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A brief oral history of L20 Crystal Battle Tower

Nov 11th, 2018
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  1. === Predecessors (L10/L50 Routes) ===
  2.  
  3. 2002-2004(?)
  4. - Ed. Note: Adolescent entrpntr spends way too much time battling/dying to Battle Tower
  5.  
  6. Apr 2014
  7. - werster routes L10 Battle Tower (Skarmory, Jolteon, Onix)
  8.  
  9. Apr/Jun/Dec 2014
  10. - werster (and crafted) do L10 runs, best time is werster's 4:06:28
  11.  
  12. Aug/Sep 2015
  13. - entrpntr's Trainer AI research
  14.  
  15. 28 Nov 2015
  16. - crafted does another L10 Battle Tower run (unfinished)
  17. - Ed. Note: entrpntr watches crafted's run with great anticipation
  18. - Ed. Note: entrpntr gets mad at the L10 route involving egg creation/hatching
  19. - Ed. Note: entrpntr gets excited at potential for applying Trainer AI research
  20.  
  21. Nov/Dec 2015
  22. - entrpntr routes L50 Battle Tower (Suicune, Snorlax, Typhlosion)
  23. - entrpntr does L50 practice run, time is 4:32:44 with lots of deaths
  24. - Ed. Note: entrpntr develops a burning hatred of the Cyndaquil evolutionary line
  25.  
  26. Apr 2016
  27. - Underscore makes yolo L10 route (Miltank, Onix, Tangela/Wobbuffet), no finished runs
  28.  
  29. Apr 2017
  30. - Entei + [Multiple] Master Ball manip turns L50 into Suicune/Snorlax/Entei
  31.  
  32. Aug 2017
  33. - Underscore researches L50 route, and routes Raikou as a backup for Entei
  34. - Underscore does L50 runs, best time is 3:43:42 with Raikou (Ed. Note: and female Snorlax wtf)
  35. - Ed. Note: Raikou with HP Fire is probably the best L50 route with manip
  36.  
  37.  
  38.  
  39. === L20 Route Origins ===
  40.  
  41. Wobbuffet's potential spurs hope for a 7 badge L20 route
  42.  
  43. Dec 2015 - Oct 2016 (recurring dreams of 7 badge Battle Tower routes)
  44. - gifvex: just struck me as odd you can just walk in battle tower near olivine but L10 route does the whole elite four
  45. - entrpntr: yeah, Crystal Battle Tower is legit hard
  46. - entrpntr: and AI not abuseable for the most part
  47. - entrpntr: maybe there is an idea that allows you to win like 50% of fights
  48. - entrpntr: basically Skarmory just fucks up L10 by stalling
  49. - entrpntr: and Suicune + Snorlax do the same for L50
  50. - entrpntr: but I haven't taken a solid look at L20, L30, L40 metagame
  51. - entrpntr: finding a way to exploit the pool of pokes is going to be the best way to find something
  52. - entrpntr: if you can find a way to win 50% of fights without going to Kanto, that would surprise me
  53. - entrpntr: at the very least, you'll probably need to get 7 badges
  54. ~~~~~
  55. - entrpntr: I mean, my ultimate goal is to route RTA to be 7 badges
  56. ~~~~~
  57. - entrpntr: after 7th badge, you are cockblocked by Radio Tower
  58. - entrpntr: which is 25 minutes and does nothing useful
  59. - entrpntr: so idea is to beat Battle Tower with no more than 7 badges
  60. - entrpntr: all runs to date have done E4 and gone into Kanto
  61.  
  62. 27-28 Aug 2016 (discovery of Underscore's yolo routes + Wobbuffet; shortly after general RNG manip discovery)
  63. - entrpntr: L20 and L30 Battle Tower might be able to use some truly off-the-wall pokes with manips
  64. ~~~~~
  65. - entrpntr: Underscore may also have been onto something with Miltank + Wobbuffet
  66. - entrpntr: except I don't think he used Milk Drink on Miltank for whatever reason
  67. - entrpntr: which would seem to make it a godly choice for L20
  68. - Ed. Note: battle_tower_l20_team.rtf created on 28 Aug 2016
  69.  
