The Market Fundamentalism of LordGloom

10:24:51 AM Stopped ignoring LordGloom!*@*
10:24:55 AM→ StJude has joined
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10:25:04 AM+LordGloomi have fear of evil
10:25:14 AM+RenjinFor example, Charlottesville.
10:25:14 AM+LordGloomi want to prevent evil events
10:25:20 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I have removed you from ignore.
10:25:29 AM+worldisflat1prostitution is evil and crime against women
10:25:50 AM+LordGloomworldisflat, maybe the real crime is giving the women no other alternative
10:25:53 AM+worldisflat1prostitution is illegal in iran too
10:26:18 AM+LordGloommaybe that is who should pay, the government that produced those women should make sure they have a way to survive provided they are not risking getting pregnant
10:26:27 AM+worldisflat1slavery took a different form StJude
10:26:31 AM+LordGloom and if some women want to risk it anyway and forgoe the govenrment benefits then its on them
10:26:44 AM+worldisflat1corporations are enslaving humans everywhere
10:27:15 AM+Guest45903o okay
10:27:26 AM+LordGloomwhat if it was a star ship with limited resources
10:27:26 AM+worldisflat1StJude slavery is not legal iran,you are conflating your buddy Saudi Arabia with iran
10:27:30 AM+LordGloomwhat should happen then?
10:27:35 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Choices under duress have a different quality than choices free of duress.
10:27:44 AM+LordGloomwhat should happen when someone has a baby , and cant support it
10:27:47 AM+Guest45903So if a woman chooses to sell sex that's a crime against her? odd.
10:28:37 AM+RenjinGuest45903: It depends on the context of that act.
10:28:46 AM+LordGloomif sex didnt feel good and make babies, people wouldnt care if peopel were selling it. its mostly about making sure people dont feel too good, and dont make too many people
10:28:53 AM+RenjinYes, a woman 'choosing' to sell access to her body could be criminal to accept, in my view.
10:29:09 AM+RenjinI also think it could be a generic market practice in other contexts.
10:29:10 AM+LordGloomrenjin, only because of pregnancy and fetal rights
10:29:14 AM+LordGloomnot if she is sterile
10:29:16 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I disagree.
10:29:18 AM+Guest45903Renjin, the context of the act is the woman choosing to sell hr body for sex so that's not a crime against her.
10:29:30 AM+RenjinGuest45903: That is insufficient context.
10:29:38 AM+Guest45903Nope. It isn't.
10:29:39 AM+LordGloomrenjin, only if the person has some responsibility to help her
10:29:47 AM+RenjinLordGloom: The woman obviously has rights independent of her ability to get pregnant.
10:29:56 AM+RenjinThough, that might lead to some additional rights and constraints.
10:30:03 AM+Guest45903Here is the context. Men will pay quite a lot of money for sex if you know what you're doing so why the hell not take advantage of that :)
10:30:09 AM+worldisflat1StJude do you know many illigal immigrants are forced to work in harsh conditions in america,in factories,farms or hard works?
10:30:14 AM+Guest45903No one is forcing her. No one is committing any crime against her.
10:30:17 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Consent under duress is not consent
10:30:34 AM+RenjinGuest45903: Women in the situation you're describe are sometimes under duress.
10:30:38 AM+LordGloomrenjin, yeah but if its just her self at stake then its simpler. if i know she intends to have sex for money then leave the baby to starve, then i can stop her
10:30:47 AM+Guest45903Sometimes but that's an entirely different situation
10:30:54 AM+Guest45903that is not the situation I have laid out
10:31:03 AM+RenjinGuest45903: I support a woman doing with her body what she wants, if an oracle tells me there is no duress.
10:31:10 AM+Guest45903In THIS situation there is no duress. Simply what the woman wants to do and is happy to do it.
10:31:10 AM+RenjinBecause that's what self-ownership means.
10:31:20 AM+RenjinWhen humans have lots of options, they tend to not sell their body to strangers.
10:31:26 AM+LordGloomrenjin, so a woman in a cage with a tiger, and she asks me to give her the key, and i jus tsay no and walk away , is that legal?
10:31:29 AM+RenjinThere's a strong probability of duress present, given the context.
10:31:30 AM+LordGloomcan i just walk away?
10:31:47 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I do not desire the law and ethics to be entirely identical.
10:31:57 AM+Guest45903Renjin, I don't find debating with you to be particularly valuable.
10:32:05 AM+RenjinGuest45903: Then you should cease.
10:32:12 AM+worldisflat1consent is secular concept to begin with
10:32:15 AM+RenjinYou help the situation improve, if you believe it is improvable.
