Gligar Votes and Reasoning
a guest Dec 7th, 2018 393 Never
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- Gligar Voting:
- MickTheSpud: Voting to ban gligar on the basis that it's unhealthy for the tier. I think that since the introduction of Gligar and Piloswine, the tier has become more centralised around small number of Pokemon, and several of these Pokemon almost need to be used on any viable team. I think Gligar is probably the main example of this, almost consistently topping the usage charts throughout the tournament, and being the only Pokemon with a usage rate >50% in the cumulative stats. As some others have mentioned every team needs 2 or 3 Gligar checks, and it's an extremely versatile Pokemon which is one of the best in the tier regardless of whether it's used offensively or defensively/supporting. There are a few viable checks such as Frogadier (as a revenge killer, though Gligar can usually be easily switched out), Ice Punch Gurdurr (Gligar can chip away if it switches in), and Piloswine, but I do think that it is definitely unhealthy and potentially broken as it makes these Pokemon a requirement.
- Groot: I dont think there is much i can add on top of what others have said, ig only rebuttal against Friso’s “49% win rate isnt great” is that reason for that is most teams are forced to run 2 or 3 gligar checks/counters just to beat it, and seeing as most if not all lack reliable recovery then offensive gligar sets up and completely demolishes the “checks”, also we’d have to take each players skill level into account with gligar having that less than 50% win rate coz better players were able to utilise their checks better than someone who hadnt even played a game before. So taking everything into account with basically a different ev spread to it fit on every team, loads of support moves + recovery, and also offensive power with dual set up or fast sd which still outspeeds a ton of threats i think it is unhealthy for the meta and overcentralised in building due to the fact there isnt much reason to not use gligar, BAN
- BloodAce: Not gonna rehash what other people, mainly Simbo, have already said so I'll keep it brief.
- [Voting Ban]
- Cheryl: From what I've played of the meta, Gligar is a really, really powerful threat because of the variety of sweeping sets it can choose from. Anything from Eviolite SD + Roost to SD Z-move to Dual Dance with Agility can be used viably and it makes reliably checking Gligar really hard. Gligar especially thrives late-game because that's when most of it's checks (say something like Prinplup) are chipped down and are at range at dying to a +2 attack, making it that much deadlier. Evio Glig alone is pretty dumb as Gligar's bulk is really nice for a sweeper and having access to reliable recovery makes Gligar that much more, well, reliable! It's also one of the few sweepers that doesn't mind Gurdurr as it resists Mach Punch and can set up on it unless it carries Ice Punch. While I will admit that having defensive Gligar around would be nice as it gives us another Defogger and a nice check to stuff like Monferno, having to bare the burden of all of Gligar's stupid offensive sets that can sweep you just off of how many options it has for a sweeping set is just really unhealthy for the meta and I think it would be better off if we ban Gligar.
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- Gligar: (keep) unban
- To me gligar isn't broken or unhealthy even. It helps check the abundance of threats which have gotten lower lower in viability due to gligar. Pokemon like monferno, magmar, pawniard, grimer-a and electabuzz are all extremely hard to check and gligar helps to role compress a lot. To me it feels more like a landorus-t in OU, a incineroar in NU, a mienfoo in LC and an incineroar in vgc2019. They all have a huge usage being 41%, 38%, 75% and 84% respectively just like gligar having a 56% usage in last nfepl. All these prior pokemon aren't deemed broken and I think the same applies for gligar.
- | 1 | Gligar | 75 | 56.82% | 49.33% |
- A 49% winrate doesn’t prove to me that gligar is broken. Even if part of that percentage could be of teams that have a gligar vs gligar matchup, that's only (percentage by sans) of the gligar loses. To me that proves its actually not broken in practice.
- Moreover, I think there are quite a few checks/counters available. Wartortle, prinplup, piloswine, slowpoke and ice beam clefairy, since burning gligar is often already enough of a check to it. The double dance gligar is also checked by sashcounterbra. Servine, ice punch gurdurr and togetic check every gligar but flying stab gligar, wow misdreavus and dusclops check every but knock/taunt gligar (and arguably also knock gligar). It’s also revenge killed by multiple mons including frogadier, lo hp ice kadabra and ice shard pilo. I feel like the meta wasn't really developped to deal with gligar yet during nfepl and that, if given time, the meta will fix itself. Think nasty firium monferno and will-o-wisp taunt slack off monferno over sd moferno and rest wartortle/prinplup over haze or toxic, ice beam clefairy and the use of slowpoke, which i don't view as having a small niche since it still also checks monferno, magmar and even clefairy if it opts to run calm mind psyshock.
- In a nutshell, I feel like the meta should be more given more time to adapt to gligar as well as the fact it helps check the abundance of threats whilst still having quite some checks itself.
