[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:09 PM
yo
BusaRider - Today at 12:09 PM
o7
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:09 PM
is smartbombing rogue sites a thing?
BusaRider - Today at 12:09 PM
yea
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:09 PM
like, you can kill the site by doing it?
BusaRider - Today at 12:10 PM
they all just come right into the smartbombs
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:10 PM
ah cool, til
BusaRider - Today at 12:10 PM
takes like 3 minutes
but kills even the small ones
and all 5 smartbombers get teh things in the sidebar (like the mini skill injector
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:11 PM
so this never comes up on havens because you fly off the point to smartbomb, but bombing the warpin point on rogue sites unfortunately has to put you at fault for alpha'd vni's I'm afraid
the sites might be off dscan, someone might initiate warp at the same time, etc, there's no sure way for a passerby to protect themselves
you're welcome to keep smartbombing them, but if you accidentially kill people also trying to run them you do need to reimburse the losses
BusaRider - Today at 12:12 PM
because they warp into a site i was in?
how does that make since?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:13 PM
12:11 PM] [TEST] Dran Arcana: so this never comes up on havens because you fly off the point to smartbomb, but bombing the warpin point on rogue sites unfortunately has to put you at fault for alpha'd vni's I'm afraid
[12:12 PM] [TEST] Dran Arcana: the sites might be off dscan, someone might initiate warp at the same time, etc, there's no sure way for a passerby to protect themselves
BusaRider - Today at 12:13 PM
the guy today came in when i was on the second to last wave
so.. if this is correct...
than if someone warps to a haven
when im startign it up
and dies
because i actavate my smartbombs on land
and then boat in
its my fault?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:14 PM
don't you fly off the point to where they spawn?  isn't that how that works?
and yeah that is how it works
BusaRider - Today at 12:15 PM
how are you goignt o protect smartbombers from vnis just gettign killed on purpose
?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:15 PM
if people feed on purpose it'll be pretty obvious
how many VNIs have you accidentally killed?
BusaRider - Today at 12:16 PM
3
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:16 PM
over the course of... how long?
BusaRider - Today at 12:17 PM
1 monthj
almost to teh day
https://zkillboard.com/character/2112197677/
zkillboard.com
Yechezkel Iskowitz | Character
Yechezkel Iskowitz: 11 ships destroyed and 19 ships lost.

[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:17 PM
seems like a reasonable baseline
see, it'll be pretty obvious if people start feeding
BusaRider - Today at 12:18 PM
so ... whats your resolution? since, this dude isnt going to be happy... i talked to ion and he told me last time that i didnt ahve to worry about ppl coming to my sites...
i dont shoot ppl
i dont purposly kill them
they come to em
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:19 PM
just reimburse the guy's VNI is all I'm looking for
BusaRider - Today at 12:19 PM
when i go to sites that others are in
i leave
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:19 PM
I know it wasn't on purpose
BusaRider - Today at 12:19 PM
i dont sit there with 0 velocity
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:19 PM
I did the math
he didn't have time to warp off
if he did I wouldn't be making you pay the loss
you alpha'd him
BusaRider - Today at 12:20 PM
so its alpha if he cant tank till he leaves?
till he can leave * sorry?
just trying to figure it out
because he was there for a good 5 seconds
minimum
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:21 PM
I suspect he was there for exactly 7.5 seconds
because that's exactly how long it took you to kill him lol
BusaRider - Today at 12:21 PM
prolly more liek 8 or 9 since my smartbombs cycle every 7 secs
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:22 PM
he had 14k ehp to em, you do 12k per cycle
so the first recycle of bombs killed him, exactly 7.5s after the first bomb hit, which is the second he exits warp
human reaction time isn't that good
BusaRider - Today at 12:22 PM
so.. it doesnt matter the ammt of time it took me to kill him.. it matters that he cant leave in that ammt of time?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:23 PM
when determining liability, yeah that was my thinking
like if he ate 30s of smartbombs like a retard I wouldn't put that on you
but he warped in and died, and no amount of reaction time could have saved him
BusaRider - Today at 12:23 PM
i mean.. there wasnt anythign i could do
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:24 PM
there wasn't anything he could do either
BusaRider - Today at 12:24 PM
i have 4 smartbombers to cycle thru i got 2 of them turned off
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:24 PM
that's why it's on you
BusaRider - Today at 12:24 PM
it just bothers me that its on me for is mistake of warping to someone elses site
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:24 PM
I get that
BusaRider - Today at 12:24 PM
from the test ruels is its yours when you land 1st
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:25 PM
but under normal circumstances a guy lands, sees someone there, and sticks around for like 10s to find a new site right?