10:32:19 AM+Guest45903Maybe one day you'll learn how to have a discussion where you engage with the actual situation being presented
10:32:25 AM+Guest45903Bye.
10:32:28 AM+RenjinTake care.
10:32:37 AM Ignoring Guest45903!*@*
10:32:44 AM+worldisflat1sexual relationship outside marriage is sin to begin with,period
10:33:02 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I largely reject our punishment model of criminal justice.
10:33:06 AM+LordGloomrenjin, maybe its immoral to say , i wil give you the key but only if you let me give you oral sex. but it shouldnt be illegal
10:33:10 AM+RenjinWhich is a different topic, but related here.
10:33:11 AM+worldisflat1prostitution is a form of exploitation and disrespect towards women's dignity
10:33:21 AM+LordGloomunless you want to also give me a legal responsibility to give her the key
10:33:40 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Again, I'd first want to figure out what is 'correct'.
10:33:50 AM+RenjinI think it's correct to give her the key if you can do so while remaining safe.
10:34:01 AM+LordGloomcorrect means morally right?
10:34:03 AM+worldisflat1Guest45903 what are you talking about paul?
10:34:08 AM+RenjinIf you worry about the tiger getting out and harming you, then it might be correct to not do so.
10:34:26 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I sort of like the word 'correct' here, rather than moral.
10:34:33 AM+LordGloomno suppose it is not a risk , the tiger is chained in the cage
10:34:34 AM+RenjinThe assumption is that not all actions are equal.
10:34:55 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Then if the woman desires to get out of the cage you should give her the key as it is a small effort and could mean her life.
10:35:30 AM+RenjinI'd like that to be socially enforced, as I think it would lead to better societies when we can get help when fate isn't going our way.
10:35:41 AM+RenjinI would not want that to be socially enforced via punishment, though.
10:35:48 AM+LordGloombut it is wiser not to legally enforce it maybe
10:35:54 AM+RenjinI'd like a system that kept track of merit and you get 'rewarded' for that action.
10:36:07 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I care about the law much less than most people.
10:36:13 AM+RenjinBeing a stage-six Kohlberger.
10:36:20 AM+LordGloomwait, you mean punishment like jail or fine. not punishment like being kept out of a party, or some employer not hiring you
10:36:24 AM+RenjinThe law is a mechanism for other goals.
10:36:56 AM+RenjinLordGloom: There I arguably mean any action taken by an observing agent/collection of agents designed to worse the state of the person who did not give the key.
10:37:03 AM+RenjinHumans are sensitive to reward mechanisms.
10:37:17 AM+RenjinI think reward would be relatively sufficient method of social enforcement.
10:38:18 AM+worldisflat1StJude the problem world faces is an agreesive america hellbent on global domination
10:38:39 AM+RenjinAmerica is the primary impediment to world peace, according to Earthers.
10:38:43 AM+worldisflat1when USA says that 21st century will be America's century that is when trouble starts
10:38:44 AM+LordGloomrenjin, suspension of normal rights,
10:38:59 AM+Renjinworldisflat1: America is collapsing.
10:39:02 AM+LordGloomversus removal of privileges one is not entitled to normally
10:39:07 AM+RenjinIt isn't going to be an American century.
10:39:25 AM+RenjinThe 21st century will be about stateless entities, or possibly China or the EU.
10:39:29 AM+worldisflat1mankind is under threat from neo-liberalism
10:39:58 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I would not support removal of any rights for not giving the key.
10:40:25 AM+RenjinI would support conversation with the person, as long as they didn't participate in the woman finding herself in the cage, and reward of 'correct' behavior.
10:40:46 AM+LordGloomand maybe we differ as to whether not being discriminated against by an employer is a right or a privilege, but mostly we will agree on a fine being a removal of something that is normally a right, and jailing also
10:41:09 AM+RenjinIt's a right in my view.
10:41:37 AM+LordGloomyes
10:41:39 AM+RenjinIf an employer takes something into consideration and makes a negative determination, then the person is being punished.
10:42:00 AM+LordGloomrenjin, that is a privilege type thing. not a right thing
10:42:16 AM+LordGloombut i suppose if there was a contract it could be a right type thing
10:42:28 AM+LordGloom you have your own
10:42:43 AM+RenjinThe right is 'not punishable in this class of events'.
10:42:47 AM+LordGloomyou are allowd to breathe as often as you like usually. i mean if we are trapped in a mine maybe not
10:43:01 AM+RenjinI suppose I might be against punishment in all situations.
10:43:16 AM+RenjinI am for rewards and constraints.
10:43:20 AM+RenjinI don't know if that is insufficient.
