https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVqFozSjpBs

Bishop Robert Barron
Published on Jun 17, 2019
In my recent interview with Ben Shapiro, I said that we need to “re-Judaize Catholicism”—to read Christ, the Bible, and the Christian faith through the lens of Israel. How do we do this? That’s what Jared Zimmerer and I discuss in today’s episode of “The Word on Fire Show.”

A listener asks why the East and West churches split, and why they haven’t been reunited.

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Transcript:

well welcome back to the word on fire show I'm Jarrod Zimmer the host for this episode Brandon is out this week and so I took the privilege of getting to sit here with Bishop Baron on the word on fire show as I mention my name is Jared Center I'm the director of the word on fire Institute and Bishop as always it's great to be with you again hey Jared always good to see you and talk to you how are things in Texas doing well it's already getting hot of course you weather out here but doing really well and how are the kids little Fulton's okay he's doing good yeah they're now on summer vacation and going crazy so it's that's good good okay good yeah so I know you you actually have several things coming up I know you've got an ordination coming up and some fans in San Franciscans I did that was a couple days ago all the Franciscan families have their novitiates out here in in my region really in Southern California and I met with them so the captions and they and the conventions and the O FM's and we had a wonderful day together talking about evangelization and the intellectual life and all kinds of stuff so that was fun as we record these words tomorrow is our priesthood ordination and here in LA and I have the privilege of vesting one of the guys who's from my region a wonderful young man he's been out here for you know dinner a few times I've gotten to know him so always looking forward to that then the next week I've got to head back to Baltimore to the USCCB meeting so never a dull moment you know does seem very constant well in that and in that constancy what are you reading these days I always love to ask you that question oh yeah well one day I'm listening to you know I spent so much time in the car I listen to these novels I'm listening to a Tale of Two Cities Dickens great novel which you know I I think I might have read it or Torre read part of it many many years ago but is basically all new to me as I listen to but I really like listening to these novels I just finished you know The Brothers Karamazov a couple weeks ago 39 hours I'm listening it's a feat I'm also I'm still reading it that long Churchill biography it's about a thousand pages started a long time ago I read it a little bit at a time you know but I'm also reading I'm finishing up Camille Paula's collection of essays and she's some that I've always enjoyed reading I don't agree with her all the time but she's always provocative and interesting and and I'll see what else oh I just got a wonderful book on Thomas Aquinas in the Greek father's it was based on a symposium a little while ago people like Matt Lovering and Joseph Warwick all from Notre Dame and many others contributors there's kind of a high level academic study but in my area of Aquinas but especially acquaintances in the father's I always find interesting because it's an overlooked part of Thomas anyway there's a few things I'm reading interesting well today I wanted to kind of touch on something that in a recent interview that you had with Ben Shapiro at one point I loved the way you said in the way you've explained it I thought maybe we dive a little bit deeper but this idea that you'd like to read Judy eyes Catholicism yeah and you know it seems to me that there are kind of two aspects to this and first is of course the the reading of Christ but then second also some of the kind of practical aspects to this so first yeah you know why is viewing Christ in in light of Israel so important it's hugely important and you know this is a very old problem Jarrid within Christianity a temptation in the direction of D Judaizing so goes back to the second century and Marcion one of the earliest heresies that church fought was Marcion ISM which wanted to drive a wedge between the two Testaments old and new in fact even within the New Testament Marcion one is it rid those get rid of those books that had a more Jewish kind of overtone that view haunts Christianity up and down the centuries most recently now going to the nineteenth century and well into the 20th century you've got a strong marce denied a tendency look into someone like Rudolf Bultmann who is hugely influential even at when I was studying Bible in the 1970s and 80s goldman was still an influence Beaumont is is unselfconsciously a Marcia Knight I mean holds to Addie judaized approach well do you say that you know the New Testament is much more Hellenistic it's much more Greek it's represents a different philosophical perspective we moved to away from all this Jewish business a former takes today by the way which I see almost every day on the Internet is oh yo the Old Testament God is that bad at all god of violence and hatred and you know tribalism then there's this wonderful New Testament God that Jesus reveals what you've done is you've effectively ripped Jesus out of his roots