  70. 6 Sep 2016 (a stirring Wobbuffet testimony is delivered)
  71. - entrpntr: Looking more into Miltank for Battle Tower? With manip I may want to look into some possibilities again at some point
  72. - entrpntr: 7 badge Battle Tower being the ideal situation
  73. - entrpntr: Several options to consider for L20 and L30 if you get (relatively) fast encounters with good DVs
  74. - UnderscorePoY: i think Miltank can be viable in Battle Tower
  75. - UnderscorePoY: And Wobbuffet can do amazing stuff (like wiping a whole team himself)
  76. - entrpntr: how consistently were you winning battles when you tried
  77. - UnderscorePoY: Every battle i lost is because the 1st poke countered Wobbuffet
  78. - UnderscorePoY: You have nothing to deal with Dark Types
  79. - entrpntr: oh you were doing L10
  80.  
  81. 10-11 Oct 2016 (first deep dive into L20 options)
  82. - entrpntr: you made me look into Crystal Battle Tower again
  83. - entrpntr: I'm looking at L20 options
  84. - entrpntr: it feels like Wobbuffet is necessary
  85. - entrpntr: assuming Underscore's testimonial holds up
  86. - entrpntr: but idk, there are several options, and a lot of things that you need to cover
  87. - entrpntr: but I'm over the L50 route
  88. - entrpntr: I'm dead set on 7 badges
  89. - entrpntr: you can fight Battle Tower as soon as you get there, it's just impossible
  90. - entrpntr: but from what I saw of Underscore's VODs, he was actually winning fights
  91. - entrpntr: and he said Wobbuffet can take out entire teams
  92. ~~~~~
  93. - entrpntr:
  94. > Wobbuffet @ Gold Berry - Counter, Mirror Coat, Destiny Bond, Safeguard
  95. > Crobat @ Mint Berry - Confuse Ray/Swagger, Fly, Rest, Sludge Bomb/Endure
  96. > Exeggutor @ Quick Claw - Hypnosis, Nightmare, Leech Seed, Attract/Endure/Swagger
  97. - entrpntr: what are the chances this ridiculous team can do anything
  98. ; (Ed. Note: Crobat can't learn Sludge Bomb LOL WTF)
  99. - entrpntr: L20 has lots of decent options, but it seems impossible to make a team of 3 that works
  100. - entrpntr: a few pokes definitely cause trouble for the team, but that seems unavoidable
  101. - entrpntr: just try to have an out in every battle
  102. - entrpntr: if Miltank could learn Thief, that would be beautiful
  103. - entrpntr: there were a few annoying cases of some Pokemon not getting some moves
  104. - entrpntr: I don't think there is a concept that will allow the other 2 pokes to win
  105. - entrpntr: so this is heavily dependent on Wobbuffet taking down 2 pokes
  106. - entrpntr: my guess is Exeggutor is not tanky enough to pull this shit off
  107. - entrpntr: but he handles Starmie & Alakazam
  108. - entrpntr: Crobat handles Umbreon & Heracross
  109. - entrpntr: and hopefully they can cheese enough %
  110. - entrpntr: Lapras is another alternative for Sing/Nightmare stuff
  111. - entrpntr: have to do dumb stuff like that if you want to deal damage to things
  112. - entrpntr: the most annoying thing is for L20 Slowbro, Curse is just barely overwritten
  113. - entrpntr: so the only thing that can actually raise its stats is Sunflora
  114. - entrpntr: Growth, Mega Drain, Rest, Attract
  115. - entrpntr: how cool would that be for a moveset
  116. - entrpntr: but I doubt it can get that kind of setup off anyway
  117. - entrpntr: Exeggutor/Lapras/Wigglytuff/Noctowl/Butterfree are the Sleep Move + Nightmare options
  118. - entrpntr: Crobat not getting Mud-Slap is another annoying thing
  119. ~~~~~
  120. - entrpntr: assuming Toto route completes 7 badges by 1:35, there is a ton of time available
  121. - entrpntr: I'm trying very minimal things right now
  122. - entrpntr: things that won't take 30 extra minutes
  123. - entrpntr: I don't mind getting Good Rod and fishing for example
  124. - entrpntr: if breeding enters the equation then it probably makes more sense to look at L10
  125. - entrpntr: If I use Crobat, I'll have to get Friend Balls
  126. - entrpntr: stuff like that is fine
  127. - entrpntr: anyway, nothing promising enough to follow thru anytime soon
  128.  
  129.  
  130.  
  131. === Crobat Purgatory ===
  132.  
  133. Bygone era of thinking Crobat was necessary for Heracross/Umbreon (Oct 2016 - May 2018)
  134.  
