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22:39	Scrappy	Octavian, how do you reconcile "do not resist" with Romans 13:4?
22:39	Scrappy	!kjv Romans 13:4
22:39	BibleBot	Rom13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (KJV)
22:39	barabbas`	LeFlash We all fall short of the mark, willingly or not. Those who fall short have Jesus in their life and can recover. The onse who don't have Jesus can't recover.
22:39	Octavian	Scrappy: A. are you a ruler?
22:40	Sara_Ks	Octavian No, its an accurate interpretation if you read the bible and look at all verses instead of harping on a cherry picked verse which is misused to try to make a point
22:40	Octavian	niv Rom 13:4
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22:40	Octavian	cancelbot plz
22:40	Scrappy	Octavian, yes.
22:40	Octavian	For the one in authority is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God's servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
22:40	Octavian	Scrappy: Oh? And what are you the 'ruler' of
22:40	LeFlash	um, so basically there's absolutely no difference whatsoever between a believer and a non-believer except their belief in Jesus, and you only get belief in Jesus if God gives it to you, and without it you burn. Is this correct?
22:41	CancelBot	niv rom 13:4 For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
22:42	Sara_Ks	Octavian Look at Luke 21:14-15 This also shows Jesus did not intend us to not confront evil but would give us the words to say
22:42	Sara_Ks	!nivLuke 21:14-15
22:42	Sara_Ks	!niv Luke 21:14-15
22:42	BibleBot	Luke21:14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves.
22:42	BibleBot	Luke21:15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. (NIV)
22:42	barabbas`	LeFlash; Sorta but not exactly. We all are born with the ability and free will to chose God. Our belief in Jesus/God is by faith. Faith comes from hearing the word and the word is Jesus.
22:42	Sara_Ks	Octavian Note that verse and the others I posted, it shows your implication does not work
22:42	Octavian	What I would give to understand why christians are unable or unwilling to follow such a direct statement from Jesus.
22:42		Octavian shrugs.
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22:43	LeFlash	There appears to be a bit of a disconnect here
22:43	barabbas`	LeFlash In 2nd peter it says that God is patiently waiting for ALL to come to him.
22:43	Octavian	mat 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person
22:43	LeFlash	is faith a gift given by God, or is faith something we choose to have?
22:43	Sara_Ks	Octavian What I would give to understand why some people cannot put all the verses together to come to a conclusion but have to cherry pick and ignore other verses
22:44	barabbas`	LeFlash FAith is something we chose to have. Faith is the evidence of things unseen.
22:44	Octavian	Sara_Ks: Are you expecting me to apologize for not performing mental gymnastics in order to reconcile contradictory statements in the bible?
22:44	Sara_Ks	Octavian Its not good reading to ignore all the verses, they give the correct meaning.
22:44	LeFlash	barabbas`, then is the bible wrong when it states that faith is something that is given by God?
22:44	Octavian	Because I will not be doing that any time soon.
22:44	barabbas`	LeFlash No
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22:45	LeFlash	barabbas`, then which is it? Is faith something that God gives us, or is faith something we choose to have?
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22:45	barabbas`	LeFlash faith is given to everyone. All are created with the ability to allow their faith to be the evidence of the things they cannot see.
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22:45	NormalSubmarine	<+Octavian> mat 5:39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person... Obama still giving handsome donation to pakistan
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22:45	Octavian	I have no need to pretend that Matthew 5:39 is reconcilable with other bible passages.
22:45	barabbas`	LeFlash It is given by God and opened by us.
22:45	LeFlash	barabbas`, but not everyone has faith. That is obvious. Look at all the non-Christians in the world.
22:45	Octavian	Therefore I don't search for bible verses that contradict it and then attempt to assign an alternative meaning to Matthew 5:39
22:46	LeFlash	barabbas`, do you have any kind of biblical support for your statements?
22:46	barabbas`	LeFlash Everyone has the same ability. Everyone can have faith if they chose to.
22:46	Sara_Ks	Octavian I don't expect you to apologise for anything. It wouldnt be a bad idea to use all the relevant verses though. Why do you think its good reading to only read one verse, which can interpreted in several ways, and ignore the relevant verses around it?
22:46	Scrappy	Octavian, one must consider every verse within the context of the passage, the book, and the Bible itself.