and you've ripped him out of the ground and what happens and you see it from Marcion to Bultmann and to people like John Dominic Crossan you see Jesus becoming now of a bland spiritual teacher of timeless truths so he's like the Buddha and like the Sufi mystics and like you know a Jewish rabbis and and everybody else like a new age of wisdom figure but see to do that is to do enormous violence to Jesus and to the New Testament because I mean what do we hear constantly in the New Testament authors is in their Greek Casa de graça cantata grapha according to the writings and they meant by that not the right Plato or Philo they meant the writings of the what we call the Old Testament they saw him and of course I was you know I like to refer him as rabbi shai will sometimes Paul the Apostle rabbi Saul again and again will say some version of Jesus is the yes to all the promises that God made to Israel how do you understand the resurrection how do you understand the cross how do you understand what we later call the Incarnation but precisely as that as the yes to every promise God made Israel when you see Jesus now as the fulfillment of Israel you really get what's good news about the gospel that's the good news they wanted to share it's also why rabbi shovel the Apostle Paul typically went first to synagogues right when he could come to Philip I or Athens or Corinth his first mode was the synagogue of course it was of course it was because the son of Israel would be the ones who would most readily get this message he was he was offering now he also intuitive this this is meant for all the world so Paul spoke to the Gentiles as well but his first instinct was talk to the Jews they'll they'll get what I'm describing I think that's very important to recover that Jewish background if we're gonna properly understand what the good news is well how do you strike that balance between because it seems like the temptation to this kind of marcia night perspective is to kind of hold him at a at a higher level almost to remove him that come from that continuity but then there's also that the Judaizers of the first injury that would try to inculcate a lot of Jewish law into Christianity that things like that so it does seem that the Catholicism in particular just strike that balance but in a daily way or in a reading of the Gospels reading of the Bible how did we strike that balance now go back to the to the very first council the council Jerusalem and you're putting your finger on what the early church saw as its first major problem its first major dilemma affirming everything I've just been saying all the great figures you know in Peter and James and John and Paul and the rest of them they all saw what I was describing you know Jesus is the fulfillment of Israel but then largely under the leadership of Paul they saw that elements of the Jewish heritage legitimately are gonna fall away why because this new fulfillment has come in Jesus that has moved us beyond some of the particularity zhh let's say of the dietary restrictions and the and the the laws governing temple worship etc you see it don't you in in st. Peter in the Acts of the Apostles that story of the house of Cornelius when he sees all the unclean animals coming down in that vision you know and the voice saying take and eat and oh no no I will never do that but then what he's what's being communicated there is the early church coming to realize what was really essential about the Jewish background fulfilled in Jesus and what could fall away you see it of course massively and Paul you know that were justified not by works of the law and and Paul didn't mean by that that now we bracket morality I mean that's that's the trouble with simplistic reading of that what he meant was it seems to me that elements of the juridical and ceremonial and dietary prescriptions of the Jewish law fall away because they found this new fulfillment in the sacrifice of the Cross for example you know so you're right there's a there's a tension and the church in its earliest phases dealt with that reread that little section in the Acts of the Apostles when they they recount the findings of that first council Jerusalem and that's what they did you know they felt under the guidance of the Spirit that certain elements could fall away or be reinterpreted while others of course remain massively in place I would say as the permanent interpretive framework for understanding Jesus so yeah you might say the middle ground between a Marcion ISM on the one hand or a complete you know Judaizing on the other hand the church found that that middle path and that's how they went forward and in regard to reading the Bible especially whenever we read the Old Testament there's kind of reading it through the Jewish cultural lens and it does seem that and some even some other modern exit Jesus that we can read some people purely do it through a Jewish cultural lens and some people remove that completely so when we're talking about reading the Old Testament how odd Catholics to be able to read that will get missed attention that's that's always the problem you got to find the right middle ground a lot of the the recent scholarship did it I have enjoyed so much you know the new perspective on Paul people IEP Sanders an NT right and James D G done and so many others they like using initials don't all the