that's how it goes
if he flies into the center of a haven and dies to your bombs that's on him
but if he lands on your bombs that's on you
BusaRider - Today at 12:25 PM
so... whats teh resolution? for this? and then.. whats teh president that this sets? are you goign to chagne teh rules to add this so its not an anomoly?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:25 PM
it'd be the same as if you were to sit on a gate smartbombing inties
if you accidentially bombed a blue inty, I'd make you pay it
BusaRider - Today at 12:26 PM
siting on a gate is not the same
im out here in a site tryign to make money
he is doing the same
so i get to lose money for his loss .. for his inability to dscan .. or tank or what ever..
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:26 PM
right, but you don't HAVE to do it in a way that can instant kill blues
BusaRider - Today at 12:26 PM
i mean im fine with taking my licks..
and ill pay him what you tell me to
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:27 PM
you're not in trouble
I'm just talking things through
BusaRider - Today at 12:27 PM
i just want it to be documented so that others (i have bread 4-5 otehr smartbomb teams) know this aswell
because i was under the assumption taht its my site
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:27 PM
this is honestly the first time it has ever come up
at least to my knowledge
BusaRider - Today at 12:27 PM
i was under the assumption from my leadership aswell
last time ion told the guy it was my site
guy fucked off
end of it
this time guy did the same
same thing happend
then he went to you
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:28 PM
the site is yours yeah, but that doesn't give you the right to kill blues, accedentially or otherwise
BusaRider - Today at 12:28 PM
so... ill do what you want.. because i love test.. i just think there should be something .. to protect both sides
so.. what if
this happens
a guy has a site
right?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:29 PM
I'm always open to suggestions
BusaRider - Today at 12:29 PM
a vni in a haven
and he cant kill the dread
he leaves it there
goes to another haven
spawns another dread
smartbomber logs in
warps to dreadspawn #1
warps off
to dreadspawn #2
dies
who's fault is it?
vni's or smartbobmers?
because that shit happened to me ...
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:30 PM
doesn't the dread take like 10s to lock?
just warp off
BusaRider - Today at 12:30 PM
https://zkillboard.com/kill/66736730/
zkillboard.com
Nightmare | Busa Rider | Killmail
Busa Rider (Alcoholocaust.) lost their Nightmare in BZ-0GW (Esoteria). Final Blow by Taking Your Havens (Alcoholocaust.) flying in a Machariel. Total Value: 1,177,832,428.51 ISK

i tried .. the 2nd time i bumbped and my mjd was gone from the 1st
but thats beyond this convorsation
i just bought a new one and went on with my life
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:31 PM
ok so in that case, it's on you for warping at 0 and bumping
BusaRider - Today at 12:31 PM
wich is what i would think this vni pilot would do
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:31 PM
that's something you can prevent 100% of the time by warping at 10
BusaRider - Today at 12:32 PM
bumping on teh site
you cant warp smartbombers to 10
you will die
you need to be on the gate at 0 before the 1st wave spawns
its only an issue when they are prespawned with dread .. by ships that cant deal with the dread
i deal with the dread by killing the last wave.. this despawnign teh dread
eitehr way...