22:46	orangegreen	ezekiel.pdfView next to chat
22:46	orangegreen	jeremiah.pdfView next to chat
22:46	orangegreen	zechariah.pdfView next to chat
22:46	barabbas`	LeFlash: Yeah, it begins with Matthew and ends with revelation. The whole NT is about faith and how we use it or not.
22:47	Octavian	I am able to read Matthew 5:39 and note that Jesus is recorded as saying "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person" and then note that almost every christian that I know of who have encountered 'evil person(s)" have tried to resist them.
22:47	LeFlash	barabbas`, so no specific quotes to support your point then?
22:48	barabbas`	LeFlash: Look at it this way. I go to a lecture at a University by a professon on X. Now when I leave that lecture, I can accpet that X is true, as the professor says or I can chose to not accept it. Eitehr way the only evidence I have is the faith or lack of faith I have in this professor.
22:48	Octavian	Does Jesus say, "Do not resist an evil person, Except if _____" ?
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22:48	Octavian	No.
22:48	LeFlash	!kjv eph 1 4 6
22:48	BibleBot	Eph1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
22:48	BibleBot	Eph1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
22:48	BibleBot	Eph1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. (KJV)
22:48	Octavian	Jesus says "But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person"
22:48	LeFlash	barabbas`, so then that's a "no, I don't have scriptural backing for my statements". Thanks.
22:49	LeFlash	because what I just quoted says that God chose the faithful before the foundation of the world.
22:49	barabbas`	LeFlash: If you think I am going to hopscotch all over the Bible supply verses to support it, then nope, no such thing coming from me.
22:49	LeFlash	barabbas`, great! Then I hope you won't take it personally if I don't debate with you.
22:50	barabbas`	LeFlash Like Sara_Ks  has pointed out, you just took a verse OUT OF CONTEXT to support your unsupportable by all of scripture contention.
22:50	Scrappy	Octavian, as a Christian, when I encounter an evil person I first attempt to avoid them by removing myself.  When that isn't an option, I try to deescalate the situation by talking to them.  When that fails, I become assertive in an attempt to back them down.  When that fails, I take them down.  So, yeah, I turn the other cheek over and over and over, until it's no longer an option.
22:50	Octavian	barabbas`: assertions without support are dismissed without support.
22:50	LeFlash	Actually, I really didn't. But thanks for your input.
22:50	barabbas`	LeFlash I don't take it personally at all. It is your soul at stake, not mine.
22:50	Octavian	Scrappy: Does Jesus say that you can start resisting an evil person once you feel like it?
22:50	LeFlash	when it comes to my soul, I'll take God's word over yours any time
22:50		Octavian doesn't recall Jesus mentioning anything of the sort.
22:51	barabbas`	LeFlash All that is required of me is to spread the word. It is from hearing that word that faith is developed. What you do with what you hear is up to you, that is free will.
22:51	Scrappy	Octavian, yes, He did.  May I again point you to Romans 13:4?
22:51	Scrappy	!kjv Romans 13:4
22:51	BibleBot	Rom13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. (KJV)
22:51	Octavian	@Scrappy Are you a ruler?
22:51	Scrappy	Octavian, yes.
22:51	Octavian	@Scrappy Of what
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22:51	LeFlash	it's kind of hard for you to spread the word when you refuse to read it
22:51	Sara_Ks	Octavian That is not a valid point. Its not simply because you are cherry picking a verse and misusing it. For example. Richard Dawkins claims to be a cultural Christian. Can I now say he claims to be Christian? Or should I read more and understand what he meant, that he likes to sing carols and give gifts and many other traditions but not that he beleives in God. See the point here?
22:51	Sara_Ks	You cannot simply throw verses around.
22:51	Scrappy	Octavian, I'm not going to disclose that here.
22:51	Sara_Ks	LeFlash Tell that to Octavian
22:52	barabbas`	!niv Rom 10:17
22:52	BibleBot	Rom10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. (NIV)
22:52	LeFlash	Sara_Ks, why?
22:52	Octavian	You are not a ruler of anything.
22:52	barabbas`	LeFlash There is your verse, it says it all. It doesn't qualify or discriminate about WHO faith comes to.
