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Makaze

WolfOwl/Makaze PM

Makaze
Jan 10th, 2017
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  1. # Archive: Hello
  2. # Type: Conversation
  3.  
  4. ## Pages 1-4
  5.  
  6. ------------------------------------------------
  7.  
  8. #### Author: Makaze
  9. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 6:49 PM
  10.  
  11. Want to swap aliases/roles?
  12.  
  13. ------------------------------------------------
  14.  
  15. #### Author: WolfOwl
  16. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:11 PM
  17.  
  18. No. I'm not giving out information so easily. Also make sure to add Elieson to this conversation
  19.  
  20. ------------------------------------------------
  21.  
  22. #### Author: Makaze
  23. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:13 PM
  24.  
  25. Wow, that's more brusque than I expected.
  26.  
  27. Done.
  28.  
  29. Perhaps you prefer action exchange. Did you read my deal?
  30.  
  31. ------------------------------------------------
  32.  
  33. #### Author: WolfOwl
  34. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:19 PM
  35.  
  36. Was that the one about no killing?
  37.  
  38. Only four can win this game assuming one doesn't have a different wincon. I don't want to trust too easily.
  39.  
  40. ------------------------------------------------
  41.  
  42. #### Author: Makaze
  43. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:20 PM
  44.  
  45. I see.
  46.  
  47. Let me give some advice. Unless you already have other allies, you should make them sooner rather than later.
  48.  
  49. If you already have people you've promised your actions to, that's fine. Let me know and I'll be on my way.
  50.  
  51. ------------------------------------------------
  52.  
  53. #### Author: Makaze
  54. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:25 PM
  55.  
  56. And yes, it's the one about no killing. I keep my deals, even if it costs me the game.
  57.  
  58. ------------------------------------------------
  59.  
  60. #### Author: WolfOwl
  61. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:34 PM
  62.  
  63. I admire that kind of attitude. Honor is nice to see in mafia games. And yes I have been making allies I already know they're good to have.
  64.  
  65. ------------------------------------------------
  66.  
  67. #### Author: Makaze
  68. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:41 PM
  69.  
  70. Alright. One last thing then.
  71.  
  72. I am going to shoot among Blaze, Chuck D. and Joe. Any problems?
  73.  
  74. ------------------------------------------------
  75.  
  76. #### Author: WolfOwl
  77. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:44 PM
  78.  
  79. I don't know any of those so go ahead!
  80.  
  81. And in exchange I'm shooting between hajime kindaichi, pikochu, and oberon. Any issues?
  82.  
  83. ------------------------------------------------
  84.  
  85. #### Author: Makaze
  86. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:45 PM
  87.  
  88. Nope.
  89.  
  90. Thanks, that's all I needed. Let me know if you want my deal and are still alive!
  91.  
  92. ------------------------------------------------
  93.  
  94. #### Author: WolfOwl
  95. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 7:47 PM
  96.  
  97. We'll see. ![IMG](styles/default/xenforo/clear.png)
  98.  
  99. ------------------------------------------------
  100.  
  101. #### Author: Makaze
  102. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:06 PM
  103.  
  104. If I shoot Pikochu will you help me?
  105.  
  106. ------------------------------------------------
  107.  
  108. #### Author: WolfOwl
  109. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:07 PM
  110.  
  111. I actually decided on someone else. There are certain users I fear and I don't think Piko is one of them.
  112.  
  113. ------------------------------------------------
  114.  
  115. #### Author: Makaze
  116. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:08 PM
  117.  
  118. I see. Who then?
  119.  
  120. ------------------------------------------------
  121.  
  122. #### Author: WolfOwl
  123. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:09 PM
  124.  
  125. Who am I shooting or who do I worry about?
  126.  
  127. ------------------------------------------------
  128.  
  129. #### Author: Makaze
  130. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:10 PM
  131.  
  132. Who are you shooting.
  133.  
  134. I want to kill someone. Anyone, really. Need another shot to do it.
  135.  
  136. ------------------------------------------------
  137.  
