Derpest Knowledge

12:50 AM → hex joined (IceChat9@net-k7117g.ca.comcast.net)
12:50 AM
<hex> ahahahahahahahahahahahaha
12:50 AM hahahahahahahahahahahahaahaahaha
12:50 AM worst worlds I've watching years.
12:50 AM Maybe some day Riot won't start worlds with a terrible fucking meta.
12:51 AM
<Forgery> wym?
12:51 AM What's bad about this meta?
12:51 AM
<hex> No macro.
12:51 AM Everything is STILL based on who gets the stronger champions in P/B and fights.
12:52 AM
<Forgery> But G2 is entirely getting as far as they have based on Macro. Their 1 3 1 strat is why they're able to win, since they got destroyed every time they teamfought.
12:52 AM
<hex> Legit watching KT v IG I was able to blind predict who wins based on fucking pick/ban, at the hgihest level of play.
12:52 AM G2's win condition was "tilt uzi", not "1-3-1".
12:53 AM
<Forgery> Because its KT and IG, who are pretty equal in skill and so the one with the draft adv will win. KT has higher individual play, IG has stronger teamfights.
12:53 AM
<hex> ?????
12:53 AM KT did not have higher individual play
12:53 AM you're trolling
12:53 AM Deft/Score played very well
12:53 AM Smeb with the 200IQ TP saved game 3
12:53 AM but Mata got caught out so much trying to ward
12:53 AM
<Forgery> are you telling me that KT's players are worse on an individual level than IG's?
12:53 AM
<hex> and ucal was outclassed
12:53 AM ...
12:54 AM That series was literally lost based on mid difference.
12:55 AM
<Forgery> Yeah. My argument is that the loss on mid difference is due to IG having better teamfights overall, since KT's players are stronger than IG's for the most part, the exception being ucal vs Rookie.
12:55 AM Look at Smeb and Deft and Score.
12:55 AM
<hex> uh
12:55 AM no
12:55 AM That series was lost because mid difference
12:55 AM meant Ning could perma-invade with 0 drawbacks
12:55 AM Due to ucal never having any pressure in the lane.
12:56 AM IG do not have better teamfighting then KT. IG have a better mid laner then KT.
12:57 AM
<Forgery> Alright. I guess you and I disagree on that.
12:59 AM So then are you salty about the drafting or the team of KT? Both seem like complaints that point to KT being worse at something and thus not winning. Not meta, just bad coaching/play.
1:00 AM
<hex> go rewatch laning phase
1:00 AM watch Ning's pathing around mid every game at like 8 minutes
1:00 AM he gets free priority on scuttle AND invades because Rookie outclasses Ucal so hard
1:01 AM
<Forgery> ...so why is that a bad thing to have happen? Rookie's a better player, which means his team gains an advantage.
1:05 AM
<hex> Mid game hits and macro doesn't exist due to the mid difference being absolutely massive, so KT has to play the 'lose the minimum' game
1:06 AM
<Forgery> So is that because of meta or because ucal is such a liability?
1:06 AM
<hex> It's because Riot has gone out of their way to remove the things that made the game like a chess match, and have been doing it for months.
1:07 AM The amount of damage available to me at any given time is absurd.
1:07 AM
<Forgery> ...So you  want worse players to win because they have better coaching and taught strategies and not because they're better at the game?
1:07 AM
<hex> Literally what happened in 2017.
1:08 AM You do realize having superior coaching and strategy play is in fact, a part of the game?
1:09 AM
<Forgery> I think of the gameplay, ie the ability to play the game well individually, as more important than having the strategy dripfed to the point the game becomes nearly solved and decisions are made ala call and response rather than being made by knowing the right time to make a play or pull a trigger.
1:11 AM
<hex> And that's why the highest level of play is declining
1:11 AM
<Forgery> Its declining because its now about individuals instead of coaches?
1:11 AM
<hex> wut
1:11 AM Mechanics have been evening out at the highest level of play for years
1:11 AM You rarely, if ever, see actual, genuine, solo kills in lane anymore.
1:12 AM
<Forgery> ...Did you watch this worlds or just complain about it
1:12 AM There have been plenty of solo kills
1:12 AM
<hex> This worlds
1:12 AM is a sign
1:12 AM of the genuine decline of macro
1:12 AM as a fucking whole
1:12 AM No macro at the highest level? Every team is just solo queue superstars at this point.