new perspective people and CVG and but that's what they tried to do is to redo ties because they all came of age the men I just mentioned would all be oh 10 20 years older than I am so they would have come of age massively in the kind of Bultmann inspired a period so I think they're trying to respond to that but it's not to fall back into a complete you know call it complete Judaizing but Jesus the fulfillment of Israel that keeps Israel very much to the forefront all everything Paul says in Romans 9 to 11 remains in place you know that Jesus God does not go back on his covenant with Israel but this covenant is found a new fulfillment in in Jesus one that is is in one way out early unexpected ante right so good at articulating that you know that that the yes was indeed a great yes but it's very unexpected yes to the promises made Israel and and the Christian dispensation is kind of in that space of the yes to Israel but this very surprising yes and to stay there I think it's to get is to get it right now in regard to particularly Catholic liturgy I love whenever you're talking with ben shapiro about the the temple language yeah of the old testament and how we need a continuity with that so how hot catholics understand particularly the mass in regard to this idea of the temple yeah and you know i've been very influenced by a lot of this temple of research another initial gkb liz another scholar who's written a lot about the temple another initial yeah yeah more i should be re baroness but but you can't get the mass jared apart from the temple and again that's not to let's all go back to the temple or show but it's to see this very deep continuity between the style and the structure of temple worship and the mass the very fact that we have priests that we have bishops wearing miters that we have vestments that we have candles and incense and altar and offerings ii all of that is temple talk where do you see it by the way you see it in the letter to the hebrews massively undoubtedly written by a temple priest and you see it in the book of revelation undoubtedly written by someone who had deep association with the temple the mass as we know it comes up organically out of that interpretive framework i often make that contrast you know between the catholic priest at the altar and a Protestant preacher in a pulpit and the preacher will wear very often the doctoral robes so the robes that he or she received upon getting a doctorate doctors means teacher right because at the heart of Protestant worship is teaching it's the full claiming of the word right so it's the doctor or the teacher in the pulpit who is the center of attention but I mean I I could wear doctor office but but when I come out to say Mass I've got the robes of a temple priest on and now as a bishop I wear the mitre which goes back to them to the template where the the mitre of a temple high priest I swing a censor you know around the altar of sacrifice and at the part of the prayer not to denigrate the homily for a second there is in fact very important teaching there's sort of doctoral of work that goes on but at the heart of it is is a temple sacrifice it's done at an altar by a priest you won't get that until you get the temple but again the difference is the way the temple worship has been transfigured and fulfilled in the great sacrifice of the Cross which of course the mass represents right so the priest acting in Persona Christi in a very person of Christ Rhee presents the eternal sacrifice of Christ to his father drawing all those who are at the mass into that great act of worship and thereby bringing us online see and all of that you can hear in the Old Testament when all the tribes go up to Mount Zion they join together in right praise they become properly aligned what was anticipated there is fulfilled and beyond fulfilled by the cross of Jesus which is now recapitulated and represented at every mass presided over by a temple priest so that's the continuity which is very deep and very rich between Judaism and and the mass you know one thing that Russell Kirk often would say is that the American culture of the Western culture received from the Judaic heritage this idea of a divine law then there's something that is applicable to absolutely everyone whether you're a ruler or a plebeian it's it's everyone and would you say that the Catholic Church also somewhat inherited that as well yeah sure there are different dimensions of Judaism I've been stressing now that kind of sacrificial temple side of it but sure the moral law and that's what Kirk is driving it the moral law that transcends any political arrangement and so all political actors are under that law right as a deeply biblical idea and yeah that's shaped the the West remarkably you know and and that certainly exists within Catholicism you know our strong sense of the moral law so yeah that's that reflects a Judaizing a Judaic sort of principle and to kind of get also just kind of practical especially for people who are evangelists and maybe have you know a friend or relative that might be Jewish you know the the relationship between Christians and Jews has has kind of its ups and downs throughout savories to at least and so what what advice might you have for those Catholics or just Christians who have a Jewish friend or desire to have a closer relationship and guide that in