  138. #### Author: WolfOwl
  139. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:15 PM
  140.  
  141. Oberon.
  142.  
  143. ------------------------------------------------
  144.  
  145. #### Author: Makaze
  146. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:16 PM
  147.  
  148. Okay. Any idea who it is?
  149.  
  150. ------------------------------------------------
  151.  
  152. #### Author: WolfOwl
  153. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:18 PM
  154.  
  155. Nope! But Oberon is the fairy ruler so it just seems fun to kill.
  156.  
  157. ------------------------------------------------
  158.  
  159. #### Author: Makaze
  160. #### Posted: Jan 4, 2017 at 9:19 PM
  161.  
  162. LMAO
  163.  
  164. I'll stick with Pikochu for now.
  165.  
  166. ------------------------------------------------
  167.  
  168. #### Author: WolfOwl
  169. #### Posted:
  170.  
  171. Ok....
  172.  
  173. ------------------------------------------------
  174.  
  175. #### Author: Makaze
  176. #### Posted:
  177.  
  178. Out of curiosity, are you an owl character too? If so, who? I liked those books but never finished them. I think.
  179.  
  180. ------------------------------------------------
  181.  
  182. #### Author: Makaze
  183. #### Posted:
  184.  
  185. The last thing I remember is Dire Wolves.
  186.  
  187. ------------------------------------------------
  188.  
  189. #### Author: WolfOwl
  190. #### Posted:
  191.  
  192. I technically haven't finished the series. I have some epilogue book to finish.
  193.  
  194. In this game I'm not. Though my username and idea for the theme does come from the books. You should finish them. They're short and good. Though time never is very constant in them.
  195.  
  196. ------------------------------------------------
  197.  
  198. #### Author: Makaze
  199. #### Posted:
  200.  
  201. I don't think I finished Warriors either. I should be ashamed.
  202.  
  203. What is it then? Unless you think it could reveal role stuff.
  204.  
  205. ------------------------------------------------
  206.  
  207. #### Author: WolfOwl
  208. #### Posted:
  209.  
  210. I never read warriors.
  211.  
  212. It could reveal role stuff.
  213.  
  214. ------------------------------------------------
  215.  
  216. #### Author: Makaze
  217. #### Posted:
  218.  
  219. Fair enough.
  220.  
  221. I'll see if I can get someone to shoot Oberon with you. Unless you don't need it (already dying) and my shot would be better spent elsewhere.
  222.  
  223. ------------------------------------------------
  224.  
  225. #### Author: WolfOwl
  226. #### Posted:
  227.  
  228. It's not necessary.
  229.  
  230. ------------------------------------------------
  231.  
  232. #### Author: Makaze
  233. #### Posted:
  234.  
  235. Okay.
  236.  
  237. ------------------------------------------------
  238.  
  239. #### Author: Makaze
  240. #### Posted:
  241.  
  242. Shooting Haku instead.
  243.  
  244. ------------------------------------------------
  245.  
  246. #### Author: WolfOwl
  247. #### Posted:
  248.  
  249. Please don't. That's an ally of mine.
  250.  
  251. ------------------------------------------------
  252.  
  253. #### Author: Makaze
  254. #### Posted:
  255.  
  256. Who is it?
  257.  
  258. ------------------------------------------------
  259.  
  260. #### Author: WolfOwl
  261. #### Posted:
  262.  
  263. I can't tell you that. But please don't.
  264.  
  265. ------------------------------------------------
  266.  
  267. #### Author: Makaze
  268. #### Posted:
  269.  
  270. I can't make any promises without an exchange. What will you give me?
  271.  
  272. ------------------------------------------------
  273.  
  274. #### Author: WolfOwl
  275. #### Posted:
  276.  
  277. If you target hajime kindaichi tonight your shot will be wasted.
  278.  
  279. ------------------------------------------------
  280.  
  281. #### Author: Makaze
  282. #### Posted:
  283.  
  284. Why is that?
  285.  
  286. ------------------------------------------------
  287.  