1:12 AM
<Forgery> So you're saying because you don't like the way this Worlds has gone, its a sign that the highest caliber of play is actually bad.
1:12 AM At macro*
1:12 AM
<hex> LMFAO you're genuinely reaching.
1:12 AM Competitive League has been a dumpsterfire
1:13 AM Since a bit after MSI.
1:16 AM
<Forgery> Your argument has been "I don't like this, macro is dead" without any form of clarification what exactly is dead. You complain about damage being too high, but also too few solo kills and still too many. You complain meta is bad but don't say why other than macro is dead (which meta shouldn't affect). You say the highest caliber of play is getting worse with the argument that the teams you don't think should win did win. What exactly is reaching?
1:16 AM
<hex> wut
1:17 AM You don't even know what team I support lmfao
1:17 AM
<Forgery> Give me a reason macro declined. Give me a reason that having solo queue superstars as a team is bad. Give me a reason why the meta killed macro. Any detail to give your complaints merit.
1:17 AM
<hex> k
1:18 AM Meta kills macro because damage is so high and champions are so strong there is literally 0 need to actually properly rotate around the map
1:18 AM You can just group as 5 and fight over and over again and bc u won pick/ban u win game
1:18 AM Having solo queue superstars as a team is poor unless all you care about is them HYPHY OUTPLAYS, but if all you want is outplays then just go fucking watch an actual streamer smurfing or something, don't fucking watch competitive play.
1:19 AM Competitive play is about roughly equivalent skill mixed with synergy/team cohesion, something that doesn't need to exist due to how heavily the game favors pick power and lane priority right now.
1:19 AM The meta, as it is, is in such a state that if SKT was at worlds, right now, in their current form, they would be a favorite to win.
1:20 AM Purely because Faker is still one of the best players to ever touch the game - and that means that they have at least one winning solo lane at all times; and the game heavily favors winning solo laners due to bot 2v2 no longer really 'existing' beyond 'oh boy I hope I don't get 4 man dived first'.
1:20 AM
<Forgery> So what changed from playins to worlds that would make SKT so much better at Worlds when they lost to SSG?
1:20 AM er, Gen G.
1:21 AM
<hex> The reason KT lost? Mid/top difference. TheShy and Rookie are mechanically better then Smeb and Ucal, who are still top 3 in their roles.
1:22 AM The reason RNG lost? Mid/top difference.
1:22 AM The reason macro is so important is because it was the grand equalizer between a team with top-tier players and a team with a sense of how the game should go, barring misplays, and why you should be where you are on the map.
1:24 AM What changes from playins to worlds is that the meta shifted to heavily favor mid focus, as well as the increasing damage meant that solo kills and outplays were far more common then they were before, due to how flashy the good champions are.
1:24 AM ↔ •Wellwick (opped) nipped out
1:25 AM
<hex> Without macro, the game is no longer equal between the team who had better players, and the team who knows how the game should be played out. Which means games devolve to "hehe xd, better top wins".
1:27 AM Also, I've watched this game for 5 fucking years. I've been a KT fan for a similar amount of time. Their results at worlds are meaningless to me, because KT is a team that would never EVER succeed when I really, really want them to.
1:35 AM
<Forgery> I still think the reason why this is upsetting you is because of KT losing. I'd argue that this is the first time where skill matters more than macro in multiple seasons, and unlike you, I believe its a good thing that skill actually matters, and not just coaching. When macro is king, the deciding factor in games is not the players, but the coaches and picks. Now, this season, its about the players again, and I prefer that. I want to see the best
1:35 AM players in the world face off, and this worlds allows me to see that. Its a team game, but a team is made up of players, and having weak lanes should be a detriment. The games aren't without macro; slow pushes still exist, knowing when to do baron/dragon still matters, how to teamfight/control waves, all of those are still factors in pro play. The only difference is that in these games, a weak laner can't count on the rest of the team to compensate for
1:35 AM their play entirely. Mid/Top difference matters. Jungle difference matters. Support difference matters. The only role that's not as impactful is adc. Roaming and map awareness, warding, all of those are macro and still incredibly relevant. The deadliness of the early game this season has shown as much. The only thing is that skill now has a place in the meta, not just awareness.
