MAPS irl episode 2

[intro music]

Finlay: Alright, everyone.  Welcome to the second episode of the MAPs irl podcast.  My name is Finlay and I am here with Peace -

Peace: Hello!

Finlay: - and Murr -

Murr: Hi hi hello!

Finlay: - from the first episode, as well as Vyahdis -

Vyahdis: Hello.

Finlay:  - who was part of the Juicebox podcast which we will talk about in this episode, as well as Melon -

Melon: Hello.

Finlay: - who was with us at the symposium that we talked about in the last episode.  So I thought we could perhaps begin this episode by talking a bit more about the symposium because we got a few comments requesting if we could talk a bit more about it.  Melon, would you like to share your experience of the symposium?

Melon: Yeah, sure.  So, my big take-away, I'll just start with that - start at the end, that's a good way to go.  My big take-away was from when we were all sitting in a room together and looking around at everyone and just seeing how normal everyone looked and how, like-- I already knew that we were all just normal people, but it was really nice to just be in a room with a bunch of other people like me and seeing that was great.

Murr: Well I mean, if we listen to the stereotypes that we're forced to pay attention to, we expect a bunch of people who look like terrifying.

Melon: Mm-hm, yeah, absolutely.  So it's just great to have that sort of validation.  But I really liked the actual symposium part of it as well, getting to hear everybody's research, and I remember a lot of that was really interesting.  The two students who talked about how they were doing research on people who are going to become mental health professionals and their knowledge about MAPs and how limited that was, I thought that was really great look into people who are going to become mental health professionals' heads and sorta helped to address some of the problems that there are there.  I think everyone in the room, all the researchers, sort of were thinking after that that they wanted to see a similar study at whatever schools they're from.  I remember thinking--

Murr: Did you have--

Melon: What?

Murr: I'm sorry, did you have any interesting one-on-one conversations with any specific researchers?

Melon: Um, I did a bit.  Let's see, there was a woman who was from a Unitarian Universalist church and she was talking about how she was trying to incorporate talking about MAPs into their sex ed thing and I thought that was fantastic, and I have posted about it on VoA [Visions of Alice] before that I used to attend a Unitarian Universalist church and I would just really love to see that community become more supportive of us.

Murr: You know, I never thought a church would be very invested in this conversation, that's super interesting.

Melon: Well, they were really active in pushing for gay marriage as well.  It's not exactly a normal church.

Murr: Yeah, let's reel it back to some MAP shit though. [laughs]

Melon: Yeah, we should.  That was a super weird tangent we could probably--

Murr: We can probably get into like Christian theory and other-- that's another podcast we'll have to have later.

Melon: [laughs] That's a different podcast, yeah.

Finlay: So to involve Vy a little bit, Vy, if I may ask, hearing about the symposium, could you ever imagine attending something like that if you could?

Vyahdis: Um, I don't know.  The thing is I would like to do something like that but there are other issues, like with me personally it would probably be hard.  Not-- I mean, it would be cool interacting with other MAPs but I have other-- I'm comfortable talking about it, but I have some mental stuff that makes it hard for me to deal with lots of people in crowds, so that in itself would be kinda a challenge.

Murr: I don't know your level of need but I do wanna say--

Vyahdis: Yes?

Murr: It was not a crowd. [laughs] There were not many of us, and in the next workshop it's going to be even less.

Vyahdis: Oh.

Peace: Probably, yeah.

Murr: I'll just FaceTime you.

Vyahdis: Where was the symposium held again?

Murr: We are not gonna go into that on this podcast.

Finlay: That's public information, like Baltimore is where it is.

Peace: Yeah, it's in Baltimore 'cause that's where B4U-ACT is located at.

Vyahdis: Oh, okay.

Finlay: And I guess some of our audience might consider going to the symposium, so perhaps we could talk a bit about-- like, I mean it's not difficult.  If you want to go to the symposium, you just go to the website of B4U-ACT, just type into your search engine "B4U-ACT," and if there is a symposium then you'll see a button to register, or a workshop, and the next one will be this April.

Peace: Yep.

Finlay: And yeah, when you register as a MAP you don't have to pay anything and I guess... what else?  Then you'll get an e-mail and someone will check if you're, like...

Murr: Legit.

Finlay: Like talk with you a bit to make sure you're really a MAP and not someone who's maybe hostile to MAPs who would try to disturb the conference.  And that's basically all there is, then you get the address.  Of course maybe you'll need to book a room there, but for example me and Peace could sleep in another MAP's room so yeah.  And the food, there is lunch.

Melon: Yeah, it was very accomodating and I think also they made it clear that there was a lot of effort put into make sure that all the MAPs were safe and anonymity was preserved.

Vyahdis: Well that sounds... I mean, I would like to do something like that, even with all that said it would just be... Like I said, the mental health stuff, but you said it wasn't like a big crowd, and also money would be a money, like getting a flight down to Baltimore, but yeah I would like to do something like that eventually.  Just...