10:43:44 AM+RenjinSo, if you raise a weapon to a person that it's incorrect to hit that weapon with, somebody can fling metal through your brain very rapidly.
10:43:46 AM+RenjinIf there are no alternatives
10:43:49 AM+RenjinThey're constraining you
10:44:32 AM+RenjinSociety is hard.
10:44:40 AM+LordGloomsomeone would be killing htem
10:44:44 AM+LordGloomnot realy murder
10:45:08 AM+RenjinCorrect action seems to including killing
10:45:20 AM+LordGloomyeah sometimes
10:45:26 AM+LordGloomsometimes it is moral to kill.
10:45:29 AM+RenjinI'm open to changing that view
10:45:40 AM+LordGloomlike when it is to save some innocent life from a evil killer
10:46:14 AM+RenjinOr, through the principle of monotonicity.
10:46:46 AM+RenjinLike, if Donald Trump, in a rage from his fear over his Russia treason for which he's being investigated, were to launch nukes against the entire planet
10:46:53 AM+RenjinThen I would support killing him, as he's dead either way
10:47:01 AM+LordGloomyeah that wouldnt be wrong
10:47:06 AM+LordGloomif you knew for sure
10:47:15 AM+LordGloomtrump is ok though
10:47:22 AM+LordGloomtrump is overall good for the world
10:47:34 AM+LordGloomstjude it saves many more lives
10:47:37 AM+RenjinPerhaps, but only in the way terrorism is good
10:47:46 AM+RenjinI think terrorism can be good, potentially
10:47:48 AM+RenjinWhy?
10:47:55 AM+LordGloomrenjin, trump is making strides to stop abortion
10:48:05 AM+RenjinIt can lead to a homogenization of suffering, causing the bully to constrain their future actions
10:48:15 AM+RenjinAbortion is a human right
10:48:26 AM+LordGloombut realistically terrorism is probably bad nowadays
10:48:28 AM+worldisflat1trump is a danger
10:48:31 AM+RenjinEvery liberal state on Earth recognizes it as such, as far as I know
10:48:31 AM+worldisflat1unstabke
10:48:36 AM+worldisflat1unstable
10:48:41 AM+worldisflat1unpridictable
10:49:05 AM+worldisflat1ready to push the nuke button
10:49:37 AM+RenjinAmerica is obviously out of control, both domestically and foreignly
10:49:54 AM+RenjinThe disaster that is Trump could help the world -- and Americans -- constrain future American actions
10:50:01 AM+RenjinAs obviously this country cannot continue in this state
10:50:07 AM+LordGloomrenjin, also what is so bad about talking to russia
10:50:14 AM+LordGloomeven if russia was putitng up ads for him
10:50:35 AM+LordGloomits free expression. i think foreign nations SHOULD meddle in each others elections. it sound like a good way to avoid wars
10:50:54 AM+LordGloomand we should not have these limits on how much a person can spend on their political speech
10:50:54 AM+RenjinLordGloom: It's bad when you do that with dishonest intentions which violate fundamental American notions after you repeatedly engaged in multiple conspiracies against the US via colluding with Russian agents
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10:51:34 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I think nations should communicate to each other, but not spread misinformation designed to ruin civil society
10:51:39 AM+LordGloom spend as much as you like., the more arguments circulating the better. any cop or fed who enforces those campaign finance laws should be jailed once we make it clear that it was a violation of the first amendment all along to have those laws.
10:51:52 AM+RenjinI do not support people spending unlimited money on elections
10:51:56 AM+RenjinThat prevents democracy
10:52:17 AM+LordGloomrenjin the cure for bad speech is more speech
10:52:20 AM+RenjinLordGloom: We have to constrain election spending for the same reason we had to pass the 1964 CRA
10:52:27 AM+LordGloom people need to be allowed to spend money for speech all they like
10:52:32 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Empirically, that isn't what is happening with spending of money on election
10:52:40 AM+RenjinWhat is happening is rich oligarchs are annihilating our democracy
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10:52:43 AM+LordGloomrenjin, we shouldnt have passed that either
10:52:45 AM+RenjinUltimately leading to less free speech
10:52:51 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I know that you believe that, but you're wrong
10:52:55 AM+LordGloomthen address that with taxes
10:52:59 AM+RenjinThere is a Laffer curve for spending on elections as free speech
10:53:07 AM+LordGloomno need to make speech illegal or tax it
10:53:19 AM+RenjinYour naive attempt at unconstrained free speech actually leads to less than my constrained approach
10:53:23 AM+RenjinThat is, what you value, you get more of in my system
10:53:52 AM+RenjinLordGloom: If it could be shown that you get more free speech in my system, all other things being equal, would you choose my system over yours?
