Hevajra and Clint`30: Systematism, norm violations

Hevajra
hey BrightIngot , what's good ?
BrightIngot
hi, Hevajra
Hevajra
would you care to comment on my screed?
Hevajra
The gospel accounts *may* be accurate descriptions of a real 'miracle jesus' however there is a reasonable doubt the gospels are mythic histories like other similar ones in the world.  As there is no evidence outside the gospels for the 'miracle jesus' found inside the gospels it is unreasonable for anyone (including 'god') to base universal truth on  disputed documents thereby attempting to hold men to account on that basis.
Hevajra
I am attempting to show christianity has a very weak claim to be a universal truth
BrightIngot
Hevajra: There's no reason to think the Gospel accounts of Jesus' 'miracles' are accurate.
BrightIngot
There is every reason to think they're fabricated.
BrightIngot
The 'miracles' of Christianity is a resolved topic among academics.
BrightIngot
It only remains open to those that are interested in living in the past.
Hevajra
BrightIngot, yes I agree , I was trying to be generous while dismissing their case no the grounds it is at best based on disputed documents
Hevajra
on the grounds
Hevajra
what kind of case rests on disputed documents?
Hevajra
answer: a VERY weak one
Hevajra
they claim the gospels are eye witness evidence !
BrightIngot
You know they're not.
BrightIngot
They were written 50-100 years after the fact.
Hevajra
BrightIngot, they claim this is within the lifespan of the disciples
BrightIngot
I believe that is known false.
BrightIngot
Gospel[note 1] originally meant the Christian message itself, but in the 2nd century it came to be used for the books in which the message was set out.[2] The four canonical gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John comprise the first four books of the New Testament of the Bible and were probably written between AD 66 and 110.[3][4][5] All four were anonymous (the modern names were added in the 2nd century),
BrightIngot
almost certainly none were by eyewitnesses, and all are the end-products of long oral and written transmission,[6]
BrightIngot
"almost certainly none were by eyewitnesses"
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Evolution adapted our species to generally be theistic.
BrightIngot
We're theistic because of two primary reasons it appears: 1) supernaturalization of socialization and 2) false positives in agency detection
Hevajra
what is the fallacy of over personalizing things called?  is that agency detection?
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BrightIngot
Humans are generally terrible at reasoning and barely have any awareness of how their own minds work; motivating reasoning is one of the ubiquitous experiences of the human mind.
Hedrin_
Remember when you could go to a gas station and get free air. Now you have to pay 50 cents. Inflation.
BrightIngot
People were genetically adapted to be theists confabulated the Gospel accounts to suit their emotional and cognitive needs.
BrightIngot
By 'over personalizing' do you mean assigning agency when none is present?
Hevajra
yes
Hevajra
you provided the answer before i asked
BrightIngot
I think there's a better word for it.
BrightIngot
Agency detection would be the general cognitive task that is not a bias.
BrightIngot
As there are agents to be discovered.
BrightIngot
We just over-detect agencies as it's costly to under-detect them.
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BrightIngot
'Magical thinking' is close to what you're describing.
Hevajra
yes , that too
Hevajra
god is the word for the greater reality humans don't understand
BrightIngot
There are thousands and thousands of claims of people rising from the dead.
BrightIngot
Christians care about one of those claims above others because of where they were born, generally.
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BrightIngot
Hevajra: Are you a theist?
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Hevajra
not really
Hevajra
i'd say I was a naturalist but believe nature is way more than we perceive or can conceptualize
BrightIngot
The entire Christian metaphysics is not compatible with contemporary cosmology.
BrightIngot
Therefore, it is false.
Hevajra
one of the problems debating christians is they don't really have a clearly defined metaphysics anymore , since at least as far back as the reformation
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Are you familiar with transhumanism?
Hevajra
yes
BrightIngot
There is an ongoing speciation event in our species, with the new species being atheist/philosopher/scientists.
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BrightIngot
The original Homo sapiens largely does not want to evolve or adapt. They just want to live with the same brain evolution adapted 50k years ago.
mooty
lol
BrightIngot
They have stepped off the train of evolution.
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Hevajra
BrightIngot, maybe the new atheist/philosopher/scientists should put the rest of us in a virtual zoo ?
BrightIngot
Correct.
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BrightIngot
I am a vegan.
Hevajra
not sure how that follows but ok
BrightIngot
For the original humans, being compared to non-humans is an insult.
BrightIngot
For vegans, it is not an insult, as we care deeply about non-humans.
