;UQ.anl/v, ikiP.ed ia/commonsl III 2120QJ The Controversial Pardon_pL.Ll}t~IQ.f111QIHlL[u .
gitive Mal'c Ric!1ndf
15 Darlene Superville, "Trump enlists Congress, ex-jntel chief denies wiretapping," PBS
Newshour~ Match 5, 2017. D1UJl;11.!Y..l~bs.()ndnewsholJrlrui1d~)\vn/trllJllP-enlist$-congress-cx-inteI-thiefdenies-
wirctaQ1w:mL] .
8
ever done.:' 16 Although this is obviously almost the exact same thittgwhlch again happened
against meaild the Ttulll.p carhpaign last year, it is my hope thatHPSCI might help restore the
dignity of the U.S. Intelligence COmniittee and indeed the U.S. Congress by moving beyond the
standards of such gangster tactics and the· transnational veritable organized crime l1etwork that
Reid leveraged during the Clinton/Obama regime. 17 . .
In addition to his standing as one of the early promoters of the 2016 Dodgy Dossier by illicit
foreign entities, Harry Reid simultaneously further incited a federal case out of other complete
nonsense by asking Director Corney to investigate my investments in Gazprom and supposed
conflicts of interest this might create.18 Given the complete disaster that the ClintonJObama.
regime made of U. S . .;. Russia relations and the related problems they inflicted on ·private industry
across the Russian economy, I held no other financial or real estate holdings related to Russia
during the period of the U.S. presidential campaigns other than this miniscule stake of
Gazprom's American Depository Receipts.
Demonstrating the extreme loyalty which James Corney maintained for the Clinton/Obama
regime, it is worth noting that neither he nor any other member of the U.S. intelligence
community ever responded in 2016 to my letter clarifying the facts in these matters (below).
16 Chris Cillizza, "Harry Reid1ied about Mitt Romney's taxes. He's still not sorry," Washington
Post, September 15, 2016. [https:l/www.washingtonpost.comlnews/the-fixlwp/20 16/09/15/harryreid
.. lied-about-mitt-romneys-taxes-hes-still-not-sorryl] Ben Terris, mI hate palm trees': The
sentimentaljoumey of Harry Reid," Washington Post, September 14,2016 ..
D1ttps:lhN\vw.washingtonpos1 .. com/lifestvle!stv!e/i-hate~palm·trees·the .. sentinlental-i()urnev-of: ..
han"y-reidJ2016/09/14Iafcfc6bc-730 } .. 11 c6-be4f·3f42t2e5u49c siorv.ht1111]
17 Particularly in light of the alleged collusion with the 2016 Podgy Dossier authorin the U.K.,
they precisely match the defInition ofTtansnational Organized Crime: "ThoseselfMperpetuating
associations of individuals who operate transnationally for the purpose of obtaining power,
influence, and monetary andJorcoDl1i1ercial gains, wholly or in part by illegal means, while
pto~ectin,g their activities through a pattern of conuption ... "
"Transnational Organized Crime: Glossary of Terms," FBI website.
[https:/l\V\v\v.fbLgov/investlrrute/organized-c.rime]
18 Minority Leader Harry Reid letter to Director Comey, August 27,2016.
[htt ps:i I assets.documentc1oud.o rg/doclllne n ts/3 () 35 844/Reid -Let tcr-to-Co tney _pd}]
9
September 25, 2016
The Honorable James Corney
Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation
935 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW
Washington, DC 20535
Dear Director Corney:
1 am writing to request the FBI's prompt end of the reported inquiry regarding my personal trip
to Russia in July 2016 ~ an investigation which has been widely mentioned in the media. ,In this
regard, I wanted to provide you with a few basic facts which should help underscore what a
complete waste of time this Witch-hunt directed at me is.
As you may be aware, the source of these accusations is nothing more than completely false
media reports. Yet for the record, I have, not met this year with any sanctioned individual in
Russia or any other country despite the fact that there are no restrictions on U.S. persons
speaking with such individuals~
I understand that my stake inPJSC Gazprom has also been brought to your attention. For your
information, last month I sold my American Depository Receipts in Gazprom. At this time, I
maintain no hOlding in the company within any of my investment entities or personal accounts.
My prior stake in Gazprom which I divested last month represented a de minimis equity
investment that I sold at a loss. It is hard to imagine why this might have been deemed relevant,
but I wanted to mention it since you were asked to look into this matter.
In bothering the Bureau· with such repeated appeals, the parties who have requested my
investigation clearly fall to appreciate the risks they create for America with these shenanigans.
Instead of allowing the staff of the FBI to focus the nation's limited resources onreal threats,
these desperate and unfounded calls for myirtvestigation as a private citizen to advance political
in.terests based. on nothipg more thall preposterous mainstream media reports is a true disgrace~
Having interacted with members of the U.S. intelligence community including the FBI and CIA
for many decade~; I appreciate the limitations on your staff's time and resources. Although I
, have not been contacted by any member of your. team in recent months, I woUld eagerly await
their' call to discuss any fmal questions they might have in the interest of helping them put these
outrageous al1egationsto rest while allowing each of us to,shift our attention to useful matters.
Thahk you in advance for your consideration.
Sincerely,
Carter Page
I was never subsequently contacted last year by any official from the FBI as requested in the
above correspondence. But I did eventually learn that an intensive domestic political
surveillance operation was instead initiated on behalf of the Clinton/Obama regime.
10
In concert with the corrupt Clinton/Ohama regime's practices of2016, I would be interested to
learn if indeed similar related infonnation payoff propositions may be on offer in this instance.
It has been reported that $50,000 was offered by the U.S. Government to the transnatioiull
political research operatives of the Clinton campaign - apparently a special treat from the·Obama
Administration to supplement whatever undisclosed, presumably larger amount was a.lready paid
by Clinton associates for Steele's 2016 Dodgy Dossier, 19 The complete lies that the Dodgy
Dossier hastily assembled might have carried potentially disastrous results for the integrity of the
2016 election had voters fallen for their dishonesty. But the factual information which I will be
happy to provide you, assUl11ing my Hlegitinlate FISAwarrant is disclosed through some
government transparency, might prove infinitely more valuable and relevant.
Based on extensive reporting related to the completely tmjustified civil rights abuses committed
against me in 2016, there is a widesprea4 need to protect ourselves in the future from similar
illegal violations of our democracy by dishonest, corrupt politicians in the homeland seeking to
advance their personal and partisan interests.
Regru:dipg what We need to do to protect ourselves and our allies in the future, the first step is
greater transparency. With the·changjng of the guard at the FBI and other U.S. Intelligence
Community institutions,this process has already begun. However, a full public account of last
year's civil rights crimes particularly as it relates to my alleged illegitimate FISA warrant will
prove essential in this process. "
In your March 20, 2017 hearing, the following exchange occurred:
Congressman Schiff: Director Corney, I want to begin by attempting to put to rest
several claims made by the president about his predecessor, namely that President ()bama
wiretapped his phones. So that we can be precise, I want to refer you to exactly what the
president said and ask you whether there is any truth to it.
First, the president claimed, quote, tlTerrible. Just found out that Obama had my wires
tapped in Trump Tower just before the victory. Nothing found. This is McCarthyism,"
unquote.
Director Corney, was the president's statement that Obarna had his wires tapped in Trump
Tower a true statement?
19 Chuck Ross, "Here's How Much The FBI Planned" To Pay Trump Dossier Author," Chuck
Ross, Daily Caller, Apri122, 2017. [hup:!ldnilvcalIer.c()ln/2017/04/22/heres-how-much.,the-l.hiplanned~
to-Rav-1rllmp-dossier-~11llhort.l
11
Comey: With respect ·to the president's tweets about alleged wiretapping directed at him
by the prior administration~ I have no information that supports those tweets and we have
looked carefully inside the FBI. The Department of Justice has asked me to share with
you thEtt the answer is the same for the Department of Justice and all its components. The
department has no infonnation that supports those tweets~ 20
Based on revelations in the press thus far, I was the primary known person allegedly put under
the most intensive surveillance by the Obama Administration as part of their 2016 domestic
political intelligence operation. Assuming the FISA reports in the Washington Post, New York
Times and other publications about me are correct, the facts should help dispel the
misinformation that Congressman Schiff and other members of your Com.niittee received during
Comey'stestimony. To the contrary, each of the President's tweets of March 4, 2017 were
entirely correct as described in the analysis of his four related statements that day, below:
"TERRIBLEl JUST FOUND OUT THAT OBAMA HAD MY 'WIRES TAPPED' IN
TRuMP TOWER mST BEFORE THE VICTORY. N()TmNG FOUND. TIIIS IS
MCCARTHYISM!"
Although I stepped away from my role as an informal, unpaid canlpaign volunteer in the wake of
the Clinton campaign's lies based on the 2016 Dodgy Dossier, like many millions of Americans I
continued my support as a member of the Trump movement which I had maintained smce June
2015.
The key defense that former Obama Administration appointees including James Corney might
have made apparently centers on the word "my".
In the English language, the word "my" is defmed as: "belonging to or ASSOCIATED WITH
the speaker" (emphasis added).21 Although I previously served as avery junior member of the
Trump movement who didn't actually have any direct one-on-one discussions ot meetings with
our candidate, I have been labelled as a "Trump associate" in literally thousands of media articles
and television programs. This labeling largely stemmed from consistent mischaracterizations by
the Clinton associates which tried to smear the Trump campaign with false allegations of
improper relationships with Russian officialswhich.never actually occurred .
. Furthermore, in order to properly understand his personal lexicon which stems from the altruistic
management philosophy of President Trump, it is useful bearing in mind his core campaign
philosophy. P.er his Election Day victory speech:
20 Washington Post Staff, "Full transcript: FBI Director James Corney testifies on Russian
interference in 2016 election," Washington Post, March 20,2017.
[https:llwwVl. washingtonpOSLcom/news/post -poLi tics/\vp/20 1 7 /03/20/full-transcriRl-lbi -dircClorj.
BJnes-comey-testifies-on-russian-interference-in-20 16-election/]
21 "My/' Oxford Dictionaries, Oxford University Press, 2017 .
. [https:llcn.oxforddictionarics.com/definition/mv]
12
"As I've said from the beginning, ourSo was not a campa.ign but rather an incredible and
great movement, made up of millions of hard-working men and women who love their
country and want a better, brighter future fotthemselves and for theirfamily ..... This was
tough. This political stuff is nasty, and it is tough .... You've all given me such incredible 0
support, and! ,viII tell you that we have a large group of people. You know, they
kept saying we have a small staff. Not so small. Look at all of the people that we have.
Look at all of these people.fl22
Additionally, then-candidate Donald J. Trump also previously explained how his movement Was
not about him but about us on countless other occasions last year. Again, in his final speech at
the end of the campaign after victory had been declared, President-elect Trump noted: "I've just
received a call from Secretary Clinton. She congratulated Us - it's about us - on our
victory. ,,230
"IS IT LEGAL FOR A SITTING PRESIDENT TO BE 'WIRE TAPPING' A RACE FOR
PRESIDENT PRIOR TO AN ELECTION? TURNED DOWN BY COURT EARLIER. A
NEW LOW!"
Based on the actual facts in my case rather than the false information provic:led by the Clinton
camprugnand their surrogates in the U.S. Government last year, members afmy legal team have
informed me that the alleged actions °by the Obama Adniinistration are ceftainlynot legal. In
order to prove this and rather thancontinum.g the current cover-up, access to the information that
I have requested fromOthe U.S. Department of Justice will be essential. 0
tfI'DBET A GOOD LAWYER COULD MAKE A GREAT CASE OUT OF tHE FACT
THAT PRESIDENT OBAMA WAS TAPPING MY PHONES IN OCTOBER,JUST
PRIOR TO ELECTION!"
My legal team has confrrmed that great cases canObe made. However, in order to do so, the
information requested for the public release of my FISA warrant application would be very
helpful. Of greater significance, it would also help to clear up the wrongful misunderstanding
held by a vastproportion of the American public. I am confident thatHPSCI will contribute to
this process. .
"HOW LOW HAS PRESIDENT OBAMA GONE TO T APP MY PHONES DURING THE
VERY SACRED ELECTION PROCESS. THIS IS NIXONIW ATERGATE. BAD (OR
SICK) GUY!"
22 "Transcript: Donald Trump's Victory Speech," New York Times, November 9; 2016.
!https:IJvv')vw.nvtilnes.com/20 16/11/1 O/us/politics!trurnp-speec.h-transcript.htrnl)
3 "Transcript: Donald Trump's Victory Speech," New York Times, November 9, 2016.
[httns:/lw\vw.nvtirnes.com/20 16/11 II a/us/pol itics/trump-spcech-transcript.html]
13
Having previo~ly ~p()ken in favor of some of Mr. Trump'.s policies on Fox News Group
programs during the 2016 campaign24 and given the peaceful relationship Ihave had with
Russian citizens for many decades since my years in the U.S. Navy, it may be understandable
why I would be the. primary associated political target if such sick activities had indeed been
committed as alleged in the previously cited media reports and other publications. Although I
have never had any direct relationship or meetings with President Trump despite previously
serving as an informal,unpaid l11ember of one of his campaign's committees, I had frequently
dined in Trump Grill, had lunch in Trump Cafe, had coffee meetings in the Starbucks at Trump
Tower; attended events among other visits in2016. Asa sister skyscraper in Manhattan, my
office at the ruM Building (590 Madison Avenue) is literally linked to the Trump Tower
building by an atrium. So ifprior media reports are proved to be correct that surveillance was
indeed undertaken against me and other Trump supporters according to the FISA documehtatioh
you can provide, it will essentially be deemed as a proven fact that the: American people;s
concerns that Trump Tower was under surveillance last year is entirely accurate. Please note that
mymbbile phohe is always turned on and with me 24-hoursa day, except when I am in airplanem()
d~ duringtlights. As an early Tnrrnpcampaign supporter since June 20 15artd a proud
mernber of the historic Make America Great Again movement, yet another attack against me of
this sort may well have been a de facto attack against the citizen who would eventually become
our current President of the United States. Cle~ly, such potential abuses will be proven or
disproven based on the information regarding the alleged illegal wiretapping of ine and any
associated FISA warrants that the execlltive branch should soon provide.
While a September 23,2016 news article stated that, "U.S. intelligence agencies have also
received reports that Page met with another top Ptitin aide while in Moscow," 2~ it wasn;t until
several mOilths later in January 2017 that the soUrce of-this false evidence became fully known:
the Dodgy possier prepared on behalf of the "Hillary for America" campaign. As a potential
severe case of election fraud, any FISA warrant would help ascertain whether criminal
obstruction of justice in the form of false evidence may be the case. After the report by Yahoo
News,the Clinton campaign rut out an equally false press release just minutes after the article
was released that ,afternoon.2
Compounding this transnationaldisinfonnation initiative, even the U.S. Government-funded
propaganda outletsecho~d the lie~ advanced bytbe Clinton campaign' s D~d~~ Dossier~ again, in
contrast to what Steele himself saId was "never supposed to be made publtc" ).As dutifully
24 For example: Fox Business, August 16,2016 [I1Up:/lfinnncc.yahoo.com/videoJjan-brewerobnma-
not ... concerncd-224534·142.htmI]; Fox Business, "Varney & Co.," SeptemberS, 2016.
25 . Michael Isikoff, "U.S. intel o:fficials probe ties betweenTrumpadviserahd Kremlin," Yahoo
News, September 23, 2016. [b.!..tQs:/IWV.lW. vahoo.com/nc\;vs/u-s-intel-on1cialli.:.nrobe-tiespet\
veen-trump-adviser-nnd-kremli.n-175046002.htl11l]
26 Hillary for America, "Hillary for America Statement on Bombshell Report About Tr1lIl1p
Aide's Chilling Ties To Kremlin," September 23,2016.
[https:/lwww.hillarvC/intol1.com/bric [Jnu/slatcll1Cnts/20 161.09/23/11 i lIary- for-ameri <:i:l-statcmcnt-:
on~b()mbshcll-r£Dort-abollt-trump-aidcs-chillinu-licsMw .. kremlin/]
27 Rowan Scarboroug4, "Ex-spy admits anti-Trump dossier unverified, blames Buzzfeed for
publishing," Washington Times, April 25, 2017.
14
recited by the Obama Administration-sponsored Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty news
network in September 2016: "Yahoo News cited the same Western intelligence soUrce as saying
that U.S. intelligence officials have received reports that Page has also met with Igor Diveikin, a
right..:harid manofVyacheslav Volodin, Putin's firstde~uty cbiefof staff and a key architect of
Russia's political landscape during Putih's thlrd term."z
Just days before the election, the same U.S. Government-funded sources repeated these
fabrications: "Another adviser, Carter Page, reportedly met with top Kremlin officials including
those UiJ.der U.S. sanctions.,,29
The propagation of these falsehoods was indee4 tl'ulystate,,;spoDsoted by bur taxpayer dollars
with Radio Free EuropelRadio Liberty's FY 2016 budget of$108A million in direct federal
subsidies.
To help further put in context how outrageous the Clinton/Obama regune's witch hunt has been,
it is worth considering the similar case study of General Flynn. Frustrated in the wake of her
failed attempt to circumvent the long-delayed introduction of effective immigration pbliciesin
the United States, SaUy Yates instead turned her attention to destroying the career of a
distingllished American and potentially damaging the stability of the U.S. Government.
Although I have nevertnet General Flynn, his recent experie1lces 111ake clear that arty minor
variation between his. memory of a conversation during a vacation on the beaches of the
Dominican Republic vs. the in-depth transcript kept by the deep state was simply concocted as
an efficient mechanism offratnilig him and his colleagues for Severe personal damage. Having
been falsely accused for potential '~blackinail" by U.S. officials who have little understanding of
the inner workings of the Russian governrheilt myself, I have a deep, frrsthandappreciation of
these McCarthy-style scare tactics despite having no relationship with Gen.eral FlYnn myself.
From the start,· this entire exercise has seemed primarily:motivated as a means for suppression of
dissent. Even Senator Feinstein admitted recently: ", .. when I saw atltree-star general in front of
the Republican convention shouting' lock her up,' I thought, all nlygoodness, This w6u1d never
happen~ it never has happened before, this is a three-star general of the United States military
doing this With no evidence. And it made a big impression on me.,,30 Similar to my experiences,
the retribution for this exercise of his FIrst Amendment rights cuts to the core of the matter. In
any event, the preponderance of evidence related to the cases General Flynn referred to during
his speech in Cleveland greatly exceeds anything in the 2016 Dodgy Dossier which eventually
[http://w\vw.\vashint:;tontimcs,COln/news/20 17/apd25/christopher-steclc-admits-dossier-chargeunverifie/]
28 "Report: U.S. Intelligence Officials ExaminingTnunp Adviseris Russia Ties/' Radio Free
Europe I Radio Liberty,·September 24, 2016. OlUp:/I\,vvv'w.rfcrl.org!alt-eport-us-intelliQence-
~tobe5-trurnp-advisers-russia-ties-kremlin/280 1 0062.htIlll]. .
9 Mike Eckel, "Reset To Overload: Russia-U.S. Ties Have Changed, No Matter Who Wins
The Election," Radio Free Europe/ Radio Liberty, November 6,2016. [http://www.rferl.org/alus-
election-trunlp-cUnton-relations-russial281 00058.htnl1J
30 Meet the Press transcript, NBC News, May 7,2017. [http://v/\vw.nbcnews.com!mect-thcprcss/
mect;"pl'css-mav-7-20 17-n75600 I]
15
became a cornerstone of the crooked initiative against me and other supporters of the Trump
movement,first within the prior Administration and now amongst some actors in Congress.
Instead, I appreciate that the beneficial framework created by HPSCI's parallel investigation now
offers a factual and constructive pathway forward for our country.
Although several other crimes by the Clinton/Obama regime during the 2016 election 'contiIiue to
become known overtime, the possible le~s of classified infonnationwhich took place related to
the Obama Adinlrristration'sInteUigence COrninUhity Assessment of these matters have thus far
included two specific felonies which directly relate to me as outlined in my response to this
question. The specific details provided here regarding these felonies help to further illustrate
how completely unjusti:Qed their actions were - both the highly damaging leaks of this classified
infonnati.on given the extreme falsehoods UPOll which they wetepased, as Well as theitRus$ia
witch hunt more broadly:
Felony #1: Illegal.leakingojmy identity as '~ale-l" in U.S.A. v. Evgeny Buryakov, Igor
Spo1ysllev, and VictorPodobnyy - On Apri13, 2017, reporters at ABC News31 and 13UZzFeed
'News32 requested to meet in order to informrne that U.S. governrnentoperativeshad unlawfully
disclosed my identity as Male-l in this 2015 case. This particular-incident follows an increasing
series of similar revelations about other politically-motivated unmaskings in 2016.33 It relates to
my brief interactioIls in 2613 with Victor Podobnyy,ajunior attache assigned to thePetmanent
Mission of the Russian Federation to the United Nations.
During my meeting with U.S. agents at New York's Plaza Hotel in June 2013 in support of their
ongoin.g .investigation, I spoke with them at length about my research on international political
economy which I had been completing as a, Fellow at the Center for National Policy in
Washington. I brought this up because it seemed t() me that the resources of the U.S.
Government might be better allocated towards addressing real national security threats,
particularly given the recent Boston Marathon bOlnbingof-AprillS, 2013. Without question, the
harsh retributioh subsequently takenagrunstmem.arked a direct retaliati()n against my dissenting
position about the efficientuse of1imitedU~S. national security. resources. Per an article I had
recently written and discussed with the U.S. agents (included below), the ClintonlObama regime
31 Brian Ross and Matthew Mosk~ "Truinp campaign adviser Carter Page targeted for
recruitment by Russian spies," ABC News, Apr 4,2017. [http://abcncws.go.com/Politics!trumpcampaiQn-
advis()r~cartel'-pao:e-targeted-russian-spie$/storv?id=46557506]
32 Ali Watkins, "A Former Trump Adviser Met With A Russian Spy," BuzzFeed News, April
3, 2017. [https:/lwww.buzzfeed.cOlTl/ulimwatkins/a-fonner-trull1p-adviser-mct-\\'ith-a-ru$sian-
&pv] .
33Kxistina Wong, "Lindsey Graham: 'We Will Continue' to Look into Susan Rice's
Unmasking," Breitbart News, May 4, 2017. D..l!..tR:llvvvv'\v.breHbarLcoll1/bi~governmentJ2017/
05/04/Iindsey-graham-we-will-continuc-to-look-into-sLlsan-rices-Ut1l11Usking/]
16
had been, "Reflecting the highest principles· of cronyism rather than democracy," in many of
their policy decisions. In my writings, I had also cited a recent quote from Maya Angelou which
seemed of particular relevance given a range of ineffective policy approaches by Washington at
the time: '~The philosophers tell us that poWer cdrrupts and absolute power corrupts
absolutely.,,34 This h~ marked aneatlier instance of the corrupt influence campaign and related
domestic political intelligence operations in support of failed policies, which would eventually
blossom in full glory with the obnoxious civil rights violations based on complete lies displayed
during the 2016 electioll. In short, my dissenting position led to damaging personal attacks by
governmeiltoperatives under theObama Administration's command.
With regards to the 2015 case where I agreed to provide support, the fmal scene of the movie
"The Big Short" offets an instructive summary of the ClintonJObama regime's justice system,
first led by their Attorney General from 2009 through 2Q15, Eric Holder.35 After essentially
achieving very little in his 6-years in office, it is understandable why Holdet might want to target
a token Russian banker· during his final months in office36 since only Zurich-based Credit '
Suisse's Kareem Serageldin stood as another perfunctory accomplishment during his extended
six-year tenn.
As the journalist Matt Taibbi has described his activities in a 2015 artic1e, which has more
recently proven to offer an accurate representatjon of the Clinton/Obama regime more generally:
"Holder doesn't look it, but he was 'a revolutionary. He institutionalized a radical dualistic
approach tocriInirutljustice, essen.tially creating a system of indulgences wherein the world's
rIchest companiespaidcasb fOf theh:sinsand escaped the stem.er punishments the]aw
dictated. ,,37
34 Maya Augelou, "The 2013 Time 100: Icons," Time, April 18, 2013.
lhiID:/ltime 1 OO.time.comI20 13!041l8/6mc-l OO/sHdeimichelIc-obmua[)
5 "Blame the poor -clip from The Big Short," YouTube, January 14, 2016.
!ht!pS:I/wvv'\v.youtllbe.c~)m/watch?v=nlCJl1lzEawWiO]
6 Office of Public Affairs, "Attorney General Holder Announces CbargesAgainst Russian Spy
Ring in New York City," Departnlent of Justice website, January 26,2015.
[https:llww'vv.justic.e.gov/opa/prlattorncy-general-holder-announees..:charges-against.-russian-spvring-
ne\v-york-city]
37 Matt Taibbi, "Eric Holder, Wail Street Double Agent, Comes in From the Cold: Barack
Obama's former top cop cashes In after six years of letting banks run wild," Rolling Stone, July
8,2015.
[http://vvw\v.rofliIlgstone.comJpolitics!news!eric-holder-'vvaII-street-double-agent-comes-in-n·omthe-
cold-20 150708] .
17
In March 2003, the CeD:tury Foundation and the Stanley Foundation released ~ report entitled
;.~u .S. r.'orcign Policy and Chechnya~·. Written by Michael McFaul who was thel1 a Professor at
. Stanford University prior to taking positions in the Obama Administration, the report included a
review of various factoids on this topic. But the most valuable contribution it .offered was a
window into the underlying source of age-old problems that have plagued the U.s.-Russia
bilateral relatfonship to this day, Some of these very same obstacles may have helped pave the
way for the tragedy that ()ccun~ed at the Boston Marathon on April 15, 2013. The report's
conclusions essentially highlight fundamental philosophies, objectives and dilemmas that have
stood in the way of vit~ cooperation:
"US policy regarding Chechnya exposes the limits of American power even in an age of .
unbridled US power. Russia's military interventions in Chechnya were policies thatUS
foreign policy leaders would have liked to stop. In the end, however, policies pursued by
both the Clinton and Bush administrations have had little impact on the course of the war
in Chechnya."
Reflecting persistent tendencies and aspirations toward unbridled US power, some of the options
suggested in the article bordered on the truly draconian:
"There were and are policyalternatives~ Clint6n and Bush could have sanctioned Russia
by cutting off direct assistance to the Russian government. They could have suspended
Russia from memb~rship in the 0-8. They could have postponed presidential summits.
They :could have offered more htun~nitarian assistance to the region. Even more
dramatically, they could have offeredtheit services as a niediatot~ Theoretically,
Chechenand Russian officials could have met at Camp David in 1995 01'2001 to hammer
btJ,ta political settlement. Hypothetically, they even could have recogni:z;ed the
legitimacy 9ftheelected govenunent of Chechnyaandprovided direct assistance to the
government in exile. " .
Although US foreign tactics and ambitions have varied by region, these approaches of sanctions,
slispensionsand meddling in internal affairs when not invited remain consistent with intrusive
policies which have often afflicted America since the Cold War.
In an epilogue written after a deadly Chechen terrorist attack and hostage seizure at the sold-out
Dubrovka Theater in Moscow on October 23, 2002, McFaul added his bottom-line conclusion
regarding certain cooperative approaches:
"Most dramatically, Bush unambiguously framed his 'war on terrorism' and Putin's 'war
in Checbnya' as part of one common struggle. The real losers of this united front are the
people of Chechnya~"
A debate has emerged whether the U.S. l11issed the chance to prevent the Boston bomhing.
Although evidence will materialize over time and despite the acknowledgement eiU.S.
government officials that a "trust deficit" may have negatively impacted the earlier
investigations, the possibility of prevention might remain a controversy that can never be
18
defmitively solved. However, there is one certainty that cannot be called into question: a more
cooperative U.S.-Russian bil~teral relationship would clearly decrease the risks of such a
potential event, both earlier this month and in the future. In this sens~, the recent tragedy in
Boston could offer a valuable wake-up call for the U.S. government.
Instead of putting in place excessive restrictions on Russian officials as seen in last year's
Magnitskv Act which was reminiscent of the blacklists of the McCarthy era, establishing policies
that instead build links could help to address a range of critical global challenges. 'Yet while
Washington and its representatives sleep on the security front~ other actors are taking matters
into their own hand in other arenas.
Uncle Sam, please do no harm: Alternative forms of diplomacy in an era of gridlock
Last week, a subtle theme penneated the second annual New York Times Energy for Tomorrow
Conference. While on one hand dysfunction in the U.S. federal governtnent has instituted an era
of gridlock, innovative initiatives across the private sector and atthe state andmunicipal1evel of
government have continued to drive forward monumental change in the energy sector. In the
wake of this structural evolution of governance, corporations and local communities have taken
control of their oWn destiny through a diverse array ofrevoilitionary technologies and investment
programs.
In the context of U.S.-Russian relations, a similar example may be seen in the relationship of
Exx.onMohil and Rosneft - the largest oil companies in each of these respective coutitrles.
Through a diverse portfolio of agreements and related ventures, the two leading companies have
continued to move forward on projects in the United States, Russia and beyond. Uncler the
leadership of Igor Sechin, Rosneft's President and Management Board Chainnan? the company
has taken steps to build bridges and advance the interests of both companies.
At an investment conferel1ceorganized by the American Chamber of Commerce in Russia last
week, a former Australiall diplomat named Glenn Waller was the star of the show. As the
President ofExxonMobiI Russia, he offered telling comnlents regarding his company's joint
accomplishments with Rosneft:
."1 was happy to hear from Ambassador McFaul that it has been discussed at the highest
level between presidents. We have very strong support from various levels of the Russian
govetnment."
Consistent with the conClusions of the recent New York Times cometence,Waller;s quote did
not indicate strong support from various levels of the Russian and US governments. A more
active government support of the US businesses community's efforts most espeCially through the
avoidance of efforts that seek to instigate hegemonic change could represent a strong initial
move in that general direction.
The frequently unjustified maltreatment of Russia and its leaders in the US media further
en rains Ion .. standin tendencies toward misunderstanding,· thereby offering a su er-sized cover
19
forequaIly large policy mistakes by the U.S. government. Despite the recent accomplishments
of Igor Sechin,his article for the Time 100 was written by Vladimirtvfilov'- an exceptionally
harsh critic who followed historic precedent in his write-up. In contrast, the Apri129 edition of
Time magazine also included tributes to U.S. President Barack Obamaand the First Lady
MichelleObama by HiI1ary Clinton and 1\1ava Angelou respectively. Reflecting the highest
principles of cronyism rather than democracy, Clinton's future political career rests fumly on the
continued success and popularity of the Obama Administration OVer the next three and a half
years. Meanwhile, Angelou was awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President
Obama in 2011 -the highest civilian award. in the United States and in essence the ultimate pay ..
off.
Reminiscent of McFaul's earlier discussion oftmbridled U.S. power, Angelouirorucally
mentions in her tribute, ~'The philosophers tell us that power corrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely." While no person on this planet is completely free from sin in contrast to
public relations spin, another political philosopher named Alexander Hamilton once iloted, "The
strongest passions, and inost dangerous weaknesses of the hliman breast; ambition, avarice,
vanity, the honorable or venial love offame,are all in conspiracy against the deSire and duty of
peace." Although such failings may have helped enable the terror in Boston, a reevaluation of
ambitions could set the stage fora future peace.
Instead of WOllying about what decisions are made on high, effolts by American business lead~rs
like ExxonMobil to continue establishing bilateral links play an invaluable service to both
countries. While the palatial setting of Spaso House which Dr. McFaul now calls home may
Ulldersta.ndably be a difficult place to acquire new humble perspectives regarding unbridled
power, initial strides in the right ditectioQ.by business can offer further momentum which
eventually changes the tone and'improves the broader bilateral relationship.
BUilding a~leaner ftitqre
Fortunately, the earlier policy alternatives outlined by McFaul were not followed and the
Americanheadmaster did not suspend Russia from the G .. 8 school. To thecontrary,Russia
currently holds the Chair of the more democratic and inclusive G-20. Under the leadership of
President Putin, the Energy Sustainability \Vorkillg Group of the G-20 has takell important steps
in the energy arena including in the area of green growth. The US Government's supportef such
cutting-edge initiatives led by Russia offers a viable means for changing direction and following
in the wake of the Rosneft-ExxonMobil ship.
Characteristically overstepping his realm of responsibility once aga~ Corney recently
pontificatecJ on Russia: "Certainly in my view, the greatest threat of any nation on earth, given
their intention and their capability." This completely unfounded statement reflected a bias from
the former F.B.I. Director that.may have contributed to - or at leastexacetbated -' the
aforementioned misdeeds of the Obama Administration and the 9linton campaign for which he
20
had loyally served as an invaluable sUlTogate.38 Similar baseless aspersions have recently been
· cast against General Flynn as well.39
Running parallel to these longstanding bigoted traditions amongst sornein the Bureau stretching
back to the J. Edgar HooverlMcCarthy~era, the simplistic tactic of cataloging patriotic Americans
as supposed targets for "recruitment" lives on, sadly. An, "unwitting playei in a Russian effort
to gain access in Washington," was a label that Congressman Dana Rohrabacher and I each had
stamped on us once again last Friday by the New York Times. Reflecting a level of
commonsense that often alludes those Who have little or no experience in Russia including many
of those who denigrated him in the article, Congressman Rohrabacher correctly noted: "Any time
you meet a Russian member of their Foreign Ministry or the Russian government, you assume
those people have something to do with Russian intelligence.,,4o To the contrary, the "unwitting"
ones most often consist of those U.S. Government officials who have never enjoyed the
opportunity to establish constructive relationships with any Russian Citizens at any point in their
life.
Felony #2: lllegalleakingojclassijied informatioll surrounding tlte c()l1tpletelYill1just/fied
FISA warrant against me, wlticltfllrther enabledpart of the Clinton(Obamu regime's .
domesticpoliticalintelligetlce operations and influence canzpaign in tlie 2016 election - On
Aprll12, 2017, theWashingtdn Post published an article explaining that unnamed sources had
revealed the completely ~justified F~SA warrant to in:ercegt m?, cdminuni~atio~s throughout
thefirtal months of the reIgn of the ChntonlObama regtU1e. 1 Glven a grOWIng lIst of
· unanswered questions and apparent abuses regarding this nonsensical invasion of privacy, it
seems readily apparent that more revelations about these misdeeds will continue to be learned in
the period to cOlne.42 My legal team and I ate cUtTently busy working on further steps to get to
38 Washington Post Staff, "Full testimony of FBI Director James Corney in which he discusses
Clinton email investigation," Washington Post, May 3, 2017.
[https:llww\v,.washIngtolTpostcom/ne\vs/post-politics/\'vp/20 17/05/03/read-the-full-tcstimolTV~Ortl)
i-d.irector-jallles-coHlcv-in-vvhich-he-discusscs-clinton~email~illvestigationl]
· .39 Gloria Borger, Pamela Brown, lim Sdutto, Marshall Cohen and Eric Lichtbl~u,"First on
CNN: Russlatiofficials bragged they could use Flynn to influence Trump, sources say," CNN,
May 20,2017. [http://edition.cnn.com/20 t 1105/19/potHics/n1.ichaer-nvnn-donald-trunlp-russia~
in f1 uenee!]
40 Matt Apuzzo, Adam Goldman and Mark Mazzetti, "F.B.I. Once Warned .G.O.P.
Congressman That Russian Spies Were RecrQ.iting Him," New YorkTimes,May 19,2017.
Ihttps:J/vvvvvv.nvtil'nes.comJ20 17 /05/19/us/politics/dana-l'ohrabacher-russia~spies~htnlI]
1 Ellen Nakashima, Devlin Barrett and Adam Bntous, "FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor
Trump adviser Carter Pagel! Washington Post~ Apri112, 2017.
[https:l/ww\.y,v.,rashingtonposi.com!vvorld/natiQnaI-sccurity/fbi~obtained-t1sa~\vtlrrtml-to-n10nitorfbrmer~
trul1lp-adviser-carlCr-pagc/20' 7/04/ I ]/6/01 92ea-J eOc- I ] e7-ad74-
]H742a6e93a7 storv.html]
42 . Senator Charles E. Grassley, "Grassley Seeks Explanation for FBI's Inconsistent Info in
Dossier Inquiry: Bureau's Scant Responses to Judiciary Probe Raise More Questions on Steele
21
the bottom of-this abuse. I am highly confident that this expected disclosure will help facilitate a
highly productive discussion when we meet next month.
In sutnmary, theproblern.s that have unfortunately been created in U.S.-Russia relations over the
course of many decades and acrOss presidential administrations from both parties have severely
limited the ability of me as well as inany Americans to be apositive force for change thus far.
It is my hope that a logical conclusion to your. current process based on actual facts, including the
reality that I have never done anything wrong in Russia or with any Russian person,might
help to. turn this increasingly dangerous tide between our two countries. This has been a primary
personal objective since my first trip to Moscow as a U!S. Naval Academy Midshipman in Jooe
1991. It remains one of my primary obj ectives today, even though I have been completely
demonized and indeed slandered literally around the world by the Clinton campaign due to my
voicing highlybeuign yet realistic political and policy views.
The story of the 2016 election was to a large extent a battle between powerful political and
business interests on an epic scale vs. average citizens who simply want to honestly see
improvements in this country. It is unfortunate that a small fish like me has been harassed by
other members of Congress primarily in response to completely false allegations from a dossier
that is 100% Inaccurate in every way as· it relates to me. This is particularly frustrating given the
severe civil rights violations committed against me and which the Senate Judiciary is looking
into.
In contrast, the thoughtful framework for analysis set by HPSCI follows a more serious tradition
of analysis in the House of Representatives that I observed in a prior era. As a First Class
Midshipman at the U.S. Naval Academy, I was a Research Fellow with the House Armed
Services Committee from September 1992 Ul1til May 1993 as part of my TridentScholar project
I proudly serv~d under the leadership of the late Chairmatl, Congressman Les Aspin, Ph.D~, who
first ran for Congress as a peace candidate in 1970 in opposition to the Vietn~ War. Given the
prinoiples of serious, data~driven, unbiased analysis that I watched Congressman Aspin maintain
ill his painstaking work ·with the HASe were a lifelong inspiration to me then. 1 hope that the
facts Iean provide to yom COnimittee will help you continue these samehighet research
standards once again. .
My only reason forever wanting to get iIlvo1vedas a simple unpaid volunteer with the Donald 1.
Trump for President campaign is that I have a longstanding passionate interest in foreign policy
and strongly believed that our new President would help fix the problems that have negatively
impacted U.S. national security over recent decades since the end of the first Cold War. Itwas
also a key driver of mine in going to the U.S. Naval Academy, the reason I got my Ph.D. part
time while working as a banker in London, the reason I got a fellowship at the Council on
Foreign Relations to study these policy issues, why I spent my nights at Georgetown studying for
my Masters in National Security while I worked as an Arms Control Action Officer in the
Pentagon and the same reason I spent 6 years as a Fellow·at the Center for National Policy in
ties," April 28, 2017. 01ttps:I!W\v,\v,grasslev.senatc.gov!ncws/news-rclcascs!grasslev-seeksexplanation-
Jbi's-incol1sistent-info-dossier-inquirv]
22
\VashingtOIl, also in my free time. I can linderstand that this continu.ed inquiry stems from
completely false allegations by transnational aSsociates of the Clinton camp~gn who interfered
with OlIT democracy. But I appreciate your invitation. to have a conversation onthese matters in
open.session of your Committee to get to the bottom oftbis in a timely and sensible matiner.
Thank you again for allowing me to contribute to this process of restoring the integrity of the
U.S. intelligence community. I look forward to meeting \vith you in the coming weeks foiIowing
the release of the contents afmy illegitimate FISA warrant.
carter Page, Ph.D.
23
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: In this letter, you indicated that you were not in possession of
any responsive documents.
4
The committee scheduled a voluntary interview with you on June 4th, 2017, but the
interview was postponed at the request of the minority.
The committee issued a subpoena to you on October 4th, 2017, directing the
production of documents reasonably believed to be in your possession and your
subsequent testimony.
On October 10th of 2017, the committee received a letter from you in which you
indicated your intention to invoke your Fifth Amendment privilege to not testify .
. Without objection, a copy of that letter shall be included in the record.
[The information follows:]
******** INSERT 1-2 ********
UNCLASSIFIED
GLOBAL ENERGY CAPITAL LLC
BY ELECTRONIC MAIL AND FIRST CLASS MAIL
The Honorable Robert S. Mueller III
Special Counsel
U.S. Department of Justice
950 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W~
Washington, DC 20530
The Honorable Richard Burr and Mark Warner
U.S. Senate Select.Committee on Intelligence (SSeI)
211 Hart Senate Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20510
The Honorable Devin Nunes, K. Michael Conaway and Adam Schiff
U.S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (HPSCI)
Capitol Visitor Center HVC-304
US Capitol Building
Washington, DC 20515
October 10,2017
Subject: Response to your indirect and direct data requests and testimony invitations
Dear Special Counsel Mueller, Senator Burr, Senator Warner, Congressman Nunes,
Congressman Conaway and Congressman Schiff:
In the 225-year history since our Constitution's Bill of Rights was ratified on December 15,
.1791, no common law precedent has existed for Article I or. Article II institutions to request that
an individual or their advisors compile massive quantities of irrelevant data or provide testimony
after that individual had already been illegally wiretapped based on false evidence and the
felonious disclosure of information regarding such an unlawful search had previously been made
available to the public. In the wake of last year's extreme obstruction of justice that allegedly
occurred in the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, I am writing to inform you that it is
my Intention to exercise the Constitutional protections offered by the privileges of the Fifth
Amendment. Whereas the historic civil rights abuses committed against me have verifiably'
represented a witch hunt first aimed directly at myself since the very beginning of these
illegitimate efforts by U.S. Federal agencies, the Congress and media adversaries of Mr. Donald
1. Trump to illicitly influence the U.S. Presidential election through outrageous false information
in the months leading up to November 8,2016\ initially during his campaign as a candidate and
Michael Isikoff, "U.S. intel officials probe ties between Trump adviser and Kremlin," Yahoo
News, September 23, 2016. [.bUps:/ /vvww. yahoo .com/news/u-s-inte1-officials-probe-tiesbetween-
tn1U1p-adviser-and-kremlin-175046002.htn11]; "Report: U.S. Intelligence Officials
Examining Trump Adviser's Russia Ties," Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, September 24,
2016. [http://www.rferI.org/aJreport-us-intel1igence-probes-t.rUlTIp-advisers-russia-ties-
590 Madison Avenue, 21st noor, New York, New York 10022
t: +lq12) 5379258 f: +1(212) 537 9281
continuing more recently during the start of his term as the President of the United States, I also
intend to take legal action to quash any related subpoenas and requests which may be directed at
my advisors and other colleagues of mine. As I have told representatives of your respective
organizations on countless occasions throughout many hours of voluntary discussions and as
further demonstrated through hundreds of pages of supporting correspondence, I have never had
any direct discussions, phone conversations, email correspondence, or face-to-face
communications with President Trump at any point in my life.· I have also never done anything
illegal in Russia or amidst my activities related to Russia since my first visit to Moscow as a U.S.
