The Great Wall of FR

<Wogglebug> Alright, so let's keep a running list. Starting off. Character Development, Immersion, Worldbuild/Depth
<Tehpillowstar> To be immersed in an entire new world that's both familiar and alien, to express myself through a mask that's both dynamic and rounded, someone that I'm not, maybe couldn't ever be
<Wogglebug> What else is there?
<Echo> There's something to be said on a few of these things
<Echo> Again, if I may
<Wogglebug> Of course.
* Tehpillowstar hands Echo the pink conch.
<Echo> It's been hard to do anything like that in the past few weeks. Like, *really* hard. Because almost anytime people try to interact IC, something completely off-the-wall and ludicrous happens.
<Wogglebug> Understandable.
<Wogglebug> That's what we're trying to fix :D
<Wogglebug> So that we can make everyone have fun, more.
<Wogglebug> So, Echo, were there any elements of RP that you find make it especially enjoyable other than the three lkisted?
<Roget> Echo could that be addressed by, say, having people give a warning or asking "yo is it okay if I do a thing" and possibly encouraging people to do them less often?
<Wogglebug> Well, we'll get to that Roget.
<Echo> Roget: I suppose. I'm not an engineer.
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<Echo> :|
<Wogglebug> First we should define our goals.
<Wogglebug> So that we can consider all possiilities against eachother.
<Echo> You'd have to ask a doctor about that.
<Echo> :p
<Wogglebug> Hmm?
<Echo> Wogglebug: Something I enjoy about an RP
<Echo> ...
<Echo> Hmmm
<Echo> I've got one.
<Echo> And it would take a bit of explanation.
<Echo> So bear with me.
<Wogglebug> Take your time.
<Echo> When people role play. As in, actually playing in the role of this living, breathing human you've created. A thinking, rational being.
<Echo> As a preface... again, like TPS mentioned in her post on the forum...
<Echo> " A lot of us have never carried a gun before, repaired an electrical system, sutured up a stab wound, hacked a computer, scuba dived, or..."
<Echo> I don't expect... Roget for example. to have Ralph detail the steps toward treating a double sucking chest wound with debris complications
<Echo> Or, for example, Alivi to play Eriko as formulating the exact grainage of her thermite blends.
<Echo> But...
<Echo> I've spoken on this before, and this isn't meant to sound like abject criticism
<Echo> But sometimes you take a step back and look at many of the characters (and not necessarily one of those, or both, or either)...
<Echo> And think "Good lord, are these actually supposed to be university graduates/special operations personnel/30+ year olds?
<Echo> "
<Alivi> Some are younger than 30
<Alivi> just saying.
<Tehpillowstar> irrelevant
<Wogglebug> shh alivi
<Gara> be university graduates/special operations personnel
<Echo> Yeah, I know, I can't address them all
<Echo> Hold tight :p
<Echo> But what happens is people stop playing roles
<Echo> and start playing cliches
<Echo> And soon, it happens that everyone's playing a caricature of a human being, unstable and basically a walking pastiche of half thought-out concepts
<Echo> It's no longer a coherent human being who would be working there, and chosen for the aspects and skills they embody
<Echo> It turns into that same pastiche who speak and act with little foresight as to who they're supposed to be
<Echo> I myself enjoy when people can play beyond this
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<Echo> And really consider who their characters are, why they're there, and how this human being they've created would behave under those conditions
* Echo puts the pink conch in the center of the circle.
<Wogglebug> Coolio.
<WalrusKing> Just wanted to pop in to say I'm here
<Alivi> hi WalrusKing
<Wogglebug> So that puts us at : Character Development, Character Depth/Realism, Setting/Character Immersion, Worldbuild/Depth
<Alivi> <3
<Wogglebug> Did you have anything to add to our list, WalrusKing?
<Wogglebug> Or you, Roget?
<WalrusKing> I had a question
<Wogglebug> Go right ahead.
<Tehpillowstar> (We are currently discussing about this: http://far-recon.wikidot.com/forum/t-729576/far-recon-canontalk-i:consistency)
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<Wogglebug> (And the topics related in general)
<WalrusKing> Are we going to address the fact that runs and soft stuff operate very differently in a great many regards including these things? Or are we attempting to tackle the entirety of the thing as a whole?
<Wogglebug> Everything is to be considered.
<Wogglebug> And anything that's left out, you should bring up.
<Wogglebug> Right now we're figuring out what makes people enjoy RPing.
<Wogglebug> So that we can figure out how to maximize fun.
<Wogglebug> Do you have any ideas as to that?
<Tehpillowstar> If I may
<Wogglebug> Go ahead.
* Tehpillowstar takes the pink conch.
<Tehpillowstar> Another thing I feel that FR would become better is moderation in everything, including moderation.
<Wogglebug> Alright, well, tha's the sort of thign we'll move onto in a bit.
<Tehpillowstar> No, it's releated
<Tehpillowstar> Hear me out
<Wogglebug> Mkay
<Tehpillowstar> Currently, with incidents happening at every possible moment, suddenly incidents are no longer special diversions from softrp that are interesting and short, common enough so that players won't be surprised, but rare enough to be savored
<Wogglebug> TPS, that's what we'll be getting to :(
<Wogglebug> But we have to go in order.
