http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:1405981

Table of contents:
//1// Temperantia + comparable summons
//2// Gracious & Glorious
//3// Other 5-B Arguments
//4// Bayonetta 2 Background Info
//5// Actual applicable Tier 5 feats
//6// Summary
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//1//

All quotes will come from the game lore.

Most 5-B scaling comes from Temperantia, from which 99% of the 5-Bs are comparable apparently. It should also be noted that Temperantia is a cardinal virtue, which is vastly superior to any regular angel, and it is also the strongest of the cardinal virtues.

Temperantia: "When the true power of the virtue of Temperance is laid upon our world, it is said to come as a tornado, capable of swallowing an entire country."

Calculated here (http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Unite_My_Rice/Quick_CAPE_Calc_for_Bayonetta) at consistently 6-C. Note that the game mentions what it's true power is.

Defeating Temperantia took Bayo beating it down to weaken it, and Hekatoncheir to finish it off/destroy it. In the second game, Balder summons Temperantia, and Bayo summons Madama Butterfly, and they stalemate each other.

Hekatoncheir: "A giant endowed with six fearsome arms capable of pulverizing mountains, those unfortunate enough to fall underfoot of the demon are subject to days-long violent earthquakes. Lacking knowledge, but brimming with brutality, it is said that even the most powerful of conjurers should take heed of the danger this beast presents."

Using Mount Fuji as a reasonably sized mountain, the result is also 6-C. A 6-C killing a weakened 6-C makes sense. Mountain busting is also listed as a reason for 5-B AP on the profile. Most of the listed justifications don't suit the tier, but that's beside the point.
(http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Mountain_and_Island_level_requirements#Mountain_level_Explosion:)

Urbane: "Urbane's power to reduce the triumphs of civilization to mere ashes with a single swing of his arm most likely reflects the subconscious fears man harbors toward both the natural world and their own society.""

Not only is civilization vague (It's meaning in latin means city/town/state, we also have this rated at city level, possibly country level), but given it's abilities as a fire-based angel, it's far more likely that a single swipe of it's arm produces a fire that rages through entire civilizations. After all, it's stated to reduce the triumphs of civilization to ash, which means it set things on fire. Simply reducing a great landmass to rubble isn't going to turn it into ash.

//2//

-Gracious and Glorious (Seraphim): "Supposedly gifted with incredible god-like powers there are no records of Gracious or Glorious appearing on the battlefield of evil; however, it is said this is because a mere taste of their power is enough to destroy the world, devastating all its path - both the record and the record-keeper."

Given the context of the lore, this is a High 6-A feat.

People are outright calling this 5-B. They're also saying it's 5-B because it used a portion of power, but I don't think there's enough evidence to make such an assumption.

-If it's destroyed the world at least once (implied by "there are no records of Gracious or Glorious appearing on the battlefield of evil; however, it is said this is because a mere taste of their power is enough to destroy the world, devastating all its path - both the record and the record-keeper"), then unless someone restores the Earth each time (of which there is no evidence), each "taste" of their power has left the Earth intact.

-Matthew argues:

"This is the Hierarchy of Laguna, something which is an absolutely correct source, not speculation like the Redgrave's notebook. It is a simple declaration of lore.

Every piece of the Hierarchy explains the capabilities and function of each angel correctely.

Who says it has to be Earth? Who says it is known to the people? Because it isn't. The Hierarchy of Laguna is common knowledge among the angels and sages, it concerns celestial knowledge and not a written doccument of someone on Earth."

-Who says it has to be Earth? Unless the context refers to the universe (which I don't think so), it's referring to Earth. Under the lore of many Angels of Paradiso, we see angels have tasks in specific areas. (http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Angels_of_Paradiso)

Some are stated to be in Paradiso, protecting Paradiso, in the Earth's oceans, etc.

-"Who says it is known to the people? Because it isn't. The Hierarchy of Laguna is common knowledge among the angels and sages, it concerns celestial knowledge and not a written doccument of someone on Earth."

Simple.
"there are no records of Gracious or Glorious appearing on the battlefield of evil; however, it is said this is because a mere taste of their power is enough to destroy the world, devastating all its path - both the record and the record-keeper"

The legends clearly illustrate that when Gracious and Glorious destroy the world, as such, it leaves no records or record keepers. Clearly, when it destroys the world, it also destroys the people making records and the records themselves.

He also states angels and sages (lumen sages) recorded all the info in the Hierarchy of Laguna.
-If the angels recorded this, it would explain how there are legends of how it erases all records if it destroys everything.

However if the sages recorded it as well, it would make no sense. Every sage but Balder was killed in the clan war against the Umbra Witches. This wouldn't hold true if every record and record keeper was destroyed.

That aside, it's just a lore statement, and I say this not to downplay, but to point out not only does Temperantia's lore say it can make country-wide storms, but we actually see it do so in the game as well.

//3//

1. Loki was able to open the hell gates with sheer force, as was Loptr.

This was a justification for 5-B, with no proof as to how such a feat was 5-B. Weekly stated they were the only ones capable of doing so, which implies the other "5-Bs" couldn't. Which makes this seem skeptical as a feat. Additionally, both Loki and Loptr are both one half of the same deity in the verse, so it's possible that has something to do with it instead. But this doesn't matter, because both Loki and Loptr are from Bayonetta 2, and only Bayonetta 1 has the 5-B keys. Bayonetta doesn't start at High 4-C until her base form in Bayonetta 2.