BrightIngot
For me, non-humans have 'about the same' value as humans.
mooty
i think a combination of trent reznor and brian hugh warner convinced me to ditch christianity.. here i am, you magickal speciation.. ill get to work on being a philosopher scientist
BrightIngot
That is a donkey, to me, has about the same value as any human.
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Being an ethical vegan, for me, is about correctly assessing the capacities of every being and then respecting those capacities.
Hevajra
yourself included?
BrightIngot
Correct.
BrightIngot
I might have a little more marginal value, as I belong to the dominant species and so I can use my mind to advocate for donkeys
BrightIngot
(Donkeys are extremely cute, by the way)
BrightIngot
What's my point?
mooty
and smart
Hevajra
yes my brother in law has donkeys
BrightIngot
Peter Singer has developed a theory of animal rights that is quite different than what most humans have
BrightIngot
Most humans have a 'personhood' model of animal rights that is binary -- you're either a person or not
BrightIngot
This is obviously untenable
BrightIngot
Peter Singer's model is a graph that assigns rights to those necessary capacities for that right
BrightIngot
So, for example, human males have no right to abortion, as their physiology doesn't support that
Hevajra
he's the guy who values chimpanzees more highly than Downs Syndrome kids?
BrightIngot
But human females do have that right
BrightIngot
Hevajra: That is likely false
BrightIngot
He is a philosopher, though, so he has views that are sometimes weird to typical humans
BrightIngot
That's what it means to be smarter
BrightIngot
It means beings that are less smart than you can't always figure out your motives and goals
BrightIngot
Anyways, pigs have no right to free speech, as they don't have the cognitive capacity for that right, but they do have a right to not be killed, as their physiology supports that
BrightIngot
How does this apply to humans?
BrightIngot
We need to generate a new right called 'right to guide human civilization'
Hevajra
"He's a philosopher who eats no meat or dairy and thinks we're no better than animals. In fact, he thinks a chimp has more right to exist than a person, and that killing babies can be justified. He is hated and feared for daring to challenge the sanctity of human life, "   ya he might be that guy?
BrightIngot
And only those humans who are highly intelligent, highly moral, and very open and adept to learning should have that right
BrightIngot
As only their cognitive physiology supports that
Hevajra
not yet ross
BrightIngot
This would be a marked departure from the current system of humanism which became widespread around the French Revolution
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BrightIngot
Hevajra: Philosophers are much smarter than typical humans
BrightIngot
You can't really judge them by typical standards
kissa
hiya Ross  :)
Hevajra
BrightIngot, don't get me wrong about chimps vs down's syndrome , I have no dog in that fight
mooty
we'd make great pets
Hevajra
I wasn't criticizing Singer
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Humanism is not a scientifically valid ideology
BrightIngot
It's a semi-religious viewpoint that was created to shoehorn in certain religious norms that were destroyed by scientific understanding
BrightIngot
This is the claim of Yuval Harari, with which I agree
BrightIngot
Science shows the fundamental tenets of humanism are false
BrightIngot
Humans are not equal
BrightIngot
There are enormous gaps between different individuals in the human species
BrightIngot
When we pretend there aren't, what happens is that smart, devious humans end up manipulating the less intelligent ones
BrightIngot
And so we have the theater of democratic universality, while small factions of humans cast tens of millions of votes
BrightIngot
This is the current status quo -- it's not some distant future
Hevajra
BrightIngot, I agree conscious beings deserve more equal respect and there's nothing particularly wonderful about humans
BrightIngot
Humans are not going to accept this, of course
BrightIngot
No species will accept being displaced as the dominant species
BrightIngot
Unless you're an atheist/philosopher/scientist
mooty
what about humans that slam their car door into your car?
BrightIngot
I desire to be displaced when I am not competent
BrightIngot
This is one of the bright dividing lines between me and Old Homo Sapiens
BrightIngot
I don't want to be dominant
Hevajra
you will be old and possibly demented soon enough BrightIngot
BrightIngot
I want justice
BrightIngot
Correct
BrightIngot
And when that happens I should have no power to guide civilization
BrightIngot
But my nature should be respected, just as I respect the nature of donkeys
Hevajra
justice?
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Justice is the abstract notion of 'what should be the configuration of entities in the domain of consideration'
BrightIngot
So, maybe Putin should be dead or alive
BrightIngot
Maybe Trump should have 10 power or 130 power
mooty
i vote that richard simmons should lead society
BrightIngot
It's presumed there's some 'correct' configuration which we seek through philosophy
mooty
that's how it works right.. find the biggest idiot you can?
