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kiwiboi

just-dice chat log

kiwiboi
Oct 13th, 2013
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  1. 01:16:10 (442) <dirtysocks> the nonce is only used twice
  2. 01:16:11 (120784) <worththerisk> newbie here what is nakowa commission?
  3. 01:16:13 (442) <dirtysocks> not four times
  4. 01:16:19 (169827) <yesno> werslty: there's this thing where you trade your skills and/or products in exchange for currency, that works quite alrught for most people
  5. 01:16:22 (152261) <bernadette-alt> so we can simplify this to H(O^K || I^K || M)
  6. 01:16:51 (152261) <bernadette-alt> the XORs do nothing to increase entropy, so we can further simplify to H(K || K || M)
  7. 01:17:23 (152261) <bernadette-alt> and if we expand K and M we have: H(N || S || N || N || S || N || N || C || N)
  8. 01:17:25 (442) <dirtysocks> why doog say nonce is used four times
  9. 01:17:30 (152261) <bernadette-alt> where S is server seed and C is client seed
  10. 01:17:38 (152261) <bernadette-alt> basically, the nonce is being put in 6 times
  11. 01:17:47 (152261) <bernadette-alt> the server seed put in twice, and the client seed once
  12. 01:17:58 (442) <dirtysocks> how so
  13. 01:18:05 (442) <dirtysocks> i mean
  14. 01:18:07 (152261) <bernadette-alt> there are intermediate obfuscations to ensure security, but they do not affect entropy
  15. 01:18:09 (442) <dirtysocks> the nonce
  16. 01:18:42 (442) <dirtysocks> lets say roll 67 is coming
  17. 01:18:53 (442) <dirtysocks> where is the 67 used four times?
  18. 01:19:08 (152261) <bernadette-alt> if you think about it Just-Dice is doing this: H(O^(N || S || N) || H(I^(N || S || N) || (N || C || N)))
  19. 01:19:25 (442) <dirtysocks> please answer my question
  20. 01:19:33 (152261) <bernadette-alt> where H is SHA512, O is opad, N is nonce, S is server seed, I is ipad, C is client seed
  21. 01:19:35 (1) <dooglus> socks: I mean hmac(nonce:server_seed:nonce, nonce:client_seed:nonce);
  22. 01:19:55 (1470) <KLYE> Fuuuck
  23. 01:20:04 (1470) <KLYE> I should go and start getting ready for work I guess
  24. 01:20:06 (442) <dirtysocks> uuuuuh????
  25. 01:20:10 (152261) <bernadette-alt> if you count the number of N's in that expression there are 6
  26. 01:20:19 (152261) <bernadette-alt> H(O^(N || S || N) || H(I^(N || S || N) || (N || C || N))) is what the HMAC expands to
  27. 01:20:34 (1470) <KLYE> ya'll are nerds. -_-
  28. 01:20:35 (152261) <bernadette-alt> the two nonces used with the server seed are duplicated
  29. 01:20:44 (1) <dooglus> so it was never used only once by bernadette's expansion
  30. 01:20:44 (152261) <bernadette-alt> so nonce is actually being used 6 times
  31. 01:20:45 (1470) <KLYE> I am a nerd.. but like a videogame/music nerd..
  32. 01:20:47 (442) <dirtysocks> since when
  33. 01:20:52 (1) <dooglus> since bet 145M
  34. 01:20:55 (1470) <KLYE> Math nerds still confuse me.. -_-
  35. 01:21:04 (442) <dirtysocks> now its
  36. 01:21:19 (442) <dirtysocks> 67:clientseed:67
  37. 01:21:28 (1) <dooglus> it only changed once. from hmac(S, CN) to hmac(NSN, NCN)
  38. 01:21:33 (152261) <bernadette-alt> dooglus: it was still only used once before IIRC
  39. 01:21:50 (152261) <bernadette-alt> HMAC uses the key twice but the message only once
  40. 01:21:57 (442) <dirtysocks> exactly
  41. 01:22:05 (1) <dooglus> bernadette: oh, I see. because only S is doubled. though the sha512 algorithm probably uses it a bunch of times?