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22:52	Scrappy	Octavian, Romans 13 addresses civil authorities, which are more broad in definition that your limited view of "ruler"
22:52	Octavian	Scrappy: Also, Jesus is not the one speaking in Romans chapter 13.
22:53	Scrappy	!kjv 2Timothy 3:16
22:53	BibleBot	2Tim3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (KJV)
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22:53	LeFlash	barabbas`, right, it doesn't really address the question at all, and is therefore not relevant to the current discussion.
22:53	Octavian	Scrappy: 22:51	Scrappy	Octavian, yes, He did.  May I again point you to Romans 13:4?
22:53	Octavian	Scrappy: lying about scripture seems like a serious thing for a christian to do
22:53	Scrappy	Octavian, all scripture is inspired by God.
22:53	Octavian	And we both know that the bible does not present JESUS as the speaker in 13:4.
22:53	Scrappy	I'll thank you to stop calling me names.
22:53	barabbas`	LeFlash:If you want to understand it deeper, begin at romans 10:14
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22:54	Octavian	Paul is supposedly the one who wrote the letter to the romans.
22:54	Octavian	is Paul Jesus?
22:54	Scrappy	Octavian, all scripture is God's inspired word.
22:54	orangegreen	isaiah.pdfView next to chat
22:54	orangegreen	daniel.pdfView next to chat
22:54	LeFlash	barabbas`, please describe what you mean by a deeper understanding. I am not sure how to take that from someone who refuses to actually offer a relevant quote.
22:54	Octavian	Scrappy: scripture being inspired is not the same as Jesus being the speaker in Romans 13:4, and again we both know this.
22:54	barabbas`	LeFlash; Look, you badgered me for a verse. The verse I gave you speaks DIRECTLY to the topic YOU introduced. Now you can accept the fact that I gave you exactly what you asked for, You can dismiss it all you like, That is expected when you lose  your argument. What you should keep in mind it is your soul that you are losing. God Bless
22:55	Scrappy	Octavian, Jesus uses all of His word to speak to us, not just that which He personally spoke.
22:55	Octavian	A useful and self serving claim in this argument, for you.
22:55	LeFlash	barabbas`, I didn't badger you for anything. You are now being nasty and rude. I am placing you on ignore.
22:55	Scrappy	Octavian, it's not merely a claim.  It's scripture.  2 Timothy 3:16
22:55	Octavian	niv 2ti 3:16
22:55	CancelBot	niv 2ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
22:56	Octavian	Scipture being god-breathed and useful for teaching, etcetera is not the same as Jesus saying X when in fact some other person wrote or said X.
22:56	Scrappy	Octavian, you've argued your point, been refuted, called me a liar, and we're still right where we started.
22:56	Scrappy	So I'm moving on.
22:57	Octavian	I accept your concession.
22:57	Scrappy	By the way, this is me as a Christian turning the other cheek.
22:57	Scrappy	You're welcome.
22:57	barabbas`	Octavian What some other person wrote was what Jesus inspired them to write, or it was the words of Jesus.
22:57	Didache	there was no concession... Octavian you never debate properly .. all you ever do is stir
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22:58	Octavian	If you wish to disregard language in order to suit your argument, then yes I suppose you can freely argue that "Jesus said X" where X is any scripture, if you want to twist 2 Timothy 3:16 in such a way
22:59	barabbas`	Octavian Thats what inspiration means. It means that the one who is being spoken about is the one who inspired the author to write what they did. Theh words are, in fact, exactly what Jesus wanted them to be.
22:59	Didache	Octavian read my post above and move on
22:59	Octavian	barabbas`: Are you willing to continue this conversation with me?
22:59	Octavian	Or, do I have your permission to continue this? I am confused.
22:59	Didache	Octavian read my post above and move on LAST WARNING
22:59	barabbas`	Octavian No reason, your contention has been refuted successfully by three people. Tme to move on
22:59	Octavian	Ok.
23:00	LeFlash	I would like to state for the record that what was just done to Octavian was nothing more than cyber-bullying. If you disagree with him that's one thing, but you're just using intimidation and threats to force him to concede a point. That's NOT debate.
23:01		+++ Didache has taken voice from LeFlash
23:01	Octavian	Was God's decision to drown all humans, with the exception of Noah + Noah's sons + their spouses, morally praiseworthy?