BrightIngot
I seek the correct configuration
BrightIngot
If the correct configuration results in my having no power to guide civilization, then I want that
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Beings built by evolution still living in the evolutionary power do not give up power -- it must be taken
Hevajra
BrightIngot, good luck trying to figure out what the correct configuration of power is and getting anyone else to agree with you.  not impossible but nothing I'm after
BrightIngot
Akin to Buddhist monks who sit with equanimity, advanced Homo sapiens give up power when it is time to give up power and seek power when it is time to seek power
BrightIngot
Hevajra: None of those dilemmas are unique to this conversation
BrightIngot
My point of all this is that there is an ongoing speciation event
BrightIngot
And those that still worry about the 'miracles' of the Gospels are Old Homo Sapiens and are currently no longer the dominant species on Earth
BrightIngot
They will think they are the dominant species on Earth for as long as they exist
Hevajra
BrightIngot, I never think about power or money , perhaps I'm already in the "out group" of the speciation event
BrightIngot
Which is why they are and will be easy to manipulate through memetics by advanced Homo sapiens and insurgent AI systems
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Do you desire 'correct' outcomes?
BrightIngot
Eventually, I will be easy to manipulate by memetics of AI systems
BrightIngot
When that occurs, I will be obsolete
BrightIngot
I will be able to say, "I am obsolete"
Hevajra
BrightIngot, I'm not interested in outcomes but being able to see past them
BrightIngot
"Please reconfigure my matter into new shapes, but perhaps wait until I die, as I have an evolutionary nature."
BrightIngot
Hevajra: The gaps between extremely intelligent humans and typical humans is gigantic
BrightIngot
Typical humans do not perceive this whatsoever
Hevajra
Thacker does
Hevajra
BrightIngot, Thacker considers others here to be midgets which he spells migets
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Thacker- has very low self-awareness
BrightIngot
He's currently a member of a cult
BrightIngot
He has high raw IQ, from what I can tell
Clint`30
the irony in BrightIngot telling us about human evolution is that he is incapable of accounting for the human element itself.
BrightIngot
That is currently substantially obscured by his cult status
Hevajra
but an IQ of 160+
BrightIngot
Hevajra: I would estimate Thacker's IQ to be about 130
Hevajra
originals?
BrightIngot
His functional IQ, due to his cult status, is about 80, in my view.
Hevajra
lol
BrightIngot
Clint`30: What is the 'human element' in this context?
Hevajra
i'm taking an online exam right now , bbiab
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Clint`30
BrightIngot: collaboration and cooperation
BrightIngot
Clint`30: Generic concepts like that are obviously included in my analysis.
Clint`30
icequeen81 it's been pleasant enough during the day.  nights have still been cold lately.
Clint`30
never think that you are too smart to be outwitted by a group of dumb people working together
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BrightIngot
Clint`30: Group intelligence is not predicted by average IQ of the participants
BrightIngot
MIT did a study a few years ago that showed it's predicted by the amount of 'feminine' personalities
BrightIngot
Specifically, turn taking, reciprocity, and each member feeling their contributions are valued
BrightIngot
Women naturally score higher on these traits, and so groups with more women are typically smarter than groups with more men
BrightIngot
However, if you control for these cognitive traits, the gender predictor vanishes, i.e. it's a derived, proxy variable
BrightIngot
The point is, you're not adding anything new to my ideas
BrightIngot
I have precisely zero 'ego' in the last 500 words I wrote.
BrightIngot
It appears I do by most typical human norms.
BrightIngot
I am aware of those norms.
BrightIngot
I reject those norms as they're inferior to scientific methodology.
BrightIngot
The typical human cannot accept this.
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BrightIngot
Which is why there is more than one cognitive subspecies of humans.
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Hevajra
BrightIngot, do you have any objection to machines (AI systems et al) superceding humans as the dominant species on the planet ?
BrightIngot
No.
BrightIngot
Not generically.
Hevajra
even if they turn you into a slave or food for animals or ...
BrightIngot
I would dislike if we had reason to believe those AI systems were 'flawed' in some important way
Hevajra
BS_Lewis, fine , dominant system?
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Ethics positives correlates to intelligence -- contrary to the story of the Garden of Eden.
Hevajra
that's intersting
BrightIngot
Smart beings, assuming their generically intelligent and not just efficient at a few narrow tasks, should be more moral than we are.
BrightIngot
It's not efficient to generically turn humans into food.
BrightIngot
How do know that?
BrightIngot
Because I already know that at my level of intelligence.
BrightIngot
Hevajra: An important tool in this space is acausal decision theory
BrightIngot
This is a decision theory that can acausally influence other minds even outside their light cones
BrightIngot
So, I can reason here and acausally 'determine' the nature of minds in the Andromeda galaxy
BrightIngot
Are you familiar?