<Tehpillowstar> They just become constant streams of interruption, and that's not fun
<Tehpillowstar> The same is with tone.
<Wogglebug> Otherwise we just get all jumbled, ya know?
<Tehpillowstar> I think that the RP would be more fun with a balanced tone.
* Echo places a hand on Tehpillowstar's shoulder.
<Tehpillowstar> So that the really cool moments: the epic, the awesome, the heartwarming,
<Tehpillowstar> okay
<Echo> Hold, young padawan.
<Alivi> lol
<Echo> In good time.
<WalrusKing> ^
<Alivi> i love star wars...
<Wogglebug> Alright then, back to thing.
<Tehpillowstar> Alright
<Wogglebug> Character Development, Character Depth/Realism, Setting/Character Immersion, Worldbuild/Depth
<Wogglebug> Anythng to add to this list?
<Wogglebug> From anyone?
<Wogglebug> Roget, Proto_Lost?
<Wogglebug> WalrusKing?
<Proto_Lost> Aside from getting to do stuff you've always wanted to do? I think I covered that in mine already XD
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<WalrusKing> If we're talking about rping in general, I have nothing to add to that list that I can think of
<Wogglebug> Alright. So let's start with this, and if we think of anything to add to it we can.
<Wogglebug> So, what we need to do is to figure out how we can optimize our operations to maximize the quality of these things.
<Wogglebug> So that we can have mroe fun.
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<Wogglebug> So let's start with the first one.
<Wogglebug> Character Developemnt.
* Echo puts a pipe in his mouth, rolls a cigarette, shoves it into the end of the pipe, and lights the cigarette.
* Tehpillowstar gives Echo the conch.
* Alivi raises hand!
<Wogglebug> In this context, this in particular refers to the dynamic change of characters and their interactions over time.
<Wogglebug> Yes, Alivi?
* Echo yields to Alivi
<Alivi> Oh you said what I was gonna say.
<Wogglebug> Oh, was the pipe a signal to speak?
<Alivi> You know me I love the character development thing.
<Wogglebug> Kay Alivi
<Alivi> Thing is it isnt just dynamic tho
<Alivi> <3
<Wogglebug> Echo? Did you want to say something or....
<Alivi> ^ before I continue
<Echo> Una momento
<Wogglebug> Alrighty
<Tehpillowstar> While it's possible to create a rounded character from nothing.
<Wogglebug> TPS, we're discussing development, not characterization and stuff.
<Wogglebug> *keep in mind
<Wogglebug> That'll come next
<Alivi> <3
<Wogglebug> Right now it's about interactions and changes.
<Echo> back
<Tehpillowstar> Ehhh I'll leave Echo the conch
<Alivi> Things I like about these-
<Wogglebug> We're currently waiting to see what Echo has to say
<Echo> (Sorry, fielding a radio call)
<Wogglebug> No problem, Echo
<Echo> Now
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<Echo> To clarify
<FranklinDEsquire> ....
<Echo> So that I know we're talking about the same thing
<FranklinDEsquire> hello?
<Echo> What exactly are you referring to?
<Wogglebug> Yes, Franklin?
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<Echo> FranklinDEsquire: Hello.
<Wogglebug> May I help you?
<Tehpillowstar> (Hi, we're having a big---)
<Echo> Godspeed, Franklin.
<Tehpillowstar> ( :| )
<Echo> Godspeed.
* Gara salutes.
<Wogglebug> Echo: I am referring to the interactions between characters, their relationsips, and how these chnage both in themseves and the charcters over time.
<Wogglebug> The thing you disucssed will be covered int he next section.
<Echo> Right.
<Wogglebug> Are we oay to continue?
<Echo> Also, as a heads up, since we're all (I assume) going to be frank and honest here
* Wogglebug waits
<Echo> If I name names, I'm not critiquing *you*
<Echo> I'm critiquing a character
<Echo> Like reading a draft on the wiki
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<Wogglebug> Of course. We should all keep that in mind, in our discussions, for everyone.
<Echo> I mean, we're all adults, OOC/IC split
<Echo> Well
<Echo> Not all of us.
<Echo> But you know what I mean.
<Alivi> We are all mature
<Wogglebug> Most, I think.
<Wogglebug> Right, so let's continue.
<Wogglebug> Let's address chaacter interaction.
<Wogglebug> Does anyone note any issues involved therein? Be it whatever you may have noticed, it is likely relevent.
<Wogglebug> Some things are unavoidable, but many can be corrected if acknowledged.
<Wogglebug> This is largely between PCs, and between PCs and major NPCs to a lesser degree.
<Wogglebug> General NPC/PC interaction falls under the third section.
<Wogglebug> So, any issues?
<Echo> Well.
<Echo> Any discussion on this...
<Echo> Is going to tie in *VERY* heavily to the related concept of character development, and working out who a character is, and playing them as such
<Wogglebug> That is why the one will lead into the other.
<Echo> So, not splitting hairs, but the two things are very nearly one and the same.
<Wogglebug> I am aware.