Loki opened the gates by hitting it with one of his magical cards, not with sheer force. We don't know how the ability works, but he can't even face fodder angels and demons, let alone Balder, Bayonetta, and Loptr. (https://youtu.be/rRKCWWNgYbg?t=1h33m58s)

Loki cutting adult Loptr is likely an outlier, considering he gets manhandled with one arm in his next scene: https://youtu.be/rRKCWWNgYbg?t=2h6m24s

However, Loptr states Loki has the sovereign powers- the powers to freely control the eyes of time. But Loki never truly realizes this ability. He is consistently unable to defeat weaker opponents and is unable to beat Balder or Bayonetta, meanwhile Loptr as a child could, with relative ease. With his cards however, Loki was able to erase the eyes of the world from existence, weakening Aesir, which led to his defeat. This seems to be a magical hax ability.

2. Madama Butterfly headbutting a meteor and fighting Temperantia.

Neither are 5-B.

3. Rodin saving the planet: This feat comes from the game description of Jeanne's weapon, Yagyu, which is the equivalent of Bayonetta's weapon, Takemikazuchi.

Yagyu: "True to its name, which means 'wild bull', this enormous hammer houses a charm by the raging bull god Gozu. Some time ago, Rodin used this hammer during a fight to save a certain planet in crisis. Despite Rodin's fine work, Bayonetta turned down the weapon, not finding the name to her liking. Rodin felt he had no choice but to join the battle himself and put on a personal display of its power. Rodin has since made it more powerful for Jeanne, traveling to Japan to find and affix a new charm."

Takemikazuchi: "A giant hammer forged from breaking down the thunder god Takemikazuchi's divine sword, the Futsuno-mitama.
Though harnessing adequate power as a sword, Rodin decided to rebulid it a as hammer to suit his personal tastes. One swing will cause the heavens to split and the earth to tremble."

Shaking the Earth and splitting the clouds is High 6-A. This is Rodin's feat without a doubt. And then you realize that these weapons were created in Bayonetta 2, so it doesn't matter (Bayonetta 1 has the 5-B keys).

//4//

A little background on Young Loptr (Bayo 2)

While Bayo was fighting Young Balder, Loki had an odd surge of power, which sent Bayonetta back in time to the period where her mother Rosa was alive, during the Clan Wars. It was here, that Bayonetta fought the Young Loptr of this time period (he even says "the other me (Loki) escaped to the future", referring to the Loki of that time), and he defeats her quite handily. He also killed Rosa with a card, similar to Loki's.

Stating because only two gods have been shown to be able to open the gates, that they're 5-B because they're the only ones that could, is illogical and not supported by any fact. A magical card of unknown properties being able to open a gate isn't justification of 5-B anything. (https://youtu.be/rRKCWWNgYbg?t=1h33m52s)

Loki in Bayonetta 2 also couldn't beat an Inspired or Harmony (normal angels) on his own, nor could he keep up with Balder or Bayonetta, and he ran away from a Gravitas whereas Bayonetta destroyed both Gravitas and Urbane. He did manage to defeat an Insidious, although after Bayonetta already beat it to death with the help of Madama Butterfly, who managed to rip one of it's eyes out. In fact, when we're first introduced to Loki, he's showing off by one-shotting third sphere angels with his cards, specifically the angels called "Acceptance" which are stated by game lore to be the weakest third sphere angel. http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Angels_of_Paradiso#Acceptance

Additionally on his profile, I think things are confused. Loptr in his translucent, man form is called Prophet: Prophet. In Bayonetta, the first title usually represents the rank, and the second the name. We see Young Loptr kill Rosa here: https://youtu.be/GSqOMDu7xno?t=5m44s

But he is also in his young form against base Bayonetta here, and he beats her: https://youtu.be/1T9UEfYr_CU?t=1m17s

Note, he is called Loptr there. This would mean he isn't 5-B, but is High 4-C like Bayonetta. I don't think Loki scales even though he's the other half of Loptr, because literally all of his feats contradict that belief.

//5//

The only feats/scaling in tier 5 for Bayonetta 1 is Balder (actual timeline aka Old Man Balder) busting the moon with the right eye of the world, Bayo having the other eye, Queen Sheba, Bayo fighting Jubileus while being powered only by Balder with the eye, and True Jeanne.

True power = full power, so my issue with that is if we accept High 6-A Glorious and Gracious and scale Temperantia above that, we're rewriting the fiction. Otherwise, the lore is either clearly wrong, or we have outliers. Temperantia has a 6-C feat and lore statement, and was killed by a demon who has a 6-C statement. Scaling them both above what we're told their power is just seems wrong.

//6//

Summary
-Rodin's feat is in Bayonetta 2, doesn't apply to Bayonetta 1 5-B revisions
-Kid Loptr killed Rosa and also beat Bayonetta in the second game, who is High 4-C
-Loptr and Loki opening the gates of hell is also in Bayonetta 2 and doesn't apply here, nor are they 5-B, nor is the feat 5-B
-Temperantia is calc'd at 6-C, stalemated by Madama Butterfly, killed by Bayonetta's 6-C summon after being weakened
-High 6-A Gracious and Glorious is an outlier if all normal angels are weaker than the cardinal virtues, and the strongest virtue is stated to be 6-C at true power
-Setting an entire civilization ablaze =/= destroying it in one shot
-The only tier 5 feats/scaling are from Jubileus, True Jeanne, Queen Sheba, and Bayo + Balder with each of the eyes of the world.