Murr: Maybe in the future.

Finlay: Like just the experience-- like I went there twice and both times it was just opening the door and seeing a table with MAPs and the second time like so many young MAPs... That's just an incredible moment.

Vyahdis: I-- Yeah, I can't imagine it.  Just... I'm just used to talking to MAPs on the computer but I can't imagine what it would be meeting any let alone three or four face-to-face, that would be crazy.

Murr: You've never met any?

Vyahdis: No.

Murr: Oh lord... I guess that's where we all were for a very long time.

Melon: I mean, just until before the symposium, but...

Murr: Really?  That was your first time meeting another MAP in person?

Melon: Yeah, yeah, I talked to another MAP for awhile who I actually met for the firs time at the symposium, but yeah, no, I hadn't actually met anyone in person.

Finlay: But I mean, of course we've all met other MAPs since we were like very young, just not openly MAPs.

Melon: Yeah, of course. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.

Murr: No, we're literally the only ones.

Melon: [laughs]

Vyahdis: Yeah.

Finlay: Another thing I wanted to mention, this feeling - at least I had - during the symposium, just entering the room and then in the morning and then sitting at a table and thinking about talking with other people and it's like somehow you have so much you think about maybe you would want to talk about and it's so much that sometimes you don't have any words. [laughs] You don't say anything.

Melon: Absolutely.

Vyahdis: Well, can I ask a question?

Murr: Yeah.

Vyahdis: Like when--

Melon: No.

Vyahdis: [laughs] Like what, when you met individual MAPs, just what type of stuff would you talk about really, kind of political-ish stuff or would you talk about more personal like experiences?

Murr: Well, as someone who was one of the first people at the table, it was actually me, Peace, Richard, and one older gentleman that were the first people there.  The first conversation I came up was I looked at Peace's lanyard and said, "So, you like anime?" [laughs]

Vyahdis: [laughs]

Murr: And that was so much of the entire time, was mostly us just like bullshitting.

Melon: There was at one point during the first night when we were all getting together, we were just sharing our stories, but we started to slip into a political discussion - I forget which one it was, I don't remember if it was age of consent reform, I don't remember if it was, you know, one of the many other issues - but it was something like that and we then scheduled Sunday as the day that we would all talk about whatever that was.  But we never actually got around to doing that, which I felt a little sad about.  I kinda was interested in getting into those sort of debates.

Murr: I think that those debates are really exciting but also I feel like, especially if it's your first time meeting people in your community, it's probably not the best to fight.  Because it would've been a fight.

Melon: That's-- yeah.

Finlay: Like both times I was very-- like I had to fear that maybe MAPs would argue all the time about controversial stuff and we wouldn't use the time to just share the time together and have a fun time.  I would say both times I was very happy that most of the times we didn't argue with each other.

Peace: Can I say I-- like but I understand why people would want to do that.  Because a lot of times when people speak with other people about that kind of stuff, especially online, it ends up with them like defending themselves instead of talking about the ideas.  And so when you're with a bunch of other MAPs and you're allowed to kind of have these discussions and start engaging with basic questions about society and stuff, that kinda... You know what I mean?

All: Yeah.

Murr: Yeah, no, absolutely.  And truthfully, I know.  As I said when we were off conversation, I very much identify with and prescribe with the - and again, this term is becoming dated and kind of out of the loop, but - NOMAP world.  And before coming to the symposium, I never met anybody else that wasn't exactly on my political spectrum with this conversation, like I was actually in a Discord group where if you said anything that wasn't specifically about that, you would instantly be kicked out.  So I thought that's how our community thrived and there was good ones and bad ones.  And going to the symposium was like "oh my god, we're all complex human beings with different beliefs and different identities, but we still all care in the same way."  You know?  And it was so humanizing because for so long it was so polarized by internet speak.

Peace: Yeah, it's like a very false dichotomy of against or for and so it ends up very just like "this person is this, that person is that" and so a lot of times actual discussions don't end up happening, there's just arguments.  And so when you're in a room with other people and you can have discussions... Almost like conscious-raising groups where we start talking about how all the same kinds of things happen to us, we feel similar things, it kinda makes you wanna keep talking about it even when it gets into a little bit of hot water.

Murr: Because you care about that person then.

Peace: Yes.

Melon: Yeah, it's just great to hear about other people's stories, too, and kinda get to know them a little better and that way.  [laughing] We spent so much time telling stories, but it was all great, there was always more to tell.

Vyahdis: I think I would really-- If I did go to one, what I'd really like to do is just get to know other MAPs because I don't any and I really just interact with a small circle anyway.  So I can kinda feel isolated a lot and that sucks.