  42. 01:22:06 (152261) <bernadette-alt> when the nonce was stored in the message, it was used only once
  43. 01:22:22 (152261) <bernadette-alt> obviously the SHA512 algorithm will use it a ton of times
  44. 01:22:41 (145965) <cmrn> which is why talking about how the HMAC algorithm uses it is also kinda pointless
  45. 01:22:41 (442) <dirtysocks> if the message is used once
  46. 01:22:52 (442) <dirtysocks> and the message is containing twice the nbonce
  47. 01:22:57 (1470) <KLYE> Alright. I am out guys... Profits > 5K when I get off in the morning please
  48. 01:22:58 (1) <dooglus> well, talking about how hmac() uses it is similarly pointless
  49. 01:22:59 (442) <dirtysocks> i dont see how y arrive at four
  50. 01:23:02 (152261) <bernadette-alt> that's why there's no security benefit to using the nonce 6 times
  51. 01:23:06 (120784) <worththerisk> Anybody what is nakowa commission refered to earlier I'm thinking of investing after losing this week
  52. 01:23:22 (152261) <bernadette-alt> but it isn't the same degree of pointlessness here
  53. 01:23:40 (152261) <bernadette-alt> SHA512 is expected to use numbers over and over, because it is a hash function
  54. 01:23:47 (1) <dooglus> worth: it's just referring to this: nakowa divests before playing. if he wins, he wins are shared between the other investors. then he reinvests, and any subsequent gains are spread thinner, because he has diluted the pot
  55. 01:23:56 (152261) <bernadette-alt> HMAC itself isn't a hash function because it piggybacks on real hash functions
  56. 01:24:05 (442) <dirtysocks> i know
  57. 01:24:13 (442) <dirtysocks> still have not an answer
  58. 01:24:17 (152261) <bernadette-alt> I can use the modulo function as my hash function and HMAC doesn't mind
  59. 01:24:37 (152261) <bernadette-alt> in such a case, using the nonce 6 times is marginally more secure than once
  60. 01:24:38 (120784) <worththerisk> oh thanks thought I was missing something in the distribution
  61. 01:25:08 (1) <dooglus> worth: this somewhat confusing report shows how investment has grown since day 1: [img]
  62. 01:25:15 (1) <dooglus> one particular investment, that is
  63. 01:25:20 (152261) <bernadette-alt> so it's important to draw a line between the SHA512 black-box and the values passed to it
  64. 01:25:41 (152261) <bernadette-alt> HMAC's duplication of the nonce is significant in that it is not always useless
  65. 01:25:58 (152261) <bernadette-alt> in the HMAC-SHA512, it is, because SHA512 is a good hash function
  66. 01:26:04 (189599) <werslty> can someone tell me what the profit percents mean? the one that says 0.115567%
  67. 01:26:25 (13767) <fractal> dooglus, can you fix the lag? every 10 bets is a few seconds lag
  68. 01:26:38 (180180) <tiCeR> Ok guys: the profit alert system should be done! i hope i did no mistakes because i am realy sleepy ^^ if you find a mistake let me know by mail ! http://just-dice.bitcoinproject.net/alert.php i hope you like it! see you tomorrow. doog we also have to talk
  69. 01:26:48 (180180) <tiCeR> because if some old statistik data i want ot add
  70. 01:27:17 (98066) <Nix> ticer I saw you page dude and it is fantastic =) well done
  71. 01:27:43 (180180) <tiCeR> ty
  72. 01:27:48 (180180) <tiCeR> so check the new alert system
  73. 01:27:50 (180180) <tiCeR> ;)
  74. 01:28:00 (180180) <tiCeR> have to sleep for now see you tomorrow guys
  75. 01:28:09 (180180) <tiCeR> i will finish the bot tomorrow )
  76. 01:28:15 (57799) <ShotgunMosquito> nice tiCeR
  77. 01:28:35 (442) <dirtysocks> G.k7qeS7UYvBPQXeNz8MBTNbBsZrxHQoL0_5h8X9QbJuXp1C2jVp7eH.nyveYOny is the key
  78. 01:28:48 (442) <dirtysocks> 999:33316:999 is the message
  79. 01:29:15 (442) <dirtysocks> then the roll is 3C9B2
  80. 01:30:51 (442) <dirtysocks> i arrive at 24.8242
  81. 01:33:26 (442) <dirtysocks> i get wrong rolls
  82. 01:38:58 (10473) <martiz> ping...?
  83. 01:39:45 (147985) <Heathen> WALKING DEAD IS BACK???
  84. 01:39:50 (189599) <werslty> [1AyDkAhP] Sorry to be a bother, but if anyone is willing to lend me any amount of btc, even 0.0000001, i will pay you back 5x the amount + transaction fee if there is one.