  135. 26 Dec 2016 (lamentations, part 1)
  136. - entrpntr: I don't have any expectation of consistency or fun with the manip
  137. - entrpntr: and my CBT routing didn't really go well
  138. - entrpntr: basically Wobbuffet + Crobat at L20 is a good combo
  139. - entrpntr: but I don't see a way to ever win more than like 60%
  140. - entrpntr: Wobbuffet owns
  141. - entrpntr: but no other pokemon are strong enough
  142. - entrpntr: Miltank gets owned
  143.  
  144. 9 May 2017 (lamentations, part 2)
  145. - entrpntr: one day the category will be cheesed by L20 strats with Wobbuffet + Crobat + ??? to just try to luckbox way through Battle Tower with only 7 badges obtained
  146. - entrpntr: but that's no fun
  147.  
  148. 15-16 Aug 2017 (motivation returns after Underscore's completed L50 run)
  149. - entrpntr: for those who missed it, thanks to Underscore, L50 Battle Tower strats finally dethroned L10 strats yesterday
  150. - entrpntr: by a good ~23 minutes
  151. - entrpntr: my prediction is that in 2020, there will be manip, and route will be L20 strats w/7 badges (Wobbuffet + Crobat + Exeggutor(?)) where you're only like 75% to win each fight
  152. - UnderscorePoY: Wobbuffet + Miltank + Onix plz
  153. ~~~~~
  154. - entrpntr: now I can ignore the L50 Battle Tower route at least
  155. - entrpntr: my goal was going to be sub-3:40 but that time proves the point
  156. - entrpntr: RNG Manip is going to be required for L20 tho
  157. - entrpntr: + dumb route that probably needs great luck in tower anyway
  158. - entrpntr: so no guarantee I pursue it
  159. - entrpntr: but at least one thing is off my plate
  160. ~~~~~
  161. - entrpntr: and of course all I want to think about right now is L20 Battle Tower
  162. - entrpntr: originally I was just thinking about maybe extending the route a little bit further
  163. - entrpntr: get Sleep Talk, and maybe there is some good Rest/Sleep Talk poke
  164. - entrpntr: I came up with 5 options
  165. - entrpntr: at least on paper I don't like any of them
  166. - entrpntr: circled back to Exeggutor
  167. - entrpntr: but most of it will have to be tested in practice
  168. - entrpntr: and it will rely on DV manip
  169. - entrpntr: there were 4 besides Exeggutor
  170. - entrpntr: only one of them is really noteworthy I guess
  171. - entrpntr: I have mentioned Sunflora before
  172. - entrpntr: Growth/Mega Drain/Rest/Sleep Talk
  173. - entrpntr: seemed like a fun option
  174. - entrpntr: but I guess it probably dies
  175. - entrpntr: would be better if Growth was Calm Mind like in Gen 1
  176. - entrpntr: Lapras with Surf/Body Slam/Rest/Sleep Talk or something like that
  177. - entrpntr: I think it is probably second best option after Exeggutor
  178. - entrpntr: Shuckle was really not a Sleep Talk option
  179. - entrpntr: just a "can do a lot of shit" option
  180. - entrpntr: and survive for a long time
  181. - entrpntr: and then fucking Pinsir
  182. - entrpntr: which I really wanted to work, but seems lacking after looking over more
  183. - entrpntr: and I'm guessing cannot survive well enough
  184. - entrpntr: but I need to test how some things work
  185. - entrpntr: Pinsir getting L19 Seismic Toss with Rest/Sleep Talk
  186. - entrpntr: I thought might mean it would be able to kill some shit
  187. - entrpntr: I forget how Leech Seed and Encore work for switchouts and deaths
  188. - entrpntr: but Exeggutor with something like Thief/Leech Seed/Rest
  189. - entrpntr: should be able to handle a lot of things I think
  190. - entrpntr: and at the very least do something useful
  191. - entrpntr: which is not easy to do
  192. - entrpntr: if it had 5 moves it would probably be easier