Finlay: Yeah, I mean, I've met last week or two weeks ago a MAP from my city, like he lives in my city and he's around my age and just-- I found him on an English-speaking Discord server for MAPs.  Totally unexpected and after years of trying to find MAPs in my region.  And so perhaps this could be something if you haven't tried to find other MAPs in your region, I mean I don't know, perhaps you won't have as much luck as I, but I don't know.

Melon: It's also difficult because we all want to protect our anonymity so well.

Murr: You can always be anonymous in like a pair.  Like... [laughs] You know what you do?  You just say that you're dating and just live your life.

Melon: Oh, oh, well yeah, if you're meeting up with someone then there's that, but if you're just reaching out and connecting with another person, you're never sure if they're, y'know, genuine or if they're trying to get you or whatever.  You know, 'cause there are people out there who try to prey on MAPs and that's an unfortunate truth.

Vyahdis: Oh yeah, a lot of people.

Finlay: Yeah, but on the other hand I think it's... Online it's a bit more difficult, but still I think people who try to I guess catch MAPs by acting as if they were MAPs themselves, usually you can detect from how they use language if they are MAPs or not.

Vyahdis: Yeah.

Murr: [at the same time as Peace] Oh, hello fellow MAPs!

Peace: [at the same time as Murr] How do you do, fellow MAPs?

Murr, Peace, and Finlay: [laugh]

Vyahdis: We actually had an issue with someone like that on my Discord, they're kinda notorious, they go to different MAP servers and they seem really genuine but they're actually an anti.  I'm not gonna name-drop them, but the person is kinda semi-well known, but they go to different forums and they're an anti but they masquerade as a MAP.

Murr: That's so much effort into hating a group of people.

Vyahdis: Yeah, they just doxx-- the person doxxes people and other stuff.

Finlay: I mean before you meet a MAP you should probably first voice-chat and get to know each other, like write a bit about yourself instead of just, "oh, you're in my region, so let's meet," that would be...

Murr: I stand by that with meeting anybody online, period blank.

All: Yeah.

Melon: That's true.

Murr: It's almost like we're people! [laughs]

Melon: Yeah.  Yeah.

Vyahdis: No, I'm just a bunch of ones and zeroes.

Murr: [laughs] The Matrix right here.

Vyahdis: I'm a Vyahdis algorithim.

Finlay: So Vy, would you like to talk about The Juicebox podcast?

Vyahdis: Oh, sure, sure, absolutely.  The Juicebox, it wasn't intially "The Juicebox," before I joined it was called "The Audiophiles."  It was Stanza and Tex, it was just them and someone else, but he left after the second episode.  But I had a big kinda awakening moment because I had been - this is all relevant, it's gonna tie in - but I had known about being a MAP for like eleven years, but I went through a phase where I was very depressed and I came out to one of my best friends of fifteen years, and I just said, "I need to tell you something," and he said, "You can tell me anything."  And I told him and he said, "I'm sorry, I just can't associate with you anymore."  And we had-- we were big nerds, we always wanted to do this graphic novel and we'd finally found an artist and we had pages and he said, "I can't work with you anymore, I don't wanna talk to you," and he just completely disavowed me and I was so crushed and I think it was at that time I really tried seeking people out.  I went to 8chan, they used to have a MAP board, /hebe/, and that's where I saw Stanza and Tex, their podcast, and I thought just to contact them and say, "Hey, I'm a MAP, I'm pretty old and I've had experiences in my life and I'd like to maybe talk on your podcast."  And from there I started talking with them and yeah.
We just started off, we were still The Audiohiles but eventually at some point we became The Juicebox and it was a very interesting experience, it was fun but it also was stressful in its own way because we would think about different topics each week to discuss.  And intially our feedback was positive, but after about the second episode we started getting lots of trolls and the Kiwifarms started mass-reporting our podcast episodes and I think after our fifth or fourth episode our channel got taken down.  But by the third or fourth episode it was just me and Stanza because Tex had to leave due to school stuff and Mitch sorta disappeared for awhile, he's also known as Cartographer on YouTube. But like I said, it was from late 2015 to sorta mid-2016 and it evolved a lot over the extent of the show, the run - yeah, that's the word I'm looking for.  But yeah, we would look for different relevant articles about MAPs or stuff that had happened with pedophiles and we would talk about that or we would just take a different-- not a different, but a subject and we would discuss it and we would find try to find famous MAPs in history or people that had been minor-attracted or had a... Lemme get some water, I'm sorry.
But yeah, our big goal, really the whole reason we did the podcast, we listened to The Pedologues [another MAP podcast] and something else, I feel bad that I can't remember the name.  Our big goal, I guess it was different for them, was we wanted to provide a show that MAPs could listen to and they could just feel like, "These guys are MAPs, too," and we're just talking about subjects and cutting up and we tried doing streams.  We wanted to show people that MAPs, yeah, they're normal, they do stuff like play video games and just joke and chat because the media in general, unfortunately it has this idea of like pedos and MAPs or whatever, they just see them as these evil monsters.  It hasn't really evolved that much, I think, in the mainstream media and we wanted MAPs to see that but we also kinda hoped that non-MAPs and possibly antis would see this and realize, "hey, these guys, they aren't monsters."  And that kind of actually did work, we got more positivity than we expected intially and overall.  So that was very great and surprising, seeing that, like we had non-MAPs going, "hey, I'm not like you and I'm never going to be, but I totally-- I understand and see your plight now," and that was really, that was incredible seeing people say stuff like that just in our comments.  That was great, stuff like that really made it worth it, doing the podcast.  I mean, we loved doing it, but a lot of times we would just think, "well, should we keep doing this, is this a good idea?" but yeah, I don't regret my time on the podcast at all.