  288. #### Author: WolfOwl
  289. #### Posted:
  290.  
  291. An ability that blocks everything that hits the person as well as blocking their shot as well.
  292.  
  293. ------------------------------------------------
  294.  
  295. #### Author: Makaze
  296. #### Posted:
  297.  
  298. Ah, right.
  299.  
  300. Unfortunately, that's not worth enough since I'm not targeting them. I wouldn't have asked for that, so sorry you gave it up.
  301.  
  302. If it is you, you can just take my deal, and use your actions for me. If it is an ally, they can take it instead. Either way, those are the kinds of no shoots I offer (as I said in the thread).
  303.  
  304. ------------------------------------------------
  305.  
  306. #### Author: Makaze
  307. #### Posted:
  308.  
  309. Out of curiosity, is it that they are being jailed by someone else, or is that their ability?
  310.  
  311. ------------------------------------------------
  312.  
  313. #### Author: WolfOwl
  314. #### Posted:
  315.  
  316. Jailing.
  317.  
  318. And what do you consider to be worth enough?
  319.  
  320. ------------------------------------------------
  321.  
  322. #### Author: Makaze
  323. #### Posted:
  324.  
  325. Having someone I want killed, or, depending on the powers you have to offer, using one of those on who I'd like.
  326.  
  327. ------------------------------------------------
  328.  
  329. #### Author: WolfOwl
  330. #### Posted:
  331.  
  332. Wow that's low.
  333.  
  334. That kind of pushes away your deal doesn't it.
  335.  
  336. ------------------------------------------------
  337.  
  338. #### Author: Makaze
  339. #### Posted:
  340.  
  341. No? My deal is that you use your role how I want one night, and you don't get shot by me or my allies that or any other night.
  342.  
  343. ------------------------------------------------
  344.  
  345. #### Author: WolfOwl
  346. #### Posted:
  347.  
  348. That's blackmail and threatening not a deal.
  349.  
  350. ------------------------------------------------
  351.  
  352. #### Author: Makaze
  353. #### Posted:
  354.  
  355. It can be interpreted that way. A logical consequence of me offering this deal is that anyone who doesn't take it, can be shot. If I offered no shoots to people who didn't help, too, I'd end up not shooting anyone night 1.
  356.  
  357. ------------------------------------------------
  358.  
  359. #### Author: WolfOwl
  360. #### Posted:
  361.  
  362. Threatening just puts you on everyone hit list.
  363.  
  364. ------------------------------------------------
  365.  
  366. #### Author: Makaze
  367. #### Posted:
  368.  
  369. Just being in the game is a threat. From a logical standpoint, if you aren't going to the end of the game with me, then you need to die at some point.
  370.  
  371. Imagine you are a doctor. You help someone who isn't me. I either have to kill you, or your allies, because that power is too good to let go to someone else. Most people would just tell you "alright" and shoot you anyway, knowing you won't work with them.
  372.  
  373. Instead of being a backstabber, I keep my deals. It might seem like I'm stabbing you in the front, but I'm being a lot nicer than the people who don't give you the chance.
  374.  
  375. My deals stay open as long as you're alive.
  376.  
  377. ------------------------------------------------
  378.  
  379. #### Author: WolfOwl
  380. #### Posted:
  381.  
  382. There is this more honorable thing called not even telling your enemies anything. Im not going to contact someone I plan on killing or be friendly with them. You instead just put on a friendly faces and then flipped. You're targeting my ally, asked for information as a reason not to, and I gave you some. And you continue threatening despite me giving much more information to you than you have given me. And the return is threats. You are backstabbing.
  383.  
  384. ------------------------------------------------
  385.  
  386. #### Author: Makaze
  387. #### Posted:
  388.  
  389. Since we do not have any deals, I am not going back on any word I have made.
  390.  
  391. As a rule, I shoot aliases I don't know the identity of. Haku is one of the few I can't find.
  392.  
  393. This is more honorable because if someone else did this, they would not offer the deal I am, and they would even tell you they weren't shooting Haku, but would lie about it.