10:54:06 AM+LordGloom     we should not be having campaign conribution limits
10:54:53 AM+LordGloomwhat about that 2 thousand dollar thing
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10:55:21 AM+LordGloomif i want to pay some candidate more than that to spread his message and the feds come after me for doing so those feds should be jailed
10:55:24 AM+LordGloomand convicted
10:55:58 AM+LordGloomstjude, my source is my recollection that there seems to be some restriction on donating more than 2000 dollars to a campaign
10:56:02 AM+RenjinYou should not have limitations on the words you say
10:56:03 AM+LordGloomi dont knwo the law
10:56:08 AM+RenjinYou should have limitations on the money you spend on elections
10:56:19 AM+RenjinBecause there is too much wealth inequality to allow that and also have democracy
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10:56:58 AM+LordGloomrenjin, if there are some people who dont have as much as they should then government can give them more through taxes. there is no reason to limit  directly how much other people can spend for even more speech
10:57:26 AM+LordGloomstjude, recently was there a change?
10:57:40 AM+RenjinLordGloom: You skipped over the critical question I asked.
10:57:47 AM+RenjinLordGloom: If it could be shown that you get more free speech in my system, all other things being equal, would you choose my system over yours?
10:57:59 AM+LordGloomrenjin i dont knwo, maybe
10:58:07 AM+LordGloomits unclear what that means exactly
10:58:20 AM+RenjinYour idea of unlimited spending is a very terrible idea.
10:58:26 AM+RenjinHow do you get money in a system?
10:58:34 AM+RenjinBy being 'successful' in the rules of that system
10:58:49 AM+RenjinAnd so when you allowed unlimited spending, you allow the system to reinforce its current configuration
10:58:57 AM+RenjinAnd what if a system finds itself in a poor configuration
10:59:04 AM+RenjinThen that poor configuration propagates itself for a long time
10:59:30 AM+RenjinThat is why elections need to be held in ways that do not tie themselves too much to 'success' in the current configuration
10:59:33 AM+LordGloomthe big risk your way is that ideas will be supressed
10:59:38 AM+RenjinSo that we can freshly evaluate our choices on a recurring basis
10:59:45 AM+LordGloomthat outweighs every other concern just about
10:59:49 AM+RenjinLordGloom: That occurs much more under your system
11:00:01 AM+LordGloomit depends how
11:00:06 AM+LordGloomthey are suprresed
11:00:08 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Say there are X views in a society competing for leadership in the next cycle
11:00:22 AM+RenjinIn my view, each of those views are roughly empowered by the number of *people* who support those views
11:00:44 AM+RenjinAnd so the views with the most *people* supporting them get a turn (especially in ranked choice voting systems and parliamentary systems).
11:00:53 AM+RenjinIn your view, though, say you still have those same X views
11:01:00 AM+LordGloomso what if there is only a certain amount of billboard space available on the road, and some billionaire buys it all
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11:01:07 AM+RenjinWell, now some of those views get extra spreading based off the *dollars* supporting them
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11:01:32 AM+RenjinLordGloom: The government should help create neutral forums for candidates to share their views
11:01:39 AM+LordGloomrenjin that would be ok
11:01:39 AM+RenjinThat is, only public funding of elections
11:01:50 AM+LordGloommaybe
11:01:55 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Your situation is just expressly anti-democratic
11:02:03 AM+LordGloombut that is differnet than telling people they arent allowed to have any more billboards
11:02:05 AM+RenjinWhile appearing naively democratic
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11:02:34 AM+LordGloomi dont like people having to pay for speech they dont agre with though
11:02:54 AM+RenjinIf there are 100 people in a country, and 1 person has 1000x wealth, and the 99 people have 1x wealth, allowing unlimited spending heavily moves you away from democracy
11:03:01 AM+LordGloomif government wanted to give people billboards and let them fill it however they want. and give one to each person that would be ok with me.