Finlay: I just wanted to say that The Juicebox podcast is basically my main inspiration for having had the idea to make this podcast.

Vyahdis: Awwww.

Finlay: Like when I was eighteen, it just meant the world to me, when I-- I don't know how I found it, but the first thing I guess I watched that had to do with The Juicebox podcast was I think a livestream with Tex and others from the podcast, like he played [the video game] Amnesia.

Vyahdis: I remember that!

Finlay: And like you were like joking and it was--

Vyahdis: Can I say something?  I'm very sorry for cutting you off.  Continue.

Finlay: It's okay.

Vyahdis: It's just I remember that night very, very well because I went on this hayride thing with my sister and my nephew and I came back and I was really excited and I said, "Guys, I saw the most beautiful girl when I was at the hayride, she took my breath away."  And we talked about it because we would always, if we saw a really pretty girl, we would always talk about it.  And we were just talking then Tex started streaming Amnesia but I was kinda a bit taken from that for about half an hour and I just had to keep talking about it.  But I remember that night very well, that was a good Halloween.

Finlay: Yeah, I mean it was the first time I guess that I had heard other MAPs, and also young MAPs, you were like joking and stuff and it was just so I guess radical for me.  I had never even I guess dared to think about the possibility that MAPs could spend time together and have fun, so it was unbelievable. [laughs] I really hope that this podcast can also be or become such a community like The Juicebox were.

Murr: Well I think all MAP media, because of how young of a community we are, have one goal in mind and that is representation because it's literally like you have to start somewhere.  And I know we talked about this a lot on the last one, but in general like you came at it because you wanted people to see us as humans, we're coming at it because we want people to see us as humans, and everything that's come by MAPs for MAPs is-- that's our goal.  That's everyone's goal!

Peace: And I think maybe kinda also to provide our community with some kind of culture or heritage as well, something to kind of come behind and support and like stuff like that.

Vyahdis: Yeah.

Murr: Because we really don't have much that isn't behind paywalls, as you said before.

Peace: Yes.

Vyahdis: What I would really like to see, though-- I think our big problem is there's a lot of fragmentation in the community.  If we want to succeed at all, we should join together more, but at the same time what I would like to see is the normalization of MAPs.  Like we use that term and label now but I would like to see the future where people go, "oh yeah, this person is just normal," we could just be part of the norm, I guess.  For a long time people didn't view gay or the LGBT community as that but now they've become more normalized, which is a very good thing and I would like to see that for the MAP community eventually.  That's my dream, I guess.

Peace: And I think even not if-- Like maybe we're not normal, like I don't really care if I'm normal or not, but to be able to connect with each other and to be out in public and talk about these things and maybe be accepted a little bit.

Vyahdis: Yes.

Murr: I think a lot of people, their concept of "normal" is so casual?  Like "normal" doesn't mean like, "oh, everybody in the world knows your identity and everyone's high-fiving you all the time for it."  "Normal" is just living in your own skin.  Like we're not the same as the LGBTQ community, we're not the same as teliophiles, we're not the same as any of these groups, we're our own individual group and we have our own version of what "normal" is, and that should just be respected.

Vyahdis: Yeah, respect I would like, just respect.  That would be a very big thing.  Like I'm so used to talking to MAPs on Discord and on the internet, but then when I go out in public, when I talk to other people somewhere else, just anywhere, you can't mention anything MAP at all or even suggest that you're in any way attracted to minors or they get really-- just really angry and defensive, they think, "oh, this person's a monster."

Murr: Do it when you're drunk.  People are more understanding and accepting when you're drunk. [laughing] You just drop that you're a MAP when everyone's drunk, and everyone goes, "you're so strong!" [laughs] That was a joke, I promise.

Peace: Something else I wanted to bring up.  One thing that I started thinking about, and I really thought about it because I was doing an interview with somebody and they asked kinda like how I dealt with stigma.  And like you know how people say stuff about MAPs or whatever, they're coming from this is the view of society and so one thing I think about a lot is kind of thinking about and asking questions about society and figuring out how power works in society and how people in charge get to define things and so... 'Cause when I think about how things got the way they are, then you start thinking about how they can be undone, y'know what I mean?