Naval Academy Midshipman in June 1991. Thus, this ongoing investigative clean-up attempt
and effort to find anything to further tarnish my name as a way of partially repairing the severe
damage to our democracy that the Dodgy Dossier represented in 2016 now continues to violate
every conceivable safeguard of due process guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution.
I made an appeal to the U.S. Department of Justice, the FBI and the NSA 142-days ago on May
21, 2017, requesting that information, applications and other materials related to my illegitimate
FISA warrant be expeditiously disclosed? Despite multiple subsequent requests to the U.S.
Departmerit of Justice to expedite this disclosure both by myself as well as distinguished leaders
of the U.S. Senate3 over the months since, no information has been provided as of today. By
defmition, it is impossible to match the technological and data processing capabilities of the
multiple U.S. federal agencies that illegitimately attempted to influence the 2016 election
through their alleged surveillance and associated misinformation campaigns against me. As a
result, and despite my having already voluntarily provided extensive personal information to
representatives of each of your respective organizations, the parallel, exceptionally broad
requests made by your Office and Committees could create more inherent risks given my
infinitely more limited personal data processing capability as compared to the U.S. Government.
In addition to other associated considerations, these risks include continued injury of both the
judicial and extrajudicial variety in keeping with the precedent of highly damaging, illicit
information disclosures as I have experienced throughout the past year.
My latest understanding of the multidirectional legal attack that your respective organizations
have continued to unnecessarily wage against myself and my colleagues is that you now have
k[£In!illi.Z_~QlQ_QQ_~_:JltmJJ; Harry Reid letter to James Comey, August 27,2016.
b!Jps://ass_ets.docu~neQ1fJQyd.OIg/do£!:!m.el~ts/3035_~44/Rei.9-Letter-to-C9l!1...9Y...:.12f1f
2 In response to the April 11, 2017 Washington Post report that, "The FBI obtained a secret
court order last summer to monitor the communications of an adviser t6 presidential candidate
Donald Trump, part of an investigation into possible links between Russia and the campaign, law
enforcement and other U.S. officials said. The FBI and the Justice Department obtained the
warrant targeting Carter Page's communications after convincing a Foreign Intelligence
Surveillance Court judge that there was probable cause to believe Page was acting as an agent of
a foreign power, in this case Russia, according to the officials." See Ellen Nakashima, Devlin
Barrett and Adam Entous, FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor Trump adviser Carter Page,
Washington Post [available at http://wapo.stl2pr7kpE ].
3 For example: https://\Vw\v.judiciary.senate.gov/in1o/rnediaJdoc/20 17 -06-
27~)20CEG%20LOG%20to~~20DOJ%20FBT%20(proposed%20and%20finalo/020FISA 0/02 0 appli
cations). pei:f
2
interest in the reason why my fIrm Global Energy Capital LLC and I personally have not
reported any revenue related to Russia throughout the past several years. In the world of
international investments, complex emerging market transactions and jurisdictions have been
known to require in excess of ten years to recognize a profit as has been seen in the work of
some U.S.-based investment firms in Argentina, for example.4 While I have also been working
diligently as an international political economy scholar and investment professional on other
matters worldwide over the past nine years until defamatory media reports and the ongoing witch
hunt ruthlessly disrupted my life, please be informed that I have predominantly been living on
my life savings throughout this period. .
In terms of other relev~nt legal precedent, the ongoing civil rights abuses that I have continued to
be subjected to are closely equivalent to the illegal COINTELPRO (COunter INTELligence
PROgram) projects conducted by the FBI aimed at surveilling, infiltrating, discrediting, and
disrupting the peaceful activities of another anti-war scholar, Martin Luther King, Ph.D.s While
I have otherwise received little protection or support in my efforts to get to the truth about the
crimes committed against me and our democracy, with the exception of the brave actions of
Senator Grassley and other members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, my ongoing civil
actions in the U.S. District Court of the Southern District of New York6 should eventually help to
gain additional belated discovery regarding more relevant activities that influenced the 2016 U.S.
election, including those taken by agencies of the U.S. Government and private sector forces that
have made efforts to harm myself and the Trump movement.
In Ashcroft v. Iqbal, 556 U.S. 662,679 (2009), the Supreme Court held that, " ... to state a claim
based on a violation of a clearly established right, respondent must plead sufficient factual matter
to show that petitioners adopted and implemented ... policies at issue not for a neutral,
investigative reason but for the purpose of discriminating ... " While the petitioners referenced by
Justice Kennedy in that 2009 case were individuals of high moral integrity and professionalism,
the ever increasing amount of factual matter that has continued to become available through
ongoing legal and illegal disclosures have shown a clear pattern of discrimination and related
illicit activities by the U.S. Government in 2016 against myself as an unpaid, informal supporter
of the Trump Movement.
I have already been subjected to extreme levels of extrajudicial punishment consistent with the
patterns of a police state based on the felonious leaks related to the falsehoods stemming from
the Dodgy Dossier as well as my illegitimate FISA warrants, in the form of domestic terrorist
4 Katia Porzecanski, Charlie Devereux, and Bob Van Voris, "Paul Singer Cuts Deal With
Argentina After Ugly, IS-Year Dispute," Bloomberg February 29,2016.
https:/hN\\T\v.bloolnberg.cOlnJnews/articles/2016-02-29/argentina-reaches-4-65-billion-deal-withluain-
holdouts Tim R. Samples, "Rogue Trends in Sovereign Debt: Argentina, Vulture Funds,
and Pari Passu under New York Law," 35 Northwestern Journal of International Law &
Business, 49, 86. (2014)
S Natsu Taylor Saito, "Whose Liberty - Whose Security - The USA PATRIOT Act in the
Context of COIN TEL PRO and the Unlawful Repression of Political Dissent," 81 Oregon Law
Review, 1051, 1132. (2002)
6 Carter Page v. Oath Inc., and Broadcasting Board of Governors, SDNY, 17-cv-06990.
3
threats and other severe costs to myself and innocent people whomI am close to. I plan to
continue to take the necessary steps within my power as a private citizen to resolve these
unprecedented injustices.
Although I also hereby decline the direct and iIfdirect requests for closed-door meetings \vith
your respective organizations based on my Fifth Amendment rights and the considerations
directly related· to the multiple civil rights abuses cited, supra, I would be happy to help in any
way that I can to inform the public through transparent disclosure regarding what really
happened in terms of government influence on the 2016 election. \Vith all due respect to the
Congressional Intelligence Committees, there has been a complete double-standard in that people
loyal to the Clinton-Ohama team such as Mr. Clapper, :tvfr. Corney and :tvrr. Brennan have
frequently been allowed to provide highly damaging testimony in public against myself and
others, \yh~le those of us who \vere falsely accused continue to be damaged by being stuck in
closed-door sessions like criminals undergoing secret interrogation. Given the close ties that
Facebook has \vith the Clinton and Obama teams7
, I would be happy to offer balance at SSCI's
upcoming proceedings on November 1, 20178 by providing more relevant perspectives regarding
how U.S. state-sponsored and private media organizations used their platforms to spread
misinformation in attempts to influence the 2016 election. \Vhereas the few hundred-thousand
dollars of alleged social media ads reported thus far are minor in comparison to the hundreds of
millions or billions of dollars of advertising revenues earned on the back of the fake ne\vs stories
about me prior to the election, I believe my perspectives could prove invaluable to SSCI's
forthcoming debate.
Carter Page, Ph.D.
"Found: Election collusion b~t\veen Facebook and Hillary - \VND.com," September 29,2017.
http://\v\\,\v.\vnd,cOlnJ20 17!09/found-election-collusion-between-facebook-811d-hillaryl
8 Katie Bo \Villiams and Ali Breland, "Senate panel invites Facebook, Google to testify in
Russia probe," The Hill, September 27,2017. http://thehill.com/homellews!senate!352743-
senate-panel-iDvl tes-facebook -to-testi fv
4
5
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: Following further discussions} we agreed that you would testify
in this setting} and we appreciate you being here today.
Dr. Page} questions during today's hearing may seem basic to you} but that is
because we need to clearly establish facts relevant to our investigation. Please do not
assume we know any facts that you have previously disclosed as any part of any other
interview or review.
We ask that you give complete and fulsome replies to your questions} based on
your best recollection. If a question is unclear or you are uncertain in your response}
please let us know. If you do not know the answer to a question or cannot remember}
simply say so. If you need a break} please let us know.
Asyou know} this hearing will be transcribed. There is a reporter making a record
of these proceedings so we can easily consult a written compilation of your answers.
Because the reporter cannot record gestures} we ask that you answer verbally. If you
forget to do this} we may remind you to do so. You may be asked to spell certain terms or
unusual phrases.
You are entitled to a lawyer to be present for this interview} though you are not
required to do so. And I see that you do not have counsel today. Are you currently
represented by counsel?
MR. PAGE: Not for this matter.
MR. CONAWAY: Thank you.
As a reminder} the record will reflect that you have been compelled to testify.
Objections by you to any questions posed by members must be stated concisely and in a
nonargumentative manner. If you raise an objection} the hearing will proceed. The
testimony taken is subject to any objection.
UNCLASSIFIED
6
UNCLASSIFIED
As clearly stated in the subpoena issued to you on October 4th, you may refuse to
answer a question only to preserve a testimonial privilege.
Finally, you are reminded that you are providing testimony under oath and that it is
unlawful to deliberately provide false information to Members of Congress or our staff.
Before we proceed, we would like to have your opening statement and -- or before
we proceed with your opening statement, I'll ask the ranking member for any comments
that he might like to make.
Adam.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you,Mr. Chairman. I donlt have any opening comments at
this time. I look forward to the hearing.
MR. CONAWAY: All right, thank you.
Dr. Page, you are able to make an opening statement limited to 5 minutes, sir.
UNCLASSIFIED
7
UNCLASSIFIED
TESTIMONY OF CARTER PAGE, PH.D.
MR. PAGE: Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the historic impact of big
money opposition political research operations on the U.S. Intelligence Community over
the past 14 months. As the American public has now learned, these epic fictitious stories
primarily stemmed from the momentous world premiere of opposition political research
from the dodgy dossier which maliciously attacked me and the Trump campaign in the final
weeks preceding last year's election.
Despite many illicit activities of the U.S. Government, clandestine political
operatives, and some media outlets that effectively misled American voters in 2016, our
country is fortunate that these outrageous fictional stories did not sufficiently reshape the
outcome of last year's election in the ways originally intended. But millions of taxpayer
dollars and extraordinary amounts of time have subsequently been wasted by HPSCI and
other congressional committees in the unwitting response to lies from plutocrat-funded
opposition political research consultants, in parallel with one of the worst intelligence
failures in American history.
In 2016, the new power of internet-enabled traditionallC propaganda tactics
spread to the homeland for the first time in a Presidential election. In light of these
attacks ag'ainst our democracy, a more strategic consideration of how the IC might adapt to
prevent future disasters is urgently required. I hope that the lessons from the
extraordinary damage suffered by the Trump campaign and myself may help America avoid
future domestic attacks on our fundamental democratic principles and constitutional
foundation.
The two core themes of the politically biased intelligence report of January 6th,
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
2017, offer a valuable framework for analysis of the U.S. Government's own efforts to
influence the 2016 election and undermine our country's liberal democratic order.
8
First, the alleged U.S. cyber operations of wiretap against myself, as a previously
unknown private citizen who volunteered as an informal, unpaid member of an early
foreign policy advisory committee with the Trump campaign, marked a new low with this
baseless domestic interference in our democracy prior to the 2016 election.
Your full committee and I do not yet entirely know the details about how I was
illegally hacked and wiretapped, but we should learn that soon, given the impending
expected fulfillment of related outstanding requests from Congress and myself.
Second, and in the interim, while these illicit domestic hacking activities remain
undisclosed, what we do know for sure relates to the other theme of the politically
motivated intelligence report from January 6th: The role of U.S. Government agencies,
state-funded media, third-party intermediaries, and paid media users or trolls that are
antithetical to the foundations of a properly functioning democratic society.
The Senate has held various superfluous hearings this week with social media
companies, but, as Senator Lindsey Graham correctly noted, domestic media assets can be
used by terrorists to recruit in cyberworld people to their cause.
This is precisely what occurred in the wake of the dodgy dossier. Following a
familiar pattern that first began in September 2016, in the final months before last year's
election, within hours of dodgy dossier recitals by members of this committee on March 20
into the congreSSional record and on national television regarding the fabricated fairy tales
about my alleged negotiations with Rosneft's CEO, a person whom I have never met at any
point in my life, I received even more threats.
In the interest of time and to avoid further shocking drama today, I ask that this
transcript-and my full statement be submitted for the record. It's ironic that many U.S.
UNCLASSIFIED
9
UNCLASSIFIED
Senators have criticized private sector companies for passively allowing a few hundred
thousand dollars of social media advertisements that virtually no one paid attention to,
while many of these same legislators and other Members of Congress themselves
authorized over $108 million to fund the first domestic propaganda operation in U.S.
Presidential campaign history, which broadcast the false allegations of the dodgy dossier to
the American electorate. Even more shocking is how this misuse of taxpayer dollars
supplemented the illicit activities of large private media organizations and their executives
to deceive U.S. voters, several of whom had themselves sponsored these same opposition
political activities by Mr. Steele in the first place. Worse yet, many of these same political
donors have also actively supported prominent Members of Congress.
Whereas my name was so thoroughly tarnished during your committee's March 20,
2017, discussion with James Comey about the dodgy dossier on national television, in lieu
of an essential requisite reintroduction of who I am and as a necessary belated correction
of the record, I also request in the interest of time that my short biography be submitted
for the record as per the attached exhibit included with this opening statement.
In retrospect, the deference that the FBI and CIA allegedly accorded the
DNC-funded dodgy dossier prepared by opposition research consultant Christopher Steele,
who apparently hasn't stepped foot in Russia for many years, reveals either, A, a shocking
collective ignorance of Russia and how Russia operates in the modern era; B, a politically,
highly political biased agenda that dangerously violates the legal mandate of the U.S.
Government agencies; or, C, all of the above. I'm sorry.
[The statement of Mr. Page follows:]
******** INSERT 1-3 ********
UNCLASSIFIED
Testimony of Carter Page, Ph.D.
Full Committee Hearing
U.S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence ("HPSCI")
0900, Thursday, November 2, 2017
I
II
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss the historic impact of big-money opposition political
research operations on the U.S. Intelligence Community ("Ie") over the past 14-months. As the
American public has now learned, these epic, fictitious stories primarily stemmed from the
momentous world premierei of opposition political research from the Dodgy Dossierii which
maliciously attacked me and the Trump campaign in the final weeks preceding last year's
election. Despite many illicit activiti~s of the U.S. Government, clandestine foreign political
operatives and some media outlets that effectively misled American voters in 2016, our country
is fortunate that these outrageous fictional stories did not sufficiently reshape the outcome of last
year's election in the ways originally intended. But millions of taxpayer dollars and
extraordinary amounts of time have subsequently been wasted by HPSCI and other
Congressional Committees in the unwitting response to lies from plutocrat-funded opposition
political research consultants, in parallel with one of the worst intelligence failures in American
history. In 2016, the new power of internet-enabled traditional IC propaganda tactics spread to
the homeland for the first time in ~ presidential election. iii In light of these attacks against our
democracy, a more strategic consideration of how the IC might adapt to prevent future disasters
is urgently required. I hope that the lessons from the extraordinary damage suffered by the
Trump campaign and myself may help America avoid future domestic attacks on our
fundamental democratic principles and Constitutional foundation.
The two core themes of the politically-biased intelligence report of January 6, 210iv offer a
valuable framework for analysis of the U.S. Government's own efforts to influence the 2016
presidential election and undermine our country's liberal democratic order. First, the alleged
U.S. cyber operations and wiretap against myself" as a previously unknown, private citizen who
volunteered as an informal, unpaid member of an early foreign policy advisory committee of the
Trump campaign marked a new low with this baseless domestic interference in our democracy
prior to the 2016 election. Your full Committee and I do not yet entirely know the details about
how I was illegally hacked and wiretapped, but we should learn that soon given the impending
expected fulfillment of related outstanding requests from Congress vi and myself. vii
Second, and in the interim while these illicit domestic hacking activities remain undisclosed,
what we do know for sure relates to the other general theme of the politically-motivated
intelligence report from January 6: the role of U.S. Government agencies, state-funded media,
third-party intermediaries, and paid media users or "trolls" that are antithetical to the foundations
of a properly functioning democratic society. The Senate has held various superfluous hearings
this week with social media companies but as Senator Lindsey Graham correctly noted, domestic
media assets can be "used by terrorists to recruit in cyberworld people to their cause".viii This is
precisely what occurred in the wake of the Dodgy Dossier.ix Following a familiar pattern that
first began in September 2016 in the final months before last year's election, within hours of
Dodgy Dossier recitals by members of this Committee on March 20 into the Congressional
Record and on national television regarding the fabricated fairytales about my alleged
negotiations with Rosneft's CEO, a person whom I have never met at any point in my life, I
. '
"
received even more threats. In the interest of time and to avoid further shocking drama today, I
ask that this transcript and my full statement be submitted for the Record. x
It is ironic that many U.S. Senators have criticized private sector companies for passively
allowing a few hundred thousand dollars of social media advertisements that virtually no one
paid attention to, while many of these same legislators and other members of Congress
themselves authorized over $108 million dollars to fund the first domestic propaganda operation
in U.S. presidential campaign history which broadcast the false allegations of the DodgyDossier
to the American electorate.xi Even more shocking is how this misuse of taxpayer dollars'
supplemented the illicit activities of large private media organizations and their executives to
deceive U.S. votersxii, several of whom had themselves sponsored these same opposition political
research activities by Mr. Steele in the first place. Wor~e yet, many of those same political
donors have also actively sponsored prominent members of Congress.
Whereas my name was so thoroughly tarnished during your Committee's March 20,2017'
discussion with James Corney about the Dodgy Dossier on national television, in lieu of an
essential requisite reintroduction of who I am and as a necessary belated correction of the
Record, I also request in the interest of time that my short biography be submitted for the Record
as per the attached Exhibit, included with this opening statement.
In retrospect, the deference that the FBI and CIA allegedly accorded the DNC-funded Dodgy
Dossier prepared by opposition research consultant Christopher Steele who apparently hasn't
stepped foot in Russia for many years reveals either:
(A) a shocking collective ignorance of Russia and how Russia operates in th.e modem era,
(B) a highly-politically, biased agenda that dangerously violates the legal mandate of these
U.S. government agencies, or
(C) all of the above.
Given recent revelationsxiii that continue to drip out, it now appears increasingly likely that (C),
all of the above, is the case. This should be truly alarming, particularly to members of HPSCI
given your Committee's oversight responsibilities.
On a more fundamental level, far deeper failures of the IC's largely consistent, traditional
assessments regarding Russia stretch back long before the start of the Trump campaign in June
2015. Instead, it extends throughout the entirety of this institution's historyXiV as Daniel Patrick
Moynihan, Ph.D. once astutely notedXV, speaking in part from insights gained during his term as
the Vice Chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee.xvi Given the geopolitical stakes
worldwide today, a more accurate standard of intelligence assessments particularly as it relates to
Russia is now urgently required. Although Senator Moynihan's efforts towards achieving
necessary reform stalled at the end of the first Cold Warxvi\ his poignant advice certainly applies
now more than ever given where our great country finds itself today in the wake of last year's
. unprecedented abuses in this capital city.
Following many disasters precipitated overseas by the IC in the Middle EastXViii; Asiaxix, AfricaxX,
Latin Americaxxi and beyond throughout its history, the recent embarrassments that the Dodgy
Dossier helped create for our great country here at home carried extraordinary damage for many
average American citizens such as myself, including human rights violations, domestic terrorist
threats and efforts to undercut our democracy in 2016. I look forward to discussing these lessons
learned with you in the hours and months to come. The fundamental reshaping of the U.S.
intelligence apparatus is long overdue and last year's attacks against our democracy from
Washington offer the perfect opportunity to belatedly embark upon this process that myoId boss
Senator Moynihan once wisely suggested over a quarter-century ago.
Exhibit:
Reintroduction of Carter Page, Ph.D., to the
U.S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence,
following the extensive misinformation presented at the March 20, 2017
Open Hearing based on the Dodgy Dossier
Biography of Dr. Carter W. Page
Carter Page is Founder and Managing Partner of Global Energy Capital LLC, a New York-based
financial institution focused primarily on energy investments in developing markets. From 2010
to 2016, he previously served as a Fellow at the Center for National Policy in Washington where
he wrote on energy and foreign policy issues. He has lectured extensively worldwide and his
past teaching experience includes service as an Adjunct Assistant Professor in the Center for
Global Affairs at New York University.
In early 2016, he volunteered as an informal, unpaid member of an early Trump campaign
foreign policy committee. This committee met once with then-candidate Trump on March, 31,
2016; a meeting that Dr. Page did not have the opportunity to attend because he was previously
scheduled to meet with senior U.S. military leaders far from Washington that day. He was never
paid any money by the Trump campaign and he has never made any financial contributions to
any politician since supporting fellow-Annapolis graduate John McCain's 2008 Presidential
campaign. He never was asked to obtain nor was he provided negative information about
anyone, including Mrs. Hillary Clinton, by any Russian person or entity". Notwithstanding these
facts that the FBI absolutely knew, they allegedly obtained a FISA warrant to hack his computer
and listen to every communication he made on a daily basis.
He is the former Chief Operating Officer of the Energy & Power Group at Merrill Lynch. Until
July 2007, he was Deputy Branch Manager of the bank's representative office in Moscow which
he helped open in 2004. As an investment banker in Russia, he previously advised on a range of
strategic and financing transactions in the energy and power sector.
Carter is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations, where he was a former International
Affairs Fellow and Co-Director of the Council's study group on the Caspian Sea region from
1998 to 1999. In this capacity, he conducted research on economic and investment policy in the
former Soviet Union and the Middle East.
In addition to multiple tours in the Middle East and Europe as a U.S. Navy surface warfare
officer, Carter previously served as the Navy's working group representative for nuclear
nonproliferation policy issues in the Pentagon where he focused in part on negotiations with
Russia. During this time, he drafted U.S. Navy positions concerning ongoing diplomatic
negotiations and conducted comprehensive reviews of treaties, U.N. resolutions and Presidential
Decision Directives. He briefed senior Navy officials regarding arms control and nuclear
proliferation developments globally, including a special emphasis on Europe, Korea, and the
Middle East. He also initiated and led weekly meetings of Service and Joint Staff action officers
following the Navy's selection as lead service for an issue team during an in-depth Department
of Defense strategic counterproliferation review.
Since resigning from the U.S. Navy in 1998, he has worked in the private sector on commercial
transactions as well as in academia. At no point in his life has he ever worked as an agent of any
foreign government, either directly or indirectly.
Carter graduated with Distinction from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1993, where he was a Trident
Scholar and a Political Science Honors Major. He holds an M.A. in National Security Studies
from Georgetown University (1994), an M.B.A. from New York University's Stem School of
Business (2001), and a Ph.D. from the University of London's School of Oriental and African
Studies (2012).
Carter Page received his nomination to Annapolis from the late Congressman Hamilton Fish IV
of New York in 1988.
https://wvvw.facebook.comllogin.plip?skip.api login=l&api key=966242223397117&signed n
ext=1&next=https%3A%2F{Yo2Fwvvvv.facebookcorn<}o2Fsharer.php%3Fu~'03Dhttps%253A{Yo25
2P%252Fwww.rferl.org%252Fa%252Freport-us-intel1igence-probes-tl1.lnlp-advisers-russia-tieskrenllin{
Yo252F28010062.htnl1&cancel ur1=https%3Ao/r}2F%2Fv/ww.facebook.como/r)2Fdialog%
2Freturn%2Fclose%3Ferror code%3D4201 %26error message%3DUser%,2Bcanceled%2Bthe%
2BDialogo/c)2Bflow%23 %3D &display=popup&locale=en. US
https://twitter.com/intentitweet?text=Report%3A%20U.S. %20Intelligence{Vo200fficials%20Exa
mining%20Trunlp%20Adviser%27s%20Russia%20Ties&url=https%3A{Yo2F%2Fw\vw.rfer1.org
%2Fa%2Freport-us-intelligence-probes-trump-advisers-ru8sia-tie8- ,
kremlin%2F28 0 1 0062.html&original referer=h ttP8o/r) 3 A %l2F%2Fvvw\v.rfer1.org~o2Fa%2Freport
-us-intelligence-probes-tnllllp-advisers-russia-ties-kremlin%2F28010062.html
https://oauth.vk.com/authorize?client id=-
l&redirect uri=https%3A%2F%2Fvk.col11(Yo2Fshare.php%3Furl%3Dhttps%253a'%252f'%252fw
ww.rfer1.org%252fa%252freport-us-intelligence-probes-trulllp-advisers-russia-tieskrenl1in%
252f280 1 0062.html&display=widget .
https://accounts.google.colll/signin/v2/identifier?service=oz&passive=1209600&continue=https
o/~3A%2F%2Fplus.google.col11%2Fup%2F%3Fcontinue%3Dhttps%3A%2F%2Fplus.googie.c0111
<j~2Fshare%3Fur1%253Dhttps%3A%2F~;Q2Fwww.rfer1.org%2Fa%2Freport-u8-intelligenceprobes-
trump-advisers-russia-tieskrellllil1~}
2F28010062.htllll%26gpsrc%3DgplpO&flowNatlle=Gli:f\VebSignln&flowEntry=Servi
ceLogin
x Transcript of threat received on March 2o"~ "2017 following the House Intelligence
Committee's Open Hearing with James Corney regarding the false allegations from the Dodgy
Dossier: "Yo, what's up man? Sounds like things are going pretty fucking good for you. Go to·
trade out your fucking country for some fucking Russian dollars. We know what the fuck
you've been doing, you piece of shit mother fucker. You think you're not, you know you're not
in fucking in cahoots with fucking Rosneft and every fucking Russian oligarch over there? You
fucking half-wit, fucking piece of shit. You deserve everything you fucking get. Every fucking
thing you get. If it was up to me, after we fucking tried you for treason, we'd take you out in the
street and beat the fucking piss out of you with baseball bats, you cock sucking mother fucker.
Next time you turn your back on your fucking country, you'll fucking regret it."
xi According to a May 2017 U.S. Department of State Office of Inspector General inspection,
RFE had an approximate annual budget in FY 2016 of $108,414,000. U.S. Department of State
Office of Inspector General, "Inspection of Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty," May 2017.
[https://oig.state.gov/systemlfiles/isp-ib-17-21.pd~J See also:
https://vvw\v.bbg.gov/networks/rferl/
xii See also another subsequent broadcast of Dodgy Dossier lies to American voters by U.S.
state-sponsored propaganda outlets, 2 days before the 20 i 6 election: "Another adviser, Carter
Page, reportedly met with top Kremlin officials including those under U. S. sanctions." Mike
Eckel, "Reset To Overload: Russia-U.S. Ties Have Changed, No Matter Who Wins The
Election," Radio Free Europe / Radio Liberty, November 6,2016. [http://wvv'\v.rfer1.org/a/u-selectiol1-
tnln1p-clinton-relatiol1s-nlssia/281 00058.html]
xiii Adam Entous, Devlin Barrett, and Rosalind Helderman, "Clinton campaign, DNC paid for
research that led to Russia dossier," Washington Post, October 24,2017.
[https:llvvwvv.vvashingtonpost.comlworldlnational-security/clinton-campaign-dnc-paid-'forresearch-
that-led-to-russia-dossier/20 17/1. O/24/226fabfD-b8e4-11 e7 -a908-
a3470754bbb9 stO.ly.htnl1] Kenneth P. Vogel and Maggie Haberman, "Conservative Website
First Funded Anti-Trump Research by Firm That Later Produced Dossier, New York Times,
October 27, 2017. [https:llwww.nytimes.con1l20171l0/27/us/politics/trunlp-dossier-paulsinger.
html] .
xiv Tim Weiner, Legacy 0/ Ashes: The History o/the CIA, New York: Doubleday, 2007.
xv Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "Do We Still Need the C.I.A.?", New York Times, May 19, 1991.
xvi Daniel Patrick Moynihan, "The Peace Dividend," New York Review o/Books, J~e 28,
1990.
[http://www.nybooks.cO.ln/artic1esIl990/06/28/the-peace-dividendl] Daniel Patrick Moynihan,
Pandaemonium: Ethnicity in International Politics, Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1993.
xvii F or example, "Title III: Unification of United States Diplomacy - Requires the transfer to
the Secretary of State of all the functions, powers, and duties of the Central Intelligence Agency
(CIA) ... " See "S.236 - End of the Cold War Act of 1991," Sponsor: Sen. Daniel Patrick
Moynihan [D-NY], 102nd Congress, January 17, 1991. [https:llwww.congress.govibil1Jl02ndcongress/
senate-bill/23 6]
xviii Robert L. Jervis, Why Intelligence Fails: Lessonsfrom the Iranian Revolution and the Iraq
War, 1st Edition, Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 2011.
xix "'Ifyou'knew how much we spend and how much money we'waste in this area, it would
knock you off your chair. It's criminal!' - Senator Allen Ellender commenting on United States
intelligence activities in 1971." See "The CIA's Secret Funding and the Constitution," Yale Law
Journal, Vol. 84, Issue 3, January 1975, pp. 608-636.
"I am a retired CIA officer who earned numerous awards and medals including the prestigious
career intelligence medal. During my last ten years with the CIA I protected its false information
on Vietnam. The deficiencies that created the Vietnam War permeate CIA operations and I felt
an imperative to tell this to the American people and wrote a book about my experiences ... " See
Ralph W. McGehee, "CIA: Ignorance Is Strength," Bill o/Rights Journal, Vol. 16, 1983, pp. 29-
33.
Vietnam Veterans American v. Central Intelligence Agency, U.S. Court of Appeals for the 9th
Circuit, January 26, 2016.
xx Adeno Addis, "International Propaganda and Developing Countries," Vanderbilt Journal 0/
Transnational Law, Vol. 21, Issue 3, 1988, pp. 491 ... 548.
xxi Jim Rasenberger, The Brilliant Disaster: JFK, Castro, and America's Doomed Invasion 0/
Cuba's Bay o/Pigs, New York: Scribner, 2011.
Notes:
"Report: U.S. Intelligence Officials Examining Trump Adviser's Russia Ties," Radio Free
Europe 1 Radio Liberty, 03:55 GMT, September 24,2016. [http://w\vw.rferLorg/aireport-usintelligence-
probes-trump-advisers-russia-ties-kretnlin/2801. 0062.ht1111] Michael Isikoff, "U.S .
. intel officials probe ties between Trump adviser and Kremlin," Yahoo News, September 23,
2016. [https:I/\\'\v\v.vahoo.cotnlnews/u-s-intel-officials-probe-ties-between-tru111p-adviser-andkrell1lin-
175046002.html] Matt Fuller, "Trump Campaign: That Adviser Reportedly Talking
With Russian Officials Isn't An Adviser Anymore," September 25,2016.
[http://w\vw.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trunlp-canlpaign-russia-carterpage
us 57e7eb5ge4bOe80b1. ba299b9] ,
11 Ken Bensinger, Miriam Elder and Mark Schoofs, "These Reports Allege Trump Has Deep
Ties To Russia," BuzzFeed News, January 10,2017.
[11ttp8:I/vrV>,T\v. buzzfeed. c01n1kenbensinger/these-reports-allege-trump-has-deep-ties-to-russia]
iii John .Hudson, "U.S. Repeals Propaganda Ban, Spreads Government-Made News to
Americans," Foreign Policy, July 14,2013. [http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07114/u-s-repealspropaganda-
ban-spreads-government-made-news-to-atnericans/]
Weston R. Sager, "Apple Pie Propaganda: The Smith-Mundt Act before and after the Repeal of
the Domestic Dissemination Ban," 109 Northwestern University Law Review, 511, 546 (2015).
See also "Propaganda, Intelligence, Espionage, and Related Matters," Trials of War Criminals
before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals under Control Council Law, No. 10, Nuremberg,
October 1946 - April 1949 (1953): " ... Govemmentmay claim for itself that in the struggle
against bolshevism, the enemy of the whole world, it has achieved a victory ... "
iv https:l/www.dni.gov/:files/documents/ICA 2017 OI.pdf
v Ellen Nakashima, Devlin Barrett and Adam Entous, "FBI obtained FISA warrant to monitor
Trump adviser Carter Page" WashingtonPost, April 12, 2017, p. AI.
[https://www ;washingtonpost.co111/world/national-securityI1bi-obtained-fisa-warrant-to-1110nitorformer-
trunrp-adviser-carter-page/20 17/041111620 192ea-1 eOe-ll e7 -ad7 4-
3a742a6e93a7 story.html] .
vi Chuck Ross, "Paul Ryan Says FBI Will Tum Over Dossier Documents By Next Week,"
Daily Caller, October 26, 2017. [http://dailycaller.con1l2017/1 O/26/paul-ryan-savs-±bi-\vill-turnQ.
YS~r:.g.Q.§.~i.~I:g.~Y-_'=.nD_~!n~l.?Y:n~25J.:.1y'9_~k(] James Rosen, "DOJ, FBI show House investigators
documents on anti-Trump 'dossier' ," Fox News, October 31,2017.
vii Requests byCarter Page to the U~S. Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of Investigation
and the National Security Agency were filed 165 days ago on May 21, 20 I 7, pursuant to the
provisions of the Freedom of Information Act ("FOIA"), 5 U.S.C. § 552, and the Privacy Act, 5
U.S.C. § 552a.
viii "Sen. Graham Begins Hearing on Russia Using Social Media to Meddle in Election; White
House Daily Briefing. Aired 2:30-3p ET," CNN, October 31, 2017.
[hltrEL!.!I~Ilscri.PJ§~1l!l:_~gm!.IRAN~J;"lSlr.ISl171Q.L~ ... LL~ill:.Q§'~1}.tlnl]
IX Each of the libelous 2016 reports by the U.S. federal agency Broadcasting Board of
Governor's grantee Radio Free Europe included links to "Share" the defamatory USG-sponsored
propaganda reports via Facebook, Twitter, the Russian' social media platform VKontakte and
Google Plus. For example, as included on the upper left-hand comer of the RFE's Republication
website late on September 23, 2016, U.S. local time:
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: All right, thank you.
Mr. Page, we will run a 30-minute clock.
Nick, you will give us a 5-minute warning.
10
The majority side will start first, and 1111 turn to my colleague Mr. Rooney for -- oh,
good. Welve got 30 minutes.
MR. ROONEY: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And 11m sure, through the questioning, weill get to the last part of your opening
with regard to Mr. Steele as we move forward. Just a few background questions.
When did you become affiliated with the Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: Officially, I became affiliated when I was announced in The
Washington Post at the editorial board meeting in March 2016.
MR. ROONEY: You were announced by The Washington Post?
MR. PAGE: Well, I had been -- I had volunteered late in -- or I touched base with
Ed Cox, who was the Republican chair for the State of New York in late 2015, and then he
introduced me to various people in early 2016.
MR. ROONEY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: And so I volunteered then. I had an initial meeting in early January
2016, and -- but, again, I was officially a volunteer with an unpaid informal committee
until -- until that announcement was made.
MR. ROONEY: And then when that changed, what was your title then?
MR. PAGE: Just an informal member of that committee.
MR. ROONEY: What committee?
MR. PAGE: The initial foreign policy committee, which I think then-candidate
Trump mentioned was a work in progress and welre adding more people, et cetera.
UNCLASSIFIED
11
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. ROONEY: Were you paid?
MR~ PAGE: I was never paid any money. And I never contributed any money to
the Trump campaign or anyone affiliated with it.
MR. ROONEY: How often did this committee meet?
MR. PAGE: Infrequently. There was only one official meeting with
then-candidate Trump, and I believe the date of that is March 31, 2016, if I'm not mistaken.
MR. ROONEY: Were you at that meeting?
MR. PAGE: I was not. I had a previously scheduled meeting with some of the top
U.S. military commanders many thousands of miles away from Washington. So I was
unable to attend.
MR. ROONEY: Did you ever meet Mr. Trump?
MR. PAGE: I have never met him in my life. I've been in a lot of meetings with
him, and I've learned a lot from him, but never actually met him face-to-face.
MR. ROONEY: Who was your supervisor?
MR. PAGE: You know, again, it was an informal group. And I don't believe
supervisor is a --
MR. ROONEY: Well, who called the meetings? Like if I'm on an advisory board, I
mean, somebody's sending out the email.
MR. PAGE: Well, initially, we -- really, the -- when we started doing meetings was
after that Mayflower speech in April, late April 2016. And J.D. Gordon was brought in,
and he was sort of the de facto organizers for our group, although not -- there was no
official command structure, because, again, it was an informal quasi think tank, if you will.
MR. ROONEY: What was your relationship with the Russian Government?
MR. PAGE: I have no direct relationship with the Russian Government. Just like
several members of this committee might interact with certain businesspeople, I may have
UNCLASSIFIED
12
UNCLASSIFIED
talked with certain Russian Government officials briefly, you know, over the years.
MR. ROONEY: Did you talk to those Russian Government officials over the years
on behalf of the Trump campaign in your role --
MR. PAGE: Never, never. And I made that perfectly clear in the one trip that I
took prior to the -- one trip I took in the entire time of the candidacy of Mr. Trump. Ano
in that one trip of July 2016, I made it perfectly clear that I'm not representing him or the
campaign.
MR. ROONEY: What was that trip about?
MR. PAGE: I have spoken at many universities. I did my Ph.D. in -- at the
University of London's School of Oriental and African Studies on the political economy of
developing markets, with a particular focus on Central Asia and surrounding regions,
including Russia, China, and the Middle East. And so I've spoken at many universities
around the world for many, many years, going back to when I first enrolled in that program·
over I think, you know, 15 years or so ago. And I was invited, as I had been invited on
many times before, to speak at the New Economic School. I've spoken in many leading
Moscow universities or many leading Russian universities, and some of the top ones are in
Moscow. And I was able to --
there?
MR. ROONEY: So you spoke at a university in Russia?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. ROONEY: Did you meet with Russian Government officials while you were
MR. PAGE: The only brief interaction I had with any Russian Government official is
after this commencement program or after the -- after my commencement speech on that
Friday in July -- I forget the -- I believe it was July 8th -- I briefly said hello to Arkadiy
Dvorkovich.
UNCLASSIFIED
13
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. ROONEY: Who is he?
MR. PAGE: He is a senior Russian Government official. He was also speaking.
And he was -- he had been delayed because he had meetings with the government. And
he came in, gave a brief speech. As he was walking out, I said hello to him.
MR. ROONEY: Did you talk to h,im about any coordination with the Trump
campaign in your role as the advisory board -- on the advisory board?
MR. PAGE: No coordination whatsoever, no.
MR. ROONEY: What did you all talk about?
MR. PAGE: It was a very brief interaction. It was some nice pleasantries.
cannot recall the precise words I said, but it was sort of best wishes, and, you know, that's
about it.
MR. ROONEY: Mr. Gowdy.
MR. GOWDY: Thank you, Mr. Rooney.
Mr. Page, I wrote down: volunteer, unpaid, informal, unofficial. I'm still trying to
figure out what the hell your role was with the Trump campaign.
MR. PAGE: Let me tell you something, Congressman Gowdy. Where I spent my
most time, frankly -- and it goes back to this dodgy dossier. Most of it was responding to
these false stories that kept being planted by -- in the media. So --
MR. GOWDY: All right. Well, before we get to what you refer to as the dodgy
dossier, I want to understand how you came to be in any way connected -- unofficial,
volunteer, unpaid, I don't care what modifier you want to use. Who asked you to serve in
that capacity on the Trump for President campaign?
MR. PAGE: No one asked me. As I mentioned earlier, I was -- I touched base
with Ed Cox, who is the chairman of the New York Republican Party, and he introduced me
to a few people.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. GOWDY: How many conversations have you had with candidate and/or
President Trump?
14
MR. PAGE: I have never spoken with him at any time directly in my life. I spent
many hours listening to him in great rallies. I've listened to him on TV. I understand
kind of the concepts, but I -- no direct personal relationship in any way.
MR. GOWDY: Well, Dr. Page, let me tell you what the lawyers hear when they
hear that answer. They focus on the word "directly."
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. GOWDY: I'm not aware how you can speak to someone other than directly.
So why did you use the word "directly"?
MR. PAGE: I'm just being careful. You know, I'm a pro se litigant to try to fix
some of these problems in another case in Southern District of New York, and I'm learning
sort of being perfectly clear.
I did -- you know, again, as part of the committee, there are certain people on that
committee who have direct relationships, right? And so I'm being, you know -- we're
under oath. I don't lie ever, but I want to be -- I want to be perfectly clear in that --
MR. GOWDY: I appreciate your desire for clarity, but I want the record to be clear
too. Have you had any conversations with then-candidate or now President Trump,
directly or indirectly?