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:33 PM
that seems like an incredibly niche situation, also impossible to prove who spawned the thing
all I'm trying to do is enforce the test bylaws consistently
BusaRider - Today at 12:34 PM
whats the resolution for this incident?
and is anythign going to be put on teh wiki
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:34 PM
and in that case, when nobody's at fault and the bluekill is an accident, the responsibility falls on the person who pushed the button
no
this is a consistent enforcement of the rules we have in place
BusaRider - Today at 12:34 PM
so nothing is going to tell any other smartbomber that theya re at fault for stupid vni's
my smartbombs reach haven spawns if they warp at 0
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:35 PM
I would argue that everyone in test should always know that they're always responsible for reimbursing blue kills
BusaRider - Today at 12:35 PM
so if a vni warps to my haven at 0 i have to pay him back?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:35 PM
yes
BusaRider - Today at 12:35 PM
so the issue presists?
my issue with it is
theres ppl in test taht rat in only vni's
i was one for a long time
they rat in haves..
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:36 PM
they are allowed to
BusaRider - Today at 12:36 PM
some of them* rat in havens
yes
under the rules they can
but they are incurraged not it
to*
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:37 PM
c
BusaRider - Today at 12:37 PM
so .. when smartbobmers that can only run rock havens
come in to a system
or are tehre for 8 hours a day
vni's run ahvens intermitently
thrughout the day
so if one was to be retarted and warp to 0 and die
during my 8 -12 hours i rat
im resopncipal for it
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:38 PM
yes
BusaRider - Today at 12:38 PM
because he can rat in havens
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:38 PM
nobody is forcing you to rat in a niche way
BusaRider - Today at 12:38 PM
ccp is
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:38 PM
the same would be true if a guy killed a carrier by bosoning rock havens
nobody is forcing you to rat in a way that can accidentally kill blues
BusaRider - Today at 12:39 PM
nobody else thinks it my fault
is the thing
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:39 PM
I don't think it's anyone's fault
BusaRider - Today at 12:39 PM
otehr than the guy that dies
so...
im just asking for a clarification put out so everyone knows how it works
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:40 PM
but when nobody is at fault, the responsibility of an accident falls on the person that chose to create the danger
BusaRider - Today at 12:40 PM
because if its not my fault i dont think i should be the one reimbursing him
(i will )
but i dont feel that its fair
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:40 PM
[12:40 PM] [TEST] Dran Arcana: but when nobody is at fault, the responsibility of an accident falls on the person that chose to create the danger
BusaRider - Today at 12:41 PM
ok.. well than put somethign like that out there so we can all be on the same page
because i was reassured by my corp leadership taht i wasnt goignt o be resopncibal
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:42 PM
it doesn;t need to be out there, that's consistent with how we've always done things
if a guy bosons someone as a joke not expecting to kill them, and they kill them, they pay the loss.  If someone smartbomb camps a gate and kills a blue they pay the loss, if someone bombs blues on a non-alliance-srp'd fleet they pay the loss
this is consistent enforcement
BusaRider - Today at 12:43 PM
yes
all of these things tho
are people doing things they shouldnt
not people ratting
making a livving
i dont smartbomb on gates
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:44 PM
smartbomb camping gates is something you shouldn't do?
BusaRider - Today at 12:44 PM
not in blue space
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:44 PM
attempting to bomb enemy fleets is not somehting you should do?
BusaRider - Today at 12:44 PM
so
ok
if predds bombs and enemy fleet
and hits some blues
its on the predds members who killed the blues to repay them?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:45 PM
no
the alliance pays
because it's an alliance-srp'd op
but if it was a non-stratop
like a fun fleet or something
absolutely
functionally I suppose you could think of it like the preds member pais the loss, and the alliance pays the preds member
for an accidental bombing
just like an fc accidentally welping
when the alliance SRPs an op we take financial responsibility for the mistakes of our fleet
BusaRider - Today at 12:47 PM
ok.. so there you go
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:44 PM
attempting to bomb enemy fleets is not somehting you should do?
so predds shouldnt bomb fleets unless its a test supported op?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:48 PM
when preds bombs blues we've always paid the losses
BusaRider - Today at 12:48 PM
were gettign off topic again tho
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:48 PM
in an op, it's been by the alliance
when it's not, it's been by preds
yeah
BusaRider - Today at 12:48 PM
so
what do i owe
is it like allience srp
where i pay a precent?