  193. - entrpntr: and with Thief it can keep staying alive
  194. - entrpntr: Gold Berry/Berry Juice/Leftovers
  195. - entrpntr: if it could do Swagger + Reflect on top of that moveset
  196. - entrpntr: + Sludge Bomb
  197. - entrpntr: but Leech Seed really did a surprising amount of damage when I tried it last time
  198. - entrpntr: and when Wobbuffet is virtually guaranteed to take something down
  199. - entrpntr: and often takes 2 things down
  200. - entrpntr: Pinsir has Bind, Lapras has Whirlpool, Shuckle has Wrap, Sludge Bomb is the only way to get PSN
  201. - entrpntr: just trying to add up chip damage
  202. - entrpntr: but need to take a strong look at situations
  203. - entrpntr: Crobat I think handles the least things
  204. - entrpntr: handles Heracross and Umbreon tho
  205. - entrpntr: I am guessing Crobat is Fly/Endure/Confuse Ray
  206. - entrpntr: Exeggutor can beat Starmie/Alakazam/Exeggutor
  207. - entrpntr: and it should be able to beat Blissey
  208. - entrpntr: Softboiled is annoying, but PP does tick down
  209. - entrpntr: it is something you should be able to actually safely switch in on a number of things
  210. - entrpntr: but it means Wobbuffet needs to take out all Ice move users
  211. - entrpntr: Lapras/Tauros/Azumarill/Wigglytuff(1)/Nidoking
  212. - entrpntr: not worried about Hitmonchan's Ice Punch
  213. - entrpntr: anyway, it is not going to be like L50
  214. - entrpntr: there are going to be teams that you draw that likely mean death
  215. - entrpntr: and point of the third poke is to just maximize chances
  216. ~~~~~
  217. - entrpntr: Yanma has Double Team and Sonicboom I think
  218. - entrpntr: which was a fun RestTalk candidate for about 5 seconds
  219. - entrpntr: 65/45/45 defenses = dead
  220. - entrpntr: Ariados gets Night Shade
  221. - entrpntr: Pinsir gets Seismic Toss
  222. - entrpntr: Exeggutor I think would get exp from Exp Share
  223. - entrpntr: but yeah I don't think there is a great RestTalk candidate
  224. ~~~~~
  225. - entrpntr: loL guess Weezing is a possibility with manip
  226. - entrpntr: Selfdestruct
  227. - entrpntr: not sure if useful
  228. - entrpntr: 1% slot
  229. - entrpntr: guess when I looked before I only cared if 5%
  230. ~~~~~
  231. - entrpntr: I don't really want to do Radio Tower
  232. - entrpntr: but in interim I am willing to consider anything that is only 40ish minutes total out of the way after 7 badges
  233. - entrpntr: aim for sub-3
  234. - entrpntr: if I can just make it 75% or so winrate per fight, it is worth grinding
  235.  
  236. 2 Apr 18 (lamentations, part 3)
  237. - entrpntr: I was going to make a paste about improvements to existing runs
  238. - entrpntr: whenever I run out of desire to continue speedrunning
  239. - entrpntr: like I doubt I'll get to Crystal Battle Tower L20
  240.  
  241.  
  242.  
  243. === Enlightenment ===
  244.  
  245. Inspiration for a 4 badge route (Wobbuffet + Miltank + ?) comes unexpectedly, from a profoundly silly category
  246.  
  247. 26 Apr 2018 - 12 May 2018
  248. - Crystal NSC is born (thanks to luckytyphlosion); requires winning 1 fight in Battle Tower
  249. - First run completed in 2:26:55 by entrpntr (L20 Wobbuffet/Lapras/Sudowoodo)
  250.  
  251. 5 May 2018
  252. - entrpntr: I've run into more exploitable AI quirks from crysnsc testing
  253. - entrpntr: gives some hope for actual L20 CBT
  254. - entrpntr: 4 badge L20 team for crysnsc has like 30-35% winrate with not fully formed strategy
  255. - entrpntr: need more than that to want to grind CBT for 7 in a row, but this doesn't use Rest, doesn't use Vitamins, doesn't require good DVs, etc.
  256.  