MR. PAGE: The only thing, I have shared ideas with -- never -- the only thing that
could, you know, if someone's really being a nitpicker on the legal front, is the indirect, you
might say that people that talked with him, people that are members of our growing
committee -- we started off as a very large -- you know, small group during the primaries.
It kept growing over time. Some of those people I spoke with may have spoken with him.
MR. GOWDY: Right. Well, that falls into the general field of conjecture or
UNCLASSIFIED
15
UNCLASSIFIED
speculation. I'm just trying to figure right now on what you actually know. And if I
understand your testimony correctly, you know that you have never spoken with candidate
or President Trump?
MR. PAGE: That is correct, sir.
MR. GOWDY: Have you ever emailed with either candidate or President Trump?
MR. PAGE: No. I -- no.
MR. GOWDY: Text message?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. GOWDY: Any form of communication?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: Has he ever sent you a message?
MR. PAGE: Never. The only message is when I was trying to get my story out
there, you know, again, very indirectly, but he did a tweet in early summer, late May/early
June, where he was saying, you know, they should let -- the Congress should let him testify,
which I'm greatly appreciative of. But that's the only --
MR. GOWDY: Did you respond? Did you respond to that tweet?
MR. PAGE: Not directly to him. Again, various people in the media, when that
came out, there was a lot of questions I got from the media.
MR. GOWDY: Well, we're going to try and make the record as clear as we can.
Have you ever spoken with Donald Trump?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. GOWDY: Have you ever received a message from Donald Trump?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: Have you ever emailed with Donald Trump?
MR. PAGE: No.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. GOWDY: Text message?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: Snapchat?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: Instagram?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. GOWDY: Any form of communication with Donald Trump?
MR. PAGE: Not directly, no.
MR. GOWDY: And there again, 11m trying to figure out what you mean by IInot
directly.1I
MR. PAGE: Just being careful about people who are on our committee I know
would be more in the -- again, in the upper echelon. So there are various volunteers.
Some people are more senior than others. I was a low-level junior guy in this informal
group, and some of the more senior people had.
16
Sothatls the only -- thatls alilim referring to in terms of indirect. They may have
talked about things, which I dont know anything about.
MR. GOWDY: How did you learn of the hacking of the DNC server?
MR. PAGE: Just through the news.
MR. GOWDY: Did you ever have any conversations with anyone, American or not
American, prior to the hacking of the DNC server about that?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: How about the hacking of John Podesta IS email account, how did
you learn about that?
MR. PAGE: Through the media.
MR. GOWDY: Did you ever have any conversations with anyone prior to the
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
hacking of John Podesta IS email about hacking it?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: You went to Russia in July of 2016. Is that right?
MR. PAGE: Yes, sir.
MR. GOWDY: You said you met, if I wrote right, Russian officials.
17
MR. PAGE: I said hello to -- 11m cautious. Again, in terms of defining terms, 1-- as
live argued with various people that are attacking me from the media, therels a clear
differential between a meeting per se and a meeting versus a greeting. Met, if you greet
someone, you shake their hand briefly; I consider that having met that person. Again,
being careful. In terms of actual meeting --
MR. GOWDY: let me tell you how I want to be careful, Dr. Page. 11m more
interested in the content as opposed to the duration. I really donlt care how long the
handshake took.
MR. PAGE: No substantive content.
MR. GOWDY: Well, I need the names of those Russian officials.
MR. PAGE: The one person I recall is Arkadiy Dvorkovich.
MR. GOWDY: That would be official, singular.
MR. PAGE: Yes. look, in the reception after this, at the hall where they were
doing the graduation reception, there may have been some people whose kids are
graduating from New Economic School. So 11m just, again, being as careful and through
and as comprehensive as humanly possible.
MR. GOWDY: Who asked you to go to Moscow?
MR. PAGE: I was just invited. I -- there were a few Russian scholars who I met
through previous speeches I had done in -- in -- what do you call it -- over the years while I
was working on my Ph.D. and related to some of that research.
UNCLASSIFIED
18
UNCLASSIFIED
And so they had introduced me -- there were two coauthors of one article. And
one of the coauthors who I knew personally, he worked -- he wrote a couple of articles
with a scholar whose father ends up -- is director at New Economic School, and they invited
me to come give a speech.
MR. GOWDY: Was the Trump campaign aware of your visit to Moscow in July of
2016?
MR. PAGE: I had asked if, you know -- I had mentioned it a few times to J.D.
Gordon, and I had -- you know, again, it was a standing invitation. And I sent a note
around toa few of the members of our team and--
MR. GOWDY: Why?
MR. PAGE: Just to make sure that -- again, I wanted to be very careful, because
there was starting to be some -- there was starting to be some allegations about or
concerns about Russia in general. And I just wanted to be careful, and just given the fact
that my name was --
MR. GOWDY: Well, if you wanted to be super careful, why did you go?
MR. PAGE: Because I'm trying to live my life and it's something -- I've spoken at
these universities for well over a decade.
MR. GOWDY: Well, if it was unrelated with the Trump campaign, why did you feel
the need to email some of your ad hoc committee members to let them know you were
going?
MR. PAGE: Committee members, but also some members of the official
campaign; I just -- similar to the way I'm being very careful with you, I want to be overly
cautious not to create any concerns, et cetera. So --
MR. GOWDY: What were you worried about? What was the genesis of your
desire for caution?
UNCLASSIFIED
19
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Well, I think if you look back over the last 16 months, it was a very
limited or benign version of that. Again, things can get spun in the media and with certain
politicians that want to advance some concept or a message. I could never have imagined
how crazy it would have gotten with -- particularly with Mr. Steele, et cetera. But
anything's possible.
MR. GOWDY: Welre going to get to Mr. Steele, but right now 11m trying to
understand who you emailed and what the content of those emails were. If you were
going to Moscow in July of 2016, who did you tell, why did you tell them, and what did you
tell them?
MR. PAGE: I had just mentioned that -- I forget the exact specifics, but I had
mentioned to them, it was Corey Lewandowski and I believe Hope Hicks and J.D., just that I
had received this invitation, you know, just wanted to let you know. And I forget the
exact terminology.
MR. GOWDY: Have you made those emails available to the committee?
MR. PAGE: No, but I can.
MR. GOWDY: All right. And did they respond?
MR. PAGE: So Corey said, if you have interest, you know, if it's -- I forget the exact
terms, but, you know, if you have -- 1111 add that to the record. But essentially he said, we
can -- if youlre not going to -- you know, it has nothing --
MR. GOWDY: I don't know. That's why 11m asking.
MR. PAGE: No, not -- not -- if -- you know, if youid like to go on your own, not
affiliated with the campaign, you know, that's fine.
MR. GOWDY: And I assume you would have those emails too, the responses?
MR. PAGE: I can provide that, yes.
MR. GOWDY: Okay. I want to ask you about three words: collusion,
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
coordination, and conspiracy. Do those words have appreciably the same meaning to
you, or do they have different meanings?
20
MR. PAGE: They all -- the common denominator between those three is that I
hear them a lot and it's quite confusing. All I know is anything even close to any of those
particular definitions, I've never done, you know, as per my -- per my correct biography.
MR. GOWDY: I got to make sure you and I have the same understanding of the
words before we can make that next leap. So do those words have appreciably the same
meaning, or do they have different meanings to you, collusion, conspiracy, coordination?
MR. PAGE: The common denominator I see in terms of what I hear is there are
things you shouldn't be doing. I don't do things that I should not be doing, both legally
and ethically.
MR. GOWDY: Well, you can coordinate lunch. There's nothing wrong with that,
is there? So coordination is not an inherently malignant word.
MR. PAGE: Well, it depends what you add onto that sentence.
MR. GOWDY: Right now, I'm just asking you about the meaning. I haven't added
anything onto it yet.
MR. PAGE: I take your point. Yes.
MR. GOWDY: Okay. Do you have any evidence, including yourself, include
yourself in your response, any evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and the
Russian Government to access John Podesta or the DNC email accounts?
MR. PAGE: I have no evidence at all.
MR. GOWDY: Do you have any evidence between any member of the Trump
campaign, official or unofficial, including yourself, to disseminate the information gathered
as a result of those intrusions into, again, the DNC server and the Podesta emails?
MR. PAGE: I do not.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. GOWDY: So you understand the distinction?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
21
MR. GOWDY: One is whether or not you conspired, colluded, coordinated with
the accessing of the information.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. GOWDY: And your testimony is no.
MR. PAGE: Correct.
MR. GOWDY: No evidence, regardless of the source?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. GOWDY: And then the second question is the dissemination, even if you
weren't part of the breach, the dissemination of that information.
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: No evidence whatsoever?
MR. PAGE: None.
MR. GOWDY: Never had conversation with anyone about it?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: Have you ever had any conversations with Donald Trump Jr.?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. GOWDY: Paul Manafort?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. GOWDY: Jared Kushner?
MR. PAGE: I sent to Paul Manafort one email when we started getting attacked
from the New York -- you know, it was actually The New York Times that sent an email to
both him and myself. And I just replied to him with some, again, more political science
concepts in terms of -- one of the authors had written a book on Russia, and I gave some
UNCLASSIFIED
22
UNCLASSIFIED
points as to how some of the things in his research, in his written research, some of those
ideas and concepts he had talked about in his book within, you know, recent years might
have interest in terms of the campaign.
MR. GOWDY: 11m a little confused. Did Mr. Manafort respond back to you?
MR. PAGE: He never responded at all, no.
MR. GOWDY: All right. How about George Papadopoulos, did you have any
communications with him during the course of the campaign?
MR. PAGE: I was included -- I had totally -- he was another member of our
growing committee, and I saw him. I can't remember what -- which meetings exactly, but
I did meet with -- he was in some of those group sessions that we had. And I was
included on some emails with him, yes.
MR. GOWDY: Have you made those available to the committee?
MR. PAGE: I would assume, because it was on a large group, that -- I can. I can
make that available. But I assume, since it's on a large group, you most likely would have
received that from others already. But yeah.
MR. GOWDY: Let's assume we haven't.
MR. PAGE: I will provide that, yes.
MR. GOWDY: How about Mike Flynn, any communications with him?
MR. PAGE: I have never emailedhim.no. And live never spoken with him.
MR. GOWDY: So, if I understand your testimony correctly, youlve never had any
communication, never conspired, colluded, or coordinated with anyone with respect to the
DNC or Podesta intrusions. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: That is correct.
MR. GOWDY: Never had any communications with or colluded, conspired, or
coordinated with anyone, American or otherwise, to disseminate the information gathered
UNCLASSIFIED
23
UNCLASSIFIED
as a result of those intrusions. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: No. Let me mention one brief element which I think is interesting.
MR. GOWDY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: In October, I was in London, and I was -- I had an RT interview in the
London studio of RT.
MR. GOWDY: RT being Russia Today, for those who don It watch it.
MR. PAGE: Yes, yes. One of the two mentioned in the January 6 Intel report,
which I think is quite misleading.
But when I spoke -- one of the broadcasters mentioned -- it was right when one of
the -- the hacked leaks came out. And he mentioned to me: Well, it's too bad how this
information is coming out, because I don't know, it's hard to make sense of it all .
. So that was the only mention -- again, he was an RT representative -- you know,
before I went on the air with him.
MR. GOWDY: Okay. The intrusions, the results of the intrusions, and 11m just
going to ask you broadly, efforts to interfere with, influence, voter suppression, anything
related to'the 2016 either primary or general election cycles, have you had any
conversations with any Americans, Russians, anyone, any human being about how to
interfere with, influence, otherwise impact the 2016 election for Donald Trump?
MR. PAGE: I have had extensive discussions with many people, both in Article I
and Article II branch institutions within government and also private individuals, about the
illicit steps taken against me and the false information with -- related to the hack against
me and the wiretap against myself. So nothing in -- indirectly, that could affect President
or then-candidate Trump and his campaign. So --
MR. GOWDY: Why do you think the FBI is investigating you?
MR. PAGE: I believe -- just based on things that have been leaked to the press,
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
there are allegations that it related to the dodgy dossier. So, in terms of those, the
perceptions as to what I allegedly did.
24
MR. GOWDY: I'm sure my colleagues are going to get into the dossier with you.
But have you been interviewed by the FBI?
MR. PAGE: I have, which was also leaked to The Washington Post in June.
usually don't talk about those things, but it's been -- someone leaked that to The
Washington Post. I can confirm that's the case, yes.
MR. GOWDY: My guess is that the questions the FBI asked you might provide
some roadmap as to what they think you may have done. So what were the questions
the FBI had for you?
MR. PAGE: They primarily related -- you know, it was an extensive series of many
meetings, but they -- you know, the core foundation I would say, in terms of the overall
structure, in March 2016 -- I'm sorry -- 2017; was related to those false allegations from the
dodgy dossier.
MR. GOWDY: All right. Well, you have made repeated references to false
allegations in the dossier. So I'll finish up there. There were factual assertions made
about you in what's -- we'll call it the dossier. Is it your position that some of those
factual assertions are untrue?
MR. PAGE: They are all untrue. Every word in that about me is completely false.
MR. GOWDY: Every word? That's a big statement, Dr. Page.
MR. PAGE: I would need to look. But in terms of every sentence, you know, they
may say I have some -- you know, I was a supporter of the Trump campaign. The core
allegations of that document werecertainly all false.
MR. GOWDY: Which factual inaccuracies stand out to you the most?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. The main ones were -- there were two main allegations
UNCLASSIFIED
25
UNCLASSIFIED
against me: that I met two individuals, Igor Sechin, the CEO of Rosneft, and Mr. Diveykin,
someone who I had never even heard of in my life. And each of those people I've never
met in my life.
And so there's a lot of allegations in this crazy document that, you know, I might
be -- going back to the terminology you used with collusion, coordination, you know, et
cetera, I might have done things like that with them, which is totally preposterous.
MR. GOWDY: I've got a couple minutes left. I'll give that back to the chairman.
MR. ROONEY: You were just discussing the dossier and, you know, can you -- and
you were talking about this in your opening before you ran out of time.
Can you expand in the last 2-1/2 minutes before the minority begins their questions
on that thought process that you were discussing with the panel with regard to the dossier
and Mr. Steele? Can you finish that thought that you were reading?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. I think it goes back to the points I was making in my opening
statement and the concern as these -- the realities surrounding this document continued to
come out in the press and all these false allegations came.
And that is that, you know, even though this one individual, Christopher Steele,
has -- you know, by all allegations has not been in Russia for many years, to me, it's quite
shocking the level of collective ignorance about Russia and how -- you know, what actually
happens in Russia and how Russia really works today; and also the fact if the allegations are
true, that there was coordination/collusion between him and the agencies of the U.S.
Government, that to me implies a highly politically biased agenda that dangerously violates
the legal mandate of these government agencies.
So, to me, that's a major, major problem, both on a tactical level, looking at what
happened over the last 24 months or whatever since President Trump first announced his
candidacy, but also on a strategic level, because that is precisely -- these misanalyses by the
UNCLASSIFIED
26
UNCLASSIFIED
U.S. Intelligence Community is a complete repeat of what happened at the end of the Cold
War, when they totally missed -- they totally mis-assessed what was going on in Moscow
and Russian institutions.
MR. ROONEY: Have you been told by the Mueller investigation that you should
be -- expected to be indicted?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. ROONEY: I yield back.
MR. CONAWAY: Mr. Schiff.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Dr. Page, I want to ask you some questions about the subpoena you received. You
were subpoenaed to produce all documents relevant to the investigation by early last
month. Did you comply with the subpoena?
MR. PAGE: I had mentioned to members of the -- members of staff that I have
serious concerns about various issues related to both the disclosure but also you look at
George Papadopoulos with his false statement.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, my question is whether you complied with the subpoena
that required you to produce all relevant documents to the committee. Did you comply?
MR. PAGE: I pleaded my Fifth Amendment rights, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And you informed -- because this is the first that minority counsel is
learning this. You pleaded your Fifth Amendment rights notto produce documents to the
committee?
MR. PAGE: 1-- I have a severe concern that there is a -- the information that was
illegally wiretapped and hacked from my computer, it will not -- by definition, 11m a little
guy with very limited technical resources. It cannot be as comprehensive as the
information that was already illegally collected against me.
UNCLASSIFIED
27
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, my question is very simple. Have you complied with the
subpoena, or have you not? Did you invoke the Fifth Amendment, or did you not?
MR. PAGE: I invoked the Fifth Amendment, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And that was communicated to majority counsel?
MR. PAGE: Yes. It was on an email.
MR. SCHIFF: And Mr. Gowdy just asked you a couple questions, and you
acknowledged that you have relevant evidence in the form of emails.
MR. PAGE: I will be happy to provide those, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: So it's your position that you can selectively invoke' the Fifth
Amendment to provide certain documents but withhold other documents?
MR. PAGE: Congressman Schiff, I want to help this committee in every way that I
can. I just want to do that in a way that does not put me at jeopardy, both judicial, in the
judicial system as we've seen with Mr. Papadopoulos, but also with the extrajudicial
punishment that I have been submitted to. After your interaction with Mr. Comey on
March 20th, 2017, I did receive significant personal domestic terrorist threats to myself.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, is it your position that you have a Fifth Amendment right to
provide non incriminating emails or documents to the committee but withhold
incriminating documents from the committee and selectively comply with the subpoena?
MR. PAGE: I -- there are no incriminating -- nothing I have done is incriminating or
even unethical in any way. The only thing -- the only thing that --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, if nothing you have is incriminating, then on what basis are
you invoking the Fifth Amendment right?
MR. PAGE: Because my concern is that the information I would provide to you, on
two levels: Number one, there could be risks that the information is not comprehensive.
And the information, which was already illegally hacked from my computer systems
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
by -- you know, based on some of these proceedings of the past year, will not match up.
So that's my major concern.
28
MR. SCHIFF: Well, Dr. Page, we'll have to discuss with the majority whether this is
a proper invocation of the Fifth Amendment, as well as why we were not informed that you
had invoked the Fifth Amendment.
MR. PAGE: There's also -- again, if you read the specifics of the Fifth Amendment,
it also refers to, you know, twice -- being twice in jeopardy of life and limb. The
extrajudicial punishment I've been submitted to for over 14 months now represents the
risks, you know.
I've been submitted to risks of life and limb many more than twice related to these
proceedings. So that's the other element. It's both the, again, judicial .,.- assuming that
the legal system actually works this time, which by all indications did not work last year,
but also the second element of the -- the extrajudicial punishment I've been threatened
with.
MR. SCHIFF: Just so that we're clear, though, Dr. Page, you are refu?ing to provide
certain documents relevant to our investigation, such as documents that may pertain to
your trip to Russia, on the basis that they may incriminate you?
MR. PAGE: Nothing would directly incriminate me. The only thing that could put
me in some risk for a very aggressive prosecutor is the lack of overlap with those two.
The fact that some of the document -- you know, my documents will not be -- by definition,
they cannot be as comprehensive as the documents which are already collected. The
National Security Agency, CIA, and FBI have infinitely greater data processing capabilities
than I do.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I'm really just trying to understand if you are invoking the
privilege or not. Are you refusing to turn over certain documents to the committee that
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
are relevant to our investigation because you are invoking the Fifth Amendment?
MR. PAGE: Yes. Yes, sir. And each of those elements within it, both judicial
and extraJudicial.
29
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, what email services and addresses have you used over the
last 2 years?
MR. PAGE: I have
And I'm also
overloade-d.
That's my business email.
, just because it gets
There's a -- one of the scholars I've worked with or I've interacted with over the
years is a gentleman by the name of Gary Sick. He's a major expert in the Middle -- in the
Middle East and based at Columbia University, and he sends tons of emails.Solhave a
that's also -- you know, that I get those emails, which I look at, you
know, maybe once a month or so when I get an opportunity.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a Trump campaign email?
MR. PAGE: Never, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Apart from the three email accounts that you've mentioned, do you
have any other email accounts?
MR. PAGE: No. There is an which I believe is
supposed to route to my but sometimes that works; sometimes it doesn't.
I don't have a very sophisticated email system.
MR. SCHIFF: So you don't have an AOL account or a Hotmail account or Yahoo
account or any other email account?
MR. PAGE:
MR. SCHIFF: ?
MR. PAGE:
UNCLASSIFIED
30
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Have you used encrypted apps to communicate as well?
MR. PAGE: Sometimes I use Due to the fact -- because
I travel a lot and I'm a small fry, so it costs -- if you text from the U.K. or Russia on your U.S.
cell phone, it's, you know -- can be up to $5 a minute. But if you do it via these
internet-based apps, it's free, you know, unlimited. Or I think_ may charge you
a dollar a year. So, just from an efficiency standpoint, I use those from time to time.
MR. SCHIFF: And what other platforms do you use to communicate, either text,
email, or otherwise?
MR. PAGE: Well, the iPhone has an iMessage capability. So sometimes I do that
from time to time. And I think standard text messaging I sometimes do as well.
MR. SCHIFF: And from what phone number?
MR. PAGE: Just -- again, related to the domestic terrorist threats I've faced, is it
possible to -- if I start giving out all these -- this information, does this have to be -- could
we make this, you know, outside of the record, or does this -- I'm happy to give you that
information. I'm just trying to -- given the significant threats I've faced over time, over
the last year, I want to just be careful. So is that something that, you know, we could do
off the record or -- I forget the --
MR. SCHIFF: It can be off the record. We can discuss with the majority how to
deal with this. As I understand it, it was your request that this hearing be public and the
majority's wish that it be public. But we will do our best to figure out how we can
accommodate that concern.
MR. PAGE: I can assure you -- now, those documents that you're requesting, will
those -- you know, in terms of the email about joining the campaign, et cetera, some of
those will have my phone number on it. Is that going to be made available to the public
or --
UNCLASSIFIED
31
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, alii can tell you is we will work with the majority to do our
best to protect your personally identifiable information.
MR. PAGE: Thank you so much. Okay. That number is--
MR. ROONEY: Hold on a second. I don't think that it's relevant that he actually
say his phone number for the record. He can write it down and give it to us rather than
having it printed on the court reporter and then broadcast to the public. He's already
given his email, which he's clearly going to have to change. I mean, that's a little bit
over -- if he can write it down and give it to you, I think--
MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Rooney, we're more than copacetic with having those sections
redacted from the public record, but we do want to be able to gain access through third
parties to communications if this witness is unwilling to provide them directly. And so
knowing what cell phone account is going to be important in the investigation. But we
are supportive of a redaction of this, but the committee does need the information.
MR. ROONEY: That's fine. I just don't understand why it has to be made public
for the world to consume.
MR. SCHIFF: I'm not saying it should be made public. I am saying that the
committee does need to know. So we are supportive --
MR. ROONEY: I agree. He can write it down and give it to you. I don't know
why it has to be issued into the report.
MR. SCHIFF: I think that the witness ought to testify as to what--
MR. ROONEY: His phone number is relevant to -- for the public consumption?
mean, I -- he is here voluntarily to give his testimony to help this committee understand
what he did during the campaign. I don't know that the American public needs to know
what his phone number is.
MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Rooney, we're in agreement--
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. ROONEY: You can.
MR. SCHIFF: We're in agreement here.
MR. ROONEY: All right.
MR. SCHIFF: I don't why you're arguing. We support redacting this from the
public record, but I do think that the witness ought to be under oath as to what phones
he's using. So, unless you object to the witness being under oath as to his methods of
communication, can we please allow the witness to answer?
32
MR. ROONEY: I don't. I just don't think he needs to tell you his phone number
out loud for the reporter to record. I think he can just give it to you.
MR. PAGE: Sir, I am 99.9 percent certain that that is definitely within at least
some of those emails which have been requested and which I will be happy to provide you,
yes. And so, assuming that that is not going to be entered in the public record, I believe
your request will be fully -- fully met with that.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I appreciate that.
And, Mr. Conaway, will you support my request that this information be redacted
from the public record?
MR. CONAWAY: Yes. Rather than having it show up as a blank, why don't we do
it in ways that protects his identity but puts the bulk of the -- you know, bodies of the
emails, all those kind of things, into the public record, but in terms of actually him reading
it into the"record and us having a blank in there, just have a statement that says he
provided the committee with that number or something. But yes, we'll work together to
make that happen.
MR. SCHIFF: So, Dr. Page, the number that you'll provide the committee is your
one and only cell phone number, or do you have more than one number?
MR. PAGE: I have various numbers in -- so similar to what I was saying about
UNCLASSIFIED
33
UNCLASSIFIED
trying to cut down on costs, because I travel a lot, I have a U.K. mobile number and a
Russia, a Moscow SIM card that I use. And, again, the nice thing about U.K. in particular,
when it's $5 a minute if I use my AT&T phone, in London, any incoming call if I'm talking to
someone for an hour, an incoming call on a U.K. mobile is free. So it's -- that saves me
$300, you know, on a l-hour call.
MR. SCHIFF: So, Dr. Page, you will provide then your two phone numbers and
your SIM card number to the committee prior to your departure today, or--
MR. PAGE: I can give you the -- it's actually on my -- I need to -- it may be on my
mobile phone. The Russia -- you said the SIM card number. I'm careful. There may be
an identification -- there's a phone number associated with it. I'm not sure --
MR. SCHIFF: Just the phone number.
MR. PAGE: The phone number, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: So you'll provide those, and those will be -- and you understand that
that will be under oath -MR.
PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: -- as to the accuracy?
MR. PAGE: I don't lie, Congressman Schiff. So everything I say, whether it's
under oath or not under oath, is going to be equally accurate and to the best of my
knowledge. And, again, in paragraph 36 and 37 of the complaint I filed in U.s. District
Court, Southern District --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page --
MR. PAGE: -- I also redacted Michaellsikoff's number, who had meet with the
Christopher Steele -- or Christopher Steele part of the dodgy dossier.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, have you taken any action or urged others to take any
action to conceal your communications that are the subject of this investigation?
UNCLASSIFIED
34
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I don't understand the question. What are you driving -- 1-- the only
thing I am cautious about is communications -- the members of our volunteer team, I'm
cautious about the severe damage that's been done to their reputation based on these
false allegations against me. So the only thing I'm -- I try to keep confidential is things
that would hurt other people, so -- in terms of having their name associated with myself.
So --
MR. SCHIFF: Have you taken any steps, Dr. Page, to conceal any communications
regarding individuals you may have met in Russia?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: And have you urged others to take any steps to conceal any
communications with you or with others regarding any individuals you may have met in
Russia?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: So you have never encouraged people to use encrypted applications
to avoid detection?
MR. PAGE: Well, the -- I -- when the dodgy dossier libeled me and -- or these
articles which came out of the -- Christopher Steele's investigation came out, I started
having, you know, serious reputational damage, but also these threats against my life and
against, you know, people I'm close with.
And so I may have spoken with or I may have tried to mention to certain people
that I'm taking steps to try to protect my life and restore my life, which had been so
thoroughly disrupted, given these false allegations from Christopher Steele's reporting and
the media who had met with him and with Fusion GPS, which came out of that.
MR. SCHIFF: Let me try to ask the question again, Dr. Page. Have you ever taken
steps yourself or urged others to take steps to conceal either meetings or conversations
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
that you had while you were in Russia?
MR. PAGE: No. To the best of my recollection, no.
MR. SCHIFF: So you've never--
35
MR. PAGE: Again, just to be very clear, every meeting I ever had in Russia was
completely benign. It was nothing, you know, nothing I would be ashamed of having
broadcast on national television, because, again, I've never done anything wrong, not only
in those 2 years but throughout my life --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I want to make sure we have clarity. So you've never
urged others to use encrypted apps or avoid using open communications regarding
meetings in Russia?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, no. And, again, anything within those
meetings would be totally benign anyway. But I'm just -- again, being similar to my
discussion with Congressman Gowdy, just being very careful. Again, to the best of my
recollection. I'm just cautious.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page--
MR. PAGE: There may have some administrative consideration in the back of my
mind but, again, no judicial and/or extrajudicial concerns in terms of the content and
substance of those meetings.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, you were on television two nights ago with Mr. Hayes and
stated that you had no meetings, no serious discussions with anyone high up or in any
official capacity; it's just kind of man on the street, you know.
Was that an accurate description of your trip to Moscow in July of last year?
MR. PAGE: Absolutely. Absolutely.
MR. SCHIFF: So no meetings with anyone high up or in any official capacity?
MR. PAGE: No. Mostly scholars. Again, 1-- having done my Ph.D. in London
UNCLASSIFIED
36
UNCLASSIFIED
and, you know, interacted with scholars around the world for decades, going back to my
time at the -- even in my time in the Pentagon when I was -- would participate in various
events at the Brookings Institution and others, there were certain scholars I would interact
with there. So --
MR. SCHIFF: So you had no private meetings with any senior Russian officials?
MR. PAGE: No, sir.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, Dr. Page, you mentioned Arkadiy-MR.
PAGE: Dvorkovich, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: -- Dvorkovich. I'll mispronounce his name. Is he the Deputy Prime
Minister of the Russian Federation?
MR. PAGE: I believe he might be, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And you don't consider him to be a high-up official or someone in an
official capacity?
MR. PAGE: I -- nothing I -- it was -- again, I did not meet with him. I greeted him
briefly as he was walking off the stage after his speech.
MR. SCHIFF: So you had no private meeting with him?
MR. PAGE: Absolutely no, not in JUly.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a private meeting with him at some later point?
MR. PAGE: We did -- he stopped by a dinner I went to in December with people
from the university, New Economic School. I was talking with them about possible
research opportunities in the years to come. And so, you know, he -- he's a graduate of
the university. He's a board member of the university, and he was invited, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And that was in December of last year?
MR. PAGE: Yes. 2016, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: But in July of 2016 you had no private meeting with him?
UNCLASSIFIED
37
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No, absolutely not.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
[10:41 a.m.]
MR. SCHIFF: Following your meeting, your trip to Russia, did you send a memo
back to the campaign that conveyed the results of your trip to Russia?
MR. PAGE: I did offer some thoughts about some of my takeaways and
experiences there, yes.
38
MR. SCHIFF: And in that document, Dr. Page, didn't you state, on Thursday and
Friday, July 7 and 8, 2016: "Campaign Adviser Carter Page" -- you're referring to yourself
in the third person -- "presented before gatherings at the New Economic School, NES, in
Moscow, including their 2006 commencement ceremony. Russian Deputy Prime Minister
and NES Board Member Arkadiy Dvorkovich also spoke before the event. In a private
conversation, Dvorkovich expressed strong support for Mr. Trump and a desire to work
together toward devising better solutions in response to the vast range of current
international problems"?
This is a document Bates stamped Dr. Page, did you write that?
MR. PAGE: I did. It was a general sentiment of, you know, hope for the future.
That's all he expressed in that brief hello.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page --
MR. PAGE: It was literally -- it could not have been more than -- it was well less
than 10 seconds, probably closer to 5 seconds than 10 seconds in terms of that interaction.
MR. SCHIFF: So, Dr. Page, 2 days ago, you told the public on television you had no
meetings with anyone except essentially the man on the street, correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Two minutes ago, you said you had no private meeting with Arkadiy.
Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And now you say you did have a private conversation with him on
the subject of U.S./Russia relations. Is that correct?
39
MR. PAGE: I -- similar to my description of benefitting greatly from listening to
speeches from both candidates, both Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump, during the campaign, I
listen closely. I'm a student, a scholar, someone that really listens to try to understand
the other person's perspec~ive and the other person's point of view and viewpoint.
I listened -- I sat and listened in Russian to his speech in -- at the New Economic
School on the grand stage in front of hundreds of people in the large auditorium. And it
was primarily based on that feedback that --
MR. SCHIFF: And, Dr. Page, is this one of the documents that you have withheld
from producing to the committee?
MR. PAGE: I have withheld -- again, I'm cautious because the information that's
already been taken from me illegally, by all accounts, according to leaks to the press, is
information that I want to be careful does not create any additional -- it can never be as
comprehensive as the information that's already been taken from me.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I'm not sure I understand the answer. Is this a document
that's in your possession that you withheld from the committee?
MR. PAGE: I would be happy to give you that document, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, we have the document, Dr. Page. That's really not the point.
But you had this document. You're aware that it was responsive to the subpoena and you
refused to provide it?
MR. PAGE: As part of the -- the main reason is, I'm cautious for those two reasons
mentioned, that I don't want to create any inconsistencies, given the deep level of
information that's already been illegally taken against me, totally outside any concept of
the constitutional due process rights.
UNCLASSIFIED
40
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, Mr. Steele in the dossier makes reference to a meeting that
you had with a representative of the Presidential administration. Did you meet with any
representatives of the Presidential administration while you were in Moscow in July of last
year?
MR. PAGE: Just that brief greeting that I mentioned.
MR. SCHIFF: So the only person you met -- you only met with a single person from
the Presidential administration and that was Dvorkovich?
MR. PAGE: Yes, sir, again, being very careful of the distinction been met and
meeting, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you write in an email to Tera Dahl and J.D. Gordon, on July 8, "On
a related front, I'll send you guys a readout soon regarding some incredible insights and
outreach I've received from a few Russian legislators and senior members of the
Presidential administration here"? Did you write that email, Dr. Page?
MR. PAGE: I believe I did. And it goes back to the point I mentioned with
listening to speeches, listening to particularly Arkadiy Dvorkovich's speech, right. Again,
great insights just like I learned great insights -- even though I've met -- I've never met
Donald J. Trump in my life, I've learned a lot from him, and I got great insights from that,
from listening and studying the information that he -- that he's provided in public forums.
That's -- that is the primary, primary source.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, you've testified under oath that you met with no senior
officials except for a hello to the person who turns out to be the Deputy Prime Minister of
the Russian Federation?
MR. PAGE: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: You've also testified that, apart from him, you met no one from the
Presidential administration, and yet on July 8, of last year, you wrote in an email to the
UNCLASSIFIED
41
UNCLASSIFIED
campaign that you had incredible insights and outreach that you received from Russian
legislators and senior members, plural, of the Presidential administration. Were you
being honest in your communication with the campaign? Are you being honest in your
testimony? Because it doesn't seem possible for both to be true.
MR. PAGE: There has been -- again, great feedback and positive feelings were
expressed in public forums and even just reading the newspaper in Russian that there was
hope for the future. And it's very -- you know, the way I explain this to people is it's very
similar to then-candidate Barack Obama's speech in Germany.
If you remember, in 2008, he received a tremendous amount of positive feedback -MR.
SCHIFF: Dr. Page --
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I'm referring to Bates stamp in which you
relate that you had received insights and outreach from Russian legislators and senior
members of the Presidential administration. What members of the Presidential
administration did you meet?
MR. PAGE: No meetings. You know, it's insights versus outreach. The insights
were primarily based on the materials or the ideas that I read in the press, similar to my
listening to President Trump in the various speeches that I heard of his.
MR. SCHIFF: What--
MR. PAGE: Outreach, let me put it this way: I think scholars, in general, were
also very enthusiastic about trying to end this second cold war that's been created. And
so I think it was sort of a foregone conclusion -- it was pretty much understood that people
would be happy -- if there was interest in terms of having a dialogue, I'm certain that the
Russians would be more than willing to do that. That's what I was expressing, perhaps
not in the most careful, cautious -- you know, if I had started my personal legal training
UNCLASSIFIED
42
UNCLASSIFIED
previously, I probably would have used a different word, frankly speaking.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I don't think you need legal training to be able to
distinguish between what you told the public 2 days ago that you essentially only met the
man on the street --
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: -- and what you have related privately to the Trump campaign, that
you had met with Russian legislators and senior members of the Presidential
administration.
I yield back.
MR. PAGE: I do not see the word "meeting" in this sentence, Congressman Schiff.
I do not see the word "meeting." Again, outreach is available, and incredible insights
were provided. 11m -- I wrote a SOO-page dissertation on related themes.
That's, you know -- that's the primary insights. And the outreach is kind of an
open -- open arms. Per John F. Kennedy's statement, never fear to, you know -- do not
negotiate in fear; do not fear to negotiate. This is not even negotiation.
This was about just having a warm conversation with individuals, similar to what
then-candidate Barack Obama had in Germany 2008. I think that's a great way of
understanding kind of the positive vibe, if you will, from primarily the man on the street,
because that's kind of my greatest interaction.
Just like my greatest interaction was -- again, having never met Donald J. Trump,
the people at those rallies that I --where I was listening to some of the concepts that he
was talking about in terms of policy, et cetera, that's the primary basis of my insights on
both sides.
MR. CONAWAY: All right. Thank you.
Without objection, the chair and ranking member will be permitted to question the
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
witnesses for an additional 30 minutes each and may yield to other members at their
discretion.
So, now, on our side, before we move -- go ahead. Start the clock, Nick.
43
To set the record straight with respect to notification of the minority about your
attempt to plead the Fifth, we have in our possession a letter, dated October the 10th,
2017, at 3:42 p.m. In this letter from Dr. Page to Mueller, Burr, Warnerj Devin, me, and
Adam Schiff: 11m writing to inform you that my intention to exercise the constitutional
protections offered by the privileges of the Fifth Amendment.
So, in that letter, he claims the Fifth. That came to us, to Kash Patel, at 3:42, on
October 10.
We then have another email from Kashto Nick, dated October the 10th, at 3:50,
8 minutes later, asking: Nick, please file and let minority know. Thanks.
We then have an email from Nick to a variety of folks on the minority side, date
stamped October the 10th, 2017, at 4:12. And so let the record reflect that we received it
at 3:42; we passed it onto the clerk at 3:50; and the clerk passed it to the minority at 4:12.
So, with that, we will --
MR. SCHIFF: Would the gentleman yield?
MR. CONAWAY: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Chairman, we were informed by the majority that Mr. Page had
agreed to testify and waive his Fifth Amendment if we allowed the transcript to be
released. That was the understanding that was conveyed to the minority as the reason
why we were departing from the committee's usual practice of publishing the transcript.
Was that not accurate, Mr. Chairman?
MR. CONAWAY: I don't know about that. You just said that we didn't let you
know that he had pled the Fifth originally, and welre just correcting the record on your
UNCLASSIFIED
44
UNCLASSIFIED
comment that we had withheld information from you relative to his original plea for the
Fifth. So that's all I was doing was correcting that statement.
So we'll now move on.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, we were informed that Dr. Page had agreed not to invoke the
Fifth if we had agreed to --
Fifth --
MR. CONAWAY: Well, that was subsequent to this letter.
MR. SCHIFF: But that does not appear to be honored today, Mr. Chairman.
MR. CONAWAY: What?
MR. SCHIFF: The witness is still refusing to provide documents, is still invoking the
MR. CONAWAY: Well, we can take that up. But you just said earlier, in kind of
an off-handed, derogatory way, that we had not informed you that he had originally pled
the Fifth. And I just wanted to correct the record, Adam, to say that we did on a relatively
timely basis. I got it's 32 minutes out of whack, but we gave that to you guys back on
October the 10th. And I was just correcting that statement.
All the stuff that's happened since, his inability to provide -- or his refusal to honor
our subpoena, you and I and the group can take that up with him subsequently, because
I'm a bit offended that he's got those documents when he told us he didn't.
So, nevertheless, he told us, we told you, and now we're moving on. So we've
now killed 3 minutes of our time with a conversation that was simply intended to correct
your original statement.
So, with that, we'll move on.
MR. GOWDY: Dr. Page, let me try to gain a little bit of clarity, and I won't take the
remaining time.
Going back to the FBI, how many times have you been interviewed by the FBI?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: In 2017, either four or five meetings.
MR. GOWDY: How about 2016?
MR. PAGE: 2016, I can't recall. I'm always very cautious, for confidentiality
reasons, to not take notes. I don't recall when exactly, yeah. I've --
45
MR. GOWDY: I try to be cautious too, Dr. Page, but it is not difficult for me to
remember the number of times that the FBI has interviewed me in 2016 because the
answer would be zero. I'm just wondering if you can recall whether the Federal Bureau of
Investigation may have interviewed you in 2016?
MR. PAGE: During that case related to Mr. Podobnyy, where -- which was also
illegally leaked, that I was indeed Male No.1, someone leaked that to Politico and ABC
News in April -- I had a meeting in the U.S. District Court, Southern District in New York -- or
the U.S. Attorney's Office there on the criminal side -- I can't remember the exact
timing -- and I spoke with them about that then.
MR. GOWDY: Well, I'm not sure the manner in which you're referring. Would
that be unrelated to the Trump campaign or today's -MR.
PAGE: Totally unrelated, absolutely.
MR. GOWDY: All right. So --
MR. PAGE: And I would say, just to be clear, I was a witness to that prior case.
MR. GOWDY: All right. Other than the Bureau, have you been interviewed or
talked with any other law enforcement entities?
MR. PAGE: I have spoken -- do you -- I'm not -- I'm sorry.
MR. GOWDY: I hope not. I don't think so.
MR. PAGE: Okay.
MR. GOWDY: - - - - - - -- - --- - - - --- - - - - - - -- - ~-~
UNCLASSIFIED
46
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Yeah, well, I know there's kind of overlap on this.
MR. GOWDY: I hope not. You're telling us something we don't know.
MR. PAGE: Well, I'm learning a lot about some of the gray areas which have
been --
MR. GOWDY: All right.
the FBI would be the only law enforcement
entity that you had spoken with?
MR. PAGE: Yes. Yes.
MR. GOWDY: And I'm trying to understand --
MR. PAGE: I haven't gotten speeding tickets for many -- over 10 years, so I think
no local -- I've spoken -- I had my fingers printed in the New York Police Department for my
securities registration. I can't remember exactly when that was. That may have been
about 2 years ago, I would say, something like that.
MR. GOWDY: Okay. Thank you for that clarification.
I'm trying to understand law enforcement's interest in you with respect to the
jurisdiction of this committee, what we're investigating. And how many times have they
interviewed you in connection with Russia's attempts to interfere with or influence the
2016 election cycle?
MR. PAGE: Approximately four. They came up -- you know, typically when the
FBI has reached out to me previously, they give me a call. This time, in early March 2017,
they just showed up. I was in a lobby near Lincoln Center in the upper west side of
Manhattan, and they just walked up to me.
And I was so happy to see them because I had sent a letter to -- sorry. This is -- I'm
glad you reminded me. I sent a letter to Director Comey on September -- Sunday,
September 25, 2016, after the world premiere of the dodgy dossier when these false
UNCLASSIFIED
47
UNCLASSIFIED
allegations were broadcast by Yahoo News and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty, which is
funded by the Federal agency Broadcasting Board of Governors.