or do i have to pay the full zkill ammt?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:49 PM
typically for blueshoots we take market value and assume 0 insurance
full zkill is what we do most of the time unless there's something weird or hard to acquire that makes it not a good value
BusaRider - Today at 12:49 PM
i feel like your setting s presedent tho
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:49 PM
full zkill would do in this instance
BusaRider - Today at 12:50 PM
whata bout his pod?
if he was mashing warp
pods are insta warp
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:50 PM
have you ever died to a smartbomb gatecamp?
you cannot get your pod out 99% of the time
BusaRider - Today at 12:50 PM
because your trying to jump a gate
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:50 PM
I don't think I ever have
BusaRider - Today at 12:50 PM
different mechanic
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:51 PM
no, I know the theory
spam ctrl space while you're loading grid
and spam warp
to something else
I try it every time
I've never lived
also wasn't the pod like 700k isk?
BusaRider - Today at 12:52 PM
yes.. but who is to say next time
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:52 PM
it was empty sans a 1% cpu implant
BusaRider - Today at 12:52 PM
this is setting the presedent
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:52 PM
this is the risk you assume smartbomb ratting
if you do not want to assume this risk, do not smartbomb rat
BusaRider - Today at 12:52 PM
it should be tghe risk you assume by warping to a site you cant dscan
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:52 PM
there are better ways to make money
BusaRider - Today at 12:53 PM
it "should" be on him
there arent better ways to make money
show me a way to make 175m per tick
super rattign.. ? nope
done that
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:53 PM
13 afk vnis
BusaRider - Today at 12:53 PM
who's to say i dont ahve 13 afk vni's
it would be more liek 25 tbh because you dont factor in plex
i plex 5 toons to rat.. not 14
13*
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:54 PM
you're the one who limited the scope to ratting
per toon you can make better than that non-ratting
BusaRider - Today at 12:55 PM
the conversation is about ratting
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:55 PM
no, it's about isk making
BusaRider - Today at 12:55 PM
the issue resides with ratting
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:55 PM
hell, I make ~15b/mo for 10 minutes of effort a day market trading
BusaRider - Today at 12:55 PM
the issue resides with now if i want to piss off my local smartbombers
ill just whelp my vni's to them
and take their ticks away
untill they move
because im not moving
its teh president your setting
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:56 PM
if someone feeds repteatedly they will be dealt with
BusaRider - Today at 12:56 PM
alts?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:56 PM
we've gone all the way up until now without this becoming an issue
I have faith we will continue
BusaRider - Today at 12:56 PM
i dont
so.. next time
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:56 PM
then I suppose if I'm wrong we'll have another conversation about it
BusaRider - Today at 12:57 PM
bnecause theres a next time
in prolly 2-3 weeks max
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:57 PM
next time you are expected to reimburse the loss
BusaRider - Today at 12:57 PM
so tehn
how are you goign to kno
when they whelp to me
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:57 PM
well you said they happen about 3 times a month when you're not paying losses
BusaRider - Today at 12:57 PM
and with other toons
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:57 PM
so lets say if it happens 6 times in a month it's probably something suspect
BusaRider - Today at 12:58 PM
or if its always from one corp?
i just feel liek your openign a can of worms
for all teh smartbombers
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:58 PM
nobody is forcing you to smartbomb
BusaRider - Today at 12:58 PM
no one is forcing them to vni rat
no one is forcing them to warp to my site
untill now it has been on them to make sure that the site is empty
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:59 PM
you're being intentionally obstanent at this point
BusaRider - Today at 12:59 PM
now it on me to amke sure that i dont kill them?
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 12:59 PM
please SRP the loss
BusaRider - Today at 12:59 PM
i will
i have told you at least 5 times
that i will srp it
im just saying its bullshit
it will remain bullshit
[TEST] Dran Arcana - Today at 1:00