1:39 AM → vanderhuge joined (uid207300@charlton.irccloud.com)
1:48 AM
<hex> ??????????????
1:48 AM Literally everyone about like, D4 agrees with me.
1:49 AM Only people in low elo think that skill should be the ONLY THING THAT matters in competitive play.
1:49 AM
<Forgery> But its not the only thing that matters
1:49 AM
<hex> It's far more important this season then any season since s3.
1:49 AM
<Forgery> Yes
1:49 AM It is
1:49 AM More important =/= Only thing
1:50 AM
<hex> lmao enjoy ur final of FNC v IG, where it's decided entirely on laner difference!
1:50 AM
<Forgery> Probably will. Its the actual highest level of play, after all.
1:51 AM
<hex> Truly the peak of competitive league of legends - where games are won purely based of mechanical differences. It's like I'm watching solo queue again.
1:51 AM Also holy shit you have no fucking idea what macro actually is
1:51 AM you're just listing off things that casters talk about and claiming it is macro
1:51 AM Slow pushing is not macro. It's wave manipulation.
1:52 AM
<Forgery> And is wave manipulation, ie the use of waves to draw pressure to a side of the map so that it forces the enemy to make a decision between losing pressure on one side of the map or an objective on the other, not macro?
1:53 AM
<hex> Absolutely not. Wave manipulation has been standard since S4. If you can't accomplish basic wave manipulation, you're a terrible professional player.
1:53 AM
<Forgery> So what is that, if not macro?
1:54 AM Standard doesn't mean it can't be macro
1:54 AM
<hex> Macro is literally the reasons you are moving around the map you are. It's why you're rotating, and what you're gaining from rotating. It's lane assignments, and the reasons behind them, and how you create pressure on the map by placing players in different lanes.
1:54 AM It has nothing to fucking do with slow pushing.
1:58 AM
<Forgery> How is that missing from this meta then?
1:58 AM
<hex> Because the meta is all about solo lane differences due to how much damage is currently available.
1:59 AM
<Forgery> So its about lane assignments and how pressure on the map is created by players in various lanes.
1:59 AM
<hex> You don't need to justify having someone catch the triple cannon bot wave who's behind, when you can just give it to your very ahead Ryze who's the best mid laner in the world and have him 1v9.
2:01 AM
<Forgery> Yeah. That's making a macro decision. Or is funneling not a macro strategy.
2:01 AM Your definition of macro seems contradictory to your belief that it doesn't exist in the current meta.
2:02 AM
<hex> K, who's backing up your side of the argument?
2:02 AM
<Forgery> Who's backing up yours? Your argument is macro doesn't exist. No one else is saying that.
2:03 AM
<hex> I can poll a masters player, multiple diamonds, a challenger, and like 6 plats who agree that macro died this year.
2:03 AM I have LS saying that macro isn't really a thing. I have Frosk speaking on how its more on mechanical skill now. I have Deficio mentioning how important pick/ban is in multiple instances.
2:03 AM
<Forgery> Great. I can poll 9 people as well who say its not dead. Not a great argument that "I have friends who say its dead".
2:03 AM And by your definition, drafting is macro.
2:04 AM
<hex> By your definition, macro is having a brain while playing the game.
2:05 AM
<Forgery> How is "reasons you are moving around the map, lane assignments and the reasons behind them, and how you create pressure on the map by placing players in different lanes" not exactly that?
2:05 AM
<hex> u said slowpushing
2:05 AM was macro
2:05 AM literally everyone slowpushes waves back and forth
2:05 AM its how the fucking mid game works
2:06 AM
<Forgery> Literally everyone knows reasons that you're moving around the map too
2:07 AM
<hex> macro is, to this day, the standard that Samsung White set around vision control, objective control, and slowly choking out the opposition with superior map movement and lane assignments.
2:08 AM Riot has been slowly killing macro due to how it ensured that Korea was always the most dominant region; after all, Korea was also the most macro heavy region. And so, they've gutted vision, made baron by far the most important objective on the map, and increased damage so that you HAVE to win a
2:08 AM mid-game 5v5 in order to win the game.
2:09 AM
<Forgery> They've changed the priorities of the map.