11:03:02 AM+LordGloom but
11:03:04 AM+RenjinLordGloom: They're not paying for the speech
11:03:15 AM+LordGloom i dont want govenrment telling someone he can't buy thousands more billboards
11:03:19 AM+RenjinThey're paying for the forum which builds them a great nation by allowing competing viewpoints to express themselves
11:03:24 AM+RenjinThey're buying the infrastructure
11:03:34 AM+RenjinThe people use that infrastructure to spread the messages important to them in elections
11:03:50 AM+LordGloomrenjin, people should get ot own private property too
11:03:58 AM+LordGloomand put up their own messages
11:03:58 AM+RenjinAllowing only oligarchs to do $10million ad buys in major markets does not lead to robust free speech
11:04:03 AM+LordGloomand nto have government say , no that it too many
11:04:17 AM+RenjinLordGloom: People can do whatever they want in that regard with their political views
11:04:31 AM+RenjinWhen it comes to donating money, there should be strict limits that require mass movements for success
11:04:36 AM+RenjinWith some core of public funding
11:04:45 AM+LordGloomno we shouold not be restrticting donations at all
11:04:53 AM+RenjinThe Bernie Sanders model -- $27 dollar contributions
11:04:55 AM+LordGloomthat is government seizing welath that it does not own
11:04:58 AM+RenjinOh god
11:05:00 AM+RenjinI just went over that
11:05:04 AM+RenjinYou're repeating your thesis
11:05:30 AM+LordGloomyou can do that in some government owned forum
11:05:44 AM+LordGloom but you should have to let the people make their own forums too and not limit that one
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11:05:52 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Are you familiar with the Laffer curve
11:06:01 AMⓘ Debates set mode -b *!*Ziddy@*memelife.ca
11:06:03 AM+LordGloomregardless of whether one view starts to get way more views
11:06:25 AM+RenjinBuilding complex systems like societies from only first principles, without integrating empirical data, is extremely flawed
11:06:31 AM+RenjinHumans cannot reason at that level
11:06:50 AM+RenjinFrom first principles, I like the idea of people determining how much money to give, without restrictinos
11:06:54 AM+RenjinBut it doesn't work in our society
11:07:01 AM+RenjinAnd what you get, in our society, is the mafia running the country
11:07:13 AM+LordGloomok i just read about it , what about it
11:07:27 AM+RenjinThe Laffer curve applies to free speech and donating money
11:07:37 AM+RenjinIf you allow no money to be donated, perhaps you are restricting free speech too much
11:07:44 AM+LordGloomi am sympathetic to preventing mafias, but ther are ways to do it that dont violate free expression
11:07:46 AM+RenjinIf you allow unlimited donations, given wealth inequality, you get very low free speech
11:07:50 AM+LordGloomthat are better than what you propose
11:07:53 AM+RenjinSo there's a maximum somewhere between the two extremes
11:08:05 AM+RenjinLordGloom: The nation has bone cancer.
11:08:15 AM+RenjinYou're debating these theoretical principles while the mafia is running the country
11:08:19 AM+RenjinYou have lost serious perspective
11:08:31 AM+RenjinTrump and Cohen are mafia figures
11:08:40 AM+RenjinAs are the Russian agents who helped them via social media
11:08:48 AM+RenjinIs there a lot of freedom in Russia, LordGloom?
11:08:53 AM+LordGloomhelping via social media is fine
11:08:57 AM+LordGloom evne if it is russia funded
11:09:10 AM+RenjinIs there a lot of freedom in Russia, LordGloom?
11:09:10 AM+LordGloomi dont approve of russia's lack of free expression
11:09:15 AM+LordGloomi dont know
11:09:18 AM+RenjinAnd what is the cause of that lack of free expression
11:09:20 AM+RenjinYou don't know?
11:09:20 AM+LordGloomprobably not as good as here
11:09:28 AM+RenjinThe country is a disaster
11:09:30 AM+LordGloomi dont know
11:09:38 AM+LordGloom , maybe stupid people not holding out for a good government, maybe mafia
11:09:42 AM+RenjinWell, don't you think you have an obligation to learn a little more about Russia
11:09:48 AM+LordGloomno
11:09:56 AM+RenjinLordGloom: If you get the wrong people in charge, they aren't going to allow you to donate to whatever candidates you want
11:09:58 AM+RenjinStop being naive
11:10:10 AM+RenjinThey're going to *kill* the candidates that threaten them
11:10:13 AM+RenjinYou know, like Putin has done repeatedly
11:10:16 AM+LordGloomtrue
11:10:26 AM+LordGloombut you risk that more your way
11:10:27 AM+RenjinSo you have to stop that from occurring, if you like free speech
11:10:32 AM+RenjinAnd that involves restricting money donations
11:10:39 AM+LordGloomno that is more of a risk of it
11:10:43 AM+RenjinOh you shitting me
11:10:48 AM+LordGloomno i am not
11:10:50 AM+RenjinWe currently have the mafia running the country
11:10:53 AM+RenjinAnd what is the cause of that/
11:11:00 AM+RenjinIs it from restrictions on money spent on elections?