Melon: Yeah.  One of my big things I would like to see on the side of acceptance is just people around me and people who I know, y'know, if I'm walking in the mall with my sister or something and her nudging me every so often and pointing at some cute girl, trying to get me or suggesting some girl is cute.  Or my mom trying to introduce me to a friend of hers and saying, "Oh, you know she has a cute daughter."  Small things like those, those sort of small interactions, that would really go a lot way to making me feel more accepted.

Murr: But I think that's just generally how open you are about sexuality as a whole, because truthfully speaking I don't wanna walk down the street and have anybody go, "Hey Murr, isn't that guy your type?"  Like, shit like--

Melon: Oh, they used to do that anyway, so. [laughs]

Murr: That's true. [laughs] I forgot.

Peace: You want them to do it to the right people.

Melon: Right, yeah, yeah.  It's just... yeah.  And just generally I know I've seen a lot of people, I know a lot of smart people who I've seen both on YouTube who are talking about pedophilia or people I know in person... When you start talking about minor-attraction, their eyes just sort of glaze over and the very smart people become immediately filled with blinding hate of you know, "Oh no, that's bad," and it would just be nice to see people think about these things and talk about them in a normal and rational way.  That's something I would really like to see as well.

Vyahdis: Yeah, it's--

Murr: It's a fear response.

Melon: It is, absolutely, yeah.

Murr: What were you saying, Vy?

Vyahdis: I was just saying I was agreeing with him.

Melon: Oh, and an excellent example was I think we brought it up earlier but maybe it was cut out.  Vyahdis was talking about how he knew somebody who said, "Oh, you can tell me about anything," and then you say you're a MAP and then they just sort of, you know, apparently not, apparently you couldn't tell them about anything.  And I've heard that story from a number of people, I know Gary [Gibson] had that same story and it's just a really sad thing to hear.

Vyahdis: Yeah, it's like you can tell, people are okay with-- I mean I'm not saying you shouldn't be okay with certain things given the circumstances, but people I notice in general they're more cool, like if I said I murdered somebody in cold blood and went to prison for X amount of years, they would be more okay with that than if I said, "Yeah, I'm minor-attracted."  I just noticed for some reason being minor-attracted is just the most heavily stigmatized thing.

Murr: As someone who works in a restaurant with people who have murdered people, I agree with you. [laughs] Like it's true, and it's so sad because like we're literally not harming anybody.  We're just not.

Peace: Have you ever noticed that minor-attraction is very much a lot of times compared to murder in ways that like-- They talk about how we have "urges," kind of like how people get urges to kill people?  And I've never heard any other sexuality talked about in terms of "urges" like that.

Vyahdis: Yeah, we...

Murr: It just-- Do you wanna go?

Vyahdis: No it's fine, you go.

Murr: I was just gonna say like, literally whenever I hear the word "urges," my brain just shuts off.  Like I'm just like I don't even-- whatever you have to say after this is invalid, because I'm not a wild animal.

Melon: Absolutely, yeah.  I feel bad for people who seem to relate with that in some way and sorta get taken in and do go into therapy wanting to change their sexuality because they're afraid of getting an urge or whatever and it's just like... It's just very unfortunate to hear about people who--

Murr: I don't think I talked about this on the last episode, but I did go to trans and gay conversion therapy--

Melon: Oh!

Murr: That shit doesn't work.  Oh, my parents were wild, it's a different story for a different time.  But so I went through those things, and I gotta say one thing: they don't work, and you're just gonna hurt yourself more.  And like I don't wanna see people in our community hurting ourselves, regardless of how they're doing it.

Peace: 'Cause I think a lot of them are just kind of lost in an understanding of themselves and their position in society that is based entirely off of what they hear in mainstream media, what the medical model says, and the kind of shit that's said about them online, because that's all that society is gonna give them.  So unless they find like good MAP spaces or compassionate people, that's what they're gonna get.  And they might as well go on thinking that way if that's all that's told to them.

Murr: Yeah, true.

Peace: Over and over, "go to therapy," everyone always says "go to therapy," then when people go to therapy and they say, "okay, my therapist is okay with me," people are still upset because it wasn't about going to therapy!  It was about not being a MAP.

Melon: When I came out to my parents, they forced me to go to therapy and I found a therapist actually at my university and I talked to her a bit and she asked me the one question: "What do you want to get out of this?"  And I never came back after that because I realized I didn't want anything out of this, I was just there because my parents had told me to go to therapy.  But yes, that's just a very important question that I think could easily not be thought of.  If you realize you're a MAP and your instinct is to go to therapy, ask yourself why, what do you want to get out of therapy, why are you going to therapy?

Vyahdis: Yeah.

Murr: Like literally anything.

Melon:'Cause there are legitimate reasons for some people, but for many people there might not be.