  394.  
  395. This way, I am not lying to you. There is honor in honesty, even if it's not something you'd like.
  396.  
  397. ------------------------------------------------
  398.  
  399. #### Author: WolfOwl
  400. #### Posted:
  401.  
  402. There is no honor in what you're doing. I told you haku is my ally. I have one ally. But I won't tell you who they are because I'm not going to rat out my single ally.
  403.  
  404. ------------------------------------------------
  405.  
  406. #### Author: Makaze
  407. #### Posted:
  408.  
  409. Then why not take the deal? I didn't say I had to know who that was to not shoot them. I just need someone, you or them, to use their actions where I want, for one night (tonight).
  410.  
  411. ------------------------------------------------
  412.  
  413. #### Author: WolfOwl
  414. #### Posted:
  415.  
  416. No.
  417.  
  418. We have reasons for our actions and we won't bow down to you.
  419.  
  420. Word of advice if your going to contact someone acting nice, don't pull what you just did with me. Saying who you ere planning between and asking if any of them were a problem I thought maybe later in the game I could trust you. But now I see you are nothing but the worst to trust.
  421.  
  422. ------------------------------------------------
  423.  
  424. #### Author: Makaze
  425. #### Posted:
  426.  
  427. Sigh. The fact is, I am dangerous if you aren't with me, but I am one of the few who keep their words when I make a promise.
  428.  
  429. There is a simple strategy I employ. Pick an unknown alias. Ask people if it is alright to shoot. If it's not, ask for more info. Whether I get it or not, I pick another alias, going down the list. Eventually, I will reach an alias that almost no one has a problem with me shooting. I shoot that person, because that person is, by process of elimination, the one person I can't control, and therefore it is someone who might shoot me at random, without me even knowing.
  430.  
  431. In a game where everyone has someone who objects, I have to pick among people who aren't truly unknowable (because no one is).
  432.  
  433. This is one of those cases.
  434.  
  435. It's not a matter of trust. Since I will actually shoot who I say I will shoot, it is simply using the mechanics of the game to get what I want.
  436.  
  437. I don't lie. I don't break promises.
  438.  
  439. Trust is built on truth and deal keeping. Out of anyone (other than your hard ally), someone like me, while dangerous, is someone you know how to deal with.
  440.  
  441. If you don't open up to working with people, you will be shot. Not because others are mean, but because they can't control you. If they want to win, they have to kill people they can't control. Therefore, most people will pretend that you can control them, by saying they will shoot who you want. And they will be lying. If they find someone else who is willing to work with them, they will shoot you instead of them.
  442.  
  443. Standing on principle when all I want is to cooperate won't save your friends. Even if I don't shoot them, someone else will, because I know I'm not the only one you are so closed off with. In an ironic twist, the more trusting you are in this game, the less of a threat you are to others.
  444.  
  445. Given a choice between shooting someone who says "no" to an info swap, but who is found through process of elimination, and someone who says "yes" to an info swap, which do you think the person who asked you both will choose to shoot? The one who doesn't trust him, and therefore can't be trusted back.
  446.  
  447. My deals are concrete ways around that. I don't need your trust. I just need your help.
  448.  
  449. ------------------------------------------------
  450.  
  451. #### Author: WolfOwl
  452. #### Posted:
  453.  
  454. I'm seeing babble. You just said the one who's says no is more likely to be shot but guess what I didn't say no, so you're lying. And considering I asked if anyone was a problem for me to shoot you said no. Thus I figured none of the three j have you were you're allies or you and decided they were safe choices. If you had said otherwise then I would have made sure they weren't targeted at the current time and that would have been the start of a trusted relationship. But instead you're threatening me despite me giving you information in exchange and for that reason you are an enemy now. You can choose to back off now before it's too late or you can continue and put yourself on my hit list. Originally the only ones on my radar were those I knew were dangerous players becaiee they're likely to backstab for their wincon. Your choice if you want on that list.
  455.  