11:11:04 AM+RenjinAbsolutely not
11:11:08 AM+LordGlooma little
11:11:12 AM+RenjinIt's caused, in large part, by unregulated spending on campaigns
11:11:17 AM+RenjinWhich includes foreign governments
11:11:23 AM+RenjinVia unregulated 'dark money' donations
11:11:36 AM+RenjinThis is absolutely impossible to maintain with an American democracy
11:11:53 AM+RenjinLordGloom: We're one election away from justifying violence against our leaders
11:12:08 AM+RenjinYou don't understand where we are at
11:12:17 AM+RenjinYou are playing games with your life
11:12:25 AM+RenjinThese mafia figures that you love, don't give a fuck about you
11:12:29 AM+RenjinWho are you, some poor white person?
11:12:37 AM+RenjinThey don't give a fuck about poor white people who vote for them
11:12:39 AM+RenjinYou're cattle
11:12:49 AM+RenjinNow, if you have >$10million in the bank, then you're being rational
11:12:57 AM+RenjinCause you're gonna score big in this burning of America to the ground
11:13:19 AM+RenjinLet us reread part of the Declaration of Independence of America:
11:13:20 AM+RenjinThat to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
11:13:39 AM+RenjinPrudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.
11:13:59 AM+Renjin2018 Nov is the deadline for "long train of abuses and usurpations".
11:14:08 AM+RenjinRussia is planning on disrupting our election MORE than in 2016
11:14:12 AM+RenjinThere are no serious attempts to secure our elections
11:14:29 AM+RenjinViolence is justified, according to the American Declaration of Independence, at that point
11:14:30 AM+LordGloomrenjin, i want to hear all the arguments russia might make
11:14:44 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Wanna hear my immediate response?
11:14:49 AM+RenjinIt's not my best response
11:14:49 AM+LordGloom if they want to spend lot sof money to persuade us, maybe they will come up with some good points
11:15:03 AM+RenjinMy immediate response: You fucking dummy
11:15:11 AM+LordGloomits fine
11:15:18 AM+LordGloom i dont mind hearing your gut reaction
11:15:21 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Congress has released thousands of ads bought by Russia during the 2016 election
11:15:24 AM+RenjinHave you analyzed them?
11:15:28 AM+LordGloomno
11:15:37 AM+RenjinSo you're not that interested in hearing all their arguments, then
11:15:43 AM+LordGloom i liked RT thogh
11:15:56 AM+LordGloomi am interested in them being out there, so i might hear them
11:16:00 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Analyses have been done of the ads bought
11:16:08 AM+Renjin50% of them are about stoking racial tensions
11:16:14 AM+LordGloomthats ok
11:16:23 AM+RenjinVirtually all of them are about exploiting various factional conflicts between groups of Americans
11:16:26 AM+LordGloomthat will only help us actually overall
11:16:29 AM+RenjinHow is that 'making an argument'
11:16:43 AM+LordGloom evne if russia was saying things i disagree with , let them
11:16:47 AM+RenjinLordGloom: You see how you come across as a shill for Russia, right
11:16:53 AM+LordGloomno
11:16:54 AM+RenjinI'm saying, Russia is going to do X, and X is bad
11:17:00 AM+RenjinYou say, I don't know, I want to see what's in X
11:17:06 AM+RenjinI say, Oh, they already did X. What did you think?
11:17:07 AM+LordGloomwait what is a shill? can it be someone who doesnt realize?
11:17:11 AM+RenjinYou say, Oh, I haven't looked at it
11:17:20 AM+RenjinSo you're obviously *not* interested in hearing their argument
11:17:24 AM+RenjinAs the data is currently available to you
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11:17:31 AM+LordGloomnot enough to go web searching for it
11:17:37 AM+RenjinYou are interested in making general supportive arguments on behalf of the gangster Putin
11:17:41 AM+LordGloombut enough that i dont want it censored
11:17:48 AM+LordGloom if it is good it will spread and i will se it
11:17:56 AM+LordGloomif it is compelling sounding i mean
11:18:01 AMⓘ Debates set mode +l 69
11:18:46 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Why do these Russian agents not spread their messages in official forums?
11:18:53 AM+RenjinWhy do they impersonate Americans to spread their message
11:19:00 AM+LordGloomso they dont get discounted
11:19:02 AM+RenjinDo you support that kind of dishonesty
11:19:07 AM+LordGloomi want it allowed
11:19:15 AM+LordGloomi might even support it in some instances
11:19:29 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Would you like to live in Russia?