<Tehpillowstar> I don't have anything to say on the subject
<Wogglebug> But by approaching it this way, we can go slower, and more thoroughly.
<Alivi> So far character interaction has been ok like you said some things are unavoidable
<Alivi> and none of the things I can think up are things that are directly issues.
<Wogglebug> Echo, have you noticed any issues?
<Echo> Well
<Echo> I'll go ahead and say it
<Echo> And one that ties in with what I just mentioned
<Echo> Let's look at a rather obvious case that has popped up frequently as a topic of discussion
<Echo> Carmen and Ashley
<Puppetmaster> I cannot /tell/ you.
<Garaway> I've spoken to both players on that, personally. They have a resolution plan.
<Echo> Puppetmaster and WalrusKing's characters.
<Puppetmaster> How massive of a discussion I've had on that.
<Garaway> That's been sorted.
<Alivi> What about them/
<Echo> Oh, yeah, like I said, I'm not bagging on the two of you
<Echo> Or trying to open a wound
<Wogglebug> Well, let's continue the issue anyway, as a general case.
<Echo> Just using it as an example
<WalrusKing> go on
<Echo> One of them is a US Army motor transport operator who's been in for a while, and probably seen some shit. The other is an FBI agent who worked the game for a bit.
<Echo> Two adults, two professionals, two rational beings who were hired for their expertise in disparate fields.
<Echo> But now, looking at the two of them in-character
<Echo> If we were to really examine that, there's not a lot of either of those three things that would really and truly ring as overtly correct.
<Echo> I'm not saying that one has to play some staid, flat straight-man (i.e the foil to the goof)
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<Echo> But their behavior ties into what I mentioned as to character development with regards to their interactions
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<Wogglebug> Mm-hmm
<Echo> Do a pair of consummate professionals, hired to keep the world safe, whose actions could spell life and death not for each other, but thousands
<Echo> Would they really sit and act that way? Yeah, humans, and yeah, the human element
<Echo> But something to consider.
<Wogglebug> An insightful point.
<Wogglebug> So, that's one issue.
<Wogglebug> Are there any other issues relating to character interaction anyone can think of?
<Wogglebug> Or charcter dynamic change?
<WalrusKing> Well for one
<Echo> Like I said, not bagging on you two
<Echo> But it's an example
<Alivi> i guesss im not familiar?
<WalrusKing> to me at least it would appear that this issue would be more related to the second point of discussion, that is to say depth/realism
<Wogglebug> Hey guys, I'm gonna disconnect for a minute, so try not to go anywhere
<Echo> k
<WalrusKing> It remains unclear to me how this is relateted to Character depth/interaction, which is what I thought we were discussing at the current moment
<WalrusKing> guess we'll wait up on woggle though
* Tehpillowstar will save her arguments for the world building and setting.
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<Wogglebot> Sorry about that.
<Wogglebot> Did I miss anything?
<Wogglebot> ?
<WalrusKing> Last thing you saw?
<Wogglebot> I don't know.
<Snowshoe> <WalrusKing> It remains unclear to me how this is relateted to Character depth/interaction, which is what I thought we were discussing at the current moment <WalrusKing> guess we'll wait up on woggle though
<Wogglebot> That!
<Wogglebot> That was the last thing
<Snowshoe> That's all that was said
<Wogglebot> That works
<Wogglebot> Cool.
<Wogglebot> So then, given that that wilol be covered in character depth, are there any other concerns regarding interaction?
<Wogglebot> Or change?
<Wogglebot> Snowshoe?
* Snowshoe slides under the bus
<Wogglebot> lol
* Puppetmaster drives the bus.
<Wogglebot> Go ahead Snow.
<Tehpillowstar> If we have basically covered the entirety of characters as a whole, I would like to add that a lot of this might help by discarding the notion of "seat of the pants characterization"
<Alivi> lol
<Echo> Man....
<Tehpillowstar> And encouraging people to nail down their characters before they are approved, to avoid half-baked ideas
<Echo> I can talk on *that* for a hot minute
<Wogglebot> TPS: We have not yet, but we will relatively soon.
<Wogglebot> Snow has a thing though
<Wogglebot> Let him go so we can address that too
<Tehpillowstar> okay
<Wogglebot> (It'll actualy go before the thing, cause of ordering)
<Wogglebot> (But that's okay, it's brief)
<Snowshoe> like echo said, bringing up that interaction is an example of something that comes up a lot, and those two characters are just one instance. We do have a lot of what I've called "Soap opera drama", where people just spontaneously disagree, argue IC until people start complaining OOC, and then things get resolved because the involved parties talk OOC
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<Snowshoe> It's a pattern, and thank god it usually gets resolved OOC like it is here instead of carrying on for weeks, but it's something I'd love to see go
<Wogglebot> Alrighty.
<Wogglebot> So let's get this one, as it's pretty simple.
<Wogglebot> Does anyone have any ideas how these sorts of issues might be avoided or eased?
<WalrusKing> I for one feel that this question is intrinsically linked to the tone question
<Alivi> I think really looking at the characters and their personas making sure the interactions/fights are good IC and have good reason.