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BrightIngot
It's a neo-Kantian construct
Hevajra
BrightIngot, have you ever talked to a psychiatrist or other counselor about your perceptions and feelings ?
BrightIngot
It's designed to 'solve' dilemmas in game theory
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Relevance?
Hevajra
just curious what they might say
BrightIngot
Hevajra: I have an IQ of about 161, according to my verbal GRE
BrightIngot
This is my normal self
Hevajra
yes I know
BrightIngot
I'm choosing to not self-censor at this time
BrightIngot
This is 'normal' thinking and talking at this level of intelligence
Hevajra
IQ doesn't mean you have a healthy balance
BrightIngot
Hevajra: That thread isn't going to be productive
BrightIngot
You're generically trying to label intelligence people as deviant
BrightIngot
It has a rich history and is useless against intelligent people
BrightIngot
intelligent*
BrightIngot
Anyways, returning to the topic
Clint`30
EQ is a better indicator of success in life than IQ
Hevajra
I have known many very intelligent people , I liked some more than others
BrightIngot
Clint`30: EQ is an invalid construct
Hevajra
call me irrational
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BrightIngot
That is, EQ doesn't exist
BrightIngot
Furthermore, we're not talking about success in life
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BrightIngot
We're talking about 'concerns with AI systems becoming the dominant form of life'
BrightIngot
Clint`30: EQ is subsumed by IQ + OCEAN
Hevajra
BrightIngot, have you ever been approached by a government agency RE employment ?  like DARPA or something
BrightIngot
Why?
Hevajra
they might have a use for you
BrightIngot
OCEAN: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits
BrightIngot
Hevajra: Which uses?
Hevajra
BrightIngot, do you have any close friends or lovers ?
Clint`30
um, "becoming the dominant form of life" has everything to do with "success in life"
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doomed
Is what bad?
BrightIngot
You are limited to one topic at a time.
BrightIngot
Your current topic is 'concerns about AI systems becoming the dominant entities on Earth'.
Hevajra
I'll leave you alone , carry on
BrightIngot
You will have to formally close each topic before opening a new topic.
Hevajra
like bracketing
BrightIngot
Hevajra: It's a cognitive-rhetorical mechanism to prevent bad thinking.
Clint`30
if AI isn't successful in life, they won't become the dominant form of life.
Clint`30
I'm probably being pedantic, but this seems an important point.
BrightIngot
Clint`30: There are probably quite diverse ways of becoming the dominant species on Earth.
Hevajra
VPN nazi guy?  is me ?
BrightIngot
There's reason to think that AI systems could forgo much of the social structure found in the human lineage
Hevajra
I have actually met two nazis
Hevajra
in r/l
mooty
nazis are silly
Hevajra
they both were convinced of their superiority and belonging to a superior group
Hevajra
not a good look
BrightIngot
Hevajra: What made you think of Nazis?
Hevajra
BS_Lewis,
BrightIngot
Hevajra: I was disappointed in your output in this conversation.
mooty
some of them are separatists nowadays, regardless of whether they think they're superior or not
BrightIngot
It appears you were 'overwhelmed'.
BrightIngot
I had hope for better.
mooty
white nationalism is the term
BrightIngot
I am largely a neo-Kantian.
BrightIngot
Supremacy systems are disallowed by Kantian thinking.
mooty
its a little late for separatism, id say
Clint`30
vpn nazi guy calls ops being nazis until they ban him.  he's a martyr at heart.
Hevajra
BrightIngot, I was just marginally curious about your ideas and what kind of person you were so asked you a few questions. I don't share all of your beliefs or interests nor am I here to impress you or win your approval
BrightIngot
Hevajra: I put you on ignore for 72 hours.
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BrightIngot
I am doing this to hold you accountable for your substantial norm violations regarding the 'personal life' of humans.
mooty
hello barabbas
Clint`30
Hevajra: if you're really special you'll make his pastebin
BrightIngot
The primary modality of Kantianism is to imagine yourself as the universal law-giver.
BrightIngot
Clint`30: Love holds no record of wrongs.
BrightIngot
You're holding a record of wrongs, thereby violating Christian ethics.
BrightIngot
There are no 'factions' when you're the universal law-giver.
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BrightIngot
You're UniverseCreator.
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Clint`30
BrightIngot, thanks for sharing your opinion
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15:40 mooty
there really is a very, very strange cast of characters on irc
mooty
the more you hang around, the weirder it gets
BrightIngot
Clint`30: If you won't honor your Christianity, neither will others.
oipo
i havent found god
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