11:19:41 AM+LordGloomi would not do it maybe, but i might simply not say who i was
11:19:46 AM+LordGloomi dont think so
11:19:54 AM+LordGloomimean the women are pretty but
11:19:58 AM+LordGloomi want free speech
11:20:03 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Why do you wish to have Russia export the culture that leads to a society you don't want to live in
11:20:16 AM+RenjinLordGloom: The actions of these Russian agents are designed to kill free speech
11:20:18 AM+RenjinYou see that, right
11:20:23 AM+LordGloomno i dont seet hat
11:20:29 AM+RenjinIs there free speech in Russia?
11:20:34 AM+LordGloom and even if it did seem that way, i would want t allowed
11:20:47 AM+LordGloomi wouldnt fund it, but i would let them say it
11:20:58 AM+RenjinLordGloom: So, to be clear, you'd like to not live in Russia, but you'd like all the causal factors that lead to Russian society to flourish
11:21:07 AM+LordGloom i think there is not good free speech in russia
11:21:10 AM+RenjinWhich will cause some or maybe all to live in Russia like states
11:21:30 AM+RenjinSo you support things that led to states you don't want
11:21:35 AM+LordGloomno it look slike campaign finance laws are what risk that
11:21:37 AM+RenjinBecause you have a naive belief about markets sorting it out
11:21:41 AM+LordGloomyes
11:21:49 AM+LordGloom it is somewhat about that
11:21:53 AM+RenjinMarkets are groups of people
11:21:58 AM+RenjinGroups of people are often wrong
11:22:01 AM+RenjinAgreed?
11:22:10 AM+LordGloomyes
11:22:18 AM+RenjinSo the outcomes of markets are often wrong, then
11:22:28 AM+LordGloomyes
11:22:46 AM+RenjinLordGloom: You exist in a binary state game
11:22:54 AM+RenjinState X and state Y
11:22:59 AM+LordGloomi am not ignoring non zerio sum games
11:23:07 AM+RenjinCurrently, the odds the game will be in state X in the next round is 1/2 and 1/2 for state Y
11:23:20 AM+RenjinYou strongly dislike state X and desire state Y
11:23:43 AM+RenjinAn action is proposed that will increase the odds of state X to 70% and diminish Y to 30%.
11:23:47 AM+RenjinThere are no hidden variables
11:23:50 AM+RenjinDo you support this action?
11:24:09 AM+LordGloomno
11:24:22 AM+LordGloomi dont suppor tit
11:24:27 AM+RenjinThe actions of Russian agents increase the odds of societies that are undesirable
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11:24:32 AM+RenjinOne of two things is true, then:
11:24:38 AM+RenjinYou are wrong when you say you support them
11:24:43 AM+LordGloomnot as much as the campaign finance restrictions
11:24:45 AM+RenjinOr, you believe there is some other thing of value that their actions are increasing
11:24:48 AM+RenjinWhich is it?
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11:25:33 AM+LordGloomif i could convince them not to say things i might. but even then i might rather have them say it. it depends, the real problem is OUTLAWING their speech . that is a different thing than simply persuadeing them not to say it
11:25:39 AM+RenjinOkay, you feel campaign finance restrictions are more damaging than agents of Russia, which is a mafia state where the head of state Putin kills his own people and has stolen $200 billion from them, pretending to be Americans to sow massive conflict between groups of humans by essentially lying and distorting reality
11:25:58 AM+RenjinI do not propose outlawing Russians sharing their perspectives
11:26:01 AMⓘ Debates set mode -b *!*uid268297@*.hathersage.irccloud.com
11:26:10 AM+RenjinI propose outlawing foreign agents from impersonating Americans to swing elections
11:26:20 AM+LordGloomno let them do it
11:26:34 AM+LordGloom its fine its best to allow us all to try schemes like that
11:26:34 AM+RenjinWhat other thing are we gaining, since we're losing something
11:26:51 AM+RenjinCan you tell you're essentially repeating your axiom over and over again
11:26:56 AM+RenjinWith relatively low quality argumentation
11:27:02 AM+LordGloomif it is really important then go after them with fraud, and have a place where all posters sign a contract
11:27:06 AM+RenjinThis is a heuristic that you're not sure how to defend your belief
11:27:10 AM+LordGloombut still allow places like 4chan too
11:27:15 AM+LordGloomwhere no contract is required
11:27:27 AM+RenjinWhat do you gain, since we're losing something
11:27:52 AM+LordGloomi gain a lack of chill on speech
11:27:59 AM+RenjinYour statement about "trying all schemes" is inconsistent with your worldview
11:28:10 AM+RenjinLordGloom: They have the ability to speak
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11:28:17 AM+LordGloomi dont want to force them to. i want to allow them to
11:28:25 AM+RenjinAs Russian agents, they can present their viewpoints on Russia letterhead and post it on Russian government websites
11:28:49 AM+RenjinAmericans who are interested in what Russia thinks -- which is not you -- could go to those websites
11:28:57 AM+RenjinWe previously established you're not actually interested in what Russia thinks
11:29:02 AM+RenjinAs you have not analyzed their messages we're describing
11:29:32 AM+LordGloomi am interested int he arguments themselves. i go after ones i find promising, and try to hear more.