<WalrusKing> which in turn links completely with several other issues on which I'll comment later
<Alivi> On Forum RP this problem is usually limited because before interations are plotted out people will talk over the interactions
<Wogglebot> All things are linked, but it is through division through which they can most easily be addressed
<Alivi> Two people will say- Hey my character might not like you. Lets RP them disagreeing, lets figure out how, how long it will last , if or when it will end, why, etc.
<Wogglebot> (Also, is someone loggin? I'd like logs available for later reference, if possible.)
<Snowshoe> I can log
<Wogglebot> Have you been here since we started?
<WalrusKing> I would like if these logs were posted on forums
<Snowshoe> yeah, I was just AFK
<Wogglebot> Cool.
<WalrusKing> so that those not present can jump in at a later time
<Wogglebot> Uh-huh
<Wogglebot> So, on this issue, any ideas on how this can be resolved?
<Wogglebot> Or aided, or whathaveyou?
<Alivi> And during interactions like fights or disagreement- people are constantly communicating
<Alivi> and I think that may be the key. Communication.
<Wogglebot> Mkay
<Wogglebot> So what you're saying is that by making sure to maintain communication, interactions can be made better?
<Alivi> Yea. OOC-wise so that the characters involved and players involved know what is going on.
<Wogglebot> Any other ideas guys?
<WalrusKing> My only concern is that that will prove difficult/questionable to enforce, but the concept has merit
<Wogglebot> MmHmm
<Wogglebot> Well, I think the best way to approach this is by being aware of it.
<Tehpillowstar> Yeah
<Echo> Well
<Echo> That
<Echo> Or if you want to minimize OOC/IC mixing
<Snowshoe> I'm gonna clarify what I said earlier: I don't have a problem with characters disagreeing IC, they're human, people do disagree. My issue is when it disrupts others ability to RP, or when that disagreement between two people dominates the IC channel for extended periods of time.
<Echo> And keep them segregated, and let character interaction legitimately determine things
<Tehpillowstar> "Is this in-character for my character? Is my OOC feelings for this player filtering into the IC?"
<Echo> It would, though, perhaps do better to more critically examine a character's actions.
<Wogglebot> We could put forward a policy of trying to be aware of such things, and when one notices it, bringing it up.
<WalrusKing> ^ probably best way to handle it
<Echo> And consider why your characters are acting the way they are, and whether it really makes sense
<Wogglebot> Really, this issue is a matter of the player-base self-regulating.
<WalrusKing> though it requires support of the community as a whole
<Wogglebot> Uh-huh
<Wogglebot> So I guess the major action here is to perhaps note somewhere that one should keep such things in mind, etc etc etc
<Wogglebot> Right, good.
<Tehpillowstar> I would definately like this to happen, especially if it comes with OOC analysis of characters as a whole
<Wogglebot> No, if no one has any other thigns to bring up, I believe we can move onto characterization as a whole.
* Echo cracks his knuckles.
<Wogglebot> The first issue to be brought up was that dealing with the way in which characters act their age and such.
<Wogglebot> Now, what other issues are there? Keep in mind, right now we're doing issues.
<Wogglebot> We'll get to solutions in a bit.
<Wogglebot> Speak freely, but be sure not to talk over one another.
<WalrusKing> Character Development/interaction, [Character Depth/Realism], Setting/Character Immersion, Worldbuild/Depth
<WalrusKing> just reminding everyone of where we are
<Wogglebot> lol, good job.
<Echo> If I can start with a question
<Wogglebot> Sure
<Echo> Does anyone here play tabletop?
<Wogglebot> I myself do not.
<Aphex_> I have.
<WalrusKing> I DM more than I play as of late
<Echo> People down there in the idle list, if you're awake, jump in, you could be helpful here.
* Aphex_ is really late
<Echo> Roget: How about you?
<Echo> Snowshoe: ?
<Tehpillowstar> I once did a little tabletop
<Echo> You guys ever done any pen and paper tabletop?
<Snowshoe> I have a couple groups online that use dnd systems, and I have a tabletop group on-campus I game with
<Alivi> Ive done a couple
<Alivi> Mostly WhiteWolf tpye
<Snowshoe> pathfinder, if it matters. Not 3.5 or 4e
<Alivi> type*
<Echo> Right.
<Alivi> However Ive also down Forum RP
<Echo> Now... with all that in mind.
<Aphex_> Same thing as Snowshoe, if it matters.
<Gara> Echo: Yes, Pathfinder and VtM.
<Tehpillowstar> 3.5 here
<Echo> You guys as tabletop players are probably intimately familiar with the sheer detail that goes into rolling a character in most systems.
<Echo> Not just the numbers side.
<Echo> But in their backstory, who they are, what they do, why they are the way they are.
<Gara> Yup.
<Aphex_> Mhm.
<WalrusKing> Yup, though alot of thats involved in rolling npc's too
<Echo> Snowshoe: I know you know what I'm talking about
<Echo> NPCs, for you GMs out there
<Echo> Even if you're not getting into their family tree third cousin twice removed
<Echo> The people you create have their own motives
<Echo> Their own actions, and things that may fall in line with or clash with the PCs
<Echo> They have their own distinct flavor and personality
<Echo> Because if you don't do this, it quickly turns into a pattern of the same person talking through 30 different changed-face NPCs
<WalrusKing> ^
<Echo> Now, you may ask... how does this tie into characterization here in FR?