  257. 15-17 May 2018
  258. - entrpntr: not sure if you saw my Crystal NSC run, but it requires winning 1 battle in Battle Tower; team I was using was pretty simple, only got 4 badges, no DV manip, no vitamins, and only taught Surf/Rock Smash/Mud-Slap as TMs/HMs
  259. - entrpntr: win % for a single battle has been somewhere between 35% and 40%, and not always making the best decisions still
  260. - entrpntr: thinking of replacing Sudowoodo with Miltank, and maybe Lapras with Quagsire/Vaporeon, but will need to test more
  261. - entrpntr: anyway, not sure if I am going to have the stomach for it, but it seems like the strat may be to spend a little bit of time to collect more things to make the team more consistent, then grind Battle Tower until you win
  262. - entrpntr: will have like 2 hours for attempting Battle Tower to beat L50 strats
  263. - entrpntr: probably needs RNG manip for sanity
  264. ~~~~~
  265. - entrpntr: I think L20 Battle Tower might actually happen
  266. - entrpntr: Miltank (@ PSNcureberry) with Stomp/Attract/Milk Drink/Mud-Slap is surprisingly effective against the pool of pokes
  267. - entrpntr: especially with enough speed to hit all realistic thresholds (55 with manip and some Carbos); can take down entire teams on its own
  268. - entrpntr: hasn't translated to sufficient dominance yet, but I'm hopeful
  269. - entrpntr: highlight so far has been winning a fight by PP stalling Umbreon for a million turns and then having Wobbuffet use Counter against Struggle
  270. ~~~~~
  271. - entrpntr: some combo of not being used to the team and practice file having bad Wobbuffet/Lapras has made it so I haven't had great success yet I think
  272. - entrpntr: tho I probably underrated how nice it was to have Sudowoodo to soak up Hyper Beams
  273. - entrpntr: also haven't changed Lapras's moveset yet, just replaced Sudowoodo with Miltank
  274. - entrpntr: RNG manip is easily the biggest hitch right now
  275. - entrpntr: with a 4 badge route, being just ~50% for any given fight is enough to consider grinding it
  276. - entrpntr: when I first looked at L20, I locked in on getting 7 badges and Crobat as a 2nd poke
  277. - entrpntr: Rest seemed like a necessity, but now it feels like you can just shave 30 minutes off and use it for extra attempts at getting a streak going
  278. - entrpntr: problem right now is that it is a fun, not totally serious category; would need to improve chances of winning so grinding isn't intolerable
  279.  
  280. 20 May 2018 - 4 Jul 2018
  281. - Gen 2 manip research and Entei/Raikou manip botting for Glitchless, as a warm up for CBT manips
  282.  
  283.  
  284.  
  285. === Progress/Optimism ===
  286.  
  287. Signs of consistent success appear with Lapras as the third poke
  288.  
  289. 18 Jul 2018
  290. - entrpntr: I will have to figure out what I want to try for L20, which will probably suck me in
  291. - entrpntr: I think adding some fluff to L20 route for consistency sake might be the benchmark I go for
  292. - entrpntr: I don't see any flaws with a Wobbuffet/Weezing/Miltank team
  293. - entrpntr: question is what fluff
  294. - entrpntr: might be the entire Rocket Hideout to get Sludge Bomb/Thief
  295. - entrpntr: Weezing could just have Selfdestruct and it would probably be nearly as useful as if it had 3 other moves
  296. - entrpntr: but the right Weezing deals with Heracross (most importantly), and also helps with annoyers like Pikachu/Umbreon/Blissey
  297. - entrpntr: survive Megahorn + Earthquake, Selfdestruct, Miltank finishes
  298. - entrpntr: tho Miltank can go 1 on 1 with Heracross with some reliability, it just can't switch in
  299. - entrpntr: but idk for sure, haven't battled with it yet
  300. - entrpntr: it switches in on Hyper Beamers as well
  301. - entrpntr: which Lapras and Quagsire couldn't do so well
  302. - entrpntr: also haven't tested with something resembling manipped DV's, maybe Miltank and Wobbuffet don't need as much help with proper stats
  303.  
  304. 21 Jul 2018
  305. - entrpntr: tried some battles with manipped DVs, Weezing didn't seem all too useful
  306. - entrpntr: maybe Hidden Power would help it
  307. - entrpntr: didn't try Thief yet
  308. - entrpntr: Weezing doesn't seem to get too much from coverage turns out to be the issue
  309. - entrpntr: Sludge Bomb is pretty powerful, but you only get to use it once usually
  310. - entrpntr: Gyarados is another thing that is useful against Heracross
  311. - entrpntr: but Blissey/Umbreon/Pikachu are some things I'm annoyed by in general
  312. - entrpntr: being good against other things is valuable though
  313. - entrpntr: and ability to soak up Hyper Beams
  314. - entrpntr: not many things fit the bill
  315. - gifvex: is an eeveelution doing anything with tail whip / sand attack / growl?