MR. GOWDY: I guess this is where 11m a little bit confused. Did the Bureau talk
to you before the dossier was made public?
MR. PAGE: Did not. And I was actually -- I was concerned about that. That
represented a serious concern, particularly given the threats I had been subjected to and
the severe personal damage, both to myself but, frankly, to the Trump campaign as well.
MR. GOWDY: All right. I don't want to cut you off there, but 11m just trying to
establish whether or not the Bureau talked to you before the dossier was made public.
MR. PAGE: Not in -- not anytime between July 2016 and until the meeting that I
just referenced, where they first came up and approached me in March.
MR. GOWDY: And is it your testimony that all of the Bureau's questions to you are
about allegations made in the dossier?
MR. PAGE: Not all of, but that -- if -- I would say that that was a central
foundation, and, again, it would sort of branch out from there. So also -- there were
some questions also about ttlat prior case with Podobnyy as well.
MR. GOWDY: All right. live written down four different words. I didn't think
lid ever be going through this with anyone, but welve got to, I guess. You seem to draw a
distinction between a meeting, a greeting, a conversation, and you hearing a speech.
50~ to the extent you may have said that you have met with senior members of
Russian Government or legislators in Russia, were those meetings, greetings,
conversations, or were you sitting in the audience listening?
MR. PAGE: The greetings were to Arkadiy Dvorkovich and perhaps -- I believe
there were a couple of legislators, again, in the audience, you know, people whose kids
were graduating from this top Russian university, like if you go to Yale's commencement or
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
Stanford's commencement, and there may be some senior government officials -- or
University of Pennsylvania's commencement -- who said hello very briefly. But so
meetings and greetings -- or sorry, greetings and brief conversations would be each of
those.
48
In terms of listening to a speech, which is the primary focus and the primary thing I
was driving at with these incredible insights, was really the primary focus of where I got my
information.
MR. GOWDY: So what you were trying to communicate is that you had derived
incredible insight from having listened to someone make a speech?
MR. PAGE: Certainly, yes, as I have from Mr. Donald J. Trump during the
campaign.
MR. GOWDY: Okay. Well, I want to lay those insights aside for a second and go
back kind of to the gravamen of this investigation, which would be collusion, coordination,
conspiracy, contact. Let's start with the word "contact" too.
Any of those four words in connection with the unauthorized access of either the
DNC server or Mr. Podesta's email?
MR. PAGE: Absolutely not, in no way, shape, or form.
MR. GOWDY: The dissemination of information collected as a result of those
intrusions?
MR. PAGE: No, with that exception of someone mentioned -- there was
dissemination when I went to give that RT, you know, interview --
MR. GOWDY: Right.
MR. PAGE: -- public interview, and they mentioned that dissemination. That
was an employee, a broadcaster of RT, and he mentioned that, oh, wow, all this
information is coming out, and I don't know how to keep -- make any sense of it or keep
UNCLASSIFIED
49
UNCLASSIFIED
track of it all. So he was just curious.
MR. GOWDY: With Russians, either senior government officials, members of the
legislative body, or to use your phrase "man" -- and let's also include woman -- "on the
street," any conversations with any of those categories of people about how to interfere
with or influence the 2016 American election?
MR. PAGE: Absolutely not. Absolutely not-MR.
GOWDY: -- two more things.
MR. PAGE: Again, other than the points I made in my opening statement and
related documents, letters to the committee about the interference with -- in these false
stories coming out of, you knQw, coming from -- originating from Mr. Ste.ele related to the
false allegations about me, that is the main --
MR. GOWDY: Well, if I understand that testimony correct, the only conversations
you have had are in correcting other people's misapprehensions about what role you
played?
MR. PAGE: That's correct, but it also had a much bigger impact by all indications
on the 2016 election, because, again, these are falsehoods. And I had a conversation with
Robby Mook about that last month.
MR. GOWDY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Or sorry, end of September.
MR. GOWDY: We'll save that for later.
Have you filed a civil lawsuit in connection with the allegations made against you in
the dossier?
MR. PAGE: I have, yes.
MR. GOWDY: Against whom, and what was the cause of action?
MR. PAGE: It was against Oath Inc., which is the parent company -- it's a
UNCLASSIFIED
50
UNCLASSIFIED
subsidiary of Verizon. It is the parent company of Yahoo News and Huffington Post or
now known as Huff Post, where their name was changed.
MR. GOWDY: And what was the specific cause of action?
MR. PAGE: So there were four counts: One is defamation and defamation per se
against Oath and Broadcasting Board of Governors/Radio Free Europe. The second count
is acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries against Oath and BBG. The third is
financing of terrorism against BBG. And the fourth is tortious interference against Oath
and RFE and BBG.
MR. GOWDY: And that lawsuit is filed?
MR. PAGE: Yes, it was filed on September 14 in the U.S. District Court of the
Southern District of New York.
MR. GOWDY: Well, let's focus on your cause of action for defamation. What is
the basis of your belief that you have been defamed?
MR. PAGE: Yes. There was an article on Friday, September 23, 2016, that was
the world premiere of the false allegations from the dodgy dossier. So -- which was then,
late on that night, u.s. time or East Coast time, at 3:55 a.m., I believe, GMT on Saturday
morning, September 24, 2016, there was a -- Radio Free Europe, the u.S. Government's
propaganda network, put out this false report repeating the false information from the
Yahoo News article.
MR. GOWDY: So it is your testimony under oath today that the allegations made
against you and the Steele dossier are demonstrably false?
MR. PAGE: Demonstrably false and demonstrably damaging not just to myself but
particularly to the Trump campaign and all of American democracy.
MR. GOWDY: Well, I don't know"" that you have standing to assert it on behalf of
the Trump campaign or the American democracy.
UNCLASSIFIED
51
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I'm not asserting it on behalf of them. I'm just noting, as a person
who has studied national security and international relations and political science since my
time as a political science honors major up Route 50 at the U.S. Naval Academy in
Annapolis, there is -- that was definitely the biggest influence on the 2016 election in terms
of these Russia-related allegations.
MR. GOWDY: Well, you seem to want to talk about that, so let's talk about that
for a second. Are you of the opinion that Russia did not attempt to interfere with our
influence the 2016 election?
MR. PAGE: I have not been thoroughly convinced of that. Alii
know -- particularly given --
MR. GOWDY: What would it take to thoroughly convince you of that?
MR. PAGE: If the FBI or any other law enforcement agency had been allowed to
examine the DNC's server, as opposed to CrowdStrike, which was also hired by the same
law firm that hired Fusion GPS on behalf of -- or related to Christopher Steele. So there
seems to be quite an overlap there.
So'that, to me, intuitively, raises some serious questions in my mind and also given
some of the other questions I had on -- with relation to the January 6, 2017, intelligence
report.
MR. GOWDY: Well, take the server out of it for a moment. Russia's efforts to
influence social media, are you a birther when it comes to that? Do you not believe that
Russia made an effort to sow the seeds of discord in our country?
MR. PAGE: Congressman Gowdy, I can tell you this: There's been many days of
hearings this week on the other side of the Hill in the Senate --
MR. GOWDY: And here. '
MR. PAGE: in terms of the social media?
UNCLASSIFIED
52
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. GOWDY: And here.
MR. PAGE: Oh, was there? 11m sorry. I missed that. But theylre talking about
a couple hundred thousand dollars of ads, a couple hundred thousand.
MR. GOWDY: Okay. Well, youlre wanting to debate scope. 11m wanting to
debate intent, whether or not it happened. Regardless of scope, is it your position that
Russia made no effort to interfere with or influence the 2016 election cycle?
MR. PAGE: I have seen no intent, and based on all of the things live read, studied,
heard --
MR. GOWDY: Youlve seen no intent? No evidence or no intent?
MR. PAGE: Based on my personal interactions, I saw no intent.
MS. SPEIER: Personal interactions with whom?
MR. PAGE: Just in terms of man on the street and people -- scholars in Russia, for
example. In all of my trips over the past year and a half to Russia -- or my two trips to
Russia in the past year and a half, live never seen any evidence of that type of interference.
Again, everything I -- you know, the main allegations, to the best of my knowledge -- again,
this is not my field of expertise.
MR. GOWDY: Well, it has not stopped you from expressing an opinion.
MR. PAGE: Alii know is that, in terms of trolls, the official definition of trolls,
more or less, is people that use social media or media outlets to sow discord. That is
precisely what happened with me with these false allegations from the dodgy dossier on
September 23, 2016, and in the news flow that continued over the next 45 days leading up
to the 2016 election.
MR. GOWDY: So, if I understand your testimony correctly, you believe the
allegations made against you that were publicly aired were more likely to have impacted
the 2016 election than any efforts or interferences by the Russian Government?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I have -- there's no question in my mind.
MR. GOWDY: On that note, Mr. Chairman, I would yield back.
MR. CONAWAY: All right. Mr. Schiff.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, how did your July trip to Moscow come about?
53
MR. PAGE: I had spoken at many universities in the past, and one of the scholars
who I knew from those -- one of my prior lectures, was a coauthor -- he's a colleague of
another scholar who's actually at the -- at Harvard University now.
And his father -- the father of the individual at Harvard, his father is the rector, the
senior person at the New Economic School in Moscow. And I was invited, as I had been
invited on countless prior occasions over the years, to give a speech in Moscow at that
university, the New Economic School.
MR. SCHIFF: So this person who invited you, who are they? What's their name?
MR. PAGE: There's Andrej Krickovic is the -- sorry. Andrej Krickovic -- the
individual who invited me actually was Shlomo Weber. He's the rector of New Economic
School.
MR. SCHIFF: And how did he invite you?
MR. PAGE: Via email. Via email, uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: And who was the other person you mentioned with -- related to the
university?
MR. PAGE: So his son, Shlomo, you know, Professor Weber's son is Yuval Weber,
W-e-b-e-r. He is a -- or at least, you know, then was a scholar at Harvard University.
MR. SCHIFF: So but Shlomo Weber is the rector at the university in Moscow?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And he's the one who invited you via email?
MR. PAGE: Correct.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And when did he invite you by email?
MR. PAGE: In the first half of 2016, March, April, probably April timeframe, I
believe.
MR. SCHIFF: Was it before or after you became affiliated with the Trump
campaign?
MR. PAGE: It was after.
MR. SCHIFF: Was he aware that you were affiliated with the Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: He was, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Is that part of the reason why he invited you?
54
MR. PAGE: I think there's a general -- as I was alluding to, a general interest in
what's going on in the U.S. in this -- changing times, and so it may have indirectly been part
of it. Again, the main reason I was invited is for the same reason I had been invited
countless times in the past.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, that's your supposition, right. This Mr. Weber at the
university, he has ties to high-ranking Russian officials, does he not?
MR. PAGE: Just like the -- Amy Gutmann, president of the University of
Pennsylvania, has ties to Joe Biden and, you know, and was involved in the ONC in July
of 2016, which happened in her hometown of Philadelphia. So similar to that, he has
some ties.
And, also, New Economic School, there are a few of the board members. It's a top
Russian university, and just like top universities, such as Harvard, Harvard Law School,
there are -- some of the board members or some of the people affiliated with that have
government ties. So I think that's a, you know--
MR. SCHIFF: So the answer is yes?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
55
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And high enough ties that he could get the Deputy Prime Minister to
come to the same event he was inviting you?
MR. PAGE: I think he's been there on many occasions, you know. I think, again,
it's within -- he was there when -- he's definitely been in there at past graduations at the
New Economic School. And, again, he's a graduate. I forget what year he graduated,
maybe 'gO-something, but he's a graduate of New Economic School.
MR. SCHIFF: So, Dr. Page, you're invited to come back to speak at the school at a
time where individuals associated with the university are aware that you're now affiliated
with the Trump campaign, correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes. But I made very clear from the beginning that I'm not speaking
on behalf of the Trump campaign.
MR. SCHIFF: But at least part of their interest may have come from the fact that
you were now affiliated with the u.s. Presidential campaign?
MR. PAGE: They have tons of people speak from the United States. I think they
may have had that same feeling for other Americans. Again, this is a time of change, and
there are -- there is a general interest in things happening in America because--
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, did you read the information, the criminal information, that
was filed against George Papadopoulos?
MR. PAGE: No. I -- you know, some -- I was called by dozens of reporters, and I
was focused on -- I actually needed to send a letter to the defendants in my case, and so I
wasn't -- not really focused on that.
MR. SCHIFF: So you haven't read the information that was filed agai,nst
Mr. Papadopoulos into which he pled?
MR. PAGE: A few people have picked out various points in there and asked me
about some of those elements, particularly the August -- there's some reference -- if -- that
UNCLASSIFIED
56
UNCLASSIFIED
they mentioned, in August 2016, there was a meeting. People asked me, am I the person
referenced in that?
And I told them, it's, you know, impossible that I could have been that person
because I have -- starting in July, when these false allegations from the dodgy dossier came
out --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. --
MR. PAGE: -- in late July, I was trying to stay away from Russia-related matters to
the greatest extent possible. So I would never be --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, if you would try to focus on the question I'm asking.
MR. PAGE: Please.
MR. SCHIFF: So you haven't read the information?
MR. PAGE: I haven't read all of it. I was zeroed in on that one point I was just
alluding to.
MR. SCHIFF: And are you familiar with the part of the information where it is
related that the professor who was the link to the Russian authorities showed a new
interest in Mr. Papadopoulos once he learned that Mr. Papadopoulos had an affiliation
with the campaign? Are you familiar with that part of the information?
MR. PAGE: I'm -- no, I didn't look at that closely. My only familiarity with that is
when The Washington Post, Tom Hamburger from The Washington Post called me back in
August about an email from that, you know, original time. And he was asking me, were
you on that email chain?
And I said: You know, I had some brief interactions with Mr. Papadopoulos, but I
have no recollection.
And he's like: Well, let me read you -- I have the text of that -- see whether you
have that information.
UNCLASSIFIED
57
UNCLASSIFIED
And so I, you know, I checked my inbox and I found that email. I was one of many
people included on that email chain.
MR. SCHIFF: Would it surprise you, Dr. Page, to learn that the Russians had an
interest in George Papadopoulos because he had the same position on the campaign that
you did; that is, he was a new foreign policy adviser to candidate Trump?
MR. PAGE: I don't know anything about that.
MR. SCHIFF: According to the Papadopoulos information, after learning of his
affiliation with the campaign, this professor arranged for other meetings for
Mr. Papadopoulos. Once you did arrive in Moscow for the speech, did the gentleman
who invited you to the university introduce you to members of the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs or other Russians that you know or suspect may be affiliated with the Russian
Government?
MR. PAGE: Not to my recollection. There is -- again, at the reception -- there
was a reception both before and after my speech. And there were some people standing
around, and I was, you know, Mr. -- Professor Weber, there were people mingling.
And, again, so similar to the -- my discussion with Congressman Gowdy about the
distinction between any meetings versus a greeting, I may have greeted somebody, and I
want to just be careful not to make any false statements. But no, you know, no direct
discussions of that --
MR. SCHIFF: So Professor Weber didn't introduce you to any Russian officials that
you either knew or suspected were with the Russian Government?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall, no. He may have -- again, there may have been
a brief hello greeting, but that's -- I have no recollection of specifics along those lines.
MR. SCHIFF: And did anyone you met while you were in Moscow during that trip
later follow up with you to maintain communication with you?
UNCLASSIFIED
58
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I stayed in touch with Shlomo Weber and some of the, you know,
people who were part of our -- you know, some of the scholars. But --
MR. SCHIFF: Some of the Russian scholars you met while you were there?
MR. PAGE: Yeah, uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: Which Russian scholars did you meet while you were there that you
followed up with after you left?
MR. PAGE: There were various email chains and so I--
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, 11m sure there were various email chains. That doesnlt
help us very much.
MR. PAGE: Okay.
MR. SCHIFF: Who did you maintain communication with that you met during that
July Moscow trip?
MR. PAGE: The primary person would be Shlomo Weber, who I understand is an
American citizen but also, you know, a person at that -- or a member of the administration
of that university.
MR. SCHIFF: And who else did you maintain communication with after that trip?
MR. PAGE: There may have been some other people ccld, so such as Andrej
Krickovic.
MR. SCHIFF: And who is Andrej Krickovic?
MR. PAGE: He is a Berkeley Ph.D., I believe, and he is a, I believe, a
professor -- last I checked. live -- again, when all the false allegations came out against
me, live sort of become pretty radioactive, so I havenlt talked with him recently. But last I
saw, he was a professor at the Higher School of Economics, another kind of top economics
school in Russia -- or based in Moscow though.
MR. SCHIFF: And who else were you in communication with after that trip that
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
you had met with during that trip?
MR. PAGE: In terms of?
MR. SCHIFF: In other words, you said there may have been various emails.
MR, PAGE: Yeah.
59
MR. SCHIFF: Who did you stay in communication with or did you have any
followup communication with that you had met while you were on that trip to Moscow?
MR. PAGE: There were some, again, journalists from both the U.S. and Russia who
were reaching out to me. And so --
MR. SCHIFF: And which Russians did you maintain communication with or have
communication with after the trip? Please be specific.
MR. PAGE: I -- there was -- again, RT and Sputnik, various people would reach out
to me for interviews. I donlt have the full recollection or list of that, but there was some
general, you know, asking me questions and some, you know, exchange of ideas.
But, again, everything in those discussions, to the best of my knowledge, was
accurately portrayed as in complete contrast to some of the misportrayals of myself based
on the false allegations of the dodgy dossier, which were in the process of coming out.
I first got contacted -- related to that trip -- related to that trip, in July, late July
of 2016, I was called by The Wall Street Journal asking me --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, 11m not asking you if you were called by The Wall Street
Journal.
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: 11m asking you: People that you met while you were in Moscow in
July of last year that later followed up with some level of communication, either a call, an
email, a text, who followed up with you that you met during that Moscow trip?
MR. PAGE: Just journalists and scholars.
UNCLASSIFIED
60
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And which scholars?
MR. PAGE: The main person in terms of direct interaction was Shlomo Weber and
members of his team.
MR. SCHIFF: And what other members of his team?
MR. PAGE: I can get you that individual's name. I can't recall his name right
now. Again, live been cut off from the world given these false allegations and all the
terrible impact it has had on my life. So--
MR. SCHIFF: And these otherindividuals, did you communicate directly with
them, or were they only cc'd on emails between you and Mr. Weber?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. I may have been in direct contact from --
MR. SCHIFF: And those direct contacts from time to time with these other
unnamed individuals, did any of them concern the Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, no. But to the point I was discussing
with Congressman Gowdy, nothing related to any hacking or any illicit activity of any way,
not only just in a legal sense but in an ethical sense.
People -- again, as a scholar, as live done since my time working in the Cannon
House Office Building while I was a fellow on the House Armed Services Committee, just
research and ideas, you know. People had an intellectual shared interest, just like some
of the scholars I worked with at the -- while I was a fellow in the House Armed Services
Committee.
MR. SCHIFF: How many people would you say that you had communication with
that you met in Moscow after the trip?
MR. PAGE: I would -- to the best of my recollection, probably no more than 10.
But, again, nothing substantive in terms of anything that would be even vaguely related to
this investigation, I can assure you, Congressman Schiff.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Well, I appreciate your assurances, Dr. Page. But I would much
rather see the documents, given the disparity between your testimony and your public
statements and the documents welve already seen.
61
MR. PAGE: Which disparity? I thought we resolved that disparity. 11m not sure
what youlre referring to.
MR. SCHIFF: 11m not sure that we have.
But in any event, Dr. Page, please tell us, to the best of your recollection, as many of
the 10 people that you maintained communication with after you left Moscow.
MR. PAGE: There was a -- again, those three individuals, so Shlomo Weber, Yuval
Weber, and Andrej Krickovic, and a couple of scholars who were there, one of whom is
American, and I canlt recall their names.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you try to obtain any funding from any of these individuals
that you had contact with in Moscow?
MR. PAGE: No, never. No funding. You know, the only thing we had -- again,
the only discussions that came up later in the year in December is the possibility similar to
what live done throughout my life of maybe doing some joint research project in the years
to come. But it was a general discussion in December of 2016, but nothing -- I never
asked anyone for any money, thatls for sure.
MR. SCHIFF: So did you have discussions in December of last year with Russian
nationals about obtaining funding from them?
MR. PAGE: Not -- I think the assumption was we would do it jOintly. You know,
there would be a joint venture, just like Harvard. I went to a program at Harvard at the
end of the first Cold War where they were doing --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, 11m really not asking about your interactions with Harvard.
MR. PAGE: But thatls the context of what I -- what they had in mind, where it was
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
a --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, if you would --
MR. PAGE: -- kind of a quasi jOint venture, if you will.
MR. SCHIFF: -- who did you have discussions about working together with in a
Russia-funded venture of some kind?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. I can't recall those specifics. Again--
62
MR. SCHIFF: You can't recall having discussions over obtaining Russian funding for
some project?
MR. PAGE: No. No Russian -- I mean, no -- there were people -- we were -- I had
broad discussions with. But, again, bear in mind the timing. The timing is essential,
because this is December. And I've already have -- you know, you talk about -- and I think
yourself and others have referred to this dark cloud, right. . The dark cloud was darkest
over myself.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I'm not really asking about dark clouds.
MR. PAGE: Yes. But that prevented--
MR. SCHIFF: I'm asking you, did you have discussions at any time last year -- and
then I'll ask you about this year -- at any time about obtaining Russian Government
funding, Russian university funding, funding from Russian nationals for any purpose
whatsoever?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, no. Again, we -- a broad discussion
about general think tank things, similar to Brookings Institution or Center for National
Policy, where I was previously a fellow. I never solicited directly or indirectly from any
Russian national for any financial backing of any sort, either personally or in the context of,
you know, doing some informal working group.
MR. SCHIFF: So you never sought Russian funding from any source?
UNCLASSIFIED
63
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, no. Again, I just -- I don't want
anything that I may have, you know, may have come up in a broad conversation to be
taken out of context. That was not the intent, and there was nothing direct or definitive
ever offered or suggested by myself.
MR. SCHIFF:· Well, you're doing a lot of hedging, Dr. Page.
MR. PAGE: I'm just -- I'm careful because I know how things -- like, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a conversation with anyone at the university or anyone
in the Russian Government or any Russian nationals that you met during your trip to Russia
last year, either in July or in December, that concerned getting Russian Government or
university funding for a joint effort, a think tank, a project, a thesis, any of the above?
MR. PAGE: The main thing we talked about is joint funding from both U.S. side
and the Russia side. Eventually, somewhere down the road, everything was held in
abeyance given the darkest of dark clouds that was put over my head --
MR. SCHIFF: So you did --
MR. PAGE: -- in September 2016--
MR. SCHIFF: -- have some discussions about a joint venture that would involve
Russian funding?
2016 --
MR. PAGE: I was not soliciting for Russian funding. There may have been -MR.
SCHIFF: -- so was someone offering you --
MR. PAGE: -- the concept -- yeah. Not -- nothing -- totally unrelated to the
MR. SCHIFF: You were not soliciting? Were Russians--
MR. PAGE: And nothing was offered. Actually, it's a good point. That
university similarly, with the dark cloud over me, a similar dark cloud came over this
university when they're constantly getting these crazy questions related to this dodgy
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
dossier.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I still want to bring you back to my question.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
64
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have a discussion with individuals affiliated with this
university'that invited you over once you became affiliated with the Trump campaign
about engaging in a joint venture that would receive in part Russian funding? Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of that, no.
MR. SCHIFF: The information concerning George Papadopoulos mentions a
professor .as well. Professor Joseph Mifsud has been at least speculated as to be possibly
the professor mentioned. I don't know whether he is or not.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you ever met professor Joseph Mifsud?
MR. PAGE: No. Again, I'm cautious of having been in so many universities in
Europe over the years. I -- you know, there may have been a greeting. I have no
recollection of ever interacting with him in any way, shape, or form. Just to be as careful
and thorough and precise as humanly possible. But I have no personal relationship with
him.
The only time I heard that name until Tom Hamburger from The Washington Post
sent me an email -- or got in touch with me about it in August of this year was -- and I -- this
email -- that I was one of many members on that email chain that George Papadopoulos
had sent, which I'd totally forgotten. It was in one ear and out the other, like most of our
broad disc;:ussions in the -- in our, you know, informal committee.
MR. SCHIFF: When you were in Russia -- or let me back up.
Prior to the July trip, who did you communicate with about the July trip from the
Trump campaign?
UNCLASSIFIED
65
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: The first person was -- because, again, after these -- there were
various -- as the campaign continued to expand, there was J.D. Gordon. He was probably
the main person I spoke with.
But the thing with J.D. is that -- again, we're an informal group, right. He was
probably the most formal. I believe he may have even had -- if I'm not mistaken, he may
have had a Trump campaign email address. I had spoken with him on that -- a few
occasions that are -- you know, we'd get together for a dinner. I may have sent an email
or two to him on that. And, again, he never definitively answered one way or another.
MR. SCHIFF: So the people you were communicating with were J.D. Gordon.
MR. PAGE: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: I referenced another individual in the emails that you sent either
from Russia or shortly thereafter, Tera Dahl.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Who is Tera Dahl?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, she's also someone that came in from
the Washington, D.C., area. I was the only person up in New York. Most of our team
was kind of inside-the-beltway people. I believe she may have had some -- I forget her
official or quasi official title, but I believe she was a -- related to some sort of diplomatic
outreach or something along those lines.
But I have relatively minimal --
MR. SCHIFF: She was a member of the campaign. She was not part of the
foreign policy panel that you and Papadopoulos and others were a part of?
MR. PAGE: I think she showed up at one of the dinners. That's probably how I
got her -- that's probably how we got on the email chain. I forget the timing of that
dinner. But, again, it was mostly informal conversations with people getting together
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
who are kind of very peripheral, yeah.
MR~ SCHIFF: And Walid Phares, what was your relationship to him during the
campaign?
66
MR. PAGE: I believe he was also one of the five people in that initial -- you know,
that was announced when our team -- or the people that were volunteers in the foreign
policy realm, he's an expert in the Middle East. And I, you know -- I had heard of him just
in the scholarly sense previously, but he was also involved in the -- as part of the informal
team.
MR. SCHIFF: And how much interaction did you have with George Papadopoulos?
MR. PAGE: Very limited. Very limited. I cannot -- I think the last time I saw him
was somewhere in the range of June 2016, you know. And, again, he was on some email
chains at the very beginning.
My -- to the best of my recollection, I don't recall him ever, for whatever reason,
you know -- probably the most interaction I had -- or that he had with our team was, in
terms of our, you know -- of the informal group, was in the first -- so I believe that
Washington Post report came out in March. It was kind of nothing beyond April of 2016.
Again, he may have showed up --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I'm confused. You said the last time you thought you saw
him was in June of 2016?
MR. PAGE: June, yeah. I believe --
MR. SCHIFF: And at what function was that?
MR. PAGE: That was at a dinner at the Capitol Hill Club in -- sorry, the whatever
the name of the Republican club is just near the Capitol South Metro station. I forget
what that's called. I hadn't been there before, but some of our members of our team got
together there.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And who got together then?
MR. PAGE: We were -- it was organized by Senator Sessions.
MR. SCHIFF: And who was--
MR. PAGE: Or, you know, he was the senior person there.
MR. SCHIFF: And who was present?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall exactly. I know I was there. I believe Keith Kellogg
was there. I don't want to say, because I can't recall exactly the list of participants.
67
MR. SCHIFF: But Senator Sessions and George Papadopoulos were also present?
MR. PAGE: Yeah, I saw -- yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And did Senator Sessions convene the meeting?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall specifically, no. I think it was J.D. that actually sent
around the email, so I don't -- again, I'm careful of definitions in terms of convening or
whatever. But I think J.D. may have let us know about it, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: So your recollection is J.D. emailed you to invite you to this meeting
at the Republican club with Senator Sessions and others?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And was it a dinner event, a dinner meeting?
MR. PAGE: It was a dinner event, yes, dinner.
MR. SCHIFF: And how long did the dinner last?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall, probably the length of an average dinner, 2 hours, hour
and a half kind of thing.
MR. SCHIFF: And during the course of the dinner, this would have been the month
preceding-your trip to Moscow?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you inform the others present that you were going to Moscow?
UNCLASSIFIED
68
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: ' I mentioned it briefly to Senator Sessions as I was walking out the
door, that 11m, you know -- 11m -- because I remember it was actually right -- I forget the
exact date, but it was the Thursday night before I flew to Moscow to give my speech. So I
mentioned to him in passing, so -- as we were talking out the door.
Again, going back to my point about think tanks --
MR. SCHIFF: ' But just a moment. This was the Thursday night before you left for
Moscow?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And what day did you leave for Moscow?
MR. PAGE: I believe it was the Sunday, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: So 2 days before you left for Moscow --
MR. PAGE: Not 2 days. There was Thursday -- so this is Thursday night. I just-MR.
SCHIFF: Or 3 days?
MR. PAGE: Yeah, something like that.
MR. SCHIFF: And what did you tell him about your trip to Moscow?
MR. PAGE: I just mentioned, 11m -- you know, originally I was trying to get a lot of
work done prior to my trip because I knew lid be traveling over the coming weeks, but 11m
glad to have had the opportunity -- that was the only time I ever met him. I said: 11m
glad to have the opportunity to meet you. And I just -- 11m going to be traveling, but I
will -- 11m going to give a -- you know, totally unrelated to the campaign, 11m going to give a
brief -- or give a speech in Moscow.
UNCLASSIFIED
69
UNCLASSIFIED
[11:42 a.m.]
MR. SCHIFF: If it was totally unrelated to the campaign, Dr. Page, why did you use
the limited time you had to talk to the now Attorney General to tell him you were going to
Moscow?
MR. PAGE: It was in the c'ontext of saying, because I have -- 11m traveling. You
know, itls like discussing your travel schedule. Just walking -- it was actually right at the
end of the dinner walking out the door, saying, 11m glad I was able to, you know -- because
it was a last minute thing where we got together, and I just mentioned it to him in passing.
He had no reaction whatsoever. It was, you know --
MR. SCHIFF: May I ask another question?
MR. CONAWAY: Quickly.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you.
Did you, in your raising this with the now Attorney General, convey that you hoped
you could be helpful in terms of -MR.
PAGE: Not a bit, no.
MR. SCHIFF: -- the Presidentls desire to-MR.
PAGE: Absolutely not.
MR. SCHIFF: Let me finish the question, if you would.
MR. PAGE: 11m sorry.
MR. SCHIFF: The Presidentls desire to improve relations with Russia?
MR. PAGE: In no way, shape or form. Again, it was just an administrative point
that 11m glad -- you know, although I was -- had this other travel planned, I have this trip
coming up, and 11m glad to have had this one opportunity to meet you. Yeah. And no
discussion of substance in any way, shape or form, thatls for sure. And, again, it was sort
of in one ear and out the other.
UNCLASSIFIED
70
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: All right. Sir, without objection, the chair and ranking member
will be permitted to question witnesses for an additional 30 minutes each and yield to
other members at their discretion.
Welve been at this 2 hours. Letls take a 5-minute break.
[Recess.]
MR. CONAWAY: All right. Weill recommence.
While Mr. Gowdy is coming over, I had a couple of questions, Dr. Page.
What was the title of your speech in Russia in July of 116?
MR. PAGE: I sent at least one time a copy of it. I do not have -- if I had -- I donlt
have that information handy. Itls in one of the letters I sent you.
MR. CONAWAY: Okay. Justin general, what was the subject matter?
MR. PAGE: The main theme was the concept of mutual respect where -- for all
countries, particularly, you know, between China, Russia --
MR. CONAWAY: Right. So but itls written--
MR. PAGE: Political economy and how countries can do a lot better if they are
having a constructive dialogue and working together on things as opposed to being in
constant confrontation.
MR. CONAWAY: Right. Was it published so therels a public record of it? Itls
written?
MR. PAGE: Great question. There has been no publication. It was actually
based on a book that I wrote --
MR. CONAWAY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: -- based on my Ph.D. thesis. And due to the sort of anti-former Soviet
Union, anti-Russia sentiment of various academic publishers, it was not published.
MR. CONAWAY: Okay. Who paid for your travel costs to go to Russia and back?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: The university just paid for the basic travel costs. I was paid zero
dollars for my actual --
MR. CONAWAY: But it was based on receipts, or was it per diem?
MR. PAGE: They booked a flight on Delta for me, and thatls it. Similar, I also
did a -- I participated in --
MR. CONAWAY: But a normal reimbursement of actual out-of-pocket--
71
MR. PAGE: There was no reimbursement. Again, they bought me -- they booked
a ticket, just like Cambridge University booked a ticket for the --
MR. CONAWAY: Okay. I donlt need Cambridge; I just need the Russians.
Mr. Gowdy, anything? All right. Weill yield.
Mr. Schiff, 30 minutes.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
So the Russian university paid for your travel? They bought the tickets, the plane
tickets?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. Just an economy class, class flight, yeah. And 11m a Delta Sky
Miles member, so I got, you know, upgraded to economy comfort on one way.
MR. SCHIFF: And did they pay for your accommodations while you were there as
well?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. Yes, a basic hotel. The same hotel. I actually -- you know, I
looked it up online. It was about a hundred dollars a night. You know, years previously,
those same class of four-star hotels would be $300 a night, but, you know, it was pretty
limited occupancy. 11m not sure what exactly they paid, but it was pretty humble, you
know, much cheaper than -- probably the whole week was pretty close to what, you know,
one night in a Capitol Hill hotel is here. So --
MR. SCHIFF: In addition to your travel and your lodging, did they pay for your
UNCLASSIFIED
72
UNCLASSIFIED
meals as well while you were there?
MR. PAGE: There was a -- you know, like most hotels, there's -- the breakfast was
included, you know. But -- and there were a couple of -- or a dinner that we went to.
But I -- I had some dinners on my·own. There was no -- no stipend or -- I can't recall.
think -- I remember going out to buy some -- some Russian food in one of the local grocery
stores.
MR. SCHIFF: So, Dr. Page, at a time when the university is aware you have now
affiliation with the Trump campaign, they invite you to come to speak at the university and
offer to pay your travel expenses. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: The same way on multiple occasions I have done in the past.
mentioned Higher School of Economics. They had invited me previously. Other
universities, as a scholar in political economy, international relations, I've been invited.
You know, and I think the good example is Cambridge University the following week, you
know, the same thing.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you discuss the nature of your speech before you went over,
with the Russian university?
MR. PAGE: You know, actually, it's interesting. The first -- it's a good question.
So, originally, I was just going to give the Friday afternoon speech or the commencement
actual speech. What I ended -- you know, they asked, well, would you like to give a, you
know, more of -- and, you know, again, you've been at commencement addresses, and
they're sort of general topics, right? This, they asked whether you'd like to do a kind of
more of a substantive scholarly discussion.
And I said: Well, I could do that with --' based on my prior academic research.
So it's -- they're two -- that was the Thursday night speech, and then Friday was the
actual commencement. And the one -- the one that got spun incorrectly by the media is
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
the Thursday night speech, which, as I mentioned to Congressman Conaway, was about
mutual respect, but they take -- you know, the media takes one sentence out of a
4,500~word speech and --
MR. SCHIFF: Let me go back to my question.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
73
MR. SCHIFF: Before you went on the trip, did you discuss with the university what
. you planned to say in your speech, the general theme of your speech or the contents of
your speech?
MR. PAGE: I -- in the -- the one thing I had discussed is, again, I'm not
representing the Trump campaign, and I'm not going to talk about anything related to U.S,.
politics, and like most commencement addresses, it's going to be a general inspiration, how
to, you know, do better in -- you know, you're launching your new career. It's a
commencement address and just general words of advice for new graduates.
SOi in terms of the other speech, which became controversial based on completely
false characterizations, that I did not -- wasn't even set up until I arrived in Moscow -MR.
SCHIFF: And during that --
MR. PAGE: -- to the best of my recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: -- Thursday night speech, was that the speech in which you expressed
criticism over U.S. sanctions over Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Was that a part of your
speech or am I misrecollecting?
MR. PAGE: I am 99.9 percent sure that that never -- again, in some of the
documents I provided this committee, the full -- full transcript is in there. To the best of
my recollection, there was no discussion of sanctions in that. There had been --
MR. SCHIFF: Okay. I may be--
MR. PAGE: -- in many other -- in many news articles, there had been false
UNCLASSIFIED
74
UNCLASSIFIED
accusations about that, you know, following all the dodgy dossier allegations, but people
mischaracterizing that and --
MR. SCHIFF: I may be misremembering it. Was this the speech, though, that was
portrayed as condemning the United States policy for being hypocritical?
MR. PAGE: Mischaracterized. They picked out one --
MR. SCHIFF: Did you use the word IIhypocritical ll in your speech?
MR. PAGE: Can you please repeat your question?
MR. SCHIFF: Did you use the word IIhypocritical ll in your speech?
MR. PAGE: Can you say the full sentence?
MR. SCHIFF: Did you use the word IIhypocritical ll in your speech?
MR. PAG'E: Not with respect to Russia. I was talking about general interactions
between Central Asia, U.S., Europe, China, Middle East, and Russia. So it's been
completely misportrayed as a Russia issue. Again, the main focus on a macro level is
mutual respect; it is a positive. And it was spun as a Russia-policy focus.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, you were giving the speech in Russia. Do you think that
might have affected how your audience was perceiving what you were trying to tell them?
MR. PAGE: The feedback I received was -- that's not the -- that was not the case.
Again, the concept of mutual respect -- mutual respect is something that actually China,
China --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, that's not my question. You talked about, if I understand.
correctly, a hypocrisy of U.S. policy in promoting democratic ideals, and was that a part of
your speech?
MR. PAGE: It was not so specific, no. And, again, in those mischaracterizations,
including in The Washington Post --
MR. SCHIFF: What hypocrisy were you referring to then?
UNCLASSIFIED
75
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Again, it's the concept of mutual respect. If we find ways of, you
know, working -- both working together in an international relations context, but also not
being so definitive as to the way other countries should operate.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, let me take you back to--
MR. PAGE: It's a little bit of a laissez faire kind of, you know--
MR. SCHIFF: Let me take you back to what we were discussing before our break,
the meeting you had at the Republican National Headquarters I think is the building you're
referring to, if I understand correctly. What was the nature of the discussions at that
meeting with Mr. Sessions, then-Senator Sessions -- was J.D. Gordon present?
MR. PAGE: I believe he was.
MR. SCHIFF: And George Papadopoulos you believe was there?
MR. PAGE: I believe, yes, to the best of my recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: What was the nature of the discussion?
MR. PAGE: General foreign policy. If -- if the word "Russia" came up at all in that
discussion, it was in passing. I have no r~collection of any serious intera'ction on that
topic. I had actually met with Prime Minister Modi. I was in a meeting organized at Blair
House across from the White House a couple weeks earlier. And I believe sort of some of
the feedback and, you know, international relations concepts that were discussed in that
meeting 3- weeks earlier, give or take, was the main topic of my -- when we went around
the table, everyone -- you know, similar to the discussions here -- everyone kind of chipped
in a few thoughts. Mine was primarily related to my -- the meeting I was invited to with
Prime Minister Modi.
MR. SCHIFF: So your comments during the meeting were only about your interest
in Mr. Modi or--
MR. PAGE: It wasn't -- again, sort of in an international relations context, just
UNCLASSIFIED
76
UNCLASSIFIED
general approaches to the world. And, again, my -- I have no definitive recollection, but,
you know, to the best of my recollection, that was the case because that, you know -- and,
again, it was more generalized --
MR. SCHIFF: Do you remember what Mr. Papadopoulos raised during the
meeting?
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection whatsoever. He -MR.
SCHIFF: Did Mr. Papadopoulos make--
MR. PAGE: The fact that probably in terms of that email, which is now the big
controversy of back in March, I have no recollection of that. And, you know, I --
MR. SCHIFF: Which email are you referring to, for the record?
MR. PAGE: The one that was -- Tom Hamburger wrote about in his August 2016
article about an email chain, which I think, you know --
MR. SCHIFF: And the subject was what?
MR. PAGE: That was that professor from London who you alluded to. I think his
name was included in there.
MR; SCHIFF: I'm not sure that I'm following. You're referring to an April-MR.
PAGE: No, I believe it was March. It was late March --
MR. SCHIFF: Late March/April--
MR. PAGE: -- to the best of my recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: Late March/April -- I'm sorry, late April-MR.
PAGE: No, late March, I believe.
MR. SCHIFF: Late March email from Mr. Papadopoulos?
MR. PAGE: Yes, to a bunch of people.
MR. SCHIFF: To a bunch of people, including yourself-MR.
PAGE: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: -- that made reference to a professor?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And what, to the best of your recollection, did the email say?
MR~ PAGE: The best of my recollection is what's in the Tom Hamburger article
77
from 2 months ago in The Washington Post. And, frankly, I can't even recall what that is
now. Again, my -- my recollection has been so overwhelmed with these false stories and
trying to reestablish some level of justice in the United States that that is so far outside of
my mind and brain right now that I really have no recollection, frankly, and although I will
note that the, you know --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, and weill try to find the article, but it's your recollection
that you received and you were copied or you were copied on an email from George
Papadopoulos that also involved J.D. Gordon, or was it just between the two of you?
MR. PAGE: No, I believe that that was the main one for the group. And we -- I
believe we had a call in April at some point, but a general discussion, you know, a general ~MR.
SCHIFF: And this email that you recall included a mention of this professor
that Mr. Papadopoulos had met on his trip to Italy and stayed in contact with in London?
MR~ PAGE: No. To be clear, the first -- the one that's referenced in The
Washington Post article was the one to a broader group. The only other email I recall
getting from him is just setting up a brief introductory chat, like I had brief introductory
chats with a lot of members of our committee. And, again, he was not very active in
terms of some of our discussions.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I just want to make sure that 11m understanding what
you Ire saying.
MR. PAGE: Yes;
MR. SCHIFF: Are you saying that there are two emails that you specifically recall,
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
one that was just between you and Mr. Papadopoulos regarding a meeting?