<WalrusKing> I approve this message
<Echo> I'll explain.
<Echo> A lot of newer players here, myself included, if you've spoken to shockwavelover, and had a character background or description more than 10 words on a single line long
<Echo> You know exactly what I'm about to say.
<Echo> "It doesn't matter who your character was before they came to the site, and people should find this stuff out IC"
<Echo> These are the words of someone who has no idea about the underpinnings of a role playing game
<Echo> The person you create to play as, and step into the shoes of when you're IC
<Echo> It takes more than 10 words to describe who they are, where they came from, and to hint at why they are the way they are
<Echo> Because it takes more than 10 words to do the same thing for a living, breathing human being
<Aphex_> ^
<Echo> It's not quite so easily codified
<Echo> Now, again
<Echo> You tabletoppers know *exactly* what I'm talking about
<Echo> I
<Echo> I've seen character histories on 3.5 characters than are, literally 10 pages long
<Echo> AND IT USUALLY SHOWS
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<Echo> This character with a history almost as deep and involved as our own personal stories as human beings are usually incredibly deep, and elaborately played
<Echo> There's a reasoning behind their actions in-character, and behind almost every word that comes out of that characters' mouth
<Echo> Who they were before the came to the site is absolutely important, because it informs each of these things
<Snowshoe> I'd like to offer my reasoning for why things're that way, once you're done, if I can
<Echo> Sure thing, I'm just about done
<salvagebar> creepiest image I've seen in a while http://i.imgur.com/oASP28y.jpg
<salvagebar> Hello Echo
<Echo> This is why I was on earlier about to really consider who you've created, think a little on their background, look into what they do in the real world (not saying get a doctorate or join the military, just take a glance sometime)
<Echo> And figure out who your character really is, and ask yourself as you play, would this adult - selected for their merits for this position, given their background, training, and history - act in such a manner?
* Echo passes the pink conch to Snowshoe
<Alivi> where is that from salvagebar
<WalrusKing> I request the conch next after Snowshoe
<Echo> NO
<Echo> :|
<WalrusKing> sadface
<salvagebar> Alivi from a comic book series called Beasts Of Burden
<Alivi> ooo
<Alivi> .->
<Snowshoe> I do feel the need to clarify one thing: I love pathfinder, and I love deep, complex character creation. I love how you can spend hours just tweaking numbers slightly in systems like that, and the variety that's available in character creation. Anything with character creation like that is /awesome/.
<Snowshoe> But there is a bit of disparity between pathfinder/DnD and the system FR uses. Those systems are built for deep, involved character creation, and it takes months to become really, intimately familiar with the system. FUDGE, the system we're based off of, you can pick up in about half an hour. It's not complicated.
<Gara> I don't think we're talking about numbers, snow.
<Gara> We're talking about /characters/
<Snowshoe> Our system, as it is, doesn't cater to the same audience that DnD does. The system's relatively easy to pick up, to where most people can have a pretty solid understanding of everything after sitting IC for a week and watching one run.
<Snowshoe> I know, gara.
<Snowshoe> DnD systems force depth on you, because of how involved the character creation is. You're heavily invested in the creation process. Here, character creation is comparatively short. You toss up about eight stats, a few aspects, and number-wise your character is done.
<Snowshoe> I do like deep characters, and I'm not against them here, but there is that disparity. Generally, we want everyone to be on the same level, and we have people coming in who have been RPing for years in all kinds of systems, and we have people who have never RPd before.
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<Snowshoe> I do see internal consistency listed as a big thing from TPS, and I think this is an instance of that. The characters on-site need to be consistent with each other, or at least somewhere near it. Having a character with a ten-paragraph backstory doesn't really mesh with the characters who have "Got a degree, did a thing, here they is".
<Echo> If I may, again, real quick
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<Snowshoe> feel free
<Echo> Like you said, it's easy to toss those stats on, and get someone ready to go
<Echo> No argument at all there, and that's a part of the draw
<Echo> And I'm not suggesting throwing a wrench in it
<Echo> But when you get someone who's newer to the concept of actually playing a role
<Echo> And stepping into the shoes of a person who would be at a place like this
<Echo> It might do well to take some time to explain those basic precepts there
<Echo> And try and instill some of that critical thought into the equation
<Echo> Again, not saying to have, say, if Puppetmaster were new, come in and write a 30-page essay on what a Sergeant in Army Motor T does before playing
<Echo> But to try to get people to sit and think about what the words they're putting on paper actually mean
<Echo> I don't think there'd be much harm to it
<WalrusKing> Can I get conch at some point? What I have to say is intimately related to what Echo is saying
<Snowshoe> if he's done, feel free
<Echo> Oh, yeah, sorry WK
* Echo tosses it over.
<WalrusKing> Okay
<WalrusKing> Echo said something critical here, which is also related closely to something veteran players have also appeared to find hard to swallow
<WalrusKing> To start off, unless I am mistaken I am the newest player at the table?
<Tehpillowstar> Not quite
<WalrusKing> That so? Did not know
<Echo> There's the Magnificent Ryuta
<WalrusKing> I meant at the table, right now.