  316. - entrpntr: Vaporeon would be good
  317. - entrpntr: Shadow Ball on it might be useful
  318. - entrpntr: Hidden Power would probably be useful
  319. - entrpntr: Tail Whip might be good on Umbreon/Blissey
  320. - entrpntr: I somehow made use of Growl in my NSC run
  321. - entrpntr: Tauros Hyper Beam is strong
  322. - entrpntr: idk it is going to be one of the pokes I've mentioned
  323. - entrpntr: I don't think Golbat/Crobat are too realistic
  324. - entrpntr: Weezing/Lapras/Gyarados/Quagsire/Vaporeon most likely
  325. - entrpntr: I have done a lot of battling with Lapras as the 3rd
  326. - entrpntr: which is what led me to thinking I needed something that wasn't Lapras
  327. - entrpntr: but that was non-manip DVs for all 3
  328. - entrpntr: Quagsire and Lapras just can't switch in on Hyper Beam
  329. - gifvex: oh i looked at eeveelutions because of roar
  330. - entrpntr: yeah Roar could be useful
  331. - entrpntr: Gyara learns it too
  332. - entrpntr: Lapras gets Body Slam but no Roar
  333. - entrpntr: Rock Smash is pseudo-Tail Whip
  334. - entrpntr: not useful for too much besides Blissey/Umbreon
  335. - entrpntr: Slowbro was another thing to consider
  336. - entrpntr: does not help with the Heracross problem though
  337. - entrpntr: but better against Hyper Beamers than other choices
  338. - entrpntr: I don't think there is any obvious option I have missed, so it'll just be evaluating the best mix
  339. - entrpntr: Growl does seem a bit more useful
  340. - entrpntr: but issue with Lapras was you needed a Megahorn to miss or Quick Claw to activate
  341. - entrpntr: wasn't a high percentage proposition, but maybe better with Miltank as 3rd poke
  342.  
  343. 25 Jul 2018
  344. - entrpntr: opened up the savestate with the same team (Weezing)
  345. - entrpntr: instant 7 in a row win
  346. - entrpntr: no Blissey, 1 Heracross, 1 Umbreon, 1 Pikachu
  347. - entrpntr: think Weezing is dead as an option tho
  348. - entrpntr: even in winning 7 in a row it was mostly useless
  349. - entrpntr: it did poison Umbreon, which was somewhat helpful
  350. - entrpntr: I think I'll probably try Lapras
  351. - entrpntr: seems the most reliable, other choices can do specific things well tho
  352. - entrpntr: so testing Lapras first, can figure out what things annoy me the most and see if one of the other options works better from there
  353. ~~~~~
  354. - entrpntr: Slowbro could be good too
  355. - entrpntr: Lapras at least has a prayer of doing something useful if you switch it in on Heracross
  356. - entrpntr: Slowbro just dies to Megahorn
  357. - gifvex: would you use hp flying on gyarados?
  358. - entrpntr: probably
  359. - entrpntr: there is not much of a spectrum for Heracross solutions
  360. - entrpntr: Crobat/Gyarados = destroy the shit out of it
  361. - entrpntr: then next is acceptable solutions that probably die
  362. ~~~~~
  363. - entrpntr: I just realized manipped Lapras can survive Pika Thunderbolt
  364. - entrpntr: since Lapras actually has recourse against Pikachu, I can't see me changing
  365. - entrpntr: Quick Claw makes the most sense for Lapras
  366. - entrpntr: definitely Surf, and probably a question of Body Slam/Growl/Rock Smash/Endure
  367. - entrpntr: for Pikachu, Lapras Surf + Miltank Stomp kills it
  368. - entrpntr: Pikachu is only a threat if Wobbuffet took enough damage killing poke #1, so strategy might be sac Wobbuffet, kill with Surf+Stomp, then hope Miltank can kill the third thing
  369. - entrpntr: Growl is probably a more useful out on Heracross
  370. - entrpntr: Body Slam definitely is useful, but the other moves are too
  371. - entrpntr: so I really have no idea which move loses out
  372. - entrpntr: but ja, I am probably about to take this more seriously
  373. - entrpntr: given the strength of DV manip
  374. ~~~~~
  375. - entrpntr: just got a 7-streak with Lapras
  376. - entrpntr: like 7th or 8th try
  377. - entrpntr: but Rock Smash didn't lower defense the first 7 times I used it in those trials
  378. - entrpntr: so I died to lots of Umbreons and Blisseys
  379. - entrpntr: but ja, I can see grinding for like sub-2:10
  380. - entrpntr: somewhere around there
  381. - entrpntr: just to set the bar
  382. - entrpntr: make 7 badge unviable
  383. - entrpntr: I think this team can get to 75% per battle
  384. - entrpntr: it might already be that with my limited skill
  385. - entrpntr: possible I just got lucky
  386. - entrpntr: Pikachu is less of an issue too with good special Wobbuffet
  387. - entrpntr: I was too locked in on Wobbuffet + Crobat before basically
  388. - entrpntr: I tried Miltank as a 3rd but got owned
  389. - entrpntr: pre-manip tho
  390. - entrpntr: and did not try this particular Miltank set
  391. ~~~~~
  392. - entrpntr: I will leave the possibility alive for Gyarados to take Lapras's place
  393. - entrpntr: the extra speed is nice, and it handles the most annoying pokes pretty well overall (especially since Pika seems less of a threat)
  394. - entrpntr: but so many things have Electric moves
  395. - entrpntr: and Hyper Beam hurts a lot more with less HP
  396. - entrpntr: Miltank just really struggles with the stronger special types
  397. - entrpntr: so having something as a fallback plan for those in case Wobbuffet is dead seemingly ends up having a bunch of value
  398. - entrpntr: Lapras > Gyara for that, even with lower speed, but I'll need to track fights more closely for how I end up losing
  399. - entrpntr: to figure out what is more important overall
  400. - Ed. Note: Paste for L20 Concept (https://pastebin.com/hUpByGnX) created on 27 Jul 2018
  401.  