23:02	barabbas`	LeFlash: He made his point. It was refuted by three others. He didn't offer anything else. That is how debate works You make an argument, it is refuted. if you have nothing new to offer, your argument was successfully refuted and the debate is over.
23:03	Octavian	Am I allowed to object to the idea that I was refuted?
23:03	Octavian	If not, sorry for asking.
23:04	Octavian	Also, I would like to state that I am willing but not allowed to offer 'anything else'
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23:11	bnyfoofoo	hi all
23:11	Octavian	bnyfoofoo: hey there
23:12	bnyfoofoo	Octavian good to see you
23:13	Scrappy	bnyfoofoo, you and I need to talk.
23:13	Scrappy	I do NOT want to see you scooping up the field mice, you dig?
23:13	Scrappy	And I certainly don't want to see you bopping their little mousey heads, got it?
23:13	Scrappy
23:13		bnyfoofoo bops you instead
23:13	bnyfoofoo	any port in a storm
23:14	Scrappy	lol
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23:19	orangegreen	hi kissa =)
23:20	kissa	Grocery outlet had all wines 20% today... till 10th I think .... and other miracle
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23:20	kissa	hiya orangegreen
23:20	Scrappy	kissa, the one down by Southcenter?
23:20	kissa	Scrappy:  the one in Burien !!
23:21	Scrappy	Ohhhhhh, on 152nd?
23:21	Scrappy	I was thinking of Cash & Carry.
23:21	kissa	riiight ... I bought dozen...   ahem ..for cooking
23:21		Scrappy is getting tired.
23:22	Scrappy	kissa, we travel the same area so often, we should really have coffee some day.
23:22	Didache	kissa be careful.. you will be under the affluence of incahol
23:22	kissa	Didache:  lol ... yeaaa, thanks for warning ...
23:23	kissa	Didache:  I'm looking for australian wines...  we have 'world market' seen Vegemite there...  prolly gonna try some one of these days
23:25	Didache	kissa vegemite ferments well
23:25	kissa	okey then, back to religion ... lots of 'godly men' campaigning in GOP side ...  Huckabee and Trump
23:25	barabbas`	kissa; Where do you live? Is it the south part of seattle?
23:26	kissa	barabbas`:   right cross from Sea Tac....  from my windows I can see planes taxing on runway ....  my hobby
23:27	calloption	Would it be christlike to kick out 11 million illegal immigrants
23:27	barabbas`	kissa; Thats what I thought. My nephew lives in Georgetown, right off the north end of Boeing field. He works for PC markets. Ever shopped there?
23:27	kissa	Burien:  Boeing blue collar workers baradise...they say
23:28	kissa	barabbas`:   Georgetown is ten miles from me....   but it's growing, getting hip and all
23:28	Scrappy	kissa, are you off Des Moines Memorial or up 160th?
23:28	barabbas`	kissa Yeah, its quite an eclectic place. Lots of old and young hippies. He is in his thirties, drives an old, but very nice, VW van.
23:29	kissa	Scrappy:  you gonna stalk me now  lol ....    I'm in the hill side west of Sea Tac ....
23:30	Didache	calloption supply and demand and what the economy of a country can support
23:30	Scrappy	I love driving down 160th and watching the runway from there.  Such a great view.
23:32	kissa	Scrappy:  from some houses,  we have no distriction, how tall you can let your trees grow,  like in some neighborhood.... so it's hit and miss...  my neighbor down from hill, had his trees cut down, I'm forever thankful
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23:33	kissa	anyhow... like  SB would say,  it's not about me.....  lol ...
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23:34	kissa	Didache:  did you moved into your new home now
23:38	Didache	kissa two weeks ago
23:38	kissa	Didache:   you don't need to dust for few month  ....  congrats!!
23:39	Didache	kissa got a truck to take away the cartons.. 6 million of them
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23:41	kissa	Didache:   fun time for your family
23:42	Didache	kissa it has been a tryingn time
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23:42	kissa	Didache:  for sure,  but nice clean new home for Christmas....
23:43	Didache	yes, still finding stuff
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23:51	orangegreen	hi S|J_McPherson =)
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23:59	LeFlash	Octavian, I hope things are going better for you now. I apologize for the treatment you received earlier.