MR. PAGE: No, no, no meeting. Just a call.
MR. SCHIFF: Regarding a call?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And that email was just between the two of you?
MR. PAGE: Yes, I believe so.
78
MR. SCHIFF: And then there's a second email, in which you were one of several
parties who were copied, that took place in late March?
MR. PAGE: I believe so, yes, as referenced in The Washington Post August 2017
article.
MR. SCHIFF: And this article made reference to a professor that George
Papadopoulos had met?
MR. PAGE: I believe so, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And what was conveyed about this professor?
MR. PAGE: Just what was in The Washington Post article. I have no recollection
beyond that. It's so far from my concern because I'm so concerned on other bigger issues
that are really affecting this country and affecting my personal life, given these offenses
that have been --
MR. SCHIFF: Let me ask it this way: Were you aware that this professor that
George Papadopoulos referenced in this email had introduced him to people with the
Russian Government?
MR. PAGE: I believe there may be some reference to that, per my recollection of
reading it in The Washington Post, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And--
MR. PAGE: And having received it 16 months previously, while so many terrible
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
things had happened to me, including death threats', related to the false dodgy dossier.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, letls not lose focus here.
MR. PAGE: But my point is 11m not focused on that, for the reasons that it was
totally --
MR. SCHIFF: - MR. PAGE:
MR. SCHIFF:
MR. PAGE:'
79
-
MR. SCHIFF: _
MR. PAGE:
MR. SCHIFF:
And I would ask also, Mr. Chairman, that we redact the reference.
MR. CONAWAY: Without objection.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
MR. PAGE: Thank you for that.
MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Let me -- outside of the email that you received that was
referenced in The Washington Post, did you learn from any other source, apart from the
email and the article about the email, about any subsequent contacts that George
Papadopoulos had with Russians after meeting the professor?
MR. PAGE: No, I have no recollection. Again, we had various phone calls and
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
group meetings. I don't recall any -- you know, that's the most detail was that first
meeting or that first email chain that a bunch of people were on.
MR. SCHIFF: Do you speak Russian, Dr. Page?
80
MR. PAGE: The way I describe it is I can get my ideas across. And if I'm in a
meeting, I understand what's happening. But it's like when you're talking to someone
from a different country and they have -- it's not -- you know, it's hard on your ears. I'm
not a very smooth Russian speaker. Maybe you could say that about my English as well.
But I'm not -- I'm by no means fluent.
MR. SCHIFF: You lived in Russia for how many years?
MR. PAGE: Three years. 2004 to -- mid-2004 to mid '07.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you become fluent while you were living there?
MR. PAGE: I became better. I became better. I've lost it over recent years, just
given the fact that I'm not doing much or going there much anymore.
MR. SCHIFF: And just to conclude on the meeting with the then-Senator Sessions,
did anyone bring up the topic of Russia during that meeting?
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of it. And I -- one thing I know for sure,
nothing was ever discussed that was in any way beyond a policy, you know, broad policy
context, in terms of definitive steps to do anything, particularly in the context of this
investigation. Nothing remotely related to that.
MR. SCHIFF: Was there any discussion of the President's desire to improve
relations with Russia?
MR. PAGE: Not to my recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: So the only specific reference to Russia you can remember is your
telling the then-Senator Sessions that you were imminently going to be leaving for
Moscow?
UNCLASSIFIED
81
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Not imminently, that I just -- I'm glad to have met him because I was
able to rearrange my schedule because I'm getting ready to head overseas to Moscow and
U.K. in the following weeks. And it was nice to meet you. He wanted to talk to the next
person.
No substance in terms of any content. And I was very clear that total -- I
mentioned, you know, as I've -- as I made clear in all of my speeches, totally unrelated to
the campaign, you know.
MR. SCHIFF: So, during your conversation with then-Senator Sessions, are you
saying that you explained to him that you were going to Russia, but you were not going to
Russia as part of the campaign?
MR. PAGE: Just briefly in passing. There was no explanation. I mentioned that
I'm going there unrelated to the campaign. It was probably a six- or seven-word
comment.
MR. SCHIFF: And what was your point in bringing this up if it was unrelated to the
campaign?
MR. PAGE: Because I -- the point of bringing it up is I changed my schedule
around. It was going to be my last 2 days.in the United States for 3 weeks. So I -- that
Thursday night, I just -- just mentioned that I'm glad to have been able to do that. So it
was more just sort of an administrative point.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, this trip that was unrelated to the campaign, you wrote a
memo in campaign format to debrief the campaign on your trip that was supposedly not
about the campaign. Is that what we are to understand?
MR. PAGE: I know J. -- again, J.D. is a fellow military officer, and he was kind of
the de facto person that coordinated various things related to our informal working group.
So I just thought, having previously been in the Navy as well and followed various formats,
UNCLASSIFIED
82
UNCLASSIFIED
something that might broadly be of interest. So I just followed the format that he's been
looking at to the extent it might be of some general interest.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, the memo that you wrote referred to insights and outreach
. from members of the Russian Parliament and representatives of the Presidential
administration, and expressed a willingness to share further information about that, did it
not?
MR. PAGE: I do not see further information. Where is that? I would -- I do not
see that. Can you -- if you can show me where I said "sharing further information." I am
not familiar with that verbiage.
I may be wrong. Again, I'm focused on other things. But, to the best of my
recollection, there's no -- certainly nothing information sharing in the context of the main
things that this committee has been focused on for the last several months, but --
MR. SCHIFF: "I'll send you guys a readout soon regarding some incredible insights
and outreach I received from a few Russian legislators and senior members of the
Presidential administration here."
"I'll send you guys a readout soon." Dr. Page -MR.
PAGE: That's not information.
MR. SCHIFF: -- doesn't that imply that you have more to share with them on this
subject?
MR. PAGE: Just general things that I learned from listening to speeches,
watching -- again, I hadn't watched Russian TV for many years, but watching Russian TV in
my few days in Moscow there.
MR. SCHIFF: So what you had in mind was you were going to share insights you
learned by watching Russian TV? That does not sound like what you conveyed.
MR. PAGE: I'm a scholar. It's similar to what I shared in that -- the context of my
UNCLASSIFIED
83
UNCLASSIFIED
speech. In any university, whether it's at New York University, New Economic School in
Moscow, Berkeley, et cetera, in Dubai.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, this is not what you conveyed to the campaign. You didn't
say: I'm happy to share insights I gained from watching Russian TV.
You said you met with or that you received incredible insights and outreach from a
few Russian legislators and senior members of the Presidential administration.
MR. PAGE; I would include outreach as being -- again, it was a general warm
greeting. And to the extent that there was some interest in developing a further dialogue
at some point down the road, I would be happy to share that.
But, again, what -- it's interesting the timing. That's -- this email you're referring
to is dated July 8, 2016. In the weeks that occurred after, again, I started getting all these
calls related to the dodgy dossier. And I immediately -- you know, all these false
allegations regarding Igor Sechin and Mr. Diveykin. You know, Sechin I had obviously
heard of. Diveykin I had never heard of.
So that quickly became water under the bridge. I would never -- you know, my
ability and interest to do those types of -- to write that kind of -- descriptions in the future,
not -- it was eminently clear that there was no interest whatsoever for sure, because
everything that the -- you know, the campaign, not only at that time but also in the prior
weeks -- so the communication I got from Wall Street Journal on July 26, 2016, is: We are
told you met with Igor Sechin during your Moscow trip and discussed energy deals and
possibility of U.S. Government of lifting sanctions on him and others.
50·1 --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, you're going way beyond my question.
MR. PAGE: No, but the reason why I did not ever follow up in terms of offering
any additional insights is 18 days within -- after that email, I started getting these calls from
UNCLASSIFIED
84
UNCLASSIFIED
journalists that this false story line about me was out there. And eventually it became,
you know; one of the lead news stories, one of the lead news stories starting on September
23rd, 2016.
So my interest and ability to provide any input with respect to Russia was
completely nil. And it was limited to nil to begin with.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I want to go back to something you said earlier, that you
were a recipient of an email, either by being copied or otherwise, from George
Papadopoulos that made reference to the professor. Do you remember that specifically?
MR. PAGE: I had not remembered it until Tom Hamburger from The Washington
Post told me about it in August 2016 -- or 2017, sorry.
MR. SCHIFF: I don't believe that Tom Hamburger's article makes reference to a
professor. So what I'd like to know is, did you receive a communication from
Mr. Papadopoulos that made reference to a professor that he had met?
MR. PAGE: Yes. When I looked -- I didn't -- I can't remember exactly what I told
The Washington Post, but when I looked back -- I would not have given additional
information. I think the main -- you know, similar to what I expressed in my opening
statement, my focus is on other matters. And certainly I had no, you know -- that was an
in one ear and out the other type of email. I had no recollection of it. And I made
nothing of it, as I saw no one else made any -- you know, based on what I saw in that email
chain, had any interest whatsoever either.
MR. SCHIFF: Are you referring to Ivan Tinofeev?
MR. PAGE: Who's Ivan Tinofeev?
MR. SCHIFF: So that's not the professor you're referring to?
MR. PAGE: No. You had mentioned a gentleman by the name of Mifsud I
believe earlier.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: There may have been one other name included in there, but I think
Mifsud is the one whose name was in that email, if 11m not mistaken, to the best of my
recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: To the best of your recollection --
85
MR. PAGE: There may have been another name as well, but I think just based on,
again, news flow, thatls --
MR. SCHIFF: So, to the best of your recollection, you remember receiving an email
from George Papadopoulos that made reference to a Professor Mifsud?
MR. PAGE: Yes, which I had not recalled. But when The Washington Post had
called me about thi~ email in August 2017, I looked back and I found this email, which was
no interest then and, frankly, probably even of less interest now, because 11m being
so -- taking such proactive steps to try to fix the damage which has been done to my life.
So I have very little interest, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: Ms. Speier.
MS. SPEIER: Thank you.
lid like to start off with why you became interested in wanting to get associated
with the campaign. You referenced early on that you met someone in New York named
Ed Cox. So could you just go through that a little bit more in depth?
MR. PAGE: Certainly. He -- then-candidate Trump is, as live alluded to in a few
letters to the leadership of this committee, was in the office building next to mine.
Trump Tower is next to And live
always had an admiration for PresidentTrump, kind of a -- just watching him and, you
know, the successes hels had in a business context. What -- so that was right when he
came down the escalator in June 2015, I was immediately, you know, just for -- on a
UNCLASSIFIED
86
UNCLASSIFIED
character level was -- had a positive inclination.
I believe it was a few months later that he started giving -- you know, he may have
given a speech related to breaking out -- you know, 11m paraphrasing here, but having new
approaches to the world in general, but U.S.-Russia relations in particular. And this is a
concept which had been one of the things that originally got me interested in the U.S.
Naval Academy back in -- when I was a sophomore or junior in high school, coming in and
watching, you know, U.s.-Russia arms control negotiations and watching, you know,some
. of the military leaders who were behind that. So I always had interest in nuclear policy
and, you know, more constructive --
MS. SPEIER: So you met with Mr. Cox and asked him if he could give you
an -- sorne kind of introduction to the --
MR. PAGE: No, no. I sent him an email in I believe December 2015, mentioning
that I have some interest in --
MS. SPEIER: In working on the campaign?
MR. PAGE: In volunteering. In helping out, yeah.
MS. SPEIER: And then what happened next?
MR. PAGE: He introduced me to a few of the people on the campaign.
MS. SPEIER: And who did he introduce you to?
MR. PAGE: It was Corey Lewandowski.
MS. SPEIER: So was it a few people, or was it just Corey Lewandowski?
MR. PAGE: I believe originally Corey.
MS. SPEIER: And what did Corey tell you?
MR. PAGE: He said, "Letls meet Up," you know, "ild be happy to" -- because,
again, Ed Cox is a respected individual. And so he --
MS. SPEIER: Okay. Was that 5 minutes? Okay.
UNCLASSIFIED
87
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: Let me read this in the record real quick, and we'll go back.
Without objection, the chair and ranking member will be permitted to question the
witness for an additional 30 minutes each and may yield to other members at their
discretion.
And I yield to myself such time as I may consume, and I yield that time back and so
loo'k to the minority for their next 30 minutes.
MR. SCHIFF: And I yield to Ms. Speier.
MS. SPEIER: All right.
So you meet with Lewandowski. Then what happens?
MR. PAGE: Well, it's very interesting. It's one of the -- you know, it's a step
beyond a meet and greet, going back to my discussion with Congressman Gowdy. When I
showed up at his office in early -- in January 2016, he was -- I was waiting in the foyer there
in the fourth floor of Trump Tower. And eventually, this guy was -- I'm a very busy -- a
person that works really hard and is going in a lot of different directions, whether it's
scholarship or business, et cetera. When I walked into his office after waiting for him for
quite some time, he was literally --
MS. SPEIER: "He" being Corey?
MR. PAGE: Corey Lewandowski. He was very busy. And so, you know, we
started talking, and I expressed some interest in foreign policy, and I'd like to volunteer and
help out in some way if I can.
And so -- but while that was happening, he was doing a half dozen different things.
He had two cell phones going. People were running in and out of his office. So it was
almost a fleeting moment in time.
MS. SPEIER: Did you think working on the campaign would be helpful to you in
terms of your business endeavors? Was that one of your motivations?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: The motivation is a general passion for international relations and
foreign policy. That was the main desire. And also, going back to sort of my main
interest of seeinga better situation for the United States and the world, which was the
reason I went to the U.S. Naval Academy. So that's --
MS. SPEIER: Do you have any U.S. clients wanting to do business in Russia?
MR. PAGE: No, no.
MS. SPEIER: Do you have any U.S. clients?
MR. PAGE: Not right now. You know, my business --
MS. SPEIER: Did you have any U.S. clients back in 2015 or 2016?
88
MR. PAGE: There were various projects we were working on. Our main focus, I
believe, to the best of my recollection, had shifted towards the Middle East and South
Africa.
MS. SPIER: You said "we." How many persons in your company?
MR. PAGE: Now, there are -- it's essentially me, because --
MS. SPEI·ER: And how manyin 2015?
MR. PAGE: I have some people who are informal advisers or colleagues who work
on a -- similar for those of you who are lawyers, on a contingency basis.
MS. SPEIER: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Certain groups, you know, individuals that, you know, will look at
various opportunities. If things move forward, if the lawsuit goes to trial, then, you know,
on a cont(ngency, if things work out, then you'll benefit. But in terms of -- if you define
"employees" as paying a salary, no, I have no employees, and I had no employees then as
well.
MS. SPEIER: Thank you. Did you sign an NDA with the Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: I did, yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
89
UNCLASSIFIED
MS. SPEIER: And so you feel compelled to comply with that?
MR. PAGE: I have not -- I had asked -- when I was -- had this terrible thing happen
to me in September 2016 with the dodgy dossier, I sent a note to the person who I had
spoken -- who I had originally signed it with, and I asked, you know, I just want to
be -- because I signed the document in approximately March 2016. And I had -- you
know, the agreement was, well, when it's countersigned, you'll get a copy.
So I had asked then. I had asked a couple of times afterwards. And then, in
September 2016, after that terrible situation happened with these false reports
based -- you know, with the world premiere of the dodgy dossier and these false
allegations, I had asked for a copy of that just to make sure.
MS. SPEIER: Did you receive it?
MR. PAGE: I did not. I never received it.
MS. SPEIER: Did you have any accounts -- do you have any accounts in foreign
banks?
MR. PAGE: When I lived in United Kingdom, I had a_ account, just a local
bank account. And I've had that -- I have that still. . I've had that since 2000, about 16
years. So --
MS. SPEIER: And that's your only account -- only foreign account that you have?
MR. PAGE: That's my only foreign account right now. And there have been no
additions to that other than interest in at least 8 years.
MS. SPEIER: Have you met with the special counsel?
MR. PAGE: I would prefer not to speak about that. And part of it -- there is -- I'm
greatly appreciative -- when that letter that was referenced, the letter of October 10, 2017,
the -- there were a number of, as alluded to, a number of groups and individuals who were
sent this letter.
UNCLASSIFIED
90
UNCLASSIFIED
On the S~nate side, that information or part of the information was leaked. And I
appreciate greatly that HPSCI has not leaked that information. And so, just because I'll
say my understanding is that they don't -- the special counsel would not like those -- that,
you know, the internal dealings of that organization to be disclosed to the media. So I
would prefer not to comment on that.
And for that same reason -- we went through a lot of documents that you'd like to
include in the record -- I would request that this -- the document -- the letter that I sent to
you as well as to the special counsel addressed to Special Counsel Mueller on October 10th
not be included for that same reason, just in terms of confidentiality.
MS. SPEIER: Did you request that this meeting be an open hearing?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MS. SPEIER: So now you want to make an open hearing one that's a closed
hearing?
MR. PAGE: No. I'm just saying, as -- this committee has been far more courteous
than the other --
MS. SPEIER: You're missing my point. It's either an open hearing or -- and a
transcript is -- a closed hearing with a transcript that is going to be provided publicly in 3
days or it's not. You can't have it both ways.
MR. PAGE: I would request that that piece of information -- yes, it was agreed,
but I would request -- again, I'm trying to be as cooperative, helpful, and constructive for
this committee as possible. To the extent that you could please not include that
information related to the special counsel, I would certainly appreciate that.
MS. SPEIER: All right. Let's move on.
MR. PAGE: If you did decide to include it, you would be -MS.
SPEIER: Do you have a Twitter account?
UNCLASSIFIED
91
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No. Oh, sorry, I do. I never used it. I never tweeted in my life.
set one up, , but --
MS. SPEIER: And you've never had direct messages?
MR. PAGE: Not via Twitter, no, nor any other social media, Facebook, Google Plus,
whatever. No, I've got no -- I'm not active. I have never in my life been active on social
media of that sort.
MS. SPEIER: In your speech -- in the speech request that you forwarded to the
Trump campaign, you mentioned a Herman Gref, who is the former Russian Minister of
Economics and Trade who was going to be speaking. Was he there as well?
MR. PAGE: He had to cancel, actually. No.
MS. SPEIER: And then, in your comments, you say: "Please let me know if you
have any reservations or thoughts on how you'd prefer me to focus these remarks."
What is that supposed to mean?
MR. PAGE: A note of courtesy, that if you have -- actually, may I please ask to see
that document. I don't have that in front of me. If I could please see a copy of it.
MS. SPEIER: It appears --
MR. PAGE: It was an offer. If there's any -- again, it was a very constructive
informal group that I was part of, and just as a courtesy, if there's any interest, you know,
just from a conceptual standpoint, if you'd like me to include anything in that, I would be
happy to mention it. Not only was there no interest, as alluded to, the response I
received, you know, stated that, you know, this is totally unrelated to the campaign, full
stop, which is exactly the way I handled it.
Thank you.
MS. SPEIER: It would appear that you were soliciting from the campaign any
messagesyou would like to have conveyed to those in attendance at the New Economic
UNCLASSIFIED
92
UNCL.ASSIFI.ED
School.
MR. PAGE: I would not -- that sentence you're referring to, l would not -- can you
repeat your question? I don't--
MS. SPIER: It says: "Please let me know if you have any reservations or thoughts
on how you'd prefer me to focus these remarks. II
MR. PAGE: Okay. And how do you interpret that, you were saying?
MS. SPEIER: WeU, how do you interpret that?
MR. PAGE: I interpret that as just a courtesy. You know, if I'm going to be over
there, you know, if there's anything that may -- it's primarily just as a private person,
private figure who is just a volunteer in an informa·1 campaign. twas saying that I don't
want to create any problems if there might -- you know, might be any concerns.
MS. SPEIER: You didn't say problems. nprefer me to focus these remarks." It
telegraphs to me that you're saying: If you want me to convey some kind of a message,
ever so subtly or not, I'm happy to incorporate it in my speech.
to.
MR. PAGE: That was not my intention.
MS. SPIER: And then you include a draft of your speech. By the way, this is
MR. PAGE: Can I -- I don't have the draft speech in front of me.
MS. SPEIER: WeU, that's Just the reference. You have the sheet that I'm referring
MR. PAGE: But you say a draft speech. I don't see a draft speech.
MS. SPEIER: If Key Messages} II and then you start your draft speech.
MR. PAGE: Oh.
MS. SPEIER: And then there's a few pages of your draft speech.
MR. PAGE: No, no. There's a -- alii have is a paragraph that just talking, you
UNCLASSIFIED
93
UNCLASSIFIED
know --
MS. SPEIER: Right, but then there's two more pages that you don't have in front
of you which they will provide you right now.
MR. PAGE: Thank you.
MS. SPEIER: Which is
With that, I yield back.
MR. PAGE: May I read this for a moment or-MS.
SPEIER: You certainly may.
MR. PAGE: It's, again, just talking about my life and my experiences, going back.
MS. SPEIER: . Yes, the beginning of your draft.
MR. PAGE: Yes. Which was totally benign, just for the record.
MS. SPEIER: Well, that was just the beginning of the draft, it looks like. Okay.
Thank you, I yield back.
MR. PAGE: And if anything, you know, the subsequent day, because I gave this
academic ·Iecture and it was misportrayed, if anything, I was even more careful and
cautious. The reference I was making in terms of focus of the remarks was not a
forward-leaning refocusing of the remarks. If anything, it was saying I want to be as
cautious, careful, and nonproblematic as possible; so, if you have any concerns and you see
something I don't see that might be a problem, then let me know in terms of, you know,
avoiding any issues.
And, again, beyond my wildest imaginations, I could never have imagined how
aggressively my visit there was completely misportrayed, which is totally beyond who I am
and what I've been throughout my entire life. So a complete fabrication.
MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Quigley.
MR. QUIGLEY: Good afternoon.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Good afternoon.
MR. QUIGLEY: Thanks for being here.
MR. PAGE: Thanks for having me.
MR. QUIGLEY: Who is Victor Podobnyy?
94
MR. PAGE: He is -- he -- he was -- in January 2013, he was a junior attache, kind of
mid -- sort of mid to late 20s, junior attache based at I believe the consulate in New York
City. A Russian -- a Russian diplomat.
MR. QUIGLEY: And how did you know him?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. One of my -- I went to a speech at Asia Society in January 2013
on China and energy development in China. He happened to be in the audience, and
we -- we struck up a conversation, as, you know, like in any interaction that --
MR. QUIGLEY: Well, and after that conversation, did you meet him?
MR. PAGE: We -- we met, to the best of my recollection, just once. We had a
brief coffee at -- or a coke in the afternoon within the couple of months following that -MR.
QUIGLEY: So you're saying you met him just for curiosity, mutual interest?
MR. PAGE: 1-- before all this happened, I used to be a person that liked to interact
with people from different cultures.
MR. QUIGLEY: So that's your answer: you just wanted to interact, right?
MR. PAGE: And also a general interest in Russia. And also to kind of practice my
Russian, which I didn't have a chance to practice much.
MR. QUIGLEY: Your answer is you only met him after that first time, you only had
a separate meeting with him once?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection. There may have been some other
brief interaction in passing, but I believe that's the only meeting, yeah. And we traded
some emails, but that was about it.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. QUIGLEY: Were there any other forms of communication, phone, text?
MR. PAGE: Email. Email, yes.
MR. QUIGLEY: But no phone, no text?
95
MR. PAGE: This is -- I can't remember the texts I send a week ago. This is 4-1/2
years ago. So I have no recollection. We may have called each other to set up that
coffee one afternoon in somewhere around March 2013, but in terms of any
communications, I have no -- no recollection, and nor would it be relevant.
In that meeting, in all of my other communications via email, it was all just
general --I was teaching a class at New York University at the time on -- called, I believe it
was entitled "Energy in the World." And just like I like to speak to my students on some
of these topics of international political economy and energy, I had a similar conversation
with him.
MR. QUIGLEY: You said he was ajunior attache. Who did he claim to be when
he talked to you?
MR. PAGE: That's what he claimed to be, yes .
. MR. QUIGLEY: Did he say why he wanted to meet with you, talk with you, get to
know you?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall, but, you know, it was sort of a shared -- we were -- there
may have been other people I also interacted with at the Asia Society conference that I
went to where we stayed in touch. Certainly, in many other instances. I mean, that's
why you typically go to events like that is to meet people that might be interesting and who
you might learn something from. And that's sort of the way I've lived my life for -- at least
used to live my life until--
MR. QUIGLEY: But--
MR. PAGE: -- went out of control.
UNCLASSIFIED
96
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. QUIGLEY: I get it, but just in short, did he say to you why he wanted to meet
with you?'
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. I think it was a general interest. And certainly,
every -- everything I recall from our discussions mirrored a general interest. And I can
assure you, in that complaint or in the filing related to his case, he never asked me for
anything or never asked, in terms of the things he alluded to in that -- in his wiretap.
MR. QUIGLEY: What are you talking about, what he alluded to?
MR. PAGE: I don't have the -- that document, that filing in front of me, but he
was -- he was saying, well, words to the effect of we may be able to -- or, you know, I might
be able to offer him something related to Gazprom and then screw him over. So--
MR. QUIGLEY: Wait. Who said that?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, this filing in --
MR. QUIGLEY: No, but what did he say to you in that regard?
MR. PAGE: Nothing. Good point. Nothing in that regard. It was just a
general discussion. He never made any requests in terms of actually doing anything -MR.
QUIGLEY: You said "actual" again. Did he mak~ any requests?
MR. PAGE: The only thing we may have -- no requests that my students at New
York University. There may have been --
MR. QUIGLEY: Okay, let's pretend that's important. What did he request from
you?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall him requesting anything. I know what I shared with him
were the exact same materials that I shared with my students at New York University, only
at a much, much lower level. He had -- and his eyes were kind of glazing over, frankly.
My students in my class that year were much more engaged and interested. He showed
little to no interest at all.
UNCLASSIFIED
97
UNCLASSIFIED
. MR. QUIGLEY: Did he ever hand you any documents?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall him ever handing me any documents. If he did, it was
something like a newspaper, and it would be 1 year -- you know, again, something that I
had no -- no interest in. Nothing that would ever constitute any kind of an offer or
request for anything or anything related to actually doing business. There was never any
business discussion. It was just like any --
MR. QUIGLEY: Was it just nothing or a newspap.er or--
MR. PAGE: I don't recall anything. I don't recall anything. But I know that he
never asked me for anything substantively, asked me anything related to do with
U.S.-Russia relations or international relations in general. It was just a few people having
a general discussion about international relations, based on this one --
MR. QUIGLEY: He didn't ask you about any energy companies in Russia?
MR. PAGE: Well, I may -- you know, again, one of the -- one of the companies live
worked with previously is Gazprom. I was an adviser for them for many years. And-MR.
QUIGLEY: SO you two talked about Gazprom?
MR. PAGE: It definitely came up, yes. And at that time, there was a big -- it was
right at the time that the shale revolution was really taking off in the Permian Basin and
really across the United States. And I had a relationship with Chesapeake Energy. At the
time, it was the second largest natural gas producer in the United States. We were
looking at various ways of doing natural gas vehicles.
MR. QUIGLEY: Did he talk to you about what interest you might have in any
respect at all in Gazprom or any other energy company in Russia?
MR. PAGE: No. To the best of my recollection, it was me generally talking about
some of the things I had been discussing at the time with Chesapeake Energy, and it was a
general discussion about that. Again, he wasn't very engaged, interested, or -- or -- and
UNCLASSIFIED
98
UNCLASSIFIED
that's the main reason why --
MR. QUIGLEY: What did you say -- if I might, respectfully, what did you say to him
about Gazprom?
MR. PAGE: Just told him that I had previously worked with them and that I know
that they are similar to Chesapeake Energy in the United States. With the glut of natural
gas that there is across Texas, Oklahoma, and around the world, people such as Aubrey
McClendon, who I knew at the time was the CEO and founder of Chesapeake Energy, they
were looking for new ways to increase natural gas demand. And Russia, cojncidentally, at
the same time was also looking to do that and also had made objectives of increasing the
use of natural gas in vehicles.
MR. QUIGLEY: Did he ever ask you if you had any interest in, if you wanted an
additional or any interest in Gazprom?
MR. PAGE: Not only did he never ask me that, to the best of my recollection, he
would be the worst person on Earth to ask me that, because he's a guy that's this junior
guy, based in an embassy -- or a consulate or whatever in New York City. And, again, I
knew some of the people in -- have known people at Gazprom going back 15 years.
MR. QUIGLEY: SO how did the word come up in the conversation?
MR. PAGE: Because it's the main thing I was working on at the time. I bet if
conversations that you have at lunch may talk about certain policies that you're --
MR. QUIGLEY: Did he bring it up, or did you bring it up?
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of specifics of the conversation 4-plus years ago.
But most likely, I -- I would -- if I were a betting man, I would bet that I brought it up,
because it was my general interest. It's my passion of business development and
international relations. And here's someone that is -- you know, is from Russia and is
having a general conversation about. And, you know, again, it was something I had been
UNCLASSIFIED
99
UNCLASSIFIED
focused on at the time and I -- I know --
MR. QUIGLEY: Did you ask him about an interest you might have in obtaining an
interest or more of anything of value relating to Gazprom?
MR. PAGE: Absolutely not. And if I did have that interest at the time, he would
be the -- probably one of the -- I wouldn't say the worst people on the planet, but in terms
of other people involved in Russia of all the people I knew, probably the most-- the least
relevant.
MR. QUIGLEY: Did you hand him any documents ever, or email him any
documents?
MR. PAGE: I emailed him things that I emailed to my students at NYU.
Per -- again, I wouldn't remember that if it hadn't been in the --
MR. QUIGLEY: Why would you talk to -- send him information that you would
send his students -- your students?
MR. PAGE: My students.
MR. QUIGLEY: Your students.
MR. PAGE: Because he expressed a general interest. And, again, this is public
information. You know, these are things that are readily available to the, again, average
man or woman on the street who are interested. He definitively was not interested.
MR. QUIGLEY: Do you still have these emails?
MR. PAGE: No, I don't.
MR. QUIGLEY: When was the last contact of any sort that you had with
Mr. Podobnyy?
UNCLASSIFIED
100
UNCLASSIFIED
[12:54 p.m.]
MR. PAGE: I do not believe -- again, per the complaint, there was a -- you know,
the FBI contacted me after it was revealed that I'm, quote/unquote, Male One. It was
revealed that I talked with the FBI in, I believe, to the best of my recollection, June 2013.
And I have no recollection of ever crossing paths with him ever since then.
MR~ QUIGLEY: Who is Igor -- I'll pronounce this wrong -- Sporyshev?
MR. PAGE: Is he one of the three people on the complaint? There were two
other people that he was wiretap --
MR. QUIGLEY: I just want to know if you know who he is.
MR. PAGE: I don't know that name, no.
MR. QUIGLEY: You've never met him?
MR. PAGE: I've met hundreds or maybe thousands of people. That name
doesn't ring a bell. It may ring a bell because we're talking about this case. There were
two other Russians who were in the -- who were arrested related to this case. And to
the -- I -- that name -- because we're talking about this now, I believe that may be why
you're bringing it up and that's the same person.
MR. QUIGLEY: I just want to know if -- well, you mentioned there's two other
Russians mentioned in the investigation.
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. QUIGLEY: To the best of your knowledge, who were those two other
Russians?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall those two names.
What I do recall is, you know, when I read through that investigation, I had never
met those other two people, and I don't believe I've ever talked with them since. I'm
almost positive I haven't, because they've now been -- you know, they're no longer in the
UNCLASSIFIED
u.s.
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. QUIGLEY: Well, what do you know about the Russian company Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: Rosneft is the largest Russian oil company.
MR. QUIGLEY: And you know it's a state-owned enterprise, right?
101
MR. PAGE: Yes, although it's been partially privatized. They had an IPO, and so
their shares are listed on various international and Russian stock exchanges.
MR. QUIGLEY: And I apologize if you have answered this. The CEO of this
company, Rosneft --
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. QUIGLEY: .-- Igor Sechin? Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. QUIGLEY: Your understanding is -- and I believe you've been asked this, but I
apologize. You've never met this person. Is that what you said before? Or have you
been asked?
MR. PAGE: Not only have I never met him, he is the -- he's one of the top energy
industry officials in Russia. And there is a quote, if -- I can read it to you, or you can look it
up in my complaint --
MR. QUIGLEY: No. You've answered the question. You've never met him.
Have you ever communicated with him in any way, shape, or form?
MR. PAGE: No, not with him.
MR. QUIGLEY: Anybody associated with him, communicated with them in any
shape or form?
MR. PAGE: So there is a -- one of the people I worked with at -- or, not worked
with. I was -- was the client, a junior member of staff, while I was living in Moscow, 2004
to 2007, is a gentleman by the name of Andrey Baranov. He was on the investor relations
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
team at Gazprom. And a few years ago, he -- so I had known him for approximately a
decade, you know, 10, 11 years. A pretty junior guy at the time, but he's a smart
individual who has kind of risen up.
MR. QUIGLEY: So what's his connection to Mr. Sechin?
102
MR. PAGE: So he was at Gazprom for approximately 10 years while I knew him.
And in approximately 2015 he was offered a position at Rosneft, and so he shifted over to
Rosneft. And so I knew, you know -- he's an old, sort of, friend who I knew in that
context.
And so he is, I believe, head of investor relations at Rosneft and, like any investor
relations person, knows the other executives at the company, including the CEO.
MR. QUIGLEY: So did he, Mr. Baranov, ever communicate any information from
the company itself? What did he talk to you about relating to this company, Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: So, like any other investor relations situation -- investor relations, by
definition, is typically public information, public information that's posted on their website,
given to research analysts at Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs, other banks.
The types of things we would talk about is just, again, similar to my general interest
in energy markets, he would talk about those developments at the company. And so,
similar to what he would tell other investors, I heard those types of, you know, feedback in
my conversations with him.
MR. QUIGLEY: Did he ever talk to you about the fact that that company was under
sanctions by the United States?
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of that.
MR. QUIGLEY: You have no recollection of ever talking to him about the fact that
his company was sanctioned by the United States?
MR. PAGE: See, this is where I'm careful, because sanctions, it's a key thing -- or
UNCLASSIFIED
103
UNCLASSIFIED
it's a topic that's frequently discussed in general terms, just like tax policy might be
discussed this week in Washington. So, similar to me talking to someone on Capitol Hill
about tax policy, I don't want to say that I never talked about sanctions. It may have
come up, like you might have talked about tax policy with someone similarly.
Ce"rtainly, what I can tell you for sure is I have never had any discussions with him
about changing any sanctions policy or things I could even conceivably do in that regard.
MR. CONAWAY: The minority's time has expired. And we will recognize the
minority for an additional 30 minutes.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Before I yield back to my colleague, I just want to get further clarification on the
document issue.
On October 10th, you wrote to special counsel, as well as our committee, saying
you intended to invoke the Fifth. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Subsequently, you entered in discussions with majority counsel in
which you agreed to testify as long as it was made public, and, in exchange, you would not
invoke the Fifth. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes. I want to help your committee-MR.
SCHIFF: I'm just -- please. "
MR. PAGE: Yes -- as much as possible. Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you inform majority counsel that you would nonetheless seek to
invoke the Fifth regarding documentary production?
MR. PAGE: The concerns I raised in that letter stand. The concerns I raised in
terms of--
MR. SCHIFF: My question, Dr. Page, is, when you agreed to testify, provided the
UNCLASSIFIED
104
UNCLASSIFIED
transcript was made public, did you agree to waive your Fifth Amendment privilege, or did
you clarify with majority counsel that you were only waiving it as to your testimony and not
as to your documents?
MR. PAGE: Testimony.
MR. SCHIFF: Is that the discussion you had with majority counsel?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall the specifics, but I told them that I want to help your
committee get to the bottom of this to the greatest extent possible. And I think having a
conversation like human beings as opposed to -- live already been hacked --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, my question is very specific.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you agree to waive your Fifth Amendment privilege, or did you
clarify or specify to majority counsel that you were only waiving it as to testimony and you
were going to maintain your privilege as to documents?
MR. PAGE: That's correct, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: That's--
MR. CONAWAY: Would the gentleman yield?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. CONAWAY: The majority's understanding is that our subpoena for his
documents still stands in its entirety and that there was no agreement to accept, or
whatever, the Fifth Amendment on his documents. So we expect to get the documents
from Mr. Page, as the subpoena that we put out.
MR. PAGE: Again, my main concern relates to the fact that I have -- there's been a
ton of information collected against me illegally based on false pretenses and false
evidence in the FISA court last year. And anything I could give you is both redundant and
potentially contrary to that, because I do not have the data processing or storage
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
capabilities that the U.S. Government, including the National Security Agency, FBI, and the
CIA, have in terms of the information that has already been illicitly collected against me.
So that is my concern, as well as the other concern. Your committee has been
respectful in terms of not leaking, but I have another concern that, you know, my data has
already been --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, my question was only regarding your invocation of the
privilege.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: I will yield back to Mr. Quigley.
MR. QUIGLEY: Thanks.
When you were in Russia in July '16, did you meet with Mr. Baranov?
MR. PAGE: We went -- there was a World Cup -- or a--
MR. QUIGLEY: Just, first, yes or no.
MR. PAGE: I stopped by an event he was at. Yes.
MR. QUIGLEY: Did you plan ahead of time to meet at that location?
MR. PAGE: Yes. Yes.
MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Did Mr. Baranov ever hand you any other documents, any
documents at all, about his company?
MR. PAGE: Not that I recall.
MR. QUIGLEY: Did you hand him anything-MR.
PAGE: Not at--
MR. QUIGLEY: -- at any time?
MR. PAGE: He may have at some point, because I've been to various -- some
banks sometimes organize investor relations events. And, typically, at an investor
relations events, similar to what I was just mentioning to you, Congressman Quigley, about
UNCLASSIFIED
106
UNCLASSIFIED
public information, similar to what's qn their website of their investor presentation as a
publicly traded company, like Chesapeake Energy or Pioneer in the United States, they
have to disclose documents.
The only document I might have received at some conference at some point -- I
don't believe I received anything last year -- would have been something of that sort, like
an investor relations presentation. Nothing more substantive than that or relevant than
that.
MR. QUIGLEY: Do you own any interest shares at all in Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: Zero, and I never have.
MR. QUIGLEY: Gazprom?
MR. PAGE: Gazprom I did until, for some reason, then --
MR. QUIGLEY: When did you acquire the interest in Gazprom?
MR. PAGE: I wrote it in one of the letters, I believe, to you, the committee, but
something around 2008. It was a smaIl--
MR. QUIGLEY:' And when did you -- you said you divested yourself from that.
When did'that take place?
MR. PAGE: Around the time when Harry Reid sent this letter to Director Comey in
August 2016 --
MR. QUIGLEY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: -- you know. Because there's all of a sudden this made-up
controversy.
MR. QUIGLEY: I get it.
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. QUIGLEY: Any interest in any other Russian company-MR.
PAGE: Zero. No.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. QUIGLEY: -- besides those two, ever?
MR. PAGE: No. And, again --
MR. QUIGLEY: Now?
107
MR. PAGE: -- 11m cautious because I have mutual funds, and some of those mutual
funds, you know, as part of a diversified portfolio, might have, you know, 5 percent of their
shares or something along those -- or of their portfolio in Russian --
MR. QUIGLEY: Okay. Putting that aside --
MR. PAGE: Yeah. No direct assets.
MR. QUIGLEY: -- current business interests at all in Russia, right now?
MR. PAGE: Congressman Quigley, all of my business interests anywhere have
been discontinued completely, given these falsehoods that were started from the dodgy
dossier and news reports related to that. I have -- yeah, nothing.
MR. QUIGLEY: Mr. Ranking Member, 11m prepared to yield back to you.
MR. SCHIFF: I just want to go over a couple other things before I yield to my
colleague from California.
Do I understand correctly that in advance of your trip to Moscow in July of last year
that you made arrangements to meet with Andrey Baranov?
MR. PAGE: I donlt believe it was prior. I think it was sort of around that same
time. And I believe it was kind of a reintroduction from some mutual friends we had who
were in one of the banks.
MR. SCHIFF: Can you explain that? Were you reintroduced to Mr. Baranov in
advance of your visit or during your visit?
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall.
MR. SCHIFF: So you don It recall whether prior to leaving for Moscow you had
communications with Mr. Baranov over at his office?
UNCLASSIFIED
108
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No. No. And I never talked with his office, just with him. Yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: You talked directly with him by phone?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall, but 1-- we -- you know, he mentioned this -- there was an
event, and that's where we ended up meeting. You know, it was a group event at a bar in
Moscow to watch the, I believe it was, Europa Cup. It was Portugal, I believe, versus
Wales. So--
MR. SCHIFF: So you had a phone conversation with Mr. Baranov while you were in
Moscow where you arranged to meet during the trip?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, I believe so, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Did he call you, or did you call him?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall specifics. I think -- again, we1re old friends, and so I
don't recall exactly. Again, I believe it was one of our mutual friends from the banks that
had mentioned it. And so they may have set that up or kind of --
MR. SCHIFF: And who is your mutual friend from the banks? And what banks
are you referring to?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. Again, it was Morgan Stanley that did this -- I believe it
was Morgan Stanley that had this event in July.
MR. SCHIFF: Had what event?
MR. PAGE: There was an event to watch this Europa football, you know, or
European soccer match. So I went along to that with a lot of other investors and a lot of
other people, and he was there.
MR. SCHIFF: But prior to your going there and the fact that he was there, you had
a conversation with him on the phone?
MR. PAGE: I believe so, to the best of my recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: And do you have his phone number?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I'm not sure if I still have it, but--
MR. SCHIFF: Well, did you have it at the time you went on the trip?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you call him?
MR. PAGE: We got in touch, and he told me about this event. I can't recall
exactly the method of that communication.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Baranov works for Mr. Sechin, does he not?
109
MR. PAGE: He's part of a -- he's a part of the team at Rosneft. So, you know,
Rosneft is a big company, and there's a lot of people that work for Mr. Sechin, uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: And he's the head of all investor relations for Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: I recall that what he told me in -- we caught up again in my second trip
in December, and he told me that he had -- he may have moved up. And I don't recall
specifically, but he may have had a promotion internally in some format, one way or
another.