  402.  
  403.  
  404. === Three Poke Harmony ===
  405.  
  406. Gyarados outshines Lapras and takes its spot to complete the team
  407.  
  408. 28 Jul 2018
  409. - entrpntr: I got another streak of 7
  410. - entrpntr: after losing like 10-11 times
  411. - entrpntr: was like 60% in battles for those attempts, then got streak of 7
  412. - entrpntr: hmm, I had tried Lapras lead, I may be conflating those failures with other failures
  413. - entrpntr: this streak of 7 I got with Hidden Power Bug 70 in place of Growl
  414. - entrpntr: since Umbreon was a common death point last time (also helps to some degree against Exeggutor, Alakazam, Starmie)
  415. - entrpntr: should probably experiment some more with non-Lapras
  416. - entrpntr: Lapras hasn't helped much at all for Heracross or Pikachu
  417. - entrpntr: Miltank is actually pretty reliable at handling Heracross, it just can't switch in
  418. - entrpntr: no Growl makes Tauros a bigger issue
  419. - entrpntr: less ways of dealing with it
  420. - entrpntr: but Lapras's sheer ability to stay alive and accomplish random useful things probably means it is still the choice
  421. - entrpntr: Hidden Power Flying on Gyarados would be necessary, because Heracross Megahorn still does over 1/3
  422. - entrpntr: and Hidden Power Flying is CDxx
  423. - entrpntr: which screws Hit Points
  424.  
  425. 31 Jul 2018 - 2 Aug 2018
  426. - entrpntr: I can't win anymore in Battle Tower
  427. - entrpntr: dunno what to do
  428. - entrpntr: winrate is definitely below 70%
  429. - entrpntr: ok won a set of 7 three attempts later
  430. - entrpntr: was probably 0 for last 30-35
  431. - entrpntr: feels like it was pretty miserable luck, but the enemy gets so many turns that I don't know how unlikely some of the stuff was
  432. ~~~~~
  433. - entrpntr: I realized you might be able to switch Miltank in on Blissey
  434. - entrpntr: just Mud-Slap and Milk Drink spam
  435. - entrpntr: so that should be helpful
  436. - entrpntr: means Rock Smash's main use is Umbreon then
  437. - entrpntr: but Umbreon is pretty important
  438. - entrpntr: Hyper Beam is wrecking havoc so I want to put Growl back in
  439. - entrpntr: Hidden Power Bug has been useful, but maybe not useful enough
  440. - entrpntr: rough balancing act
  441. - entrpntr: I am going to experiment with Gyarados next
  442. ~~~~~
  443. - entrpntr: lol hmm
  444. - entrpntr: Umbreon spams Protect vs Gyarados
  445. - entrpntr: spams Toxic until it hits, then spams Protect
  446. - entrpntr: only 10 PP tho
  447. - entrpntr: you can waste that if you put a Safeguard up
  448. - entrpntr: a couple safeguards
  449. ~~~~~
  450. - entrpntr: Gyarados seems okay
  451. - entrpntr: have won about at the same rate
  452. - entrpntr: makes strategy a bit more obvious
  453. - entrpntr: I was hoping testing Gyarados would make it obvious one way or the other, but now I am just more confused
  454. ~~~~~
  455. - entrpntr: I think Gyarados might be better
  456. - entrpntr: @Bitter Berry; Surf/HP Flying/Rock Smash/Endure
  457. - entrpntr: I've won 3 times with Gyarados
  458. - entrpntr: I may need to try some of the things I've learned with Lapras
  459. - entrpntr: there are ways to keep things alive that I hadn't been doing
  460. - gifvex: does gyarados bait hyper beams better?
