<USER> http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2016/12/16/13967888/freedom-caucus-regulations

<USER> This is what your buddies did,.

<USER> This is the sort of garbage that is going to happen now.

<USER> And frankly, Tox, being okay with Putin basically skewing the election is pretty goddamn awful.

<Tox> Prove. It.

<USER> >FBI and CIA agree based on the evidence

<Tox> Until and unless someone can come out and show me in black and white how Putin interfered, I regard it with the same scorn and derision I regard this whole pizzagate bullshit

<USER> Your demanding "LET'S SEE THE EVIDENCE" is basically you going into denial.

<Tox> No

<Tox> it's me demanding "let's see the evidence"

<USER> Because you never asked for proof about the bullshit about Clinton.

<USER> You never asked for proof about 9/11.

<USER> You just want an excuse to disregard that you supported a cockroach

<Tox> uh

<Tox> 9/11?

<Tox> what the fuck has that to do with this

<USER> I'm saying that you only want "evidence" when you have it in the form of bipartisan experts making very specific statements- and now the very same people you mindlessly trusted before when they were saying things you agreed with- because it's inconvenient for your worldview.

<Tox> I've never once questioned 9/11

<USER> Enjoy your Russian puppet. Someone who's LIED. On the record. About the level of contact he had.

<Tox> I'm not one of those people who think it was a false flag

<USER> Well that's the level you're operating at. 9/11 false flagging style denial of reality.

<Tox> You can say "russian puppet" as much as you want, pal

<Tox> It's really not

<USER> "Oh, the panels saying it was a jet were lying, clearly it was an inside job"

<USER> But hey, Tump's going to be a mix of impotent and actively running the country into the ground and Putin'll have a free hand to screw everyone else over. Enjoy America's pointless cowardice, decline into increasing irrelevance, and loss of prestige

<Tox> You say that with no proof

<Tox> but hey, okay

<USER> I'm sure the Clinton bogeyman was worth it because god knows Trump's "draining the swamp".

<Tox> let's not talk about this anymore, cause I doubt we're going to agree and we're okay friends otherwise

<USER> Fine.

<USER> But I'm going to leave it at this: "Ask yourself if you think not being worried about foreign involvement in your election- by a pseudo-soviet thug- is the mark of a patriot or even a good person." Ask yourself what Trump has done to make things better. Look at the long, long list of broken promises. Look at who he attacks and dismissses.

<USER> Enjoy your President for the next four years unless we have a miracle.

<Tox> We're not going to agree, USER.

<USER> Fine. I'll leave it at this: Enjoy your President.

<Tox> I'm not worried about Soviet involvement because nobody's shown me how it did or could have happened

<USER> Every single thing that goes wrong from this point forwards is on his- and his voter's heads.

<Tox> Trump's not even President yet, he can't make shit better or worse

<USER> Every single broken promise. Every single lie.

<USER> Other than fucking up international relationships.

<Tox> THe exact same thing could be said of a Clinton presidency

<USER> Yes.

<USER> Other than actively lying.

<USER> It could have been.

<USER> And if Clinton had won, I would have been happy to argue about her flaws.

<Tox> No, I mean, everything going wrong blah de blah

<USER> Yes it COULD have been.

<USER> She wasn't.

<USER> Like goddamnit of course you could hold Clinton to account for fuckups on this scale if she had been stupid enough to pull them

<USER> She didn't get the chance.

<USER> Frankly, at least Pence isn't a blundering fool, just despicable as a person.

<Tox> That I'll agree with

<Tox> fortunately as VP his power to fuck shit up is limited

<USER> Trumps is not.

<Tox> Even then, the head of the Executive can't, directly, do all that much

<Tox> I hope the Democrats don't lose too many more seats in downticket

<USER> Because at this point my sympathy for the pooor mwisguideeddd Trump voters is utterly dead and I want them to reap what they sowed.

<USER> I hope the Republicans run things into the ground.

<Tox> No worse than the Democrats would have done -- and that's why it's important to have multiple parties.

<USER> Fine.

<USER> They want Republicans to call the shots out of some braindead mix of fearmongering, stupidity, and not a little malice?

<USER> We'll see where that gets all of us.

<USER> Sorry, Tox, but that's bullshit.

<USER> The Republican party simply is not a viable alternative anymore.

<USER> It's actively cancerous. If you want "conservative" ideals, that's stapled to a flaming mess of the worst sort of scumbaggery.

<Tox> I'm sorry, USER, but it's not bullshit.

<USER> What would the Democrats have done that's "just as bad as the Republican wishlist"

<Tox> Economically, I lean conservative. Socially, I lean democrat. Unfortunately, that doesn't leave much room for me in the political sphere

<Tox> The ACA needs to be -drastically- reworked, if that's even possible

<Tox> yeah, maybe it extended coverage down a little bit but premiums on the middle class have been growing every year

<Tox> Not to mention the looming threat of a renewed "assault weapons ban"

<USER> Do you really think Trump and his clown car brigade CARE?

<USER> You know what I'm just going to be completely honest.

<USER> I have exactly no sympathy for your gun fetish tbh

<USER> Like maybe it's my UK upbringing

<Tox> Well, it's not a fetish, so.