Vyahdis: One person I did come out to, they demanded that I go to therapy and I said, "I'm already in therapy."  And they said, "Well, what does your therapist think?" and I said, "well, I mean, they're mostly okay with stuff, they're more worried about other aspects of me," and then the person blocked me after that, but yeah.  That was fun.

Murr: I love telling antis that I'm already in therapy and my therapist loves me. [laughs]

Peace: It's because you're not therapy-ing hard enough, you need to do more!  More and more and more until they're satisfied.

Murr: I actually wanna say this, my therapist, we were talking about it last night, my therapist might actually go to the symposium next year because of how excited having me as a person in his practice got him in MAP issues.  So that's really cool.

Melon: Yeah, that's awesome.  I know there was-- I remember someone at the symposium who I believe said that they were a therapist and they didn't know much about MAPs so that was the reason why they had to come, and it was just awesome to see somebody who's maybe not already in the folds of doing research about MAPs and working with MAPs sort of becoming acquainted with that.  I think it's a really great oppurtunity for mental health professionals in general to go to an event like that.

Peace: Yeah, 'cause I want people to ask questions and think about where their information is coming from and how they got to the conclusions that they did because a lot of stuff kinda falls apart once you start doing that, once you stop relying on caricatures of MAPs.

Melon: Absolutely, yeah.

Finlay: For me, the thing was when I was like eleven or twelve and started reading about minor-attraction online, I got mostly-- there's this German therapy for MAPs called Dunkelfeld, and basically it's supposed to be a therapy program for MAPs who are afraid of breaking laws.  And I'm sure it can help some MAPs, but for me when I was eleven, twelve, all I heard was like-- I mean, the language for me all it sounded like was, "you are a ticking time bomb," so it was like anti-therapy for me.  I was confused before I read what they wrote, but then I believed that I'm ill and I'm maybe dangerous or when I'm older then I will be dangerous, so I got really depressed and that's such a messed-up thing, that young MAPs can get depressed, like really depressed, I was really depressed, by programs who apparently are intended to help at least some MAPs.  And I think that needs to change, that therapy programs should not be designed in a way that young MAPs get depressed and think terrible things about themselves.  I think therapy programs should be more clear in their language.

Melon: Yeah, yeah.  And it's not only about how they, uh, the message that they send to young MAPs who, you know, are trying to... who could not be in a worse situation, who are just coming to grips with their identity and what that means, but also just the message it sends to everyone else, that these people are sick and that they need to be treated or else they will-- like you said, they're a ticking time bomb and they might go out and rape someone.  That message in general, I think, although I understand that it can do some good, 'cause there are people who need that, but I think that it probably does more harm than good, unfortunately.

Finlay: Like, I've never been to therapy, but I guess the most beneficial thing for me in terms of mental health has been to talk and communicate with other MAPs.

Peace: Yeah, and can I link that to what we were talking about earlier with the podcast?

Murr: Totally.

Peace: In terms of MAPs getting their voices out there and not... and maybe-- so like a lot of MAPs do it because they wanna educate people, which is very good because a lot of the "education" - air quotes - out there is based entirely off of-- about sex offenders and stuff.  And I think another thing is that it can help MAPs begin the process of thinking more about themselves and their process in life, 'cause like when you first kind of experience it, the feelings are very overwhelming and you're realizing this and you feel like you have a lot of work to do and a lot to figure out.  But you don't have any easy way to figure it out, like maybe you don't have other people that you can figure it out with, and so you feel like you have to go completely on your own but you don't, and when MAPs start talking more with each other and can start to learn things from each other, they can kinda step outside what's permitted by the rest of society, like teliophilic society, and that's something that I really think is beneficial when we're talking about MAPs making things and getting their voices out there.

Melon: Well--

Murr: Also on top of that-- I'm sorry, you can go.

Melon: Oh, well, it's also just... I know it's absolutely terrifying.  I remember that, that wasn't too long ago for me, you know, jumping out into the community and talking to other MAPs, even, you know-- I was posting on VoA, my introduction post, and I remember I think I wrote it, I might've waited a day, pacing back and forth in my room deciding whether or not I wanted to actually [laughing] make that post.  And my heart was probably pumping at three hundred beats per minute or whatever. [laughs] And I know, it's just absolutely terrifying because you're so afraid of how people would treat us if they knew and we have to throw up those barriers and remain anonymous as much as possible.

Murr: It's so frustrating how anonymous our community has to be, I totally understand why we are, but it just adds to the stigma.  But I know there's no way to detract from it without one of us dying a martyr.  Like... [laughs]

Melon: Yeah, well, and it's not that people haven't died, people get talked into suicide every day.