MR. SCHIFF: And you can't tell us whether you spoke with him before you left on
the trip?
MR. PAGE: I'm not sure.
MR. SCHIFF: But you may have?
MR. PAGE: Possibly.
MR. SCHIFF: Can you tell--
MR. PAGE: But, again, what I can tell you is any discussions I had was just about
two old friends getting together to have a chat, you know -MR.
SCHIFF: Well, this old friend --
MR. PAGE: -- just kind of reconnecting. And I hadn't been in --
MR. SCHIFF: This old friend who you were reconnecting with also works for
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
someone that Mr. Steele alleged that you had met with, Mr. Sechin, correct?
MR. PAGE: That's correct.
MR. SCHIFF: And Mr. Sechin is under sanctions, is he not?
MR. PAGE: I believe so.
110
MR. SCHIFF: And as someone working on investor relations for a CEO who is
under sanctions, would it be advantageous for that head of investor relations to see those
sanctions go away?
MR. PAGE: It is outside of the scope of his responsibilities, and it would -- let me
tell y.ou one thing. That type of question never --
MR. SCHIFF: It doesn't affect investor relations for Rosneft that their CEO is being
sanctioned?
MR. PAGE: Perhaps. Perhaps on some level. But nothing that this gentleman
said to me ever implied or asked for anything related to sanctions. Again, there may have
been some general reference, just like there's general reference, as I was telling to
Congressman Quigley, about tax policy, et cetera, but no kind of negotiations in any
format.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have communication with Mr. Baranov after you left
Moscow?
MR. PAGE: I can't -- I don't believe so. I can't recall.
MR. SCHIFF: Wouldn't you remember if you'd gotten a call from him or called him
or emailed him?
MR. PAGE: No, because nothing ever of substance -- we never talked about doing
any business together. Again, he's someone I knew previously. And he's a very -- if you
talk to investors in Gazprom, there's a lot of large U.S. institutional investors in
Gazprom -- or, sorry, in -- previously -..: or he previously worked for Gazprom, and now he
UNCLASSIFIED
111
UNCLASSIFIED
works for Rosneft.
He is a smart person. He's someone that, similar to talking with several of you and
having a discussion about substantive matters, he's someone that really knows the
industry. And as an investor relations professional, he's able to talk through what's
happening in the market.
So·general discussions we had. In terms of anything sanctions-related, we never
got into those types of specifics in any way, shape, or form. And what I can say beyond a
shadow of a doubt, there was never any negotiations or any quid pro quo or any offer or
any request, even, in any way related to sanctions.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Steele alleged in the dossier that you had a meeting with
someone from the Presidential administration, correct?
MR. PAGE: Yeah, which is even more ridiculous.
MR. SCHIFF: And yet, in your emails to the campaign, you said you had discussions
with people from Presidential administration, did you not?
MR. PAGE: Again, in passing, but there were -- there was -- the person that was
named in the dodgy dossier, not only had I never heard that person's name, the people I
asked --
MR. SCHIFF: And who were the individuals from the Presidential administration
that you had discussions with while you were in Moscow? Who were you referring to?
MR. PAGE: The main person was, you know, a brief, less-than-l0-second chat
with Arkadiy Dvorkovich.
MR. SCHIFF: Well--
MR. PAGE: But, you know, nothing--
MR. SCHIFF: And who were the members of the Russian Duma that you made
reference to that you met with?
UNCLASSIFIED
112
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Duma was, again, just in passing, a few people when we were shaking
hands.
MR. SCHIFF: And who were they?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
And let me tell you something. Nothing we discussed was ever related to any -- in
a request for -- related to policy in any way. It was just a nice hello, brief -- per my
discussion with Congressman Gowdy, it was a greeting. That's it, nothing more, nothing
less.
MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL: Thank you.
Dr. Page, when was the last time that you spoke with Mr. Podobnyy?
MR. PAGE: I believe it was -- to the best of my recollection, it was in that
complaint, sometime in the first quarter of 2013. So over -- I have -- I've never been
anywhere near him in the last 4-years-plus.
MR. SWALWELL: How about over the telephone?
MR. PAGE: No. I definitely have not had a phone call with him for sure, no.
MR. SWALWELL: How about an electronic communication?
MR. PAGE: No electronic communication over the last, you know -- again, I
forget -- this one brief chat where we talked about things I talked about in my class but of
less detail and of less depth, I can't recall exactly how that meeting was arranged.
MR. SWALWELL: Was that in 2016?
MR. PAGE: No, that was in 2013. 2013.
MR. SWALWELL: So, in 2014, did you communicate at all with Mr. Podobnyy by
phone call, in person, or electronically? Yes or no?
MR. PAGE: No,'because--
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR.SWALWELL: Yes or no?
MR. PAGE: No.
113
MR.SWALWELL: How about in 2015? Phone call, in person, or electronically,
yes or no.·
MR. PAGE: No.
MR.SWALWELL: 2016? Phone call, in person, or electronically. Did you
communicate at all with Mr. Podobnyy?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR.SWALWELL: Since 2013, have you communicated in person, by phone call, or
electronically with anybody who you know to be in communication with Mr. Podobnyy?
MR. PAGE: Absolutely not. And that's why I'm cautious about-MR.
SWALWELL: That was enough, Mr. Page. If that's the answer, we don't
need more.
So --
2013.
in
MR. PAGE: Well, the only thing is, just in terms of people you pass by in passing.
MR.SWALWELL: I'm asking what you know.
MR. PAGE: What I know is no communication whatsoever since the first half of
MR.SWALWELL: Where do you currently live?
MR. PAGE: I have -- due to the terrorist threats-MR.
SWALWELL: No. Where do you live?
MR. PAGE: I don't have any set address right now. I generally spend time mostly
now due--
MR.SWALWELL: Where do you stay when you're in ?
MR. PAGE: I stay at various locations i~. And I don't disclose that due
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCL.ASSIFIED
to the terrorist threats I've received and the death threats.
MR. SWALWELL: WeU, how do you pay for staying at these locations?
MR. PAGE: I -- I'm burning through savings right now. 11m burning through
savings, yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Are they hotels?
MR. PAGE: Sometimes they are.
MR. SWALWELL: Are they with friends?
MR. PAGE: Sometimes they are.
MR. SWALWELl: Okay. Who are these friends?
MR. PAGE: I don't say that because since I've --I've had terrorist threats--
114
MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Page, who are you staying with? And we'll redact what we
have to redact to protect your privacy, but there are a lot of questions about where you've
been, who you're talking to. You're not being very straight with us. So who are you
staying with in
MR. PAGE: On the understanding that this will be redacted, -. MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Anyone who is not
MR. PAGE: Not right now, no.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay.
Is there anywhere outside
with in the last year?
MR. PAGE: I can't· recall.
MR. SWALWELl: Do you have any source of -- in the past-MR.
PAGE: Certainly no one related --
MR. SWALWELl: Go ahead. What were you going to say?
UNCLASSIFIED
who you've stayed
115
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Certainly I haven't spent the night at any Russian's house or anyone
related to the Russian Government's house.
MR. SWALWELL: Well, have you spent the night at anyone's house who_
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of that, no.
MR. SWALWELL: Well, you would remember if you didn't stay_
, wouldn't you?
MR. PAGE: If there is 700 nights, you know, over a couple of years, I would have
to look through my records. And, again, Congressman Swalwell, 11m careful not to say
something that I don't know, so I want to be careful there.
MR. SWALWELL: What has your source of income been in 2017, if any?
MR. PAGE: There are no sources of income right now. 11m living off savings.
11m burning through savings.
MR. SWALWELL: What were your sources of income in 2016?
MR. PAGE: Investments that I have, passive investments.
MR. SWALWELL: Investments in what?
MR. PAGE: Publicly traded companies.
MR. SWALWELL: Which ones?
MR. PAGE: Can we redact this?
MR. SWALWELL: Sure.
MR. PAGE: _
MR. SWALWELL: Other than_, any other companies that have provided
you income in 2016?
UNCLASSIFIED
116
'UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Probably, yes. Yeah. I can't recall, but there's -- again, it's kind of
general passive investment, publicly traded companies.
MR. SWALWELL: Well, I guess I want to understand, Mr. Page, if you haven't had
any clients in 2017 and 2016 and your only source of income were investments, it seems to
me that you would be pretty aware of where your income was coming from in 2016. And
you're telling us that you can't recall.
MR. PAGE: I'm saying there was no other income beyond investments, yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: And beyond the investment in_, were there any other
investments that generated income for you in 2016?
MR. PAGE: I have a diversified portfolio, so I'm -- I don't have my entire stock
details in front of me. But, again --
MR. SWALWELL: Who's the brokerage house that you use?
MR. PAGE: Can we redact this as well?
MR. SWALWELL: Yes.
MR. PAGE:
MR. SWALWELL: Sure. And_ lives in--
MR. PAGE: And a lot of the just, you know, aggressive media likes to sort of
portray me as being, you know, a -- having too close of a relationship
- - - ~- - -- --- - - - - ---------------
-- but I appreciate you, please,
redacting that, because, again, it's just all spin and irrelevant. But -MR.
SWALWELL: When was the last time you were in Russia?
MR. PAGE: December 2016.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Who paid for you to go to that trip?
UNCLASSIFIED
117
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I did.
MR. SWALWELL: Where did you stay?
MR. PAGE: I stayed at a hotel, the same hotel complex where I stayed the last
time.
MR. SWALWELL: Which hotel complex was that?
MR. PAGE: It was -- there's a -- I forget --there's a French company near
Paveletskaya Square that has a complex there, and I -MR.
SWALWELL: What's the name of the hotel?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall the name.
MR. SWALWELL: Why did you go in December 2016?
MR. PAGE: I was interested in possibilities of -- from an intellectual and -- both in
a business context but also in a general scholarly context. Again, I've spent most of my .
life, over the last decade or so, involved in both academic endeavors but also business
endeavors. And so I was --
MR. SWALWELL: Well, Mr. Page, I guess I'm trying to understand, in 2016 you
didn't have any sources of income other than passive investments, you were no longer
affiliated with the campaign, and a month following the election you traveled over to
Russia on your own dime. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: That's correct. And, also, please bear in mind -- yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: Mr. Page--
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: -- Dr. Page, were you seeking business in Russia in
December 2016?
MR. PAGE: I was interested in business, yes, and also potentially--
MR. SWALWELL: What business were you seeking in December of 2016?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall anything specific. Again, I had a feeling that
eventually --
118
MR. SWALWELL: Well, Dr. Page, surely you went over there with a plan, right?
You didnlt just go over there to walk around and to find a IInow hiringll sign at the Red
Square.
MR. PAGE: lIve never -- 11m an entrepreneur, and so therels no IInow hiring.1I
MR. SWALWELL: So who did you seek out in December 2016?
MR. PAGE: Part of the issue is, when the death threats and security threats
came in --
MR. SWALWELL: No, Dr. Page, I understand the history.
MR. PAGE: Part of the reason I went there, you know, itls one of the places I felt
relatively safer.
MR. SWALWELL: Who was protecting you there to make you feel safe?
MR. PAGE: I havenlt received any death threats in Russia.
MR. SWALWELL: Who was protecting you in Russia that made you feel safe?
MR. PAGE: No one is protecting me. Therels just -- lIve never been threatened
in Russia. lIve been threatened on multiple occasions in the United States following in the
wake of the dodgydossier and the trolls that sort of spun up this false story about me.
MR. SWALWELL: So, Dr. Page, let me back up. The dossier was released in
January 2017. Is that right?
MR. PAGE: Correct.
MR. SWALWELL: And youlre telling us that in December 2016 you went to
Moscow because you were afraid of a dossier that would be released a month later. Is
that right?
MR. PAGE: Thatls incorrect. As I alluded to in my opening statement, the first
UNCLASSIFIED·
119
UNCLASSIFIED
time the information from the dodgy dossier was used was a personal attack against me in
September 2016 in news articles, including one from the U.S. Government's propaganda
agency funded by the Broadcasting Board of Governors, Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty,
and other--
MR. SWALWELL: So, Dr. Page--
MR. PAGE: -- some other private media organizations that did tremendous harm,
including putting my life at risk for domestic terrorist threats.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, which individuals -- who did you meet with in
December 2016 in Russia?
MR. PAGE: I met with some scholars from-MR.
SWALWELL: Names.
MR. PAGE: -- New Economic School. I can't remember the full list of names.
did meet Shlomo Weber again. And I mentioned that Mr. Dvorkovich stopped by. And
there was one old person I had previously worked with --
MR. SWALWELL: Name?
MR. PAGE: -- from Gazprom named
MR. SWALWELL: Can you spell that?
MR. PAGE: Yes. So
MR. SWALWELL: Who else did you meet with?
MR. PAGE: I didn't -- I had a brief lunch with Andrey Baranov as well.
MR. SWALWELL: Who else?
MR. PAGE: There was a bank analyst there as well.
'MR. SWALWELL: What was that person's name?
MR. PAGE: I can't definitively recall his name right now.
MR. SWALWELL: Which bank?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Can we redact this?
MR. SWALWELL: No.
120
MR. PAGE: The problem is, again, I don't want to get people in -- it was a general
discussion about not much, right? So I don'twant to get people in trouble.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, you traveled from the United States to Russia a month
after an election that the Russians interfered with, and you met with individuals from a
bank. I would disagree that that is not much. So who did you meet with and which
bank?
MR. PAGE: He never asked for any -- there was never any offer -- he was an old
friend who I had known for some time.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay. What was the old friend's name?
MR. PAGE: I would respectfully request that this information be redacted. I will
tell you that information, but I know that they've said -- particularly given the controversies
and based on the dodgy dossier about me, that to have their name out there is going to be,
you know -- similar to the extraordinary career risk and career damage that I've had, this
may --
MR. SWALWELL: Chair, I would ask that you order the witne~s to answer the
question and provide the name.
MR. ROONEY: [Presiding.] The witness will provide the name.
MR. PAGE: Can we keep it off the record?
I'm sure, Mr. Chairman, when you hear the details, there's -- to destroy someone's
career based on nothing, a conversation that was very generic amongst a couple of old
. friends, I think is a very strong penalty on an individual. I can say that from firsthand
experience, given the much worse experience that I've had.
MR. SWALWELL: And, Mr. Chair, I would submit, the request for this hearing to be
UNCLASSIFIED
121
UNCLASSIFIED
public was made at the request of the witness.
MR. ROONEY: Right. And I don't think that anybody here is trying to destroy
anybody's career. I think that --
MR. PAGE: Well, you will do that, Mr. Chairman. Or there's a risk that that
might happen, you know, particularly given the controversies right now.
MR. SCHIFF: Are we talking about the name of a Russian national that Dr. Page
met with?
MR. SWALWELL: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Then there's no basis to exclude that.
MR. PAGE: He's someone from a U.S. bank, and so U.S. banks are -- I can assure
you, are quite concerned about these controversies.
MR. ROONEY: I think that if -- after we have this hearing, if we would meet with
the minority and determine if, you know, that injury would, in fact, happen, you know,
certainly, you know, we would weigh that. But I think that Mr. Swalwell's question is in
order.
And I think that, you know, barring any evidence that we find after the hearing that
would provide to the contrary, with regard to injury or damage to his name or reputation,
welre trying to, obviously, get to the bottom of -- and, Eric~ welre going to yield again, so
11m not filibustering your time.
MR. SWALWELL: No. I gotcha.
MR. ROONEY: Weill certainly take that under advisement, your concern, before
it's released publicly.
But I think that, you know, for the sake of us being able to move this investigation
forward, that we should hear the person's name.
MR. PAGE: Okay. I will give you that information. I will also just note that
UNCLASSIFIED
122
UNCLASSIFIED
there has been -- I am now, like, a domestic and international pariah, given the false
allegations from the dodgy dossier. So adding someone else's name related to that is -- I
would respectfully request that you -- you know, again going back to the concept of my
speech, which I've lived on throughout my life, if you respect other individuals, they will
respect you.
This individual's name, who I will tell you now, is a person who has always been a
kind individual and someone who certainly has never asked anything which is -MR.
5WALWELL: What's the name, Dr. Page?
MR. PAGE: So, He is a bank analyst at Bank of
America/Merrill Lynch. And I had previously -- when I was in -- I knew him from Moscow
when I was at the bank. 50--
MR. ROONEY: We've gone over this 30 minutes. I was going to ask the witness if
he needs a break--
MR. PAGE: I want to help just--
MR. ROONEY: -- or if we can keep going forward.
MR. PAGE: I want to help you to the best I can.
MR. ROONEY: I understand, but--
MR. PAGE: And I know you have a meeting at 2 o'clock, so I don't need a break.
MR. ROONEY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: I'm a marathon runner. I have endurance. And I've -MR.
ROONEY: Well, I'm not.
MR. PAGE: Any pain I've been through in this committee is minuscule compared
to the dodgy-dossier-inflicted destruction on my life. So I'm happy -- this is an absolute
pleasure, and I'm happy to help out.
MR. ROONEY: Hopefully this is not considered a painful experience, but --
UNCLASSIFIED
123
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Itls not. And I respect -- your committee has been respectful to
me -- and, again, I think -- relative to others. So I want -- again, the reason 11m here is to
help you out in any way as possible.
And I think the reality of this situation is just so outrageous, you know, what started
in September 2016 and before that about me, based on this, you know, opposition
research document, which was paid for by some of the richest people in America, against
this, you know, as Congressman Swalwell correctly alluded to, pretty small fish whose life
has been deeply disrupted and is now living on personal savings.
MR. ROONEY: Understood.
Without objection, the chair and the ranking member will be permitted to question
the witness for an additional 30 minutes each and may yield to other members at their
discretion.
Mr.Swalwell.
MR.SWALWELL: Thank you, Chairman.
Dr. Page, where did you meet_ is it a male or female?
MR. PAGE: Hels a man.
MR.SWALWELL: Male. Where did you meet ?
MR. PAGE: At a restaurant.
MR.SWALWELL: Which restaurant?
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall the name of it.
MR.SWALWELL: Who else joined you?
MR. PAGE: Mr. Baranov.
MR.SWALWELL: What did you talk about?
MR. PAGE: We talked about -- I was actually getting ready to -- again, it was two
old friends. I had known --
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: I understand who was there, Dr. Page.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
124
MR. SWALWELL: My direct question to you and the direct answer I want is, what
did you discuss?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. We talked about general markets and also -- you know, I was
planning to give a speech, you know, for New Economic School and the media the following
day, and s'o I asked them for some thoughts a'bout my speech.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk about the 2016 election that had just happened a
month earlier?
MR. PAGE: They expressed general -- yeah, it came up, and they expressed
general interest in it. And I told them my general perspectives as someone whose life had
been disrupted 3 months earlier. So --
MR. SWALWELL: So the election was discussed, yes.
MR. PAGE: In general terms. But nothing that was discussed related to the
election showed -- for those two individuals who were participating in that lunch, they had
no ill intent or showed having -- they --
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, the question was, the election was discussed, yes,
correct?
MR. PAGE: Broadly, in passing, based on public information and nothing nefarious
in any way.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you receive any documents during this lunch?
MR. PAGE: I don't believe -- no. I'm almost positive I did not.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you present any documents to Mr. Baranov or
?
MR. PAGE: No. 1--
UNCLASSIFIED
speech.
UNCLASSIFIED
MR.SWALWELL: Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: I--
MR.SWALWEll: Yes or no, Dr. Page?
MR. PAGE: I showed them my speech, or showed them some slides from my
MR.SWAlWEll: So you had a laptop with you?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR.SWAlWEll: Okay. And you showed them your laptop?
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR.SWAlWEll: You mentioned an. that you had met with?
125
MR. PAGE: _, yes. For the same reason, I would ask, you know -- he's
someone -- he's just a good -- someone who's never -- always been kind and professional
with me, and I would prefer that his name not be dragged --
MR.SWAlWEll: Where did you meet.?
MR. PAGE: I believe we had a lunch as well.
MR.SWAlWEll: Where was the lunch?
MR. PAGE: It was at a -- there's a chain of steakhouses there. I believe it was at
Goodman's Steakhouse.
MR.SWAlWEll: Who paid for the lunch?
MR. PAGE: I believe we split it.
MR.SWAlWEll: Okay. Was anyone else with you?
MR. PAGE: Which we -- again, we're old friends.
MR.SWAlWEll: Dr. Page, that's enough.
MR. PAGE: So we split it, yeah.
MR.SWAlWEll: Was there anyone else with you with.?
UNCLASSIFIED
126
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No, it was just the two of us.
MR. SWALWELL: So you mentioned you met with., you met with
Mr. Baranov, and on that trip. Anyone else?
MR. PAGE: but --
M{t SWALWELL:
MR. PAGE: -- hopefully that's redacted anyway. "But, yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: Anyone else that you met with on that trip, other than those
three individuals?
MR. PAGE: I mentioned the people from the university.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Anyone other than those individuals?
MR. PAGE: I gave a speech, and there were some people from the university and
journalists there, so --
MR. SWALWELL: Were you paid for the speech?
MR. PAGE: Zero. I've never been paid for any speech in Moscow. Other
people may be paid. I've never been.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, that's fine. If the answer is no -MR.
PAGE: It's a complete no. Never.
MR. SWALWELL: How many nights did you stay in Russia?
MR. PAGE: Approximately six or so.
MR. SWALWELL: Was it direct transit back to the United States, or did you stay
anywhere else before you came back?
I'm --
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. There may have been a connecting flight. Again,
MR. SWALWELL: "Well, I mean, did you -- I expect that you might have connected.
MR. PAGE: Oh, yeah, I did go to a conference in London, I believe, either before or
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
after. Yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: And this was in December?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay. When you were in London, did you meet with any
Russian nationals?
MR. PAGE: This is another example of-MR.
SWALWELL: Yes or no, Dr. Page.
MR. PAGE: I did and--
MR. SWALWELL: Who?
127
MR. PAGE: This is -- I met with a person who has been -- whose life has also been
interrupted.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, again, this is a month after the election. You went to
Russia, then to London, and then back to the United States.
MR. PAGE: 11m not sure. It may have been London, then --
MR. SWALWELL: And at the stop in London, you met with a Russian national.
Who did you meet with?
MR. PAGE: An international advisory board member of my firm, Mr. Sergey
Yatsenko.
MR. SWALWELL: How do you spell his last name?
MR. PAGE: Y-a-t-s-e-n-k-o.
MR. SWALWELL: Where did you meet with Mr. Yatsenko?
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall specifics.
MR. SWALWELL: Why did you meet with Mr. Yatsenko?
MR. PAGE: We were also looking at some opportunities in Kazakhstan.
MR. SWALWELL: What kind of opportunities?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: They were in the process of-MR.
SWALWELL: Who's they?
MR. PAGE: The -- I believe it's called Samruk Kazyna.
MR. SWALWELL: Can you spell that?
MR. PAGE: I believe it's something along the lines of S-a-m-r-u-k K-a-z-y-n-a.
I have worked on a number of private --
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, there's no question.
So· what was the purpose of meeting with Mr. Yatsenko?
MR. PAGE: He's an old friend. He's an old friend and a colleague.
MR. SWALWELL: And it sounds like there was some business that was being
discussed?
128
MR. PAGE: Yes, yeah. Like I mentioned, the Kazakhstan privatization process.
MR. SWALWELL: Where did you meet?
MR. PAGE: We had a -- I can't recall exactly because I spend a fair amount of time
in London, and so I can't recall that trip. But --
MR. SWALWELL: How many nights did you stay in London?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall exactly,·probably around --
MR. SWALWELL: Was it more than one?
MR. PAGE: -- three. Yeah, it was probably more than one.
MR. SWALWELL: Was it more than five?
MR. PAGE: No. Probably somewhere between one and five.
MR. SWALWELL: Who paid for you to go to London?
MR. PAGE: I paid for everything. Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Where did you stay?
MR. PAGE: At some hotel. I can't recall exactly.
UNCLASSIFIED
129
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: Is there a hotel that you always stay at when you're in London?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SWALWELL: You said that there was a hotel you always stay at when you're
in Russia.
MR. PAGE: And part of the reason -- I don't stay at -- particularly in the U,S'I
particularly given the terrorist threats against me -MR.
SWALWELL: Okay. Dr. Page--
MR. PAGE: -- I move my location frequently.
MH. SWALWELL: -- again, I'm going to ask you to just stick to the question.
So who else was present when you met with Mr. Yatsenko in London?
MR. PAGE: We met with a few people.
MR. SWALWELL: How many people?
MR. PAGE: I had a meeting with the Ambassador.
MR. SWALWELL: Which ambassador?
MR. PAGE: The Kazakh Ambassador to the U.K.
MR. SWALWELL: Who else was there?
MR. PAGE: I can't --
MR. SWALWELL: Did the Ambassador have an aide?
MR. PAGE: Yeah, I believe he had an aide.
MR. SWALWELL: So I count so far you, Mr. Yatsenko, the Ambassador, and an
aide. That's four people. Were there any additional persons?
MR. PAGE: There may have been. I can't recall. They're the most, you
know -- they were classmates in university.
MR. SWALWELL: Classmates of who?
MR. PAGE: Mr. Yatsenko and the Ambassador.
UNCLASSIFIED
130
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: Was the election of 2016 in the United States discussed at all?
MR. PAGE: Just general sentiment, general information that was in the news.
Nothing beyond that.
MR. SWALWELL: Did they know that you had been a foreign policy adviser for the
Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: The main thing they knew-MR.
SWALWELL: Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: They knew it because it was in the news, in this false news and these
defamatory reports. They knew that -- that was the main reason why they knew it, and
that was the main focus in that context of the discussions.
MR. SWALWELL: How long did the meeting last?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
MR. SWALWELL: Was it more than an hour?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SWALWELL: Was it more than 30 minutes?
MR. PAGE: I don't think so.
MR. SWALWELL: Was it breakfast, lunch, or dinner?
MR. PAGE: Well, you know, with Sergey, we may have had multiple meetings.
Again, he's an old friend. I can't -- like you couldn't remember, you know, how many
hours you met with your old friends in last December as well.
MR. SWALWELL: Was the meeting spoken in Russian or English?
MR. PAGE: Mostly English, perhaps some Russian. I try to practice my Russian
when I can.
MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Yatsenko speak Russian?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: How about the Kazakh Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: English. English.
MR. SWALWELL: What business was discussed in this meeting?
131
MR. PAGE: Privatization process. There was a process of privatization now going
on in Kazakhstan. And that's what I had worked on in my years in Russia, is the
privatization process in Russia.
longer.
MR. SWALWELL: Where was Mr. Yatsenko living at the time?
MR. PAGE: London. He has not been back to Russia for many years.
MR. SWALWELL: Have you ever met Mr. Yatsenko in Russia?
MR. PAGE: We -- he was originally--
MR. SWALWELL: Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: Yes. Many years ago. Not in the last 4 years at least, probably
MR. SWALWELL: Was that the first time you had met the Kazakhstan
Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall the exact first time, but no.
MR. SWALWELL: How many times--
MR. PAGE: It may have been, yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: How many times prior to this meeting had you met with the
Kazakhstan Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
MR. SWALWELL: More than five?
MR. PAGE: I probably, in total, metwith him about three or four times. I can't
recall the exact distribution of those meetings.
MR.SWALWELL: Have you ever met the Ambassador for Kazakhstan to
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
London -- try and follow this -- well, first, what's his name? That will be easier.
MR. PAGE: See, my life has been so--
MR. SWALWELL: Well, have you met this individual in Russia before?
MR. PAGE: Never, no. The Kazakh? No, never.
MR. SWALWELL: What followup--
MR. PAGE: The only contact--
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, there's no question.
What followup from this meeting has occurred?
132
MR. PAGE: Nothing has occurred because all of -- because of this terrible situation
I'm in. They don't want to do any -- you know, I was looking to do some help on a
privatization process, similar to a privatization process I've worked in the past. Given this
trolling by state-owned media from the U.S. and these false allegations from the dodgy
dossier --
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, who--
MR. PAGE: -- there is no business currently in consideration.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, who else did you meet with in London?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall who I met with.
MR. SWALWELL: Is it accurate to say that the only meeting you took was this
meeting with Mr. Yatsenko and the Kazakhstan Ambassador to the U.K.?
MR. PAGE: No. As I previously mentioned to you, I was also attending a
conference at the time.
MR. SWALWELL: What other Russian nationals did you meet with in London in
December 2016?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall any Russian individuals.
MR. SWALWELL: Were there more than just Mr. Yatsenko?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: There's a lot of Russians in London, and there may have been -MR.
SWALWELL: That you met with?
MR. PAGE: There may have been -- it was a large energy conference that I
attended, and there may have been some Russians there.
133
Similar to everything I've told you from the'very beginning, which is the absolute
truth, nothing nefarious was ever discussed with any of them, eVer, not only in the last
couple years, throughout any time in my life, which is really, unfortunately-MR.
SWALWELL: So, Dr. Page, other than the meeting you had with Dr. Yatsenko
and the Kazakhstan Ambassador --
MR. PAGE: He's not a doctor. He's just a --
MR.SWALWELL: Dr. Page, other than the meeting you had with Mr. Yatsenko and
the Kazakhstan Ambassador, your testimony to our committee under oath is that you did
not meet with or speak to another Russian national in London.
MR. PAGE: My testimony was just that there may have been some Russians in the
conference that I attended, but I have no recollection of specific --
MR.SWALWELL: So outside of--
MR. PAGE: Again, there were thousands of people, and in Russia
probably ~- there's a pretty good percentage of people that are Russian. So -- and
particularly in an energy context, a lot of Russians. So I would bet money that there were
probably some Russians.
MR.SWALWELL: So, Dr. Page, outside of the Russians who may have been at the
conferenc.e, your testimony to this committee is that the only Russian nationals you met
within London in December 2016 was Mr. Yatsenko in the meeting with Kazakhstan's
Ambassador.
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, that's the case.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: Did you go anywhere after London?
Did you come back to the United States?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
134
MR. SWALWELL: Other than your trip to -- your two trips to Russia and your trip
to London, did you have any other meetings in 2016 in a foreign land with Russian
nationals?
MR. PAGE: In 2016?
MR. SWALWELL: Yes.
So we talked about July 2016.
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: We talked about December 2016. Any other trips in 2016
where you met with, not people who could have been, may have been, might have been at
a conference, people who you spoke with eye-to-eye in a foreign land?
MR. PAGE: I have no direct recollection of any of that. No. Nothing.
MR. SWALWELL: When you told Senator Sessions that you were headed to Russia,
this was July 2016. Is that right?
MR. PAGE: No, I believe that was June.
MR. SWALWELL: It was in June 2016?
MR. PAGE: Well, no, it was, again, the week before, yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: And, at this point, the first tranche of hacked emails had become
public, is that right, in the 2016 election?
.MR. PAGE: What was the date? I'm sorry.
MR. SWALWELL: So when -- you went to the Capitol Hill Club at the end of
June 2016, yes?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
135
UNCLASSIFIED
MR.SWALWELL: At this point, it is now public that DNC emails have been hacked
and that Russia is accused of doing the hacking.
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall the exact timing. Again, it was just things in the news
and things I had nothing to do with, so --
MR.SWALWELL: But you knew enough that going to Russia might cause some
problems because Russia andits connection to Donald Trump was of some controversy.
Is that right?
MR. PAGE: I didnlt foresee any problems, because I never could have imagined
how extraordinarily false the allegations ended up being. So I did not foresee any
problems.
And I also was very careful to be as benign and as, you know -- not -- to go out of
my way to not create problems, right, particularly because, you know -- because, again, 11m
a private citizen and I donlt want to create any unnecessary controversy. And I could
never have imagined this controversy, which was based on complete falsehoods.
MR.SWALWELL: Dr. Page, did Senator Sessions advise you not to go to Russia
when you told him?
MR. PAGE: No. He advised nothing. It was a brief mention in passing about
my -- you know, "Ilm glad I could stop by this dinner because 11m getting ready to head
overseas."
MR.SWALWELL: Were the hacked Clinton or Podesta emails ever discussed when
you were in Russia ·in July 2016 by anyone you talked to?
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of that, no.
MR.SWALWELL: How about in December 2016? Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: I donlt believe so. Again, it was in the news. So, just like tax policy
may have come up, you know, in conversations on Capitol Hill, there may be -- you know,
UNCLASSIFIED
136
UNCLASSIFIED
someone may have mentioned something about it. But I have no recollection. And
certainly no conversations related to any direct activity, because I obviously had no activity.
MR. SWALWELL: There's been some talk in your testimony today about the
dossier, and I just want to now go through it.
MR. PAGE: Great.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you ever speak in 2016, electronically or orally-MR.
SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell, would you yield for a moment--
MR. SWALWELL: I would yield.
MR. SCHIFF: -- before you go through that in greater detail, just before we leave
the trips.
Dr. Page, you mentioned meeting with an
MR. PAGE: _?
MR. SCHIFF: Well, you mentioned.. Maybe I have the wrong •.
MR. PAGE: Nagovitsyn,
MR. SCHIFF: And what is position?
MR. PAGE: He is a -- he's had various roles within Gazprom.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you meet with him in December alone or in July as well?
MR. PAGE: I believe both times.
MR. SCHIFF: And when you met with him in July, where did you meet with him?
MR. PAGE: It may have been -- the only place that comes to mind in both
instances is the Goodman's Steakhouse. So it may have been the same location. If not
then, then -- I've probably had 50 dinners with him over the years. Again, even -- I
worked with him -- he was a client of mine back at l\1errill when I was living there in 2004.
So it's hard for me to say exactly where.
MR. SCHIFF: And what does he do for Gazprom?
UNCLASSIFIED
137
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: He's had various posi,tions over time, but he used to be, similarly, in
the investor relations team.
MR. SCHIFF: So he's investor relations for Gazprom.
MR. PAGE: Previously was, but not anymore. Uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: Was he when you met with him in July?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: What was his position in July?
MR. PAGE: There is a -- see, I can't say, because he's shifted around at various
points, and he's in a new position again. But there was -- at times, he's -- at some point,
he had been in an investment project group.
MR. SCHIFF: Did he have any affiliation with Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: Gazprom and Rosneft are like cross-town rivals. It's like the Mets
and the Yankees. So they're two big companies, and often, as two of the -- just like two
large companies, you know, ExxonMobil and Chevron, a lot of people in ExxonMobii and
Chevron may know various people in the two respective organizations, but if you're
cross-town rivals, you're not really--
UNCLASSIFIED
138
UNCLASSIFIED
[1:55 p.m.]
MR. SCHIFF: So he wasn't working at all with Rosneft then when you met him in
July?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my knowledge, no. But, again, it's the largest Russian
oil company, so there may be some loose affiliation and 11m just, you know --
MR. SCHIFF: And when you met with Mr. Baranov, you met with him in July and
you had lunch with him in December. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And at either meeting, did you discuss a potential sale of a
percentage of Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: There was -- again, it was in the news in each instance. And it goes
back to the point I was telling you earlier about publicly a'vailable information. There was
talks about -- and I can't remember when exactly, because I don't follow Rosneft. It's not'
really a major focus of mine.
But there was a deal that was in the works for some time, which I had nothing to do
with ever and never pitched and he never pitched to me, but that may -- that definitely -- it
definitely came up in the second meeting or in the second -- you know, at the lunch in
December, because it was in the news. It was one of the big headlines, that this deal had
just occurred, which I had nothing --
MR. SCHIFF: And did you --
MR. PAGE: -- nothing to do with whatsoever.
And, again, it's an investor relations person. He talks about things that are in the
market. You know, this is a major market --
MR. SCHIFF: And in July, did you discuss with him the potential sale of a significant
percentage of Rosneft?
UNCLASSIFIED
139
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I don't believe so. He may have mentioned it in passing. I can't
remember the exact timing of when that became public information. There were
definitely rumors of it in the early part of the summer.
MR. SCHIFF: So in --
MR. PAGE: 'There was never any discussion of any -- my involvement in that deal
in any way, shape, or form. ,And, again, the meeting in July--
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page --
MR. PAGE: -- was a -- we were at a soccer game, and so we were watching the
soccer game.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, this is my specific question: Did you or didyou not discuss
with Mr. Baranov in July a potential sale of a significant percentage of Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall any discussion.
MR. SCHIFF: So voumay have, but you don't recall.
MR. PAGE: He may have briefly mentioned it when we were looking up from this
Portugal -- Ronaldo, whoever the -- you know, the goals that are being scored. That may
have come up. But I have no definitive recollection of that. And, certainly, what never
came up, certainly, was my involvement in any -- that type of a transaction.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you ever express -MR.
PAGE: It's inconceivable.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever express support for the idea of lifting U.S. sanctions on
Russia with Mr. Baranov?
MR. PAGE: Not -- not directly. Not directly.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss it indirectly with him?
MR. PAGE: Again, my view is -- you know, live written about this previously, you
know --
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: 11m not asking about your writings.
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
140
MR. SCHIFF: You said that you may have discussed the sale of part of Rosneft with
Mr. Baranov in July.
MR. PAGE: He may have mentioned it to me. I had no discussions.
MR. SCHIFF: He may have mentioned it to you.
MR. PAGE: In passing, uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: In passing. And you may have discussed or mentioned in passing
your support for lifting sanctions on Russia.
MR. PAGE: No, no direct support. Again, sanctions may have come up, which I
thought was your -- did the topic of sanctions --
MR. SCHIFF: Okay. So you may have discussed sanctions and you may have
discussed the sale of a part of Rosneft with him.
MR. PAGE: No, no. He may have mentioned the sale of Rosneft if it was in the
market at the time. But wh~t he didnlt -- there was no definitive discussions about
sanctions, and certainly no -- not even conceivable --
MR. SCHIFF: 11m not asking if there were definitive, Dr. Page, but you seem to be
indicating that you may have had some discussion of sanctions and you may have had
some discussion of the sale of a part of Rosneft with the head of investor relations for
Rosneft, Mr. Baranov. Is that right?
MR. PAGE: I donlt -- if I look back 14 -months, if 11m looking back today 14 months
from now, did someone I talked to in Washington, did we discuss tax policy? Perhaps.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, that's a very--
MR. PAGE: But at that level, at that level --
MR. SCHIFF: -- evasive answer to a simple question.
UNCLASSIFIED
141
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Yeah. No serious discussions about anything--
MR. SCHIFF: But you may have had discussions that you wouldn't characterize as
. serious?
MR. PAGE: The topic -- just like someone may have mentioned tax policy in
November 2017 in Washington, there may have been an analogous brief mention in
Moscow in July 2016. Briefly, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL:' Thank you.
In July 2016, when you were in Russia, may there have been a brief discussion,
analogous to a discussion on tax policy, of hacked Hillary Clinton emails?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SWALWELL: SO you clearly remember that that was not discussed.
MR; PAGE: I -- nothing -- again, the -- I can't recall when that really was in the
major news, but I have no recollection of that. I have no recollection of that.
MR. SWALWELL: And in December--
MR. PAGE: What I know for certain is I never brought anything up and no one
ever asked me anything in terms of proactive specific steps related to sanctions. Nothing
even remotely related to the allegations in the January 6 DN I report. Nothing even
remotely close to that.
Again, there may have been something that came up, you know, in a news context.
But in terms of any direct involvement by either myself or anyone I spoke with, zero. And
I can say that definitively beyond a doubt.
MR. SWALWELL: Thank you, Dr. Page.
Do you know a Mr. Divyekin? D-i-v-y-e-k-i-n.
MR. PAGE: I had never even heard the name until it was in the -- I got the
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
first -- the first time I heard his name --
MR. SWALWELL: Do you know a person named Mr. Divyekin? Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: No.
142
MR. SWALWELL: And I just want to be clear. Do you know an individual named
report.
? Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: The name vaguely rings a bell but maybe because it was in some news
MR. SWALWELL: I'm asking your personal knowledge.
MR. PAGE: Personal knowledge, no.
The first time I heard of Divyekin's name was on July 26, 2016, when a reporter
from The Wall Street Journal, you know, asked me this question and said he had received
information that -- he said, "We're told you met with Igor Sechin during your Moscow trip."
And then he went on to say, "We are also told you recently met with a senior Kremlin
official" --
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, it was a yes-or-no question. I appreciate you
answering it.
MR. PAGE: Yes. But that was the only time I heard his name.
MR. SWALWEL1L: Dr. Page, aside from direct involvement with sanctions,
regarding your conversation with Mr. Schiff, did you share your opinion as a scholar of U.S.
policy of sanctions on Russia in July 2016?
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of that. And if I did, it would have been
similarly in passing. But what I made clear is ! have no position on that.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, how about in December 2016, did you, while in Russia,
share your opinion as a scholar of U.S. policy on sanctions in Russia?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
UNCLASSIFIED
143
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: So you might have.
MR. PAGE: Perhaps. Again, speaking as a private citizen, as I had all along, and
never offering or never being asked anything in any way, shape, or form related to the
Trump campaign in terms of that particular topic, or the Trump, you know--
MR. SWALWELL: ,Did you sign a nondisclosure agreement when you joined the
Trump team? '
MR. PAGE: Yes, but I don't have a copy of that, as I mentioned.
MR. SWALWELL: When did you sign that?
MR. PAGE: Somewhere around in March, I believe.
MR. ROONEY: We're going to take a 5-minute break.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay.
[Recess.]
MR. ROONEY: All right. Let's go back in.
Are you ready, Dr. Page?
MR. PAGE: Yes, sir.
MR. ROONEY: I just wanted to clarify. You had said something along the lines of
2 o'clock. We did have a 2 o'clock --
MR. PAGE: I heard we're going to be delayed. I'm fine.
MR. ROONEY: Yeah. Okay.
MR. PAGE: However long -- I want to help you guys however I can.
MR. ROON EY: Right.
MR. PAGE: Go for it. I'm--
MR. ROONEY: And hopefully it's not as long as, you know, conceivably possible.
MR. PAGE: Sure.
MR. ROONEY: But I just wanted you to be aware that that is--
UNCLASSIFIED
144
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Thank you for that.
MR. ROONEY: And then we have votes. And, you know, if youlre still needed,
weill come back. But I appreciate you -MR.
PAGE: 11m happy to help.