<Echo> Ah, right.
<WalrusKing> participating in this discussion
<Echo> Yeah, I think you're correct.
<Tehpillowstar> Carry on
<WalrusKing> Okay, to give you some background, I have DM'ed and played tabletops for a while now, been rping and weaving a whole manner of different stories and characters for a substantial while longer
<WalrusKing> As I have stated on here previously, if it were still a viable occupation I would be a storyteller
<WalrusKing> but I am fresh to the table
<WalrusKing> on the one hand, this means I am less qualified to talk about age old issues, on the other hand this means I can offer a fresh perspective, or the perspective of a relativley fresh player at this table
<WalrusKing> Things I can do: weave an interesting, complex character, play them well for the most part
<WalrusKing> Things I can't do: the same when the tone is changing/seemingly unsure of it wants to be
<WalrusKing> and here I mean tone in terms of dark/light and realistic/more fantastic
<WalrusKing> going back to what Echo said earlier about my character: yes Ashley is to a certain extent less realistic than might be expected if the site were expected to be realistic
<Echo> (More on that last line when WK's done)
<WalrusKing> she is however from my point of view, for the most part internally continuous. Her faults here are not mostly of discontinuity or inconsistency, but rather that she does not match the tone of the thing as well as some would desire it seems
<WalrusKing> my point here is that it is currently very difficult to tell what sort of character FR wants exactly
<WalrusKing> on the one hand you have more realistic personalities like Jason
<WalrusKing> on the other hand wacky shit, and announcements regarding a lightening of tone
<WalrusKing> I feel like FR needs to establish tone better, and help players understand what that tone is if players are to have any hope of making a satisfactory character outside of stabbing in the dark
<WalrusKing> Roget can confirm I came to him with several different characters, all more realistic than the last, and I could have gone more realistic yet had I known what was expected of me
<WalrusKing> if there are no questions directly about my points, i return conch to the table
<Snowshoe> I have a comment on that as well, but it's more an explanation than anything else. Echo wanted to go ahead, so he can go.
<Echo> 21:41WalrusKingand here I mean tone in terms of dark/light and realistic/more fantastic
<Echo> I'm going to attack this little point real quick... and go onto another thing the tabletoppers will be familiar with
<Echo> Every campaign you play is grounded in some sort of rules.
<Echo> Granted, fantasy is a little more... fantastic than most settings, but I'll explain...
<Echo> When you see a skeleton, you know what a skeleton does.
<Echo> You know that smacking it with a club is going to be better than hitting ti with a sword.
<Echo> You know that red dragon's going to breathe fire as a breath weapon.
<Echo> You know magic missile is going to do straight up force damage.
<Echo> There are internal consistencies to everything you do, even in a campaign filled with things like dragons, magic, and evil skeletons.
<Echo> There's a certain degree of being tied down to a constant
<Echo> Having some groundwork to base both character and gameplay decisions on
<Echo> On a related tangent
<Echo> Just the same as you can have the fantastic mixed in with the mundane/realistic/constant
<Tehpillowstar> (In FR, Magic A is not Magic A)
<Echo> You can have a realistic believable setting with some amount of plausibility
<Echo> And still have fun things happening
<Tehpillowstar> (See: Any decent Urban Fantasy)
<Echo> As TPS mentioned in her thread post...
<Echo> If we look at, say, the SCP wiki as an example
<Echo> We have a large body of fiction, created by a great many writers
<Echo> And the general body of work is, overall, a fairly serious look at how humanity would deal with the fantastical through implementation of the mundane
<Echo> And then, over on the side, we have joke SCPs
<Echo> Most of them are enjoyable, and some of them I honestly could not stop giggling at when I first read them
<Echo> But if this were to be the whole of the SCP wiki
<Echo> It would *quickly* get tiresome
<salvagebar> Echo I love you so much. Seriously.
<Echo> And you'd lose any real metric of what's going on
<Echo> Because there'd be absolutely no metric to judge against, because everything would be so overtly off the wall you couldn't even tell anymore
<Echo> Again, this isn't an exhortation to turn the game here into a balls-shatteringly painful ARMA-scale replica of life on a Foundation site
<WalrusKing> [ENEMY MAN, NEAR THAT BUSH]
<Echo> But a little bit of grounding in practicality and some degree of consistency, as mentioned earlier regarding characters, would hardly harm anything, and would give people a more solid Foundation to build their characters
<Echo> Build a world, and interact with each
* Echo tosses the conch back to the center
<WalrusKing> Can I ask a question?
<Snowshoe> sure, but I'd like to comment once you're done
<Echo> Sorry, Snowshoe
<Echo> Not allowed :|
* Echo goes mad and seizes your op star
<Snowshoe> ;-;
<WalrusKing> You mentioned that you were going to attack that line, but I fail to see how you did, unless you were saying that realism and fantasy can coexist?