evangelization yeah good I mean obviously always to reach out in love and always to reach out in an attitude of you know of inclusivity in overcome any anti-semitic you know prejudice I hope it's clear from what we've been saying is that anti-semitism is is it's an immigrant Christianity really authentically construed as you suggest quite correctly there's been a less than stellar record when it comes to Christians relating to to Jews so I mean once once that's in place this very deep love and deep friendship I think then some of these points of contact can be explored very fruitful e.i father said to two Jews who are becoming Catholics and I've known a number over the earth and I'll say I mean you're so disposed to get what we're about in a way I'll say I need to explain fewer things to you because a lot of what you're seeing is deeply Jewish yeah let's talk about those things those points of content I've been involved in a lot of ecumenical and inter-religious conversations over the years and that's how I find talking to Jews is very fruitful now I get given our awful history that for a lot of Jews and I understand it that whenever you talk about evangelization fulfillment of Israel they can hear oppression they can hear at the limit genocide you know and I understand that perfectly so we must always be you know dramatically sensitive to that fact but I think deep friendship and then and then explore points of contact yeah it seems to me like st. Paul is kind of our model and yeah to go directly to the synagogues and and speak in that temple language and and the like right and Paul who never repudiates his Judaism Paul doesn't see himself as you know converting from one religion to another he saw himself as no I I'm the spokesman for this wonderfully unexpected fulfillment of Israel he's a he's a proud son of Benjamin I mean and Paul doesn't repudiate his Jewish roots again that's romans 9 to 11 this is the covenant with Israel remains altogether valid of course it does because it's been fulfilled in Jesus so yeah Paul would be the model yeah one thing I have thought about as well as that you know the Judaic Christian heritage right and that they are truly are our roots and when you think about in a familial sense you know psychology is showing more and more that when the family is broken and that removal of roots there's a great kind of crisis in the mind of especially the children um and I and I think that maybe there's something to that with in regard to our relationship with with the Jewish folks around us and that there's kind of this familial relationship and that truly we do share roots yeah and that's a good point Jared that it hurts both of us you know I mean John Paul the second who in so many ways was a son of Vatican 2 and Vatican 2 represents a huge you know moment of clarity on this score but John Paul saw that and that wonderful visit he made in the was that the early 80s or mid 80s to the Roman synagogue and that set the tone for so much of the conversation you know to the present day good because we're both were both hurt by a lack of real conversation yeah and would you say to that I mean with this rise and unbelief I mean I think it's it's affecting the the Jewish faith just as much as it is the Christians maybe a little bit less than ours and I think community has a lot to do with that but would you say that we kind of have somewhat of a common enemy in this rise of secularism this rise of atheism and that's another place of absolutely and I do that a lot in these ecumenical and inter-religious conversations I'm having now I'll say just that that as we've been discussing our differences or points the contact let's remember brothers and sisters that we have a common enemy today you know so the secularism that stands a floor any reference to the transcendent to a moral absolute to a sense of God of a happiness beyond what the world can give all of that we have a common enemy and so we should make a common ground one thing I loved you know at the NT right another of our initial people um he has taken very seriously the inspiration from the prophet Isaiah Isaiah is one of the first now to realize what was given to Israel is meant for the world so those lyrical passages the beginning of Isaiah and then kind of reiterated in the middle part of like Isaiah 40s and 50s about the universal implication of Israel so all the tribes of Israel go up but it's all the kings and tribes the rule they're meant to go up right and that whole idea of the light to the nation's and of bearing good news those are all Isaiah themes that's deep within the tradition of Israel that somehow the God of Israel is meant for the world well ante right says it mysteriously that's exactly what happened through Christianity is the God of Israel was indeed brought to the end of the world and then NT right quotes what's his first name the great rabbi for London rabbi sacks that Leonard that's the that's the doctor uh rabbi I can't think of it now but very influential figure very important intellectual and and he agreed with that no speaking as a Jew as a he said it's true that the Christianity has brought the God of Israel to the nations and so we Jews should have a gratitude you know for that I think that wonderful symbiosis between the two is worth celebrating absolutely you've missed it you've mentioned a few