  85. 01:40:03 (442) <dirtysocks> [img]
  86. 01:40:26 (147985) <Heathen> wersity, go to btcjam.com an get a rep. someone will lend you coin there
  87. 01:40:35 (189599) <werslty> ok thanks
  88. 01:41:12 (10473) <martiz> or to peerbet.org @werslty
  89. 01:41:31 (10473) <martiz> there are some bots which can spend some satoshis for you
  90. 01:42:13 (10473) <martiz> sorry for that link, doog... if you don't mind :)
  91. 01:44:28 (189678) <sketch> wtf is that btcjam
  92. 01:44:37 (189678) <sketch> i just clicked and see some obvious scam accounts
  93. 01:45:50 (10473) <martiz> that btcjam.com? @sketch
  94. 01:46:45 (187102) <cody> i heard it is a trainwreck
  95. 01:46:52 (189678) <sketch> yes martiz
  96. 01:46:56 (147985) <Heathen> if you think its a scan then do not lend to them.. easy
  97. 01:47:06 (189678) <sketch> oh wow, that's easy
  98. 01:47:07 (143789) <dammmmit> lol @ poker http://weaktight.com/6171824
  99. 01:47:26 (147985) <Heathen> but tell me.. how are you going to get scammed by BORROWING coin?
  100. 01:47:37 (189678) <sketch> blatant fake accounts lending to each other
  101. 01:47:46 (10473) <martiz> well... i heard some good ones and also bad ones... these stories about btcjam, so be wary...
  102. 01:47:48 (189678) <sketch> why would i want to borrow coins?
  103. 01:48:03 (189678) <sketch> I'm talking about lending
  104. 01:48:09 (147985) <Heathen> <werslty> [1AyDkAhP] Sorry to be a bother, but if anyone is willing to lend me any amount of btc, even 0.0000001, i will pay you back 5x the amount + transaction fee if there is one.
  105. 01:48:18 (189678) <sketch> no way
  106. 01:48:19 (147985) <Heathen> that guy wanted to borrow coin
  107. 01:48:23 (189678) <sketch> go home beggar
  108. 01:48:24 (442) <dirtysocks> ah now i get it, the mode for generating rolls has changed
  109. 01:48:38 (147985) <Heathen> sketch stop being retarded
  110. 01:48:44 (189678) <sketch> stop begging
  111. 01:48:55 (147985) <Heathen> again stop being a retard
  112. 01:48:59 (189678) <sketch> not tolerate any beggars
  113. 01:49:06 (147985) <Heathen> OMFG
  114. 01:49:08 (189678) <sketch> good day sir
  115. 01:49:16 (147985) <Heathen> go back and read it again
  116. 01:49:22 (147985) <Heathen> stupid fucker
  117. 01:49:42 (10473) <martiz> then just ignore and play quietly... is that _so_ difficult?
  118. 01:49:54 (188732) <amberjack> heathen do you live in an alley? if not you dont need donations
  119. 01:50:09 (147985) <Heathen> non of you can read
  120. 01:50:10 (100682) <flames> he still wanting more
  121. 01:50:22 (100682) <flames> i already flicked him some
  122. 01:50:28 (10473) <martiz> sadly true, heathen :S
  123. 01:50:33 (147985) <Heathen> i simple pasted unaother comment.. i'm not asking for anything
  124. 01:50:41 (188732) <amberjack> lending begging what the fuck ever you dont have money and you want some, talk to klye and see if you're in a crap spot or not
  125. 01:50:50 (189678) <sketch> Heathen nobody is gonna give you money
  126. 01:51:03 (189678) <sketch> klye may buy you pizza if you really in a spot of bother
  127. 01:51:03 (169827) <yesno> sketch you are incredibly stupid
  128. 01:51:14 (10473) <martiz> pals.... just... stop it.... now.... please
  129. 01:51:20 (169827) <yesno> :)
  130. 01:51:35 (189678) <sketch> yes. it's over, now you understand the ground rules we'll speak no more on this topic
  131. 01:51:58 (100682) <flames> how bout the weather aye
  132. 01:52:11 (98066) <Nix> sketch I think heathen had copy pasted what another member had typed. Just saying dude
  133. 01:52:14 (189678) <sketch> uh
  134. 01:52:19 (169827) <yesno> haha
  135. 01:52:16 (189678) <sketch> bup
  136. 01:52:18 (189678) <sketch> finito
  137. 01:52:42 (147985) <Heathen> retard
  138. 01:52:43 (100682) <flames> yea it was werslty asking for coin
  139. 01:52:52 (189678) <sketch> I'm pretty sure it was heathen
  140. 01:53:07 (147985) <Heathen> nope, go back and read it
  141. 01:53:10 (189678) <sketch> sorry but your dumb as hell....
  142. 01:53:24 (169827) <yesno> sketch, you should gamble for a bit to cool down
  143. 01:53:24 (147985) <Heathen> try real hard to read all of the words
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