- Miyami: Gligar's main problem is that it's far too hard to check. SD + Roost sets have far too much in the way of power combined with longevity that just allows it to outlast some of its checks or at worst force a trade. Pokémon like Prinplup or Wartortle look good at first glance, but they lack recovery and are very prone to having their items knocked off. Ferrosseed fares a little better with Leech Seed, but it still has to trade itself to actually stop Gligar. Additionally, anything that is common and might be used to check Gligar suffers from having to be used to check other dangerous threats, such as Kadabra for Ferrosseed or Torracat for the waters. Gligar teams effectively try to make kingmaker scenarios in which you can't stop everything and eventually fall prey to either it or another breaker. Gligar's bulk is also well above average for a sweeper/breaker on the physical side, letting Roost variants still have defensive utility throughout a match. This lets Gligar do something very few other sweeper/breakers can, and means that it's never deadweight in a match even if your opponent brings checks. This doesn't sound that bad on its own, but Gligar's too effective at sweeping for the amount of utility it brings (which also lets it get in to set up on a lot of things, most notably non-ice punch Gurdurr). I'll be voting ban.
- Simbo: prepare yourself its a lot
- Gligar: Ban
- 1. Fits Broken policies.
- I think gligar easily fits into the broken tiering policy. The offensive sets like fast sd roost and double dance are far too good for the rest of the metagame, being able to break through defensive checks with ease while having both the speed and longevity to check pokemon, switch into multiple attacks and setup multiple times in the game if roost evio.
- Offensive Gligar sets have no 'real' long term checks or counters, barring gimmicky mons such as knock hp ice eelektrik and maybe bronzor against non-knock sets.
- More standard checks such as the bulky waters lack reliable recovery and only need minimal chip before they fall to +2 gligar. Gligar can wear its checks throughout the game or the team can utilise hazards, while keeping itself healthy so it can set up at anytime.
- +2 252 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Prinplup: 139-165 (41.8 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- Possible damage amounts: (139, 141, 142, 144, 145, 148, 150, 151, 153, 154, 156, 157, 159, 160, 162, 165)
- Most defensive checks also fail to revenge or do particularly significant damage back to gligar even with se stab attacks, unless carrying ice beam, but most of these mons already have massive 4mss.
- 0 SpA Prinplup Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 138-164 (49.4 - 58.7%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
- Possible damage amounts: (138, 140, 140, 144, 144, 146, 150, 150, 152, 152, 156, 156, 158, 158, 162, 164)
- 0 SpA Wartortle Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 116-138 (41.5 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- Possible damage amounts: (116, 116, 120, 120, 120, 122, 122, 126, 126, 128, 128, 132, 132, 134, 134, 138)
- 0 SpA Slowpoke Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 84-98 (30.1 - 35.1%) -- 14.3% chance to 3HKO
- Possible damage amounts: (84, 84, 84, 86, 86, 86, 90, 90, 90, 92, 92, 92, 96, 96, 96, 98)
- 0 SpA Clefairy Ice Beam vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gligar: 164-196 (58.7 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Possible damage amounts: (164, 168, 168, 172, 172, 176, 176, 180, 180, 184, 184, 188, 188, 192, 192, 196)
- Revenging gligar from a teambuilding perspective is also very difficult. Defensive checks/switchins do not do enough damage unless glig's already knocked. Pilo ice shard does 60 unless banded, and faster offensive threats cannot revenge any dual dance set. The only mon capable of revenging gligar consistently would be hp ice/counter sashbra, but one check capable of revenging is not enough to justify keeping glig in.
- Gligar may not completely dictate or force usage but 56 percent across the 100+ nfe games in the draft tour is a significant amount of usage.
- 2. Fits some unhealthy policies.
- This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good to great threats.
- I think this point in the unhealthy section also fits gligar's description. Even though gligar is undeniably broken and too good for the rest of the meta as an individual pokemon, nfe having far too many good to great threats also emphasises gligars brokenness even more. A good nfe team either forgoes any checks to pokemon in favour of offensively besting them (ho) or they attempt to check the multitude of big threats in nfe, such as gligar, gurdurr, pilo, kadabra, haunter, servine, cm clef, duosion, sliggoo, monferno etc. Defensive checks to gligar are stretched thin attempting to check multiple threats, making it very easily for offensive gligar sets to break through teams. Gligar deserves the hammer far more than any other pokemon on that list simply because it has far too much variation in the offensive sets, the ability to increase speed (something every other threat listed above lacks) and the bulk and longevity to set up on a good chunk of the meta while negating chip with roost. Gligar is not affected by spikes and tspikes and also can't get toxiced, limiting killing options.(edited)
- Overall, it's the biggest teambuilding constraint in the meta, since counterplay to it varies heavily depending on what offensive set it is running. Defensive checks can be weakened easily by chip, hazards, other pokemon (piloglig is murder vs teams with clef and bulky water as check) or the fact that most defensive checks can't ohko it back even if they eat one hit. It should 100 percent be banned
- vooper: BAN, needs reasoning
- Total Votes: 8 Ban, 1 No Ban
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