  461. - entrpntr: I think so
  462. - entrpntr: I haven't tried Endure on Lapras yet, but I might now
  463. - entrpntr: my theory is something like Gyarados has a more optimized moveset with 4 moves
  464. - entrpntr: Lapras can do more things, but can't fit it all into 4 moves
  465. - entrpntr: but switching Miltank in on Blissey was a revelation that I haven't tried much for Lapras
  466. - entrpntr: among other things
  467. ~~~~~
  468. - entrpntr: it's possible Gyarados should have Quick Claw instead
  469. - entrpntr: anyway, I'm back to optimistic, but still confused
  470. - entrpntr: I think Weezing and Slowbro can be ruled out though
  471. - entrpntr: probably should be switching Miltank in on Hitmonchan too
  472. - entrpntr: anything where Miltank can just go into a heal loop
  473. - entrpntr: I keep on winning 3-4 battles with Gyara, so seems good
  474. - entrpntr: I think Gyara might open up other possibilities
  475. - entrpntr: maybe give Miltank Quick Claw or Bitter Berry instead of PSNcureberry
  476. - entrpntr: but idk, at least Gyara testing gave me more ideas to try
  477. - entrpntr: which can only improve success rate
  478. - entrpntr: but things that are faster than Miltank are really annoying, so maybe Quick Claw can be useful
  479. - entrpntr: main reason I'm biased towards Gyara right now tho is because it is way easier to play than Lapras
  480. ~~~~~
  481. - entrpntr: another 7 streak with Gyara
  482. - entrpntr: probably like 4/30 and I'm barely used to the team
  483. - entrpntr: I did start with some good luck tho
  484. - entrpntr: but I'm confident it shouldn't be a torturous grind
  485. - entrpntr: because I'm not going to grind for first try
  486. - entrpntr: will give some buffer time for failing manips and something like 2-3 losses in Tower
  487. ~~~~~
  488. - entrpntr: and now 5/32ish
  489. - entrpntr: no doubt I've been getting above average luck with Gyara, but the general usage patterns make a lot of sense
  490. - entrpntr: and other than Nidoking, Lapras dies to the same pokes that know Electric moves without really accomplishing much, so the quad weakness isn't a huge dealbreaker like I thought it might be
  491. - entrpntr: thought that was where Body Slam could turn out to be an asset
  492. - entrpntr: eventually I will stop testing and make a decision
  493. ~~~~~
  494. - entrpntr: one Battle Tower attempt with Gyarados for the night, one more streak of 7
  495. - entrpntr: might give one more go at trying to get Lapras to work, but otherwise probably locked in
  496. ~~~~~
  497. - entrpntr: I did another round of Battle Tower after the one I mentioned and my streak is 21 straight battles now
  498.  
  499. 5 Aug 2018
  500. - entrpntr: my theory on why Lapras sucks is simply that it fares worse against Umbreon (Mud-Slap lowers accuracy, but the chip damage it deals is also surprisingly significant)
  501. - entrpntr: there was some theoretical value against Pikachu which led me to think Lapras might be better, but that did not surface too often in practice
  502. - entrpntr: so everything comes down to Umbreon, and Gyarados is better for that
  503. - entrpntr: the fact that Gyara can stay alive after dealing with Heracross (as opposed to sacrificing Lapras) has also seemed to matter more than I thought
  504. ~~~~~
  505. - entrpntr: I am pretty sure it is not versatile enough, but Scyther gets Leer+Thief and STAB Hidden Power Bug or Flying
  506. - entrpntr: reason it comes to mind is it almost seems like the formula for why Gyara works is "Flying type (for Heracross/Umbreon) + can deal enough damage to Umbreon and Blissey (def drop/strong enough moves)"
  507. - entrpntr: Crobat kind of dies to Blissey/Exeggutor and is weaker
  508. - entrpntr: but I think Crobat and Scyther are the only other things that meet that criteria and can do anything remotely interesting
  509. - entrpntr: in any event, I have decided on Gyarados
  510. - entrpntr: so at least I have 1 thing that I am definitely happy with, makes tweaking from here a lot more tolerable
  511.  
  512. 6 Aug 2018 - 8 Sep 2018
  513. - Tower strategy refinement, pre-Tower routing, manip botting
  514.  
  515. 18 Sep 2018
  516. - 2:45:59 raw practice run
  517.  
  518. 28 Oct 2018
  519. - 1:57:57 semi-serious run
  520.  
  521.  
  522.  
  523. ... To be continued? ...
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