  456. ------------------------------------------------
  457.  
  458. #### Author: Makaze
  459. #### Posted:
  460.  
  461. I'm going to have to stop you.
  462.  
  463. > Makaze said:
  464. >
  465. > Want to swap aliases/roles?
  466.  
  467. > WolfOwl said:
  468. >
  469. > No. I'm not giving out information so easily. Also make sure to add Elieson to this conversation
  470.  
  471. > Makaze said:
  472. >
  473. > Wow, that's more brusque than I expected.
  474. >
  475. > Done.
  476. >
  477. > Perhaps you prefer action exchange. Did you read my deal?
  478.  
  479. > WolfOwl said:
  480. >
  481. > Was that the one about no killing?
  482. >
  483. > Only four can win this game assuming one doesn't have a different wincon. I don't want to trust too easily.
  484.  
  485. I took this as a no and you did not clarify or ask for terms. By any stretch of the imagination, you turned me down.
  486.  
  487. Now I asked you directly, and you told me no, because now it's blackmail.
  488.  
  489. Please. You said no. You implied no. You said no again.
  490.  
  491. Emotions running high.
  492.  
  493. ------------------------------------------------
  494.  
  495. #### Author: WolfOwl
  496. #### Posted:
  497.  
  498. Actually if you properly re read you see I gave info for info and told you we would see if I would trust you. I told you it's high risk to trust easily. I don't give anyone the big information immediately.
  499.  
  500. But that's fine. The war is on if that's what you believ. I've lost all chance of trusting you now.
  501.  
  502. ------------------------------------------------
  503.  
  504. #### Author: Makaze
  505. #### Posted:
  506.  
  507. When I said "info swap" I meant role or alias swap. Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear.
  508.  
  509. "Want to info swap?" = "Want to trade our roles and/or aliases?"
  510.  
  511. In common terminology.
  512.  
  513. Exchanging who we're shooting is technically "swapping" "information" but isn't what is thought of when the term is said.
  514.  
  515. ------------------------------------------------
  516.  
  517. #### Author: WolfOwl
  518. #### Posted:
  519.  
  520. Actually info means info and is not specific to that kind of thing. When I'm talking I simple swap info for actual info of usually equal value.
  521.  
  522. ------------------------------------------------
  523.  
  524. #### Author: Makaze
  525. #### Posted:
  526.  
  527. In this game, at least among my community, when we say we swapped info with someone, we mean we got their role and/or alias.
  528.  
  529. When I said it, that was what I meant.
  530.  
  531. And if you are more stingy than others with such info, you have to be open in other areas to compensate.
  532.  
  533. ------------------------------------------------
  534.  
  535. #### Author: WolfOwl
  536. #### Posted:
  537.  
  538. See you're not understanding something. Info for info of the same kind is the best, but when someone threatens someone who gave them more than they gave, that's low. No one trusts someone like that.
  539.  
  540. ------------------------------------------------
  541.  
  542. #### Author: Makaze
  543. #### Posted:
  544.  
  545. ... I get what you're saying, but you're missing my point too.
  546.  
  547. This is a zero sum game.
  548.  
  549. Someone ask Player A and Player B "Want to swap role/alias?"
  550.  
  551. Player A says no, only shot info.
  552.  
  553. Player B says yes.
  554.  
  555. The person who asked eventually whittles it down to where they have Player A's alias, if not role, by elimination (more or less).
  556.  
  557. They have to pick one of the two to shoot.
  558.  
  559. Which is more of a threat? The one who trusts them enough to give them their info, or the one who is hedging their bets and waiting for a better offer?
  560.  
  561. It's not just about what you've offered them. It's about what others have offered them. If you bring less to the table than... literally anyone, then you end up the one who gets shot. It's the economy of information.
  562.  
  563. You have to offer something better than alias and role to compensate for what you lack.
  564.  
  565. ------------------------------------------------
  566.  
  567. #### Author: WolfOwl
  568. #### Posted:
  569.  