MR. ROONEY: Yes.
MR. PAGE: And I think it's important that we get to the bottom of this-MR.
ROONEY: I agree.
MR. PAGE: -- particularly the main points in my opening statement.
MR. ROONEY: Okay.
MR. PAGE: Because that is the big issue.
MR. ROONEY: Gotcha.
And I have to read this again, right?
Without objection, the chair and the ranking member will be permitted to question
the witness for an additional 30 minutes each and may yield to other members at their
discretion.
Mr. Swalwell.
MR. SWALWELL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Dr. Page, during the course of the campaign, did you ever meet Paul Manafort?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. SWALWELL: Have you ever spoken to Paul Manafort?
MR. PAGE: I have never spoken to Paul Manafort.
MR. SWALWELL: Have you ever electronically communicated with Mr. Manafort?
MR. PAGE: There--
MR. SWALWELL: Yes or no?
MR. PAGE: Just once, to the best of my recollection.
UNCLASSIFIED
145
UNCLASSIFIED
MR.SWALWELL: When was that?
MR. PAGE: When the dodgy dossier articles started coming out, I can't remember
exactly, sometime over the summer, one of The New York Times reporters sent an email to
him and me. So -'- and he had -- I think what had happened, to the best of my
recollection, is he was asking me some questions, you know, related to the campaign stuff
and also, I believe, kind of -- eventually, the same reporter asked me about, sort of, the
dodgy dossier accusations.
But when he asked me ,anything campaign-related, I'm like, I'm an informal, you
know, junior adviser; if you have questions, you know, you ought to ask someone senior in
the campaign. So that's how --
MR.SWALWELL: Going back to that NDA, I just want to understand, which
campaign official asked you to sign it in March 2016?
MR. PAGE: See, I'm not comfortable with saying that, because I don't know the
terms of that agreement, and I don't want to create any problems for him. So -MR.
SWALWELL: Mr. Chairman, can you order the witness to answer the
question?
MR. ROONEY: Can you repeat it?
MR.SWALWELL: Which campaign official asked you to sign the nondisclosure
agreement?
MR. ROONEY: It's a routine question we've been asking every witness that has
come through, so I don't see what the problem with that is.
MR. PAGE: But the only problem is that I don't know the terms and conditions of
my NDA, so I don't want to violate that, because I never got a copy--
MR.SWALWELL: Congress trumps the NDA.
MR. ROONEY: I don't know about that.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
You can answer the question. I was wrong.
MR.SWALWELL: I didn't mean it--
MR. ROONEY: No, that's fine. That's why I got this guy.
MR. PAGE: I should answer the question, yes?
MR. ROONEY: Yes.
MR. PAGE: Sam Clovis.
MR.SWALWELL: When did you first meet Sam Clovis?
146
MR. PAGE: The day that I had that very brief interaction with Corey Lewandowski
when he was doing a million things. He says, well, sorry, I'm busy -- you know, we had a
brief conversation. He said, well, I'm busy, let me introduce you to Sam Clovis, who's
sitting -- and he was sitting in the next room. So he introduced us, and then we had a
chat.
MR.SWALWELL: Was that at Trump Tower?
MR. PAGE: Yes, it was.
MR.SWALWELL: What did Mr. Clovis ask you to do?
MR. PAGE: He didn't ask me to do anything, to the best of my recollection. He
was -- we just were meeting for the first time and -MR.
SWALWELL: He presented you with an NDA, though?
MR. PAGE: No, not then. Again, that was, I believe, in March.
MR.SWALWELL: What month was it that you first met Mr. Clovis?
MR. PAGE: That was January, that first meeting with Mr. Lewandowski in early
January.
MR.SWALWELL: And when did you next see him?
MR. PAGE: I can't remember the exact time, but we had meetings from time to
time, or I got --
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: How many meetings did you have'with Mr. Clovis before he
asked you to sign an NDA?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall specifically. There might not have been any.
remember I had a phone call with him at some point, but --
MR. SWALWELL: Where were you when he asked you to sign the NDA?
MR. PAGE: We were having breakfast in northern Virginia.
MR. SWALWELL: Where?
MR. PAGE: . One of the hotels out, sort of-- I get -- sort of north. I'm not a
northern Virginia person, but it's somewhere, kind of Falls Church area. I don't recall
exactly.
MR. SWALWELL: Who else was with you?
MR. PAGE: Just the two of us.
MR. SWALWELL: Was the meeting at his request or yours?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall, but--
MR. SWALWELL: How did the NDA come up?
147
MR. PAGE: Well, he said that we're in the process of putting together this
committee -- to the best of my recollection, we're in the process of putting this committee,
and, you know, you can be a part of it, and this is an NDA which is part of that.
I don't recall. Again, it was a year and a half ago, and the world has changed
completely for me between now and then, so I don't -- I don't recall specifics, but words to
that effect.
MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Clovis tell you whether anyone else was involved in the
drafting of the NDA?
MR. PAGE: No, not that I recall.
MR. SWALWELL: Did he tell you --
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: And I've signed hundreds of NDAs. I-MR.
SWALWELL:· Dr. Page, just to that question.
MR. PAGE: It's a blur to me. I have no idea.
148
MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Clovis tell you what he would do with the NDA once you
signed it?
MR. PAGE: He said that it would be countersigned and I'd get a copy back, but I
never got a copy back.
MR. SWALWELL: Countersigned by whom?
MR. PAGE: I!m not sure. Whoever's name was on that, and I don't recall.
MR. SWALWELL: Was it Michael Cohen's?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall. I have no idea.
I've signed hundreds of NDAs. They are all a blur to me. It's kind of standard.
MR. SWALWELL: You've signed hundreds of NDAs?
. MR. PAGE: Over the years, probably. Probably.
MR. SWALWELL: Probably or yes?
MR. PAGE: I can say definitively I've signed at least -- it feels like hundreds, but
I've done, you know, signed at least -- I think it's safe to say at least 50. But, you know,
it's sort of -- they're relatively procedural. It's like a "how many subpoenas have you
issued" kind of thing.
MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Clovis speak to you about anyone else he had met with
and asked to sign an NDA?
MR. PAGE: I believe the only context of the NDA is just my NDA. He may have
mentioned some other people who he was also talking to at the time, but I can't recall.
MR. SWALWELL: We've been with you since about 9:30. Has there been any
part of your testimony today that you have withheld an answer or not been forthcoming in
UNCLASSIFIED
149
UNCLASSIFIED
your.response to a question because you believed it may violate the NDA that you signed?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, no. The only thing I may be cautious
about is my recollection not being able to match the recollection of what IS been illicitly
wiretapped and hacked off my computer systems based on the, you know, alleged FISA
warrant. So thatls my only concern that's in the back of my head.
MR.SWALWELL: As youlve testified to us today, though, or as youlve spoken with
special counselor other congressional committees, have you had the NDA in your mind,
that you may be in violation of it because of something you say?
MR. PAGE: Yes, in the context of I know -- always in the back of my head, I bear in
mind thatno one has had a worse impact on the Trump campaign than myself, bearing in
mind the dodgy dossier started with this guy. And all of these controversies, they came
after me first, for whatever reason. And it will come out in time, but -- so, in that context,
11m cautious, because live already done so much damage, unfortunately, through no fault
of my own, based on things that I could never have even imagined. 11m just cautious that
anything I might say might create more damage to people who are already damaged.
MR.SWALWELL: Does that mean that truthful testimony that you might provide
might create damage?
MR. PAGE: No. No. I only tell the truth. And, again, every -- what I can tell
you definitively, everything I have ever said and done with anyone even remotely involved
in the Trump campaign or even the Trump movement has been completely benign and
aboveboard. Again, 11m a policy guy; we had discussions along those lines. It IS more just
personal impact. No -- therels no -- there has definitively been no illegal activity by myself
or anyone that I ever saw.
MR.SWALWELL: Dr. Page, when was the next time you saw Sam Clovis after you
signed the N DA?
UNCLASSIFIED
150
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: . I can't recall th~ exact timing.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you see him again before you went to Moscow?
MR. PAGE: Probably at some point. I just can't place when was -- where -- the
wheres and whens.
MR. SWALWELL: Did Mr. Clovis know you were going to Moscow prior to your
going to Moscow?
MR. PAGE: I believe I probably mentioned it to him, yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: How would you have mentioned it to him?
MR. PAGE: You know, he -- I can't recall specifically, but I think he
probably -- again, it was so benign, and it was understood that it's unrelated to the
campaign, so, you know -- to be honest with you, no real interest, you know, no -- I mean,
again, it was --
MR. SWALWELL: But your testimony today, Dr. Page, is that you had told
Mr. Clovis that you were going to Moscow prior to going to Moscow in July 2016.
MR. PAGE: I might--
MR. SWALWELL: Yes or no?
MR. PAGE: I might have. I can't recall.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you speak with Mr. Clovis about your trip to Moscow
in July 2016 after you returned?
MR. PAGE: I did, because I saw him at the Republican National Convention, and I
was just shocked about how much -- these false stories and allegations had already begun
at that point, so it definitely came up. I remember that, those kind of general exchanges,
yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you see Ambassador Kislyak at the RepublicanConvention?
MR. PAGE: We had a few brief interactions. I saw him, yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: And by a brief interaction, you mean that you were in each
other's presence. Is that right? Yes?
151
MR. PAGE: We were in each other's presence in meetings where there were a
hundred other people in our mutual presence, approximately, give or take. You know, I
may be exaggerating, but at least, at least -- every meeting I was at with him in my entire
life, there were many dozens of people in that same meeting. And, again, it goes back to
my conversation with --
MR. SWALWELL: Well, Dr. Page, let's just focus on this. You spoke with
Ambassador Kislyak at the convention directly. Is that correct?
or no.
MR. PAGE: Briefly.
MR. SWALWELL: And he spoke back to you. Is that correct?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: Okay. Did you speak about U.S. sanctions against Russia? Yes
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. Again, something may have come up in passing.
MR. SWALWELL: What do you mean, "in passing"? You were, by your definition,
in passing already.
MR. PAGE: I'm cautious because, the way tax policy might, you know--
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, yes or no, did you speak with Ambassador Kislyak at
the Republican Convention about sanctions?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall talking with him about sanctions, no.
MR. SWALWELL: But you could have, in passing.
MR. PAGE: In passing, it may have briefly come up in some context, but--
MR. SWALWELL: Did the topic of Secretary Clinton's emailsorhackedDNCemai.ls
come up in conversation or in passing in your chat with Ambassador Kislyak?
UNCLASSIFIED
152
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I have no recollection of that. And I would say a definitive "no" if I
wasnlt factoring in the point that it was in the news. 50, in some context, someone may
have mentioned it somehow.
MR.5WALWELL: 11m not asking about someone, Dr. Page. 11m saying, when you
spoke with Ambassador Kislyak, did you or he, to each other, talk about hacked democratic
emails?
MR. PAGE: Not -- no. To the best of my recollection, no.
MR.5WALWELL: Was that the first time you had'spoken directly with Ambassador
Kislyak?
MR. PAGE: The first time is at that convention, yes.
MR.5WALWELL: When was the next time?
MR. PAGE: That was -- actually, the only times I ever spoke with him was at that
convention. Yeah.
In fact, when I first met him, I flew in the first day, and I think, you know, there was
that Global Partners for Diplomacy conference, and I -- there were -- when I first met him,
there was a bunch of ambassadors from around the world, probably about five of us, and a
couple of -~ or five of them -- and a couple speakers in this large conference center, dozens
of people at least, probably closer to a hundred, if 11m guessing correctly. And welre all,
sort of, handing out business cards. I handed around business cards to people; everyone
else handed me business cards. Ambassador Kislyak did not hand me a business card.
50 it was kind of -- it shows, sort of, you know, lack of interest.
MR.5WALWELL: Who else did you observe speak directly to Ambassador Kislyak
at the Republican National Convention?
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall anyone, except for the fact that in the news I saw J.D.
Gordon had mentioned some conversation along those lines, which --
UNCLASSIFIED
153
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, I'm asking about your personal knowledge and your
personal observation.
MR. PAGE: My personal knowledge, which I remembered and I probably wouldn't
have remembered if I hadn't seen it in the news, that J.D. Gordon, he and I were standing
around at a reception one night, you know, and sort of -- with a lot of other people around
us. And, you know, I think J.D. may have said a few things.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you talk to any other foreign ambassadors at the Republican
National Convention -MR.
PAGE: Yes.
MR. SWALWELL: -- directly?
MR. PAGE: There were dozens of--
MR. SWALWELL: Which ones did you directly talk to?
MR. PAGE: Lots. I mean, there were -- some of them were ambassadors, some
were sub-ambassadors. So just, you know, let me run off names or countries I can
remember.
MR. SWALWELL: Well, can you give me a name -MR.
PAGE: India -- yeah?
MR. SWALWELL: -- a name of an ambassador at the Republican National
Convention that you directly, as you did with Ambassador Kislyak, spoke to?
Not in the presence of, not at the same meeting, but you spoke to that ambassador
and that ambassador spoke back to you.
MR. PAGE:' I cannot recall any specific names, partially because, typically, you
know, particularly from people further around the world, that they're not, kind of, John
Doe or Jane Doe-type names. They're, sort of, more complex. So --
MR. SWALWELL: Did Ambassador--
UNCLASSIFIED
154
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: -- I canlt remember -- I canlt remember any specific names. If you '
told me a name, lid be happy to --
MR. SWALWELL: Did Ambassador Kislyak have an aide with him?
MR. PAGE: I did not see an aide, no. I donlt think any of the ambassadors had
aides.
MR. SWALWELL: Did you have any followup conversations with Ambassador
Kislyak after this meeting, by phone or electronically?
MR. PAGE: Never. Never. I had no contact details from him. He had my
contact details, and unless I missed something in the hundreds of emails I get a day, I donlt
believe he ever contacted me.
MR. SWALWELL: Were there any other Russian nationals at the Republican
National Convention who you spoke to directly?
MR. PAGE: I donlt believe so: I have no recollection of that, no.
MR. SWALWELL: In a May 24th, 2016, email to J.D. Gordon, Bates stamped.
, you wrote: "FYI: At the Newark Sky Club, Delta has a private room
when you can have a confidential conversation, but, unfortunately, no such luck at
Third-World LaGuardia. So IIII mostly be on receive mode, since there are a significant
number of people in the lounge. Rather than saying too much, 1111 just refer to the seven
points on my list which I sent last night. II
Do you remember sending that correspondence to Mr. Gordon?
MR.PAGE: Vaguely remember.
MR. SWALWELL: Reading the email, does it refresh yo.ur recollection?
MR. PAGE: Slightly. Yeah.
MR. SWALWELL: Why did you feel it was necessary to withhold information
during the call?
UNCLASSIFIED
155
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No, I'm saying I'm in a big public place, right? I don't know what he
wants to talk about. I think -- I don't -- oh, it ends here. I forget who initiated the call.
I believe he might have.
So all I'm saying, if there's anything that might be confidential, I can't talk publicly.
Again, I'm· cautious just out of respect for people and respect for confidentiality. There
was nothing specific I had in mind in terms of that conversation.
MR. SWALWELL: Had you ever used the Delta Sky Club for a private room
conversation before?
MR. PAGE: In my life?
MR. SWALWELL: Yes.
MR. PAGE: I've been, you know--
MR. SWALWELL: Well, you demonstrated knowledge of the club and its room.
MR. PAGE: Yeah. So I might have. I have no recollection of that, but, you
know, it's possible. Again, I'm respectful of people's private information, you know.
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page, have you --
MR. PAGE: There may have been some transaction I was working on that you
wouldn't want to talk about, because, you know, again, we're talking about material
nonpublic information. And so ~-
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. Page--
MR. PAGE: -- I might have used it in that context, but never anything
beyond -- nothing in a political context such as that. So --
MR. SWALWELL: Dr. 'Page, have you ever met with a foreign national at the
Newark Sky Club in a private room?
MR. PAGE: Not to my recollection. Nothing that was arranged. Again, there
may be people that -- you're in the lounge and someone walks into it to also have a quiet
UNCLASSIFIED
156
UNCLASSIFIED
spot, because, again, the lounge is pretty busy. But no, sort of, arranged meeting, to the
best of my recollection, yeah.
MR.SWALWELL: Dr. Page, have you ever been in a Delta Newark Sky Club private
room with another individual who you were directly speaking to? Yes or no.
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. I remember, in that -- in the Delta at Newark, I
remember therels -- vaguely remember, maybe a year or two ago, someone was getting
ready to fly somewhere and we had a little chat. So thatls about it, though.
MR.SWALWELL: Were they flying to Russia?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall, no. No, I donlt remember any Russia
conversation. 11m pretty sure they're American. Again, 11m just being careful.
MR.SWALWELL: Dr. Page, in a campaign email the committee received from
Donald Trump for President, Bates stamped , sent on May 5th, 2016, to
Walid Phares and J.D. Gordon,. you wrote that, in addition to them contacting you via cell
phone or iMessage, in quotations, "P.S. I forgot to mention that I also have the Middle
East staple of_ as well. So thatls another global connectivity alternative if you
want to get in touch there," end quote.
MR. PAGE: Wait. You said this is to Donald Trump? There was no
Donald Trump --
MR.SWALWELL: . No, to Walid Phares and J.D. Gordon. It was received by the
committee from Donald Trump for President.
MR. PAGE: No, 11m saying I had --like I was alluding to for the_ -- that
wasnlt a reference to the Middle East equivalent of. 11m just saying a lot of people in the
Middle East use _ Thatls what I was -- are you insinuating that -MR.
SWALWELL: Well, why was it relevant to include the Middle East?
MR. PAGE: Because 11m just saying, you know, a lot of people use it there.
UNCLASSIFIED
157
UNCLASSIFIED
Again, it's just a nothing comment in passing, and people chat like that.
And, again, the main advantage of_ is, instead of spending, you know, 50
cents a text when youlre sending a dozen texts, it's all free other than the $l-a-year
subscription rate.
MR.SWALWELL: Dr. Page, will you commit to provide this committee any
communications, including
relevant to our investigation?
, or any other communications you used,
MR. PAGE: Relevant to your investigation, there are none, because live done
literally --.1 mean, everything welre talking about is -- has no -- cannot even be deemed as
close to having any even unethical, let alone illegal, activity. I mean, maybe -- please
remind me of something if 11m missing it. But, literally, Iwas a junior, unpaid adviser, and
there's nothing -- you know, the only thing relevant is these now-public court filings of
what the real interference was in the 2016 election and the extraordinary impact that this
has had on myself, my family, my friends, my colleagues. So --
MR.SWALWELL: Chairman, 11m going to yield back to the ranking member.
MR. SCHIFF: I thank the gentleman.
Dr. Page, 11m going to go through a few items. And the shorter your answer, the
better; we can move more quickly. And some of these may be "don't know them, never
heard of them," "know them, never had a meeting with them." The shorter and more
direct you can be, the quicker we can get through it.
MR. PAGE: Can I just put a caveat, that some names I might not recall. Please
add the caveat on each of these names, there may be people who I might have met in
passing who I can't come up with.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, you can clarify as you answer-MR.
PAGE: Okay.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: -- whether you recall or not.
Have you had any interaction with Jared Kushner?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. SCHIFF: So you've never met him?
MR. PAGE: Never met him.
MR. SCHIFF: And never communicated via email or other platform with him?
158
MR. PAGE: No. Again, I'm cautious as I may have been cc'd with something, but
. not to my knowledge, no.
MR. SCHIFF: And General Flynn, Mike Flynn?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. SCHIFF: No communications orally or in writing with him?
MR. PAGE: No.'
MR. SCHIFF: What about Rick Dearborn?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: And by "no," you mean no communications in writing or in person?
MR. PAGE: There was -- if I'm not mistaken -- again, I don't have any relationship
or don't really know him. But there was one of the people within the Manafort group
who I briefly said hello to at the speech in North Dakota in May 2016. So I'm cautious.
Anything Manafort-related, that was my most interaction, and it was a brief passing, you
know --
MR. SCHIFF: Do you have some reason to believe that's Rick Dearborn?
MR. PAGE: No, but I believe it was someone in the Manafort, you know, world.
MR. SCHIFF: Are you referring to Mr. Gates?
MR. PAGE: It may have been Gates, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: So you may have met Gates?
UNCLASSIFIED
159
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Very briefly. I had no serious interaction, you know. Any
interaction I may have had with him was a brief hello before then-candidate Trump went
on stage. You know, we were all filing in. I met one of those guys. I can't remember
which one.
MR. SCHIFF: Okay,but let's just stick, again, to the question.
MR. PAGE: Please.
MR. SCHIFF: Rick Dearborn, never met, no communication that youlre aware of.
MR. PAGE: I don't believe so, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Okay.
And in terms of Jeff Sessions, only that one interaction in person as youlre leaving
the Republican club and no other communication in person or in writing with Mr. Sessions?
MR. PAGE: No. I tried to -- the big controversy about him -- he was in that same
. convention at the Case Western Reserve in Cleveland. He gave a keynote speech there.
I tried to say hello. There were tons of people around, and it was impossible. And that
was actually -- it's become a national controversy because I saw him speaking briefly to
Ambassador Kislyak. And so that's -- that was -- that was it, you know.
MR. SCHIFF: And so, 11m sorry, I just want to make sure that welre talking about
the same time and place. So you saw Attorney General Sessions speaking with
Ambassador Kislyak during the Republican Convention?
MR. PAGE: In passing, in a big group of people, as he was running out the door,
late. He Hnished his speech late, he was late to another meeting, and he was saying hello
to a lot of people. And I didn't want to add to the, you know, the delays he's already
experiencing, so --
MR. SCHIFF: And were you privy to anything that he said to the Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: No. Although alii could see is that there were a lot of people
UNCLASSIFIED
160
UNCLASSIFIED
standing around, and it was, again, another brief greeting, from what I could see.
MR. SCHIFF: And that was the only interaction you saw between the Attorney
General and the Russian Ambassador at -MR.
PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: -- that event or any other?
MR. PAGE: Exactly. Yes. And that was the only other time, to the best of my
recollection, live ever been in the same room with him. The first dinner in June, and then
he was the keynote speaker at one of the events.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, you mentioned having lunch with Sam Clovis. Was this
shortly after you were made a foreign policy adviser to the (:ampaign?
MR. PAGE: Lunch? I may have had a dinner with him. I canlt recall. Did I say
a lunch?
MR. SCHIFF: Well, you mentioned -- I thought it was a lunch, but you tell me.
You mentioned having a meal with Sam Clovis.
MR. PAGE: Oh, we were talking about in the context of the NDA, right?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: I had a breakfast with him somewhere in northern Virginia, sort of
Falls Church-ish area.
MR. SCHIFF: So you had a breakfast with him in Falls Church.
MR. PAGE: Yes, something like that.
MR. SCHIFF: And that was around what timeframe?
MR. PAGE: March-ish.
MR. SCHIFF: And what did you discuss at the breakfast, apart from the NDA?
MR. PAGE: General foreign policy topics. Kind of, he would update me on
what IS happening at the campaign at the time, which is ancient history, so I have no
UNCLASSIFIED
161
UNCLASSIFIED
recollection of specifics, but --
MR. SCHIFF: Do you recall discussing with him your views on Russia?
MR. PAGE: Not specifically, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Do you remember discussing it generally?
MR. PAGE: I have no direct recollection. Again, I have a background in Russia, so
I wouldn't be surprised if it came up, but I have no recollection of specifics, no.
MR. SCHIFF: And that would've been early in the campaign. What--
MR. PAGE: Yeah, before we were announced, right? Because that was -- you
know, the announcement --
MR. SCHIFF: . What guidance did he give you as to what role you would play in the
campaign?
MR. PAGE: Just that they were putting together this committee and, you know,
would be open -- you know, offering me the opportunity to participate in that. That
was --
MR. SCHIFF: And you were referred to Mr. Clovis by Mr. Lewandowski?
MR. PAGE: Yeah, when we had that brief discussion, he's -- Mr. Lewandowski's
handling a bunch of things. He says, you know, let me introduce you to Sam Clovis.
well?
yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And subsequent to that lunch, you had dinner with Mr. Clovis as
MR. PAGE: I can't remember when that was, but at some point we eventually did,
MR. SCHIFF: And would that have been before or after your trip to Russia?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
MR. SCHIFF: During the dinner, was it just the two of you for dinner?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
162
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And you can't recall whether you had the dinner before or after you
went to Russia?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall, yeah. Again, any discussion I had regarding Russia was
primarily the false allegations, you know, in terms of -- but I think that was mostly at the
Republican National Convention.
MR. ROONEY: Okay. That's the latest 30 minutes.
I just want to read what our agreement was.
The witness is reminded that he is appearing today pursuant to a subpoena and
may refuse to answer questions only to preserve a testimonial privilege.
As clearly stated in the instructions accompanying your subpoena, neither the U.S.
House of Representatives nor the committee recognizes any purported nondisclosure
privileges associated with the common law, including attorney-client privilege, attorney
work product protections.
As clearly stated in the instructions accompanying the subpoena, neither the U.S.
House of Representatives nor the committee recognizes any purported contractual
privileges, including those supposedly deriving from nondisclosure agreements.
So I just wanted to read you that to be clear, because --
MR. PAGE: Okay. I understand that. It was just out of common
courtesy because --
MR. ROONEY: I understand. I just wanted to make sure that we were all on the
same page.
MR. PAGE: Thank you.
MR. ROONEY: We apparently will be called to vote in less than 10 minutes.
We'll keep with the 3D-minute time, but just so that -- if I'm the only Republican here and
we adjourn, I will claim the time and yield to you. And then if I have to claim it back to go
UNCLASSIFIED
163
UNCLASSIFIED
on break -- or we can just go to 5 minutes and keep doing that. But I think keeping it at
30 minutes and my time that I'm yielding to you would be better. Because if I leave, you
can't continue, I think, so -- right?
MR. SCHIFF: Yeah, I think we should just keep up the 3D/3D, and you can yield if
you don't have questions.
MR. ROONEY: Okay. All right. It's my time, and we'll start the 3D-minute clock.
And I will yield to Mr. Schiff.
MR. SCHIFF: I thank the gentleman for yielding.
So, just to get back to the dinner with Mr. Clovis, do you recall discussing your
Russia trip with him? That might help set the timeframe.
MR. PAGE: I really can't recall. The only conversations I recall is telling him
about these crazy allegations that have come out. So I can't --
MR. SCHIFF: And the crazy allegations came out after your Russia trip?
MR. PAGE: There were some before as well, but -- you know, again, the first main
allegation was from July 26, 2016, when The Wall Street Journal called me asking about
Sechin and --
trip?
MR. SCHIFF: Okay. So that would have been after your trip.
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: So your dinner, then, with Mr. Clovis would have been after your
MR. PAGE: I'm saying, you know, if it came up. You're asking if Russia, those
allegations came up. If it happened then, then it might have, but I have no recollection.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss with Mr. Clovis, either during that dinner or any
subsequent time, the outreach and insights you obtained from the Presidential
administration figures or Russian parliamentary figures?
UNCLASSIFIED
164
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I don't believe so, other than the general positive sentiment in terms
of general improvements of relationships. There was nothing beyond that in terms of
core substance. All publicly available information that you could he'ar from, if you read
Russian, opening any Russian newspaper. There's some hope along those lines.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, Dr. Page, you were promising the campaign something quite
different in writing. Did you ever, with either Mr. Clovis or anyone else affiliated with the
Trump campaign, share the outreach and insights you referred to in your memoranda to
the campaign?
MR. PAGE: Not to my recollection, because it was right around that time that I
started getting -- both myself and other members of the campaign started getting a ton of
questions related to these false allegations about Igor Sechin and Divyekin meetings which
never occurred.
MR. SCHIFF: So the answer is no -MR.
PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: -- then. You never shared the insights and outreach that you had
referred to in your memo to the campaign.
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, no. And, again, if I had, the only thing
I would have had to tell them was publicly available information that's quite w'ell-known.
But -- yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: Who else did you communicate with from the campaign after your
Russia trip?
MR. PAGE:' Our committee would get together from time totime or have phone
calls from time to time. I can't recall specifics surrounding that.
MR. SCHIFF: And in any of those get-togethers or phone calls, did
Mr. Papadopoulos discuss his interactions with Russians or those affiliated with the Russian
UNCLASSIFIED
165
UNCLASSIFIED
Government?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection, I believe the last time I saw him in
person was that dinner in June 2016. I don't believe I have ever -- again, I'm cautious that
he may have come through somewhere in passing or been on a phone call or stopped by
one of the meetings. I'm almost positive that that never occurred and June 2016 is the
last time I actually ever briefly spoke to him at all.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any conversations regarding Russia or your interactions
there with Walid Phares?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. I may have, but -- most of my -- I remember
talking about Iraq a lot. The main conversation --
MR. SCHIFF: Well, I'm not asking about Iraq.
MR. PAGE: I don't -- the only conversations I can recall with Walid was his area of
expertise of the Middle East. I don't recall any Russia conversations.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have--
MR. PAGE: There may have been some interaction between Russia, you know,
given, sort of, Russia's involvement in the Middle East. That may have come up, but I
can't remember any specifics.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any conversations about Russia with Lieutenant
General Keith Kellogg?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And what was the nature of those discussions?
MR. PAGE: It was about the news that was -- and these false allegations that were
already coming out against me.
MR. SCHIFF: And did he playa similar role that you were on the campaign, as a
foreign policy adviser?
UNCLASSIFIED
166
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: He was much more -- you know, our team -- he was a much more
senior, experienced person, you know, a retired general. So that's the main distinction.
MR. SCHIFF: How often did you interact with him?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall the exact number of times, but-MR.
SCHIFF: And did you discuss your Russia trip with him?
MR. PAGE: I recall telling him about -- the only recollection I can recall is the false
allegations when these reports came out. I don't recall any other specifics beyond that,
no.
MR. SCHIFF: And where would you have had this conversation?
MR. PAGE.: He had a party at his house one night in northern Virginia.
MR. SCHIFF: In what month?
MR. PAGE: Sometime in the summer. I believe it was post-convention, if I'm not
mistaken.'
MR. SCHIFF: And did you tell General Kellogg that you had met with a
representative from Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: No, because he's an old friend. There would be nothing to tell,
because it's like me telling someone that I met someone who I knew from 10 years ago.
There was no substantive -- there would be nothing to tell him because there was nothing
substantively discussed in July.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you tell him about any interactions you had had with members of
the Presidential administration or Russian Duma?
MR. PAGE: No, I have no recollection of that. You know, again, the only thing I
might have said is just generally positive, you know, feelings.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have interaction with Rear Admiral Chuck Kubic?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
UNCLASSIFIED
167
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And when did you interact with him?
MR. PAGE: He attended some of the meetings. Itls hard for me to say, when
there are meetings, like, trying to remember who was at what committee meeting. Itls
hard to -- sometimes you might not recall the exact roll call. But I donlt know exactly
which ones he went to and which he didnlt, but he was there from time to time.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you discuss with him your interactions during your trip to
Moscow?
MR. PAGE: Not that I have any recollection of.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you discuss Russia at all with him?
. MR. PAGE: I donlt recall ever talking with him about Russia.
MR. SCHIFF: And what about Major General Bert Mizusawa? Did you interact
with him at all?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And the same question. Did you have any conversation with him
about Russia?
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall any specific conversations. We talked about foreign
policy frequently. Russia is a country in the world, and so it probably came up. But I
have no definitive conversations about anything, because --
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any discussions with him or the others live asked you
about about lifting sanctions on Russia?
MR. PAGE: Nothing definitive. Again, nothing beyond, sort of, general policy
context. Nothing related to any quid pro quo or offer or request.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you have any discussions with any of these members of the
Trump foreign advisory team about whether the Russians possessed the hacked Hillary
Clinton emails?
UNCLASSIFIED
168
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No. No, I don't -- I don't -- the only thing that may have come up is
things we read about in the newspaper. I had no inside information about any of that.
So the only thing that may have been there is, something that possibly came up in the
news, but that's -- that's alii know, that's alii ever knew. I can't imagine anything beyond
that, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Tera Dahl, I think, was one of the people that was on your email that
included the document about your trip to Russia. Did you ever have any conversation
with her about your trip?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. The most I saw her, she was around for some of
those meetings and the convention. But she was, again, pretty, you know -- there's a
hundred people in the room, give or take, so -- talking to a lot of different people.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any interaction with Ambassador Richard Burt?
MR. PAGE: I met him briefly once. I can't remember when that was. It may
have been across town here at the Atlantic Council. I think that's the only time I ever met
him. And if 11m not mistaken, I went to an event there December 2016, after the election.
MR. SCHIFF: The first meeting youlve described with Ambassador Burt, was that
during the campaign?
MR. PAGE: No, 11m saying that was the only meeting I ever recall ever interacting
with him. That was after the campaign, December of 2016, at a conference, similarly
where there's dozens of people.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you attend the President's speech at the Mayflower Hotel?
MR. PAGE: No. I was in Dubai that night.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss with anyone on the campaign what has come to
be referred to as the Trump Tower meeting between Donald Trump, Jared Kushner, Paul'
Manafort, and several Russians or Russian Americans?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: The first time I ever heard about that was when it came out in the
press, and, to the best of my recollection, that's been within the last couple of months.
169
So I didn't know anything about it in 2016, let's put it that way. I think that was over the
summer that that news came out.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you ever had any interaction with Natalia Veselnitskaya?
MR. PAGE: I don't believe so, no.
MR. SCHIFF: What about Aras Agalarov?
MR. PAGE: I don't think so, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Emin Agalarov?
MR. PAGE:. I don't think so.
Again, the main distinction between "I don't think SOli and a very definitive "no" is
who knows if at some point, again, in another big conference or something you may have
briefly said hello to someone. So I'm almost positive no. I'm just adding that additional
caveat on there to be completely comprehensive.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you ever had any interaction with Rinat Akhmetshin?
MR. PAGE: No. Not to my knowledge, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Or Ike Kaveladze?
MR. PAGE: I don't believe so, no.
MR. SCHIFF: In a May 16th, 2016, email from you to Walid Phares and J.D.
Gordon --
MR. PAGE: Does someone have a copy?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes. The Bates stamp is You state -- and we'll
bring you this -- liAs discussed, my strategy in order to keep in sync with the media
relations guidelines of the campaign has been to make my key messages as low-key and
apolitical as possible. But after seeing the principal's tweet," meaning presumably Donald
UNCLASSIFIED
170
UNCLASSIFIED
Trump, "a few hours ago in response to the cocky lin politics and in life, ignorance is not a
virtuel quote by the same speaker at Rutgers yesterday, I got another idea. If held like to
take my place and raise the temperature a little bit, of course lid be more than happy to
yield this honor to him."
Are you talking about the honor of going to Russia?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. And the idea there was bearing in mind Barack Obamals
speech as a candidate in Germany 2008. That was what I was envisioning.
MR. SCHIFF: 11m just asking you -- so you were proposing that candidate Trump go
to Russia instead of you. This was a proposal you were suggesting in May of last year.
MR. PAGE: It was an idea.
MR. SCHIFF: Were you aware that Mr. Papadopoulos was also encouraging the
President to travel to Russia?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: So the --
MR. PAGE: Other than -- the only thing, which I totally had forgotten about, was
the email that Tom Hamburger from The Washington Post told me about in August 2017
that he had sent -- that Papadopoulos had sent around in March of 2017 that was ignored
and, you know, no one --
MR. SCHIFF: This is --
MR. PAGE: -- really took any interest, and I certainly didnlt take any interest.
MR. SCHIFF: This is May 2016.
MR. PAGE: Yeah. And that was not--
MR. SCHIFF: So, in May 2016, you were unaware that George Papadopoulos was
also suggesting the President go to Russia?
MR. PAGE: The only -- yeah, I didnlt know anything about that. Again, I was on
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
an email chain a long time ago that was --
MR. SCHIFF: So two of you foreign policy advisers to the President,
independently, are recommending the President go to Russia.
MR. PAGE: I had no coordination with him on that, no.
171
MR. SCHIFF: And two of you, quite independently, are in communication with
professors with connections to Russia.
MR. PAGE: Totally independently. Again, the professors and the, sort
of -- having been a scholar looking at political economy of the broader region of the former
Soviet Union, I had had long relationships with various scholars there, spoken at many
universities. So what he did is totally separate from what I, you know --
MR. SCHIFF: Now, Dr. Page, you wouldn't be in a position, though, to know
whether, on the Russian end, the same people that were aware of Mr. Papadopoulos'
interest in Russia and the candidate going to Russia were also knowledgeable about your
coming to Russia.
MR. PAGE: That's correct, yes. But, again, everyone that I talked to had no ill
intent and expressed no ill intent, particularly as it relates to any--
MR. SCHIFF: Did you receive a reply from Walid Phares or J.D. Gordon as to your
suggestion?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. Probably not.
MR. SCHIFF: And if we could provide Dr. Page with Bates-stamped document
It's a May 26th, 2016, email to Bernadette Kilroy, who I understand was a foreign
policy adviser as well, ·and J.D. Gordon that states, "I'm planning to speak alongside the
chairman and CEO of Sberbank as we'll both be giving commencement addresses at
Moscow's. New Economic School on July 8."
UNCLASSlFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
Did you get any reply that you recall to that email?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall.
MR. SCHIFF: ·And is Sberbank one of the largest Russian banks?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. But, as I mentioned, he didn't actually show up at all, so -MR.
SCHIFF: So you never met him during that trip.
MR. PAGE: No. No. And I don't think I ever have met him. No.
MR. SCHIFF: Were there other top officers of Sberbank present?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall.
172
I may have met some -- again, in investor relations, investor bank conferences,
there -- again, as you alluded to, they're one of the topfive companies in Russia. So I
probably met with some, you know, similar to Andrey Baranov, people who are investor
relations people or, you know, mid-management finance people at some point, but no --
MR. SCHIFF: And did you meet with anyone affiliated with VEB Bank?
MR. PAGE: No, not in -- not in the last couple years, to the best of my recollection.
Again, it's a big bank and there's a lot of people from VEB running around Moscow, but no
substantive, serious conversations.
And, again, now that I think about it, they may have been at some investor
conference at some point, but I just can't recall. Nothing substantive and nothing
material.
MR. SCHIFF: Arkadiy Dvorkovich, did you ever discuss any proposal in terms of
Russian funding for any jOint project with him?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. Again, there may have been something -- the
only time I had a, you know, brief, sort of, more-than-10-second conversation with him was
in December 2016, just talking in a New Economic School context. And there again, it was
more something that was a concept discussed jointly and -- but I wasn't -- you know.
UNCLASSIFIED
173
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Now, Dr. Page, you mentioned there were 10 people, and I think
they were 10 non-journalists, that you maintained communication with after the July trip, " ,
but you could only give us the name of, I think, one of them.
MR. PAGE: No,"I'm saying less than 10, give or take, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: Can you tell us who the other eight or nine or seven individuals
you've maintained contact with from that trip are?
MR. PAGE: Well, again, mostly the people that I've known. You're saying
Russian citizens or Russian people from Moscow?
MR. SCHIFF: The people that you met with while you were in Moscow.
MR. PAGE: Moscow, yeah. The main people are and a couple
of scholars from there. And --
MR. SCHIFF: And who are the couple scholars?
MR. PAGE: I mentioned Shlomo Weber. There was another person -- you know,
another person from New Economic School.
MR. SCHIFF: And who is that?
MR. PAGE: It was -- I can1t recall the gentleman's name .. He was an assistant.
Yeah, I don't recall.
MR. SCHIFF: And who introduced you to the assistant?
MR. PAGE: Well, I was -- I think what happened -- I don't recall specifics.
What happened is -- it's actually interesting. I went there, because I hadn't been
out to Skolkovo, which is sort of the Silicon Valley of Russia, this new complex where New
Economic School and a couple of other universities are. So I went out there one of the
days I was there. And there was actually a board meeting of the New Economic School
happening --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, that's a lot more information than need. I'm just
UNCLASSIFIED
174
UNCLASSIFIED
interested in who you stayed in touch with since your trip to Moscow. I just want their
names at this point.
So, apart from the two you've mentioned, who else did you stay in communication
with that you met with while you were in Moscow?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall anyone I stayed in touch with.
MJt SCHIFF: And are these a part of the emails that you still have possession of
that you have not provided the committee?
MR. PAGE: I'm not sure what I -- I can look that up. I don't have any recollection.
Again, alii know is I haven't done anything substantive with these people. But I don't -MR.
ROONEY: Reclaiming my time. We'll take a break for votes. Thanks.
MR. PAGE: Okay.
[Recess.]
UNCLASSIFIED
175
UNCLASSIFIED
[4:00 p.m.]
MR. CONAWAY: [Presiding.] Back on the record.
In the remaining time I have, Dr. Page, is there anything else you would like to get
into the record that you may not have gotten in in your opening statement?
MR. PAGE: Let me -- IIII just finish up on one of the points I was saying about my
old boss, Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan.
You know, at the end of the Cold War, he had some very different perspectives as
to -- based on his analyses of whatls actually going on in Russia and Moscow. And I think
there was sort of this groupthink in the Intelligence Community that really constrained
things significantly. And I think some of the misunderstandings that came up last year, I
think, toa large extent, was a repeat of these same phenomena, right?
And so I think the more -- you know, again, itls a fairly broad scope of this
investigation. I think the more we kind of look, you know, including within that, actually,
as the oversight committee for the IC, the more that those elements might be looked at.
And I think, you know, what I went through, again, with the dossier is pretty
incredible. Sd I think the more an assessment on the Russia front and how some of these
misunderstandings came about can really make a big difference.
And welve seen a lot of -- you know, some of the subsequent intelligence mistakes,'
whether it was misinterpretation of what was happening in Iraq with WMD, et cetera, I
think there is a big overlap here.