Murr: I know I talked about this before, but that-- as a person who is a MAP who is in a relationship, though, I feel that that was one thing as a little kid who was just coming to terms with my sexuality that was so weird.  Because like I refused to allow myself to identify this way because I liked to date people, that's just 'cause I'm a social butterfly, though, that has nothing to do with my sex life.  And there's that thing as a little kid when you're understanding your sexual identity and so on and so forth, that you just feel like you're going to be on the outskirts of society the entire time, and I feel that's what this podcast can do and what us as individuals can do, because we're not on the outskirts of society, most of us, like most of us are college students and partners and I know some that are even married or parents and things like that.

Finlay: I just wanted to say, many of us aren't on the outskirts of society, but those that maybe are in some way, they don't have to blame themselves.

Vyahdis: I am.

Murr: And we love you. [laughs]

Finlay: Like it's so understandable that when you have so much discrimination, that you're perhaps not like, I don't know, become a billionare or whatever regular society thinks counts as quote-unquote "successful."

Vyahdis: Yeah.  I'm pretty much, I'm the person on the outskirts that's like a hermit crab, I just stay in my shell.

Melon: I'm not particularly social either, actually. [laughs]

Murr: Oh, well, damn. [laughs]

Melon: Yeah, oh well.

Murr: I guess I'm talking to myself.

Melon: Yeah. [laughs] But I know people who are and I know MAPs who are as well, besides just you.

Murr: Well again, and I think it has to do with being raised with being told that you're not allowed to be a part of society makes you kinda not wanna join a party that's not gonna want you there anyway.

Peace: Yeah, it's kinda of like--

Melon: Absolutely.

Peace: I think one of the things maybe that I've kinda learned more in this community is kind of how to love and trust people a little bit more?

Vyahdis: Oh yeah, that's hard for me. [laughs] Oh, dear.

Peace: One of the things my therapist has told me again and again is "No one deserves your story."  So it's okay to keep that part of yourself hidden and only disclose it to people who you feel are worthy of knowing that about you.

Murr: I do also want to bring up the fact that we are all MAPs coming from places of privilege.  We might not be rich, we might not be famous, we might not be doing all those things, but we are privileged enough to have access to therapy and access to the internet and access to communities that are here for us, you know?  Like it's a weird thing to say, a lot of MAPs can't get therapy and a lot of MAPs, especially in other, like deeper minority communities, there are so many other stigmas and so many different things that these representational things aren't even getting to.  This is a small tangent, it just really hit me 'cause I was like we're talking very privileged. [laughs]

Finlay: Yeah, like I mean I am male, white, cisgender and stuff, so... I'm a MAP, so I've experienced a lot of discrimination, but my experiences probably are very different from I guess let's say a MAP who is black, female, and transgender, I suppose.

Murr: Oh my god, when I meet her, I'm going to hug her for a hundred years. [laughs] But yeah, yeah.  Maybe one day there'll be people being like, "no, I-I promise, my, um, my sister's best friend's little brother is a MAP!  I love MAPs!" [laughs]

Melon: Yeah, that would be totally... I would love to get to that place.

Murr: I can't wait to be a token on a movie, like please.

Melon: Right?

Murr: We did talk a lot about this last episode, but...

Finlay: In ten years, JK Rowling will say Dumbledore is actually a MAP.

Murr: [laughing] He's a gay MAP.

All: [laugh]

Melon: Who's-- I forget the character who I always thought sort of seemed like a MAP, I don't remember who that was.  Drat.  Okay. [laughs]

Peace: What, from Harry Potter?

Melon: Yeah, I think there was one who-- Oh, Aberforth, of course.

[pause]

Peace: Damn, I don't--

Murr: Yeah, that guy...

Finlay: I think he was kinda hinted to be a zoophile if I remember correctly.

Melon: "Sousphile"?

Murr: "Zoo"?

Melon: Oh, "zoophile"!  Right.  I just-- the accent was confusing me, sorry. [laughs] For some reason my mind wanted to spell that like S-O-U-S. [laughs]

Murr: A Doctor Seuss-phile.

Melon: [laughing] That's what I was thinking, I think!

Murr: That's my new paraphilia.

Finlay: Am I pronouncing "S" in the wrong way?  That's new to me, how to pronounce the "S" correctly.

Murr: No, it's "zoo."  "Z."

Melon: "Z."

Finlay: "Z."  "Zoophile."

Melon: Yeah! [laughs]

Murr: You got it, you got it.

Finlay: Okay. [laughs]

Melon: Sorry.  Yeah, he might've been, I'm not sure.  It's been forever.

Murr: I wanna see more zoophiles media, too, zoophiles are real.

Vyahdis: I'm kind of a zoophile, I just, I really like deer a lot.

Murr: [laughs] I remember.

Peace: Ooh, we're going back into this conversation?

Vyahdis: I think-- yeah, I really... You know how much I like deer.  So people who hear this, they'll hate me for being a MAP and they'll also hate me for being a zoophile, but that's awesome.

Murr: That's-- you know what?  Bring it on.

Vyahdis: I'm a furry, too.  Yeah.