  570. Give an alias, you're easy to take down. The advantage of this game is that we have aliases. If we didn't then I could take down my enemies easily.
  571.  
  572. ------------------------------------------------
  573.  
  574. #### Author: Makaze
  575. #### Posted:
  576.  
  577. Your idea works if no one gives theirs away, but that's not how it works in practice. Unless you can control others, you will be found out because they allowed you to be identified by a process of elimination.
  578.  
  579. Then you get people like me who can solve the list even if people don't give me info by probing about if X is okay to shoot. Since I really will shoot them, it is highly effective, and there is nothing you can do about it except give me something to make me move off.
  580.  
  581. This may seem cutthroat, but since I only go for people I don't know, it's a relatively perfect strategy. Until you run into someone who would rather lose than let you gain an advantage.
  582.  
  583. ------------------------------------------------
  584.  
  585. #### Author: WolfOwl
  586. #### Posted:
  587.  
  588. And what happens at the end when you're controlling everyone?
  589.  
  590. ------------------------------------------------
  591.  
  592. #### Author: Makaze
  593. #### Posted:
  594.  
  595. If I have made a deal with everyone alive, I idle. My deals have to come first, or no one will trust me.
  596.  
  597. I don't make the deal with enough people that I get into that situation. In general, the people I make the deal with shoot each other without my knowledge. Since they know I won't have them killed, they go for other people. I've never actually gotten to a point where _everyone_ alive had made the deal. Cross that bridge when I come to it.
  598.  
  599. ------------------------------------------------
  600.  
  601. #### Author: WolfOwl
  602. #### Posted:
  603.  
  604. And you'll turn on them and be the last one standing.
  605.  
  606. ------------------------------------------------
  607.  
  608. #### Author: Makaze
  609. #### Posted:
  610.  
  611. Nope. I never turn on people I make deals to. It's what makes the system work. If I don't try to hurt anyone, then they won't try to hurt me. I become the last priority. The minute I become a real threat, then they shoot me. I can't afford that.
  612.  
  613. ------------------------------------------------
  614.  
  615. #### Author: WolfOwl
  616. #### Posted:
  617.  
  618. You can't make deals with everyone and expect not to have to turn on someone. You have to pick and choose wisely. So far you chose horribly.
  619.  
  620. ------------------------------------------------
  621.  
  622. #### Author: Makaze
  623. #### Posted:
  624.  
  625. > WolfOwl said:
  626. >
  627. > You can't make deals with everyone and expect not to have to turn on someone. You have to pick and choose wisely. So far you chose horribly.
  628.  
  629. We'll see.
  630.  
  631. I pick and choose who I make deals with. I don't go back on them once made. I might make deals with 6-8 people throughout the game. Earlier the better. I do not expect them all to live to the endgame, but I do not contribute to their deaths, and tell others not to shoot them if I know about it. At the end game, in the absurd scenario that all of them are the only people alive, then I idle. But that hasn't happened.
  632.  
  633. I do not make deals when I have at least a third of the players in debt to me. I only make more deals when I need to, for protection and so on. I need to be flexible in the later game. So almost all of my deals are for the first two nights, unless all of them die.
  634.  
  635. Neither all dead or all alive has happened yet.
  636.  
  637. ------------------------------------------------
  638.  
  639. #### Author: Makaze
  640. #### Posted:
  641.  
  642. I see you've found me, but have learned an important lesson.
  643.  
  644. I'm not so easy to get rid of.
  645.  
  646. ------------------------------------------------
  647.  
  648. #### Author: WolfOwl
  649. #### Posted:
  650.  
  651. Um......I targeted Oberon which was Lord Gaius.
  652.  
  653. ------------------------------------------------
  654.  
  655. #### Author: Makaze
  656. #### Posted:
  657.  
  658. Good one.
  659.  
  660. ------------------------------------------------
  661.  
  662. #### Author: WolfOwl
  663. #### Posted:
  664.  
  665. Unfortunately I don't know your alias. I'm away right now on a small vacation so I don't have much time for chitchat until I get back.
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