<Echo> Nah, by "attack" I meant "address"
<Echo> "Let's go ahead and tackle/attack/deal with/address, etc"
<Echo> Figure of speech
<Echo> And yes, realism and fantasy can absolutely coexist
<Echo> I mean
<Echo> Look at what the RP's based on
<Echo> As stated, in its simplest terms
<WalrusKing> well yeah
<Tehpillowstar> Look at the Dresden Files
<Echo> The SCP Foundation describes how a paramilitary, international paragovernmental agency sponsored by world governments would deal with the fantastical
<Echo> Through the use of the mundane
<WalrusKing> but i think everyone got my overall point?
<WalrusKing> [I know realistic fantasy is a thing]
<Echo> The marrying of realism and fantasy are the hingepoint of the whole body of fiction we've assembled
<Echo> is, rather
<WalrusKing> right? If everyone got my point I will cede the conch
* Snowshoe steals the conch and dives into the corner
<Snowshoe> K
<Snowshoe> because internal consistency, I do have to explain why it's such an issue with us. We, as GMs who do runs [I am totally still in that group guize], have specific strengths. Things we're good at running, and that we enjoy doing. It's different for all of us.
<Snowshoe> there are a few of us, especially in comparison to a traditional tabletop game with one DM for one campaign. There are two to six of us, depending on who you count, running this one campaign that doesn't have a set end.
<Snowshoe> Because we're good at different things, our runs all have different tones, different things that happen, and that applies to incidents as well. I enjoy that, because I think it mixes things up, but it does create that internal inconsistency with the tone. There are pretty significant differences between my prefab 12 runs and roget's dog run.
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<Snowshoe> Like I said, this is more an explanation than anything else. I don't have anywhere I was going with that, but it's the best explanation I have.
<WalrusKing> no, its good
<WalrusKing> It's explaining the inverse side of the problem
<Echo> That said...
<Echo> If I could suggest something; I've been TT'ing for the better part of a decade, and even outside of online RPs with multiple GMs, I've run guest GM sessions IRL
<Echo> And you have the same thing
<Echo> Different people are good at different things, of course
<Echo> But a key part of this, especially when you're doing this for a community of players, is that communication isn't a bad thing
<Echo> And at the end of the day, yeah, it's awesome if you have a great time, but if you're making things so see-saw'y that your players can't keep up, and have no idea how to even start drawing characterization
<Echo> You're doing them a disservice in the end
<Echo> A little communication and planning between people can go a long way at smoothing things out, and collating even more disparate concepts into something easier to digest for the players
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* Tehpillowstar would like to propose a semi-solution to this.
<Wogglebot> Go ahead, TPS.
<Wogglebot> But try to keep things close.
* Tehpillowstar takes the conch.
<Tehpillowstar> Just make a few simple rules on how the Pool works, and stick to them. There are some rules already ("The Pool connects to different dimensions via a dimensional anchor")
<Tehpillowstar> Have the GMs know how the Pool works, besides a few abstract, half-baked ideas.
<Tehpillowstar> The characters don't have to know, but if the GMs do, then consistency can spout from those firmly established rules
<Tehpillowstar> For an example of a rule, in Toy Story, toys are alive, but they cannot reveal their alive-ness to their owners or other human beings.
<Snowshoe> I have... I guess another comment. Only a line or two, if that's alright? I can wait.
<Wogglebot> Alright, I've gotta go guys. Keep everything civil, and keep logs.
<Alivi>  ok
<Tehpillowstar> See ya Wogglebot
<Wogglebot> If thngs become uncivil, pause discussion and we will continue at another time.
<Tehpillowstar> okay
<Wogglebot> See y'all.
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<Tehpillowstar> To summon up my point, the rules don't have to be complex, they just have to be stuck to unless it is appropriate (See: climax of Toy Story 1), however, not all rules can be broken appropriately (For example, if your magic system says that you cannot create something from nothing, someone being able to do that would be breaking the rules)
<Tehpillowstar> To be honest, FR /does/ have some rules...kinda
<Tehpillowstar> Yeah, go ahead Snowshoe
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<Tehpillowstar> ...We knew you little, Dr_Visitor
<Snowshoe> I object to establishing set rules for how the pool behaves, but that's more a gut reaction than anything. I'm wondering how establishing rules would help with tonal consistency, and what sort of rules you'd go for. I'm opening that for anyone to weigh in on, but I'd prefer if TPS be given priority if she has something specific to say, since it was her suggestion.
<Tehpillowstar> Well there are two rules that I see pretty much all the time, one of them was outright stated, one of them implied
<Tehpillowstar> The first rule is that an emergence event happens because the Pool connected with another universe, and this connection is sustained by a /dimensional anchor/
<Tehpillowstar> This dimensional anchor is always on the otherside of the Pool.
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<Alivi> if I may comment on that?
<Tehpillowstar> And must be "destroyed" (or rather, get rid of) in order for the emergence event to stop.
<Tehpillowstar> Mind, that the anchor can be anything
<Snowshoe> going AFK for about ten minutes, gonna read up when I get back, please continue
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<Tehpillowstar> The second rule is that the Poolboys always return to their home universe, no matter what.
<Tehpillowstar> I say the first thing is a rule because it was outright flat out stated, IC, by Director Corbette, on the initial briefing for the Romans, Dinosaurs, run.
<Tehpillowstar> And is generally kept to
<Tehpillowstar> Yes, Alivi?