<Tox> There's that, I guess.

<USER> but I see exactly no need for these sorts of weapons to even exist in civilian hands

<USER> But urgh, I know we definitely are never going to see eye to eye on that

<Tox> The same reason they exist in cops' hands

<Tox> Evil doesn't only attack the police

<Tox> evil attacks the coed in her apartment, the elderly woman in her home

<USER> Frankly, the only people with any reason to be fucking terrified right now are the ones expecting Trump's bullshit to-

<Tox> Evil gangs up on the guy on the street, two on one or worse odds

<USER> >Eldery woman with an assault weapon

<USER> And a bloodbath's the answer, sure.

<Tox> for one it's not an "assault weapon," I used quotes for a reason

<Tox> an AR-15 is hands-down the best choice for home defense

<Tox> (or a similar type rifle)

<USER> A gun is an instrument of murder, by definition. Putting more of them- why. WHYYYYYYYYYYY. Isn

<USER> Isn't the ideal of having a gun never needing to fucking use it

<USER> why would you want a goddamn rifle

<USER> You're not preparing for the fucking apocalypse, you're allegedly worreid about Joe McRapeThief

<Tox> The ideal situation is never having to use it, correct. But we don't live in an ideal world, man

<USER> Well thanks to Trump that's fucking true isn't it

<Tox> the rifle is superior to the shotgun or pistol for a couple of different reasons

<USER> Look, if you want a gun for home defense there is no excuse for something that belongs on a battlefield. This problem exists because of a collective derangement from America's founding but since the problem isn't going anywhere the least insane option is to limit the damage from it.

<Tox> Yes, there is, actually

<USER> What situation do you possibly need to mow people down?

<Tox> who said shit about mowing people down...?

<USER> What does a pistol not do for home defense or self-defense.

<USER> Or a shotgun.

<USER> If you need to use it, why do you need an AR-15 in the first place just to save your own life.

<Tox> An AR-15 is easier to hold and to shoot than either, the recoil force is less, it can be modularly fit to best accommodate the ergonomics of the shooter...

<USER> *So*?

<Tox> So it's superior?

<USER> I ask again.

<USER> So?

<Tox> So it's superior.

<USER> You don't need the gun to end all guns for self-defense.

<USER> You are NOT fighting a war.

<Tox> Nobody said you were

<USER> Allegedly, the excuse for having a gun is a deterrent.

<USER> Or to use it for self-defense.

<Tox> Deterrent, yes, but if the need persists, -- yeah

<USER> In which case if you're firing it at all, things have already gone horribly wrong.

<USER> And accuracy and recoil should be a fucking irrelevancy at that point

<Tox> when is accuracy ever irrelevant

<Tox> when is recoil ever irrelevant

<Tox> if you can't hit your target

<Tox> then what the hell are you doing

<USER> Because if you genuinely need to worry about it, you're either fighting a war or a school shooter.

<USER> I don't see either of them mattering in any of the scenarios you raised.

<Tox> or you're just defending yourself......?

<USER> Elderly woman?

<USER> Do you really see her needing to fire more than a single shot against JoeMcRobber?

<Tox> Like i'm really confused, you have this extreme negative bias

<Tox> Yes, actually.

<USER> I don't and frankly that hypothetical isn't worth "oh look another massacre, must be tuesday"

<USER> NRA's run on blood money, Tox.

<Tox> fortunately, that's not what always results, so

<Tox> OH bullshit

<Tox> don't feed me that

<USER> Blood money.

<Tox> You're feeding me crap again

<USER> Yeah well America has worse problems now than "yet another preventable shooting" sooooooooooo

<Tox> Mechanically, one shot isn't generally enough to put someone down, unless you can land the shot in the head, or tear up enough of their organs or destroy their ability to move

<Tox> this is especially true from a pistol caliber

<USER> If you need to "put someone down", something is already wrong for what's meant as a deterrent and is only really justiable as a deterrent

<Tox> It's justifiable as a means to exert lethal force, as well

<Tox> also

<USER> I don't believe that's true under almost all circumstances.

<Tox> going back to what you said before

<Tox> "A gun is an instrument of murder, by definition." < This is untrue

<USER> Yes, yes, hunters, whatever.

<Tox> no

<Tox> self-defense

<Tox> guns are not instruments of 'murder'

<USER> Threat of murder.

<USER> It doesn't change what they are.

<Tox> no, not threat of 'murder'

<Tox> That's a charged, inaccurate word

<USER> *shrug* It's what I think of it.

<Tox> Then allow yourself to be educated

<Tox> because home defense isn't murder

<USER> Oh yes this beloved home defense hypothetical

<Tox> Resisting a mugging by shooting the mugger isn't murder

<USER> Wonder how many "home defenses" make up for the gun deaths.

<Tox> I would rather have a gun than have to call the police

<Tox> because in this country, they will not arrive in time to save me

<USER> I can't argue with your personal decision but America is worse off because of both gun proliferation and a mentality that prevents it from being fixed to any degree.

<Tox> and, actually, defensive uses of a firearm outweigh gun deaths

<USER> But since the country's going to shit anyway, what does it matter