00:00	Octavian	LeFlash: Kind of you to say, but probably not the most welcome of topics.
00:00	Octavian
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00:00	barabbas`	LeFlash: If you have a problem with the way the channel is moderated take it to #christianops.
00:01	LeFlash	It is what it is Octavian.
00:02		--- Didache has banned *!*@75.76.205.117
00:02		*** LeFlash was kicked by Didache (Didache)


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Kjv Psalms 30:12 To the end that my glory may sing praise to thee, and not be silent. O LORD my God, I will give thanks unto thee for ever.
Topic set by Raven`[email protected] on Wed Feb 19 2014 15:09:14 GMT-0600 (Central Standard Time)
00:01	Octavian	Yeah I have a problem with using threats of devoice/ban in order to win arguments
00:01	Octavian	It's pretty stifling to the possibility of actual debates taking place
00:03	barabbas`	Octavian; There was no threat, you were warned, once you are warned its time to move on. You chose not to then things escalate. If you don't like it, go somewhere else. You made your point it was refuted, you didn't bring anything new to the argument, it is over at that point. To belabor the same point is fruitless.
00:03	Octavian	um
00:03	Octavian	ok so now you want to pussyfoot around semantics?
00:03	Octavian	You made it clear that you were DECLARING yourself the victor of the arg ument, DECLARING that I had been 'refuted'
00:03	Didache	Octavian you are in #CD under sufference... just remember that
00:04	Octavian	and that I would be devoiced or banned if I expressed dissent.
00:04	Didache	Octavian you have now made your point...
00:04	Octavian	Didache: And as for you.
00:04	Didache	so the discussion is ended
00:04	Octavian	the other day, you had a disagreement with me about Moses
00:04	barabbas`	Octavian: Three different people refuted your argument. Not much else to say. No one had to declare a winner, it was obvious to everyone but you. Now i am moving on. God Bless
00:04	Scrappy	Didn't you declare that I'd conceded when in fact I'd just moved on?  You're blaming them for what you did yourself.
00:04	Octavian	I think he's fictional, you think he's a historical fact.
00:04		--- Didache has banned *!*@216.16.25.104
00:04		*** Octavian was kicked by Didache (Didache)
00:04		!!! You have been kicked from #ChristianOps



PM with Barabbas`
23:09	barabbas`	You had an opportunity to offer something new. You didn't offer anything, you chose to start going in circles and accusing others. At this point you have lost your argument, your point was successfully refuted and there is no where to go. Face it, once a point is refuted and nothing new offered in its defense, it is over. Not gonna let debates go in circles anymore.
23:10	Octavian	Excuse you?
23:10	Octavian	Don't lie about me.
23:10	Octavian	I was continually addressing my opponent and did not go in circles.
23:11	Octavian	I was also forbidden from continuing the argument.
23:11	Octavian	Now if you want to abuse your op authority, go right ahead.
23:11	Octavian	But I will not sit idly by while someone accuses me of not not offering 'anything new' when in fact they are forcing me to not do so, under threat of ban.
00:05	Octavian	I have been banned from the legitimate arena to discuss my issues with the ops, what recourse do you recommend?
00:07	barabbas`	You werent discussion the reason for your ban, you were trying to reintroduce the topic of the debate you lost. #COPS isn't the place for that. I told you why you got kicked. You don't like it, too bad. Now don't be offended if I ignore you, but I am going to ingore you. God Bless
00:07	Octavian	Tyrants will do as tyrants are wont to do, I suppose.
00:08	Octavian	00:00	barabbas`	LeFlash: If you have a problem with the way the channel is moderated take it to #christianops.
00:08	Octavian	I had a problem, and I took it to there.
00:08	Octavian	Then you clowns banned me.



PM with Didache
00:05	Didache	Ops is not a debate channel
00:05	Octavian	I have been banned from the legitimate arena to discuss my issues with the ops, what recourse do you recommend?
00:05	Didache	Ops is not a debate channel
00:05	Octavian	No recommendation, then.
00:06	Octavian	Good evening.
00:06	Octavian	It is too a debate, btw. I have witnessed many debates about operator policy in there.
00:06	Octavian	including numerous ones with the channel founder, Sara_Ks.