different authors are there any specific books in particular that you would recommend to our listeners and our viewers that would help explain sort of the Jewish roots of Christianity the Jewish roots of Catholicism yeah some of the ones I mentioned I mean NT writes good mark he's not a Catholic but in Christianity and Judaism NT right certainly a piece and there's another one but someone from within the Catholic this fear is a brand Petri so brands books about Eucharist about sacraments and so on are very good about Mary about showing these these Jewish roots of these Christian convictions so get any brand Petrie's books yeah what about the other side of it are there any Jewish scholars that you might recommend ah I'd have to think you're I'm not sure I don't want to just jump I mentioned rabbi sacks who has written about some of these things I'd have to think a little more about them okay well now it's time for our question from a listener and this one comes from Dawn and Bethany Wilcox out of Phoenix Arizona who asks a little bit about that the the split between east and west I think this is done and Bethany from Phoenix Arizona we have a question about the division between east and west thousand years ago we wondered if you could speak to why Orthodox and Catholic Christianity split and why it is that today they're not able to get back together thanks and God bless and thank you for that question and you're right we've been we've been wrestling for a thousand years you know my hero st. Thomas Aquinas and his friends st. Bonaventure died Thomas on the way to it Bonaventure added the Council of Lyon 1270 for the stated purpose of which was to find a rapprochement between east and west so my point there is that the Christians have been trying for a long time to overcome the split and the Pope at the time in 1274 brought in his two heavyweights he brought in the two smartest guys in the West Bonaventure and Aquinas partially to try to solve this problem so Christians have been passionate for a long time think now appalled the sixth in the wake of the council meeting his counterpart from the East look at Francis I mean does it all the time so you're right and seeing this is a really neuralgic point John Paul that wanted us to breathe with both lungs right both east and west know why the split 1054 there's you know the library shelves the books written on it partially political to be honest about it political resentments and so on and so forth doctrinally I'd say Authority is a major issue and that's as old as the hills in Christianity is central authority versus more local authority who of the great patriarchal sees has as primacy what's the nature of that primacy so the West gathering eventually around the Bishop of Rome as the key center of unity and source of authority that's one issue obviously is the Pope theologically and a lot of differences east and west it reads someone like gregory of nyssa in the east agustin in the West or Chrysostom in the East Jerome and the in the West or just you'll see these these basic differences in approach some of that crystallised around of these these christological and Trinitarian themes the famous Filioque problem you know so we say that the spirit proceeds ex patre Filioque from the father and from the sun and we still say it every Sunday and then I seen create the East Fox at that I won't go into the details are too complex of how the two arguments shake out but there's a difference there in the way we understand a Trinitarian theology you know they're huge points of contact doctrinally and sacramentally and all that so that there's plenty of ground for real reproach mom my hope is that what didn't happen in 1274 could happen and and people like Paul the sixth and John Paul the second and Pope Francis sowing the seeds of it I hope it could happen all right well Bishop I want to thank you for your excellent guidance in this conversation and for all of our listeners and viewers you know the director of the word on fire Institute I thought I'd just take a small second to talk about the Institute and you know if you really want to be formed in the way in which Bishop Baron is talking about evangelization and going out and and bringing the gospel the light of Christ of the world joined the the word on fire Institute just go to a word on fire dot Institute we've got tons of of courses in there that range from philosophy theology practical evangelism even literature you know lots of different things involved in that we bring in a lot of experts to come and teach on their different areas of expertise we've got a very lively student forum as well as those fellows that are our professors are getting involved in the conversations and we also talk about a lot of you know current happenings as a community and how that affects us as evangelists and so you know just to invite you into the word on fire Institute again visit word on fire dot Institute and you can sign up today and with that subscription you also get a free subscription to word on fire digital which gives you access to all of Bishop Barron's study programs and topical programs and the the the great you know pivotal players and Catholicism series and all of those so again go to word on fire dot Institute and you can sign up today well thank you all for listening and we'll see you next week at the word on fire show