And I think some of the things live been through, particularly given on the public
side, where this is mostly about information war -- and I think therels information-war
elements on our side, as well, in terms of things that were -- if you look at U.S. propaganda
networks, -the propaganda which was, put out there from -- if you look at all the broadcasts
of RT and Sputnik, the things that were -- the accuracy of what was put out by Radio Free
UNCLASSIFIED
176
UNCLASSIFIED
Europe about myself, based on the dossier, before the election, the level of accuracy and
the overall impact, the accuracy was much lower than RT and Sputnik, number one, and
the impact, given this Russia story about myself -- there may be other things going on.
can't speak to that. I was a junior guy, and so 11m just speaking to my own personal
experience. All I know is the dossier came after me first. There's a lot of people in
that that were discussed on March 20th. And, you know, of that long list of individuals, .
which were fully disclosed with the 35 pages to the public on January 10th, they only come
after one person, right?
So I think -- and I think as -- I hope the main takeaway of this meeting is an
understanding of -- it's inconceivable, I mean, I can't think of anything welve talked about
where there should be any shadow of a doubt regarding my -- "innocence" is just -- I mean,
it's not strong enough of a word. This whole story, speaking from my own personal
perspective, is so off the wall that it's incredible.
And I hope that the ability to seriously analyze what happens in Russia in terms of
having a deeper understanding within the Intelligence Community -- again, because it's the
foundation of what the initial focus was, you know, through the first 50-years-plus of the
organization.
So I think, hopefully -- and I would be happy to, you know, talk more about those
things as opposed to my business partners or, you know, individuals who I was loosely
affiliated with. My hope, after everything live been through and the domestic terrorist
threats live faced, even based on some of the false allegations in this committee which
came out on March 20th, I hope as a silver lining there might be some positive lessons
learned, if you will, as to how better to understand Russia, et cetera.
So that's -- I want to help in any way I can, but I think helping on a more strategic
level would make this all worthwhile.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: All right. Anything else before I yield back? Did you finish
your opening statement?
177
MR. PAGE: Well, I'll just kind of finish on that long -- on that side as well. I mean,
you know, there's been a lot of other disasters in the Intelligence Community. Again, we
talked about Middle East, but also Asia, Africa, Latin America with the Cuban Missile Crisis,
and beyond throughout its history, tne history of the Ie. And, you know, the
embarrassments related to the dodgy dossier and the problems that this helped create for
our great country here at home carried extraordinary damage for average citizens like
myself, including human rights violations, domestic terrorist threats; as I mentioned, and,
really, efforts to undercut our democracy based on those falsehoods that were put out
there. So I'd look forward to helping with that as time goes on.
And, you know, as I had discussed with Robby Mook -- I went to a continuing legal
education meeting with him a couple of months ago, and we were talking about lessons
learned from the hack, the DNC and Podesta hack. And I asked him afterwards, well,
that's -- you know, the Podesta emails and the DNC emails, they were all proved to be true.
Whatwould be your key lessons learned in terms of -- or what would be your
recommendations if, similarly, information is disclosed about yourself and your
organization but it turns out to be all false? You know, essentially referring to the dodgy
dossier with the allegations against me.
An"d he made a really interesting point, which really illustrated a lot of things. He
explained how, well, if you're under attack, you know, if your organization is having issues
related to a hack, one of the best things you can do is distract attention. Come up with a
new story line and put out some sometimes false information to really change the overall
story. And he alluded to the election this year in France and how France used the exact
same technique.
UNCLASSIFIED
178
UNCLASSIFIED
And, to me, sort of, the honesty, the fact that he's, I mean, essentially admitting to
what happened -- and it's been subsequently proven, with these recent disclosures in The
Washington Post, et cetera, with the law firm explaining that they were behind the dodgy
dossier.
So there's a great piece to that. And I think, you know, if, jointly, similar to the
way your committee has done great in working together, I think if we can build upon some
of these lessons learned and really look at ways this can become a positive for our country,
I think -- if we, going back to the very core of the organization, U.S. Intelligence
Community, if there's an improvement in terms of analysis preventing what happened to
me from ever happening agai"n, I think there is a big silver lining.
And similar to the end of the Cold War, for the lawyers that are still in the room,
there is a -- I went to an international law conference in New York, and they talked about
two major turning points in international law. First was at the end of the Cold War, and
the other -- or, actually, previously, was 1942, where there was a new ability to bring
people together and improve international law.
And the common denominator between early '90s and the, sort of, end of World
War II is there was positive relations between Russia and the United States. And, you
know, if there's any incriminating element of what started all this with me, it's that
somewhat rare position which I think the person I was supporting similarly supported in
the past.
So'l hope we can move to a better case in that case and improve law, both
internationally and here domestically.
MR. CONAWAY: All right. Thank you.
Without objection, the chair and ranking member will be permitted to question the
witness for an additional 30 minutes each and mayvield time to other members at their
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
discretion.
And, with that, I recognize Mr. Schiff.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
179
Dr. Page, my colleague Mr. Swalwell asked you about your travel last year. Did
you also go to Brussels after your Russia trip?
MR. PAGE: I did.
MR. SCHIFF: And how long were you in Brussels?
MR. PAGE: Very short. It was the -- well, it's the holiday at the end -- Labor Day
weekend in late August. Labor Day, is that in late August? I always get Labor Day and
Memorial Day confused. But Labor Day. And I went for essentially a long weekend,
maybe 4 nights or something.
MR. SCHIFF: Around Labor Day?
MR. PAGE: In the end of the summer, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you also go there as a stop after your Russia trip in July?
MR. PAGE: No, I flew -- it was this -- because there -- I tried to -- I told you I had
the two separate conferences I went -- or, first, I gave the speech in Moscow,
commencement speech, and then the following week it was in Cambridge. I tried to fly
directly from Moscow to Cambridge the second week -- or to Heathrow Airport in London.
Unfortunately, because they were two separate tickets and two separate universities, they
both sent me back and forth through JFK Airport in New York. So I just flew directly back.
MR. SCHIFF: Just referring to an email from July 7th, 2016, Bates stamped
you wrote an email to Walid Phares, J.D. Gordon, and Tera Dahl: "FYI, I'll
land LHR" -- assuming that's Heathrow -- "this Sunday" --
MR. PAGE: Yep.
MR. SCHIFF: "-- and I'll be in the U.K. until Wednesday night, July 10 through 13.
UNCLASSIFIED
180
UNCLASSIFIED
Short Eurostar ride to Brussels."
So· did you go to Brussels?
MR. PAGE: No. So there was a -- somewhere in this email chain -~ is this the first
Walid -- no.
What happened is there was some question about -- oh, sorry, Brussels. 11m
confusing Brussels and Budapest. Itls been a long day. No, they're referring to
European Parliament. And I think I may have misunderstood, that therels this thing going
on with the European Parliament, and I just offered -- you know, it sounded like an
interesting event, and lid be happy to go there, I think is what I was referring to.
Let me actually read the email. I vaguely recall this email. Let me just give it a
quick read.
Yeah, I was just offering to go. They never -- and I may have misinterpreted where
there was something European Parliament, which I assumed was in Brussels, but it may
have actually been in Washington, actually.
MR. SCHIFF: So you did not travel to Brussels in July?
MR. PAGE: I havenlt been to Brussels in at least 5 years. I may have done a
transit 5 years ago, but --
MR. SCHIFF: And when you offered that you would be happy to reroute if you
guys need a helping hand, what were you referring to?
MR. PAGE: Well, they just said therels some event going on, and 11m happy to sit
in on it. It sounded interesting, European Parliament.
MR. SCHIFF: "They" meaning Phares and Gordon, or Dahl? Whols--
MR. PAGE: Yeah. Yeah. Again, my passion is international relations, and it
sounded like quite an interesting event,so -- again, I was in the --
MR. SCHIFF: So, Dr. Page, when you were referring to Brussels earlier, you meant
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
to refer to Budapest?
MR. PAGE: 11m sorry. Yeah, that was--
MR. SCHIFF: And when were you in Budapest?
MR. PAGE: End of the summer.
MR. SCHIFF: End of last summer?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And roughly when was that?
MR. PAGE: Sort of, the last weekend in the summer. Again, it was a
long weekend.
MR. SCHIFF: What month are we talking about?
MR. PAGE: August.
MR. SCHIFF: So in late August you were in Budapest.
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And where were you in Budapest?
MR. PAGE: I stayed at just an apartment hotel there.
MR. SCHIFF: And do you remember the name of it?
MR. PAGE: I canlt recall, no.
MR. SCHIFF: And what was the purpose of your travel to Budapest?
181
MR. PAGE: It was a long weekend, and I was one of the -- one of the people I met
was the Hungarian Ambassador. So I happened to meet her in Cleveland. She was one
of the dozens of ambassadors that was there. So I made that trip.
MR. SCHIFF: So you met the Hungarian Ambassador at the Republican
Convention.
MR. PAGE: Uh-huh.
MR. SCHIFF: Is that right?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And you stayed in -- is it a man or woman, the Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: Itls a woman.
MR. SCHIFF: And you stayed in touch with her after the convention?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
182
MR. SCHIFF: And was the purpose of your trip to Budapest in the late summer to
visit with the Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: It was -- live actually been working on a renewable energy project.
Or itls one of the projects welve been looking at. And so therels an energy
entrepreneur -- therels geothermal springs and developments going on in Hungary, and
theive been pitching that for quite some time to me. And so, when she mentioned she
might be there that time and, you know, ied be interesting to -- just offered to meet up
and maybe meet with a few people, I figured that might be a good opportunity to do
something which I had been hoping to do for some time.
·MR. SCHIFF: So this conversation you had with the Hungarian Ambassador at the
Republican Convention, you discussed a potential energy-related project with her?
MR. PAGE: I canlt remember if I -- we were talking more just foreign policy things.
MR. SCHIFF: But it must have been specific enough for you to make a trip out
there to visit with her, right?
MR. PAGE: Nothing too specific. Again, similar to what I was referring to in the
Brussels --
MR. SCHIFF: Did you make other plans to conduct any other business in Budapest
or just whatever business you had with the Ambassador?
MR. PAGE: The geothermal project I mentioned. I had a long meeting related to
that.
UNCLASSIFIED
183 .
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And the geothermal meeting, was that set up prior to your travel?
MR. PAGE: I can't remember exactly the sequencing, but it was somewhere
around the same time.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, Mr. Page, what I'm trying to understand here is: You plan a
. trip to Budapest after meeting with the Hungarian Ambassador, but you can't recall any
specifics about what you discussed or why you'd be traveling there to meet with her?
MR. PAGE: Oh, I didn't say that. I said--
. MR. SCHIFF: And you don't know whether the geothermal project was something
you had even discussed with anyone in advance of your trip?
MR. PAGE: No. I'm saying, again, we had a good conversation in Cleveland, and
there was -- you know, she offered to set up a few meetings there, and so I had some
discussions with them as well.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, okay. That's somewhat different. What meetings did she
offer to set up for you in Budapest?
MR. PAGE: A few representatives from the Hungarian Government.
MR. SCHIFF: And what representatives from the Hungarian Government?
MR. PAGE: I don't have the list in front of me. I can't recall specifically.
MR. SCHIFF: And what was their portfolio?
MR. PAGE: Different -- different things. Again, all foreign policy -- or mostly
foreign-policy-related.
MR. SCHIFF: Well, that's extraordinarily vague, Dr. Page.
MR. PAGE: Yeah. Yeah. Because I just can't recall.
MR. SCHIFF: You don't remember the names of anyone you went to meet with or
what their positions were in the Hungarian Government?
MR. PAGE: Not right now, I can't recall, but --
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And you went -- was this the only destination on your trip?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. It was just back and forth.
184
MR. SCHIFF: So you went all the way to Budapest, but you can't remember who
you met with there or specifically what you -MR.
PAGE: I don't want to--
MR. SCHIFF: -- hoped to accomplish?
MR. PAGE: There are -- again, it was general interest, and live also always had an
interest in these potential projects in Hungary. So it seemed like a -- again, it's a long
weekend, and there was -- it's a possibility to -- you decide what you want to do in any
labor Day weekend. To me, that's the best opportunity of what to do.
So there was a good chance to -- again, similar to what live explained. I have an
interest in foreign policy, and I have an interest in energy markets, right? So this is a good
opportunity to -- particularly given the fact that, within the past 30 days, all of my
opportunities frqm a Russia context have started to have this major dark cloud, which only
got darker and darker, right? So, having had a long-term interest in terms of Eastern
Europe and possible energy investments and projects there -- and, again --
MR. SCHIFF: And--
MR. PAGE: -- this person had been pitching this idea to me for several years, and
it just came up as a possibility to do both. And, again, it was a long weekend. 11m
just -- had a chance to consider these --
MR. SCHIFF: And what is the Ambassador's name?
MR. PAGE: Reka -- I can't recall her last -- the spelling of her last name, but I can
add that to the -- I believe she's still there. She hasn't been here that long.
MR. SCHIFF: And you communicated with her in email after meeting with her at
the convention?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And you have those emails?
MR. PAGE: I might. 11m not sure.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you destroyed or deleted any of your emails?
MR. PAGE: Not inten- -- no. No. I have -- on ~y computer, I have emails.
185
But -- therels a 1-gigabyte memory maximum on my server, but my computer, sort of,
keeps collecting. Itls getting pretty heavy, so 11m looking forward to this process being
over.
MR. SCHIFF: But you havenlt deleted any of your emails from your time on the
campaign.
MR. PAGE:
MR. SCHIFF:
MR. PAGE:
server itself.
Not from my computer, no.
Well, have you deleted them from the cloud or anywhere else?
Well, again, I have a 1-gigabyte maximum on the -- in terms of the
MR. SCHIFF: I understand that, Dr. Page, but my question is, have you deleted any
of your emails from either last year or this year?
MR. PAGE: I still have it on my computer.
MR. SCHIFF: So the answer is no?
MR. PAGE: I believe so, yes. I believe I have not -- I have everything that is still
on my computer.
MR. SCHIFF: And what was the nature of the project that you discussed while you
were in Budapest?
MR. PAGE: Itls a geothermal project. There were a couple of different -- I can
provide that information. I donlt -- itls been -- again, the detailed specifics of that are a
distant memory given everything that live been subjected to over the last --
UNCLASSIFIED
186
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Well, can you remember anything about what you learned on your
trip to Budapest?
MR. PAGE: In terms of the geothermal?
MR. SCHIFF: Well, that was ostensibly the purpose of your trip, right?
MR. PAGE: Well, that was part of it, and also to meet with some of the people
from the Hungarian Government, so --
MR. SCHIFF: All right. let's focus, then, on the Hungarian Government. Do you
remember either the names or positions of any of the Hungarian Government people that
you met with?
MR. PAGE: Again, similarly, it's -- the names are somewhat long and complicated,
and it's been over a year since I had --
MR. SCHIFF: So is the answer no?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall right now, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you retain their cards?
MR. PAGE: I retained -- I have electronic records, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And what did you discuss with the Hungarian Government officials
while you were there?
MR. PAGE: General perspectives on Europe and international relations and
foreign policy.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you discuss U.S.-Russia relations with the Hungarian
Government?
MR. PAGE: I think in general. That was not the focus of our discussions. But I
think in general they are -- we may see a little bit more eye-to-eye on that, in terms of
being less aggressive, if you will, in terms of starting new confrontations with --
MR. SCHIFF: Well, the Hungarian Government has a very pro-Russian President
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
and policy, does it not?
MR. PAGE: Pro-Russia is -- everything is relative. I mean, relative to other
countries in Europe, I think that would be a fair characterization.
187
MR. SCHIFF: And did you discuss with the Hungarian Government representatives
your views on whether the sanctions on Russia should be lifted?
MR. PAGE: Not that I recall. And if I did, it may have come up in passing again.
MR. SCHIFF: So another passing reference·to the sanctions.
MR. PAGE: At the most, yeah. Because it's not really relevant, right? I mean,
Hungary is not going to be --
MR. SCHIFF: Well, it depends what kind of transactions you're talking about.
MR. PAGE: Well, the transactions were totally separate, right? There's -- I
happened to be meeting with someone who I had been in touch with for some time, but -MR.
SCHIFF: But you're saying that in a meeting with Hungary, during a time in
which you are a foreign policy adviser of the campaign --
MR. PAGE: Again, not much of a foreign policy -- given this point, right?
Because, again, a month earlier --
MR. SCHIFF: Well, at the time--
MR. PAGE: -- a month earlier is when -MR.
SCHIFF: Dr. Page --
MR. PAGE: No, I'm answering your question.
MR. SCHIFF: Go ahead.
MR. PAGE: A month earlier is when I started getting these false calls. And my
ability to assist or help out with the campaign as an informal, unpaid volunteer was
already -- my position was already rapidly, you know, declining. So I wasn't -- not really
offering anything, right? Again, so it was more general --
UNCLASSIFIED
188
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Well, at the time you met the Hungarian Ambassador at the
Republican Convention, did you convey to her that you were a foreign policy adviser for the
campaign?
MR. PAGE: She knew I was a volunteer, yeah, so -- but nothing major.
MR. SCHIFF: She knew you were a volunteer? . You know, people who knock on
doors are volunteers.
MR. PAGE: No, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Did she know you were a foreign policy adviser?
MR. PAGE: She knew that, yes. Well, that's the reason I was at that symposium.
MR. SCHIFF: Right. And that's also part of the reason she invited you to
Hungary, no?
MR. PAGE: I think it was -- she never asked for anything, you know. And she
mentioned --
MR. SCHIFF: That's not my question, Dr. Page.
MR. PAGE: I mentioned Madeleine Albright in one of the those emails you just
referenced. You know --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, that's not my question. She invited you to Hungary-MR.
PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: -- because you were a foreign policy adviser to the campaign. Isn't
that correct?
MR. PAGE: I don't think that was -- she knows a lot of people, and, similarly, in
foreign policy circles, there are a lot of individuals who are interested and, sort of, part of
the foreign policy community of a country.
So I don't think -- she never asked, you know, asked me for anything --
MR. SCHIFF: 11m not asking if she asked you for anything, but I am asking you
UNCLASSIFIED
189
UNCLASSIFIED
whether the fact that you were a foreign policy adviser to the campaign played a role in
why she invited you to Hungary. That would stand to reason, would it not?
MR. PAGE: She may -- it may have factored in a little bit. But I wouldn't -- I
wouldn't discount or rule out that this meeting would have happened anyway, which
is -- you know, again, because going back throughout the years, whether it's in China,
whether it's in South Africa, Ukraine, even, you know, in Brussels -- you know, I had been to
Brussels in the past -- there are contacts you make. And, again, it was --
MR. SCHIFF: But this contact you made at the Republican Convention at a time
wheny'ou were a foreign policy adviser to the campaign, correct? .
MR. PAGE: Uh-huh. Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Okay.
There's nothing more you can recall about the nature of your meetings with the
Hungarian Government officials, Dr. Page?
MR. PAGE: General discussions about their development--
MR. SCHIFF: And did you convey in those general discussions your desire for a
stronger U.S.-Russia relationship?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall anything. And that -MR.
SCHIFF: And did you --
MR. PAGE: -- certainly was not the focus. That was certainly not the focus of any
meeting, orthe substance of my -- again, it was more general Eastern Europe. You know,
they're the Visegrad countries, right? That's the center of that region.
MR. SCHIFF: Were there any other Trump campaign personnel in Budapest at the
time you were there?
MR. PAGE: Not that I'm aware of.
MR. SCHIFF: Did any of the government officials that you met with make
UNCLASSIFIED
190
UNCLASSIFIED
reference to any other Trump campaign personnel?
MR. PAGE: I -- again, I mentioned the Ambassador. She may have mentioned
that she knew somebody, but I can't recall anything.
MR. SCHIFF: Who did the Russian -- I'm sorry, Russian Ambassador or Hungary?
MR. PAGE: Sorry, sorry. I'm -- you got me thinking. Sorry, the Hungarian
Ambassador.
MR. SCHIFF: So the Hungarian Ambassador may have mentioned to you in
Budapest knowing someone else from the Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: I mentioned that she knows everyone. She mentioned spending
time with Madeleine Albright.
MR. SCHIFF: But I'm not asking about Madeleine Albright. I--
MR. PAGE: Well, just in that context. She was going down a long list of names,
and someone's from the Trump campaign, their name may have come up. And, again,
there were other people who -- she's in the foreign policy circles in Washington.
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: So, actually, no, you reminded me, you reminded me. Now it came
back to me. Joe Schmitz, who was also, you know, one of the members of our
committee, he -MR.
SCHIFF: So the only--
MR. PAGE: That's the only--
MR. SCHIFF: -- the only Trump campaign person that she mentioned to you that
. she knew during your discussions in Budapest was Joe Schmitz
MR. PAGE: To the best of my rec,ollection, yes.
MR. SCHIFF,: Did she ever say Joe Schmitz had visited her in Ukraine?
UNCLASSIFIED
191
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: In Ukraine?
MR. SCHIFF: I'm sorry. In Hungary?
MR. PAGE: No. No, I don't think so. She might have, but I don't think so .
. MR. SCHIFF: Did either the Hungarian Ambassador or any of the other Hungarian
Government officials you met indicate to you that anyone else from the Trump campaign
had been in Budapest that year?
MR. PAGE: No. To the best of my recollection, no. Again, it's similar to
her -- as I think about this more and as you ask me more questions, I remembered her
mentioning Joe Schmitz She may have
mentioned someone else passing through, but nothing that comes to mind.
MR. SCHIFF: And did Michael Cohen's name ever come up?
MR. PAGE: I don't think so.
MR. SCHIFF: You don't think so or it didn't?
MR. PAGE: I don't -- I probably hear thousands -- I've heard thousands of names
between now and then.
MR. SCHIFF: I'm sure you have, but not thousands of lawyers for the President.
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. Yeah, not that I can recall. And certainly
nothing along the lines of these crazy allegations from the same person that disrupted my
life, no, in terms of the dodgy dossier. None of those allegations. Nothing along those
lines for sure.
MR. SCHIFF: And while you were in Budapest, did you meet with any Russian
natives or representatives of the Russian Government?
MR. PAGE: Not that I can recall. There may -- again, similar to -- we went to
a -- you know, there was a hotel, and we had a coffee at a hotel, and there were a few
people passing through. There may have been one Russian person passing through there.
UNCLASSIFIED
192
UNCLASSIFIED
But I have no recollection because it was totally immaterial and nothing serious was
discussed~ So -- but I vaguely recall that, you know, there may have been someone that
we, you know --
MR. SCHIFF: That you may have met a Russiannational at one of the functions?
MR. PAGE: They may -- you know, just in passing at a --
MR. SCHIFF: Well, Dr. Page, you have a lot of conversations in passing.
MR. PAGE: Well, and that's why I'm careful. When I say something, unlike John
Podesta, who on "Meet the Press" just says definitively to Chuck Todd --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, we're not talking about John Podesta.
MR. PAGE: No, but he's very -- that I met with Divyekin, the head of Russian
intelligence, said to Chuck Todd on "Meet the Press." When I say something, I want to be
entirely sure. So I just add that caveat.
Again, nothing serious was discussed, but I meet a lot of people, so I can't
definitively say that there was -- that I never said hello to anyone. You know, I seem to
vaguely recall briefly saying hello to someone in that context at a cafe.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And who, if anyone, did you stay in touch with that you had met
while in Budapest after your trip?
193
MR. PAGE: I believe it was just Reka, and there was one other person who was
also a foreign policy person who I stayed in touch with. I cannot remember his name.
could let you know that.
MR. SCHIFF: Who was that?
MR. PAGE: I don't recall his name.
MR. SCHIFF: And what do they do?
MR. PAGE: They are a foreign policy person related to -- in the government.
can't remember their exact title. And, again, he is more -- similar to what I am explaining
on the -- in terms of my contacts and the people I interact with in the U.K., in Canada, in
China --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, 11m not asking about China and Canada.
MR. PAGE: It is scholars. He is a scholar and an expert in foreign policy.
MR. SCHIFF: Is he a scholar, or does he work for the Hungarian Government?
MR. PAGE: He was working for the Hungarian Government.
MR. SCHIFF: And you don't know what his portfolio is?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall.
MR. SCHIFF: Do you know whether he was with the Hungarian intelligence?
MR. PAGE: Look, similar to that phrase, and I think someone said it in your
committee, one of the meetings, people don't wear badges. Right? Everyone
has -- similar to me spending the day with you gentlemen and -- ladies and gentlemen -- is
you have contacts, right? As far as I know, he is not.
MR. SCHIFF: I am asking you about a Hungarian Government official with which
UNCLASSIFIED
194
UNCLASSIFIED
you stayed in touch after you left the country, and you can't tell us his name. You can't
tell us what government agency he might have been with. You can't tell us in particular
what you discussed. You can't tell us much of anything.
MR. PAGE: Because my life has been completely changed in the last 15 months,
and it is a distant memory of a world I used to live in before the death threats and all the
crazy attacks and the dozens of media requests I get a day asking questions of similar to
what we discussed a couple of hours ago, about whether or not I ever met Papadopoulos,
right? When you are getting -- when I have gotten a hundred Papadopoulos questions
over the last 48 hours, it's hard to remember who I met 15 months ago, frankly.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, let me turn your attention back to the Republican
. Convention. Did you participate in any discussions with other people from the campaign
about the Republican Party platform?
MR. PAGE: No. I actually -- there has been so many false allegations about this.
MR. SCHIFF: You said no.
MR. PAGE: Okay.
MR. SCHIFF: And I assume that's an accurate answer, right?
MR. PAGE: Yes. Again, I may have been on email chains. I received an email
from J.D. I can't remember the exact timing. But he alluded to some change in the
Republican Party platform. But again, that was the week before. It's a
2-week -- everyone thinks of the RNC as 1 week. The week before is when they do all the
platform changes, right?
MR. SCHIFF: So you received an email from J.D. Gordon at some point?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection vaguely.
MR. SCHIFF: During or after the convention?
MR. PAGE: Well, it must have been before because -- I believe it was before.
UNCLASSIFIED
195
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: . Was it before or after the debate over the Ukraine amendment?
MR. PAGE: To the best of my recollection -- I mean, he alluded to some discussion
about that. I can't remember what the outcome of -- was on that. Bud I had no input
whatsoever to that topic of conversation.
MR. SCHIFF: And did you provide your own opinion, either before, during, or after
about how the issue was resolved?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. I can't recall. In general, if I had to guess, my position
would be I am interested in peace, right? And I think arming more people --
MR. SCHIFF: Now, Dr. Page, I am not asking about your policy view. I am asking
you --
MR. PAGE: I might have expressed words to that effect, where I am hoping, you
know -- to me, if you ask my personal opinion --
MR. SCHIFF: I am not. I am asking you what you have communicated to other
Trump campaign people.
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. If you are asking me now, and probably what I would
have said then and what I would say any time in my life is sometimes the more people you
arm and the more --
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page, I am not asking you your policy views. I am interested in
what you have communicated during the campaign, during the convention.
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. I can't recall.
MR. SCHIFF: Let me draw your attention to . That is a July 14,
2016, email to J.D. Gordon, Joseph Schmitz, Bert Mizusawa, Chuck Kubic, Walid Phares, and
Tera Dahl, that says: "As for the Ukraine amendment, excellent work." Does this
refresh your recollection of --
MR. PAGE: Well, it's just expressing what I feel. Right? This is--
UNCLASSIFIED
196'
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Does it refresh your recollection at all about what other interactions
you may have had with the campaign about the amendment?
MR. PAGE: No. This is the only thing I -- is my only interaction that I vaguely
recall. And this expresses my personal opinion. And that's all that was. And all those
people who are on that list are individuals who had -- again, they are informal advisers,
members of a volunteer committee, and they are offering an opinion.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever communicate with Paul Manafort about the Ukraine
amendment?
MR. PAGE: Definitely not. The only email I sent to him was late -- I believe
later -- I forget the exact timing, but later in the summer when we got the call from The
New York Times. So --
MR. SCHIFF: And here these -- you can answer a quick yes or no. Did you ever
meet Peter Smith, a GOP operative?
MR. PAGE: That's a very common name, but I believe not. I have met a lot of
Smiths over the years.
MR. SCHIFF: Peter Smith claimed to have run an operation to find or authenticate
the missing Hillary Clinton emails. So you never came across Peter Smith. Did you have
any discussion about Peter Smith with anyone connected with the Trump campaign?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever discuss--
MR. PAGE: Onthose topics, I never had any discussions either, so -MR.
SCHIFF: Okay.
MR. PAGE: With anyone. So definitely not -- if that's what he's into, that's not
someone I am in that world. I am in the policy world, so --
MR. SCHIFF: And I think you said earlier you had no interactions with General
UNCLASSIFIED
197
UNCLASSIFIED
Flynn, correct?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: How about Roger Stone?
MR. PAGE: He was at a book signing for -- in May of 2016, and I went to a book
signing at the Republican Club on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. And so I said a very
brief hello to him then.
MR. SCHIFF: And that was your only interaction?
MR. PAGE: Yeah. .He asked me -- when I told him I was a volunteer for the
campaign, he says: Are you a neocon?
And I said: I am the furthest thing from a neocon you can imagine. And that
was -- he laughed and then walked on. That was the end of our discussions.
Prince?
MR. SCHIFF: And these are probably very quick answers. Any contact with Erik
MR. PAGE: No. I don't believe so.
MR. SCHIFF: Any contact with Michael Cohen?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Donald Trump Junior?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Eric Trump.
MR. PAGE: I -- when I sent in my letter of -- saying that I am taking a leave of
absence from the campaign, I sent an email to him and a bunch of other individuals. So
that was on -- late on Sunday night, after I had sent the letter to James Comey. I sent a
copy of that to them.
MR. SCHIFF: So you sent a letter to Eric Trump, but you have had no other
interaction with him apart from that?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: No. No.
MR. SCHIFF: And how about Ivanka Trump?
MR. PAGE: No.
198
'MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any discussion with anyone affiliated with the campaign
or the White House in preparation for your testimony today?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you had any interaction with Michael Caputo?
MR. PAGE: No. No.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you had any interaction with Steve Bannon?
MR. PAGE: We -- we had a brief conversation in January, and we shared some text
messages. That's about it.
MR. SCHIFF: January of this year?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: What was the nature of your text message exchange?
MR. PAGE: It was -- he heard that I was going to be on I believe it was an MSNBC
event. And he just said it's probably not a good idea. So-MR.
SCHIFF: And he heard this from whom?
MR. PAGE: I am not sure, but--
MR. SCHIFF: So he was telling you not to go on MSNBC?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And he texted this to you?
MR. PAGE: He called me. It was right when I was -- it was in mid-January, so -MR.
SCHIFF: And how did he have your number?
MR. PAGE: Well, I mean, I think there is the campaign had my number. He
probably got it from the campaign, if I had to guess. I don't know.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: And did Mr. Bannon tell you why he didn't want you to go on
MSNBC?
199
MR. PAGE: No. But it turns out, I mean, I saw eventually the same day and in
the same hour slot in the "Meet the Press" daily, it was Vice President Pence. And this is
kind of a week after the dodgy dossier was fully released. And so I can understand, you
know, given reality, why it might not be a good idea when he heard, probably from the
producer -- somehow the word got back via the producers that I would be on there, so --
MR. SCHIFF: I am not sure that I follow that, but in any event, apart from your
speculating about it,what did he communicate as to why he thought you should not go on
MSNBC?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall the specifics.
MR. SCHIFF: Did he tell you he thought it would be hurtful to the President?
MR. PAGE: Not specifically, although there was a -- I had received -- we had
some -- letter exchanges previously, kind of sharing -- between Jones Day and myself, just
saying -- I forget the exact terminology, but -- you know, the overall message was: Don't
give the wrong impression. Or my interpretation of the message wa's: Don't give the
wrong impression that you're part of the administration or the Trump campaign.
And my response to that was, of course, I'm not. The only reason I ever talked to
the,media is to try to clear up this massive mess which has been created about my name.
MR. SCHIFF: So you received, previous to your phone call from Mr. Bannon, you
had received correspondence from Jones Day?
MR. PAGE: Yes.
MR. SCHIFF: And the' correspondence indicated that you should not be ~- you
should not represent yourself as a representative of the campaign?
MR. PAGE: Correct. Which I was not doing. Yeah. And which --
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Jones Day was representing whom?
MR. PAGE: The campaign.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, this is January of this year, correct?
MR. PAGE: Pre-inauguration, yes.
MR. SCHIFF: Pre-inauguration. And did the letter indicate who they were
speaking on behalf of, apart from the campaign?
200
MR. PAGE: The campaign. It says, you know, Donald J. Trump for President,
whatever the full term is.
MR. SCHIFF: And how long before the call you got from Mr. Bannon had you
received the correspondence?
MR. PAGE: I can't recall the exact timing.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, you weren't going to go onto the MSNBC and say you were still
representing the campaign, were you?
MR. PAGE: No. No. But again, I am the biggest
embarrassment -- unfortunately, I am the biggest embarrassment surrounding the
campaign.
MR. SCHIFF: Dr. Page --
MR. PAGE: So that's my interpretation.
MR. SCHIFF: So, when Mr. Bannon called you to ask you not to go on, did he make
any reference to the correspondence from the campaign?
Dhabi.
MR. PAGE: I can't recall. Again, I had just gotten off a 14-hour flight from Abu
MR. SCHIFF: He just made it clear he didn't want you to do the interview?
MR. PAGE: That's alii recall, yeah.
MR. SCHIFF: And what did you tell him?
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: I told him: I won't do it. That's fine. No big deal.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any further--
201
MR. PAGE: I mean, to the best'of my recollection -- again, I may have used the
opportunity -- this is the first time I ever talked to him in my life. I may have brought up
the need to fix this disaster of a story that really was the biggest influence on the election,
this false. narrative which had been put out with the world premiere of the dodgy dossier.
Again, we learned more about it on January 10th, but I was the main person attacked.
And at some point, this really needs to be fixed. And that's what my main focus is
because --
MR. SCHIFF: But Dr. Page, he didn't want you talking. Isn't that right?
MR. PAGE: He didn't want -- he did~'t want me talking that day. That's alii can
say. In terms of that one time block when there is a --
MR. SCHIFF: Did you have any conversation or interqction with Kellyanne
Conway?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. SCHIFF: I think I asked you earlier about General Kellogg. Tera Dahl. How
about Bernadette Kilroy-Martin?
MR. PAGE: You referenced some email. Did I get an email from her? Oh, yeah,
Bernadette. I can't even remember the name until you told me -- you mentioned it to
me.
MR. SCHIFF: But apart from that one referenc.e, you don't recall any meetings or-MR.
PAGE: To be honest with you, I can't even remember who she is. This is not
clea r from the --
MR. SCHIFF: There are two generals, Keith Kellogg and Joseph Kellogg -- unless I
have it wrong. Which did you have interaction with?
UNCLASSIFIED
202
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. PAGE: Keith .
. MR. SCHIFF: Keith Kellogg. Did you have any interaction with Brad Parscale?
MR. PAGE: The name is vaguely familiar, but I don't believe so.
MR. SCHIFF: He was the head of the campaign's digital arm.
MR. PAGE: No, no. I had nothing do with any of that.
MR. SCHIFF: And I assume you had no interaction with anyone from Cambridge
Analytica?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Do you know Felix Sater?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you had any interaction with Oleg Deripaska or any of his
representatives?
MR. PAGE: No. It's a big conglomerate, and so I may have years ago met some
people. Again, I am being careful. But no direct interaction with him, no direct
interaction with anyone senior in his organization. But if I am not mistaken, that's one of
the biggest conglomerates in Russia, right? So it's like not quite a General Electric, but it's
in that order of magnitude. So I would never say that I haven't met anyone from General
Electric, but no material discussions and never did anything with any of them.
MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Dr. Page, I am going to go through a list of names quickly.
You probably have had no contact with most of these people. So,if we can go through
them without any additional commentary, that would be great.
MR. PAGE: But just with the caveat that if I -- to the best of my recollection.
MR. CONAWAY: I call to the gentleman's attention that they have called votes.
Do you think we can land this plane before we have to go vote?
MR. SCHIFF: I am going to do my very best.
UNCLASSIFIED
203
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. CONAWAY: Okay. Notice he is 10 minutes past, and reset the 3D-minute
clock .
. MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I may have asked you -- well, I asked you about the bank, but Sergei Gorkov? Any
interaction with him?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: When I ask you about any interaction, I mean conversations,
emails --
MR. PAGE: Gorkov is Vnesheconom, I believe, right?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: Yeah, no.
MR. SCHIFF: So, with respect to all these questions I am asking -- when I say "any
interaction," I mean in writing or in person.
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Same question about Dmitry Peskov.
MR. PAGE: Is Peskbv the public relations?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: I went into an RT interview. I said -- I nodded at him as he was
walking into another RT interview. I had no direct interaction with him.
MR. SCHIFF: And that was when? During the July Moscow trip?
MR. PAGE: December. December Moscow trip.
MR. SCHIFF: December trip. Sergey Ivanov.
MR. PAGE: He used to be a senior official, I believe?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: There was somebody at a Council on Foreign Relations I had asked a
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
question with 5, 6 years ago, but no relationship beyond that.
MR. SCHIFF: Sergey Lavrov.
MR. PAGE: No, never.
MR. SCHIFF: Mikhail Fridman.
204
MR. PAGE: I believe he was at the -- when, in 2008, the then -- Dmitry Medvedev
spoke at the Council on Foreign Relations here in Washington. I said hello to him briefly.
MR. SCHIFF: Peter Aven.
MR. PAGE: Peter Aven. I believe they were standing next to each other because
they are Alfa partners. But that was, again, 9 years ago, a hello.
MR. SCHIFF: And I already asked you about the Agalarovs. Rob Goldstone?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Victor Vekselberg?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Konstantin Kilimnik?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Nikolai Patrushev?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Dmitry Rogozin?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Evgeny Prigozhin?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: I already asked about Veselnitskaya and Akhmetshin and Ike
Kaveladze.. You said no to Ike Kaveladze, correct?
MR. PAGE: I can't even remember the name. Who is he again? I don't know
anyone by that name.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
. MR. SCHIFF: Okay. Yuriy Chaika?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Igor Diveykin?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. SCHIFF: leonard Blavatnik.
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF:. Konstantin Kosachev.
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Anyone from Rossotrudnichestvo?
MR. PAGE: Doesn't ring a bell.
205
MR. SCHIFF: That's the government agency under the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Victor Yanukovych?
MR. PAGE: The Ukrainian?
MR. SCHIFF: Yes.
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Have you had any communication with Guccifer 2?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Or DCleaks?
MR. PAGE: Never.
MR. SCHIFF: Wikileaks or Julian Assange?
MR. PAGE: No.
MR. SCHIFF: Did you ever raise any issues of future bilateral energy cooperation
with Mr. Baranov?
MR. PAGE: No. I may have expressed a general opinion in the 13 years I have
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
known him, but --
MR. SCHIFF: And what about during July?
MR. PAGE: I don't believe so, no.
206
MR. SCHIFF: Were you aware, prior to December of last year, of a potential sale of
a 19-percent interest in Rosneft?
MR. PAGE: It was in the news. I can't remember when exactly that came out,
but -- I knew about it from the news. Itls been in the market for quite some time, people
that follow the energy sector. But, again, given everything live been through, I can't recall
exactly when that started to be known. But it was definitely during the summer at some
point. What date exactly I can't recail.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, Dr. Page, do you have more than one passport?
MR. PAGE: I have my U.S. passport,and I have -So
I -- I have that, which I still maintain.
MR. SCHIFF: Do you use the residence permit to travel?
MR. PAGE: Well, it's expired, actually, but, you know,
I present both passports. So it remains active.
MR. SCHIFF: Now, when you travel you
mentioned, does that permit you to travel through the Schengen zone without using a U.S.
passport?
MR. PAGE: I never travel anywhere -- I have never in my life traveled anywhere
not using my U.S. passport. They are both U.S. passports.
And sinCe I haven't had a chance to update it in terms of
this residence permit, I just carry the two.
MR. SCHIFF: And I take it, Dr. Page, you have never used an alias?
MR. PAGE: Never.
UNCLASSIFIED
UNCLASSIFIED
MR. SCHIFF: Were you in Russia during the Miss Universe Pageant in 2013?
MR. PAGE: No. Although the aliases I do use now only relate to the death
threats I have gotten to try, to keep a low profile.
- MR. SCHIFF: But you have never traveled under an alias?
MR. PAGE: No, no, never.
207
MR. SCHIFF: The public reports of Felix Sater, Michael Cohen, and others, Andrey
Artemenkd proposing a Ukraine settlement, do you know anything about that?
MR. PAGE: I don't know anything about that?
MR. SCHIFF: Do you know Andrey Artemenko?
MR. PAGE: Doesn't ring a bell, no.
MR. SCHIFF: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I yield back.
MR. CONAWAY: All right. So, Dr. Page, we have discussed several docu.ments
today which you agreed to provide us, and we appreciate that. In addition to the specific
documents we have discussed, I want to remind you that you remain under obligation to
produce any documents in your possession responsive to the subpoena issued on
October 4', 2017. Now that you have confirmed that you do in fact have such documents,
you are directed to produce them no later than 2 weeks from today, November 16, 2017.
In producing documents, please be sure to comply with the instructions accompanying the
subpoena, including with respect to any privileges. If you do not comply, the committee
will consider that additional steps may be appropriate to enforce it.
I ask unanimous consent that committee staff be authorized to make any technical,
grammatical, and conforming changes, including redactions of personally identifiable
UNCLASSIFIED
208
UNCLASSIFIED
information, to the transcript before it is released.
With that, Dr. Page, I need to apologize to you. I was confronted on my way back
down here by a CNN reporter asking me to comment on Mr. Schiff's inartful
comment -- question about were there any reasons why you could not answer our
questions. I thought that was going to be out of the conversation, and apparently, it's
not. Itls already being asked by CNN about the question that I think my colleague, wished
he had phrased differently.
MR. PAGE: I haven't left the SCIF since this morning.
MR. CONAWAY: I know that. I am apologizing in advance.
MR. SCHIFF: Your apology should come to me. I am not sure what you are
, referring to.
MR. CONAWAY: In a second.
Without objection, so ordered.
I also ask unanimous consent for the committee's security director to review the
transcript of today's hearing to ensure appropriate classification and to make any
n'ecessary redactions of classified information from the open session before the transcript
is released.
Without objection, so ordered.
And this interview is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:58 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
UNCLASSIFIED