11:29:42 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Should I be able to impersonate a doctor and try all sorts of schemes
11:29:48 AM+LordGloom so it is likely i have been interested in russian arguments without knowing who was making the argument
11:29:53 AM+RenjinYou are not interested in the arguments -- you've not inspect their arguments
11:30:00 AM+RenjinThey're not arguments, by the way
11:30:05 AM+LordGloomrenjin, perhaps, it depends whether you breach a contract
11:30:10 AM+RenjinIf we did it in chat we'd describe it as fallacious
11:30:16 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I haven't made any contracts with anybody
11:30:25 AM+RenjinI just think if I can impersonate a doctor I can make tons of money
11:30:31 AM+RenjinI have all sorts of schemes I'd like to try
11:30:36 AM+RenjinDoes that make American great?
11:30:39 AM+LordGloomit would be wrong. but i am not syaing it should be illegal
11:31:03 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I got this one woman to believe my argument she should give me all her money instead of taking her pills
11:31:08 AM+RenjinI got 50k. It was great
11:31:11 AM+RenjinYour thoughts?
11:31:14 AM+LordGloomif you sign a contract agreeing to pay some damage if you are lying about some doctor claim then we can enforce the contract
11:31:24 AM+RenjinNah, dawg, I told her contracts are for pussies
11:31:28 AM+RenjinAnd she was a True American Patriot
11:31:41 AM+RenjinI let her know I had the True Medicine, not the Fake Medicine in hospitals.
11:31:45 AM+Renjin50k, man
11:31:52 AM+RenjinPretty sweet argumentation
11:31:59 AM+RenjinYour thoughts?
11:32:13 AM+LordGloomi am leaning toward not forbidding it, and fixing the vu,lnerability other ways
11:32:18 AM+LordGloom that dont squelch speech
11:32:22 AM+RenjinI've actually identified this group of vulnerable Americans in nursing homes
11:32:32 AM+RenjinI'm thinking I could just take over the entire American medical system with my schems
11:32:46 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Pray tell, what other ways?
11:33:01 AM+RenjinWhile you're thinking about that, I'm taking over the American medical system
11:33:12 AM+RenjinOh, you aren't feeling ill, are ya?
11:33:18 AM+RenjinYou're gonna have some real fun with my argument
11:33:22 AM+LordGloomwe could just make it so they arent allowed to spend money in the health fund the government provides for them. similar to having a gambler not be allowed to spend food stamps because they arent his
11:33:27 AM+RenjinSee, in my country, we don't provide medicine
11:33:28 AM+RenjinIt's just our way
11:33:34 AM+LordGloomthey can spend their OWN money though
11:33:35 AM+RenjinWe like to share our True Medicine way with you Americans
11:33:48 AM+RenjinLordGloom: She exercised her choice!
11:33:56 AM+RenjinShe chose to go to that bank and withdraw 50k
11:34:29 AM+RenjinYou know each and every choice humans make is sacred and Above Analysis
11:34:40 AM+RenjinI'm just using the free market to see if humans like pills or my lies
11:34:45 AM+RenjinI scheme, you decide
11:35:02 AM+LordGloomben its a hypothetical
11:35:22 AM+LordGloomi am not sure it s hould be
11:35:45 AM+LordGloomactually it mmight not even be. it could be unconstitutional
11:35:52 AM+LordGloomyeah but they might be mistaken
11:36:02 AM+RenjinLordGloom: I hope this analogy has helped demonstrate the absurdity of your position
11:36:06 AM+RenjinIt probably didn't, though
11:36:07 AM+LordGloomcourts dont know for sure what is legal
11:36:10 AM+LordGloom they make mistakes
11:36:14 AM+RenjinYou have a religious belief in the wisdom of markets
11:36:18 AM+LordGloomright it probably didnt
11:36:37 AM+LordGloomben there is the 1st amendment
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11:36:59 AM+RenjinYou literally have no response to my analogical argument
11:37:05 AM+RenjinYet, I sense you're unmoved in your position
11:37:12 AM+RenjinThis is what it feels like when we're irrational, LordGloom
11:37:49 AM+RenjinLordGloom: Is there any methodology independent of markets that can be superior to markets in any situations?
11:38:05 AM+Renjin(It appears your answer is no)