<Alivi> but it hasnt always been that way… it is most of the time, but other times it was objectives rather than an anchor, also the anchor never has to be dystroyed or gotten rid of
<Alivi> Sometimes containment or fulfilling an objective was good enough.
<Tehpillowstar> That's why I say that the anchor is a fluid concept. It's not always an entity or an object. Corbette mentioned that the anchor could also be abstract, an objective or an event to be survived.
<Alivi> mmhm
<Alivi> I just want that to be clear cause many times I see people rush into a run with the idea of
<Alivi> OK
<Alivi> where is the thing, lets get the thing, lets shoot the thing, lets get home
<Alivi> Which is something I try to get away from at least in my runs.
<Tehpillowstar> In tropey terms, the anchor is the objective, and comes in many myrad forms.
<Tehpillowstar> But what is consistent is that the objective needs to be achieved to get rid of the connection and get rid of the emergence event before the Pool burps up Bad Stuff.
<Echo> asdl;kfjaslkdjfslkjd
<Echo> Fuck
<Echo> My feet are going numb
<Tehpillowstar> ?
<Tehpillowstar> D:
<Echo> Random aside
<Echo> Well
<Echo> Not so random
<Echo> Attached to that last statement
<Echo> The question's been raised IC
<Echo> Does anything the characters do really matter as far as "containment"
<Echo> They have the wall
<Echo> They have troops and guns on the wall
<Echo> They go inside to prevent emergence events
<Echo> And to keep things from spewing out
<Echo> Yet there's seemingly an interminable amount of creepy-crawlies and things that are more or less random always crawling out of the woodwork
<Echo> There's never any real sense that what the characters are doing actually matters towards the reason they're doing it
<Tehpillowstar> There used to be the excuse that the creepy-crawlies coming from the wood were the stuff that escaped from the Big One
<Tehpillowstar> But...The Big One happened a year ago, and now with the site back up, the creepy crawlies are coming out from underneath the couch.
<Tehpillowstar> Instead of the woods
<TheRaven> It's always been like that.
<Tehpillowstar> (It has. The logs can prove it.)
<Tehpillowstar> (Unrelated, ohai TheRaven)
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<Roget> The reason that was established canonically, as it was explained to me ages ago, pre-big one, is that the red pool spreads below the soil of the site, and causes small anomalies to occur on-site because of its interdimensional properties
* Roget isn't back, just saw this and had an explanation for why
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<WalrusKing> Good Guy Roget
<Echo> "You really wanna build your house right over this lava pool?" "Yeah, I'm sure it'll be fine." "Sure you don't wanna put it back a few yards, so you can watch it without actually catchin' on fire?"
<WalrusKing> Not back, but jumps in to help anyways
<Tehpillowstar> Echo: Lavalamps in wooden houses in Minecraft
<Roget> Echo no, as in
<Roget> if you read the SCP-354 article, a guy talks about the red pool spreading underground
<Roget> growing
<Roget> its built on that
<Roget> the idea is built, to be clear
<Tehpillowstar> iirc it doesn't say that the red pool is spreading underground, just growing
<Roget> We took a liberal interpretation of it
<Echo> Oh yeah?
<Echo> Next thing you know
<Roget> But that's why shit happens, so you know. That's another rule behind the red pool
<Echo> You'll want to confiscate everyone's guns on site
<Echo> And give them free cell gas
<Echo> SOMEONE HAS TO PAY FOR IT
<WalrusKing> lol
<Echo> That's why no one can ever take it
<Tehpillowstar> I guess the problem behind that is that when you think about it, it doesn't make too logical sense.
<Echo> Roget's CellCare website can't stay up long enough to long in and requisition the stuff
<Echo> Thank him and his liberal interpretation of 354
<Echo> :|
<Tehpillowstar> Uhhhh so
<Tehpillowstar> What have we talked about so far?
<Echo> Uhhh
<WalrusKing> the dimensional anchor postulate
<Echo> Character interaction and development
<Echo> And how those can be improved
<Tehpillowstar> Yeah?
<Echo> Well, touches of the latter, here and there
<WalrusKing> at any rate, I think it should be noted that aside from acknowledging the problem, no real solution for the tone issue has been proposed.
<Echo> When I was going on with things you can do to get the concept toward newer players
<Echo> And old ones alike
<Snowshoe> just as an aside, since it seems like there's a break at the moment
<Snowshoe> do we want to move discussions like this to either the overflow room or poolpartyooc in the future?
<TheRaven> No
<Snowshoe> I get that we want people who might not normally be interested in the discussions involved, but these kinds of discussions do tend to dominate the OOC for hours at a time
<Gara> No.
<Tehpillowstar> Nah.
<Snowshoe> alrighty then
<Tehpillowstar> Moving such discussions usually just limits the people who can participate
<Tehpillowstar> Does someone remember/have the logs to what the original topics that we wanted to touch upon?
<WalrusKing> I also should point out that these logs should definitely be posted to the forums to allow people not on now to participate, and to keep this reaction at a simmer rather than taking it off the burner
<WalrusKing> Character Development, Character Depth/Realism, Setting/Character Immersion, Worldbuild/Depth