Murr: Well, that actually is an interesting conversation, because I feel like when you're sexually on the outskirts of society, you like pick up kinks and fetishes like they're dust on the ground.  You're like, "this is me now!"

Vyahdis: That is so well said, yes, you're exactly right.

Peace: 'Cause like if society was wrong about MAPs being bad people, maybe it's also wrong about what's normal in sexuality.  So you might as well try everything.

Murr: Well, we know that.

Melon: Yeah, you're able to, you know, you've moved past sort of stigma, because you're already past that line.

Murr: I do wanna think, like, since it's your first time on the podcast, both of you, I know that you said you were out to your parents, I know that you said you came out to the one person and it didn't work out - is there a favorite MAP moment you've had, minus the symposium if it was the symposium?  Or like... any final words that are important to you to say?

Finlay: Maybe something, I don't know, advice for your-- Like if you could travel back in time and tell your younger self something about MAPs, what would it be?

Melon: I think, unfortunately, that there's not much that I could've said to my younger self, you know?  It's sorta something that it takes time to come to grips with.  I know that I was probably better poised for that than most people.  I know you talked somewhat last episode about what made you guys realize that you were a MAP.  For me, that was probably I started watching anime.

Vyahdis: Me too.

Peace: It's always anime! [laughs]

Melon & Murr: It's always anime.

Vyahdis: Yes!  Anime ruined me.  Yes.

Melon: Well, and I think seeing characters like in Lucky Star, there was Konata's dad, Soijiro, who you know was sort of this nice MAP character who was maybe a little bit pervy but otherwise relatable.  And a couple of others as well who were just sort of nice guys who just had a thing for girls [laughs] and they're just like, "yep, that's me."  But still there's-- and I know I still deal with periods of depression followed my periods of denial back to periods of acceptance.  It's just, it's nice to keep reminding yourelf that this is real and this is okay.

Melon: Don't make me cry.

Melon: I'm trying my hardest, you know? [laughs]

Peace: Vy, what about you?  If you were young and-- like you were younger, you're a MAP, you just found out about yourself, what would you want someone to say to you?

Vyahdis: Oh god, this is gonna be like super depressing if I say it [laughs].

Peace: It can be hopeful 'cause that means that you've learned stuff.

Vyahdis: I would go back to my young self, I would definitely say it's okay to be lonely, don't worry about trying to please everybody because you're never going... you won't ever realize who you are.  Like I struggled with that in my early twenties, I just didn't really know who I was and I just wanted to please everyone but it just led me to really terrible stuff that happened that I'm not going to go into, that would be an entire tangent.  But I would say it's okay just to accept yourself and your MAPness and I would probably-- I would also go back to myself when I was nine, because I used to sneak and watch Sailor Moon, I felt ashamed of that, and I'd say "hey buddy, it's okay to watch this."  That was just my thing when I was little.

Murr: That's my favorite.

Peace: Sailor Moon is badass.

Murr: Hell yeah.

Melon: I have never seen... This is one of the issues I have talking to Peace and Murr, is that they seem to have watched all the anime that I haven't.  And vice-versa.

Murr: I am so offended, I'm not even a weeaboo!  That's Peace!  That's not me!

Vyahdis: I am a weeaboo.

Peace: I'm a weeaboo, but not in name.

Vyahdis: Like... do you just only watch subs?  That's what I have to ask.  Like how do you...?

Melon: Oh, absolutely I only watch subs.

Vyahdis: I cannot, I'm sorry, I can't watch dubs.  I just can't.

Melon: No.

Murr: I only watch dubs, that's how not a weeaboo I am.

Vyahdis: Yeah, you are definitely not a weeaboo.

Peace: Oh no, it's this-- it's this conversation!

Murr: I'm trying to clear my name.

Peace: This is like the anti/pro discussion of the anime community!

Vyahdis: I can't stand dubs because when you watch dubs it's always like the same people.  Steven Blum, Johnny...

Peace: Vic Mignogna [making fun of voice actor Vic Mignogna's name]

Murr: "Vic Mignogna"! [laughs]

Vyahdis: Johnny Yong Bosch or whatever the guy that does Adachi [Tohru]'s voice, he's every other character in everything.  Yeah.

Finlay: Just like to all the MAPs, like six or seven or so asked us if they could be on the podcast and yeah, we plan to have, like this episode we have five and we think we'll have for the next episode probably just one more, so four MAPs.  And it might take awhile, if you want to be on the podcast it might unfortunately take awhile, I just wanted to add that.   Though I think it will be difficult to again find such a fitting outro song.  But I don't know.

Vyahdis: We should just sing a song, that's how we should do it.

Melon: Let's not.

Murr: I would literally rather die. [laughs]

Vyahdis: Yes.

Peace: You don't like singiiiiing?

Murr: I love singing, but not here.

Melon: I love singing, too, but not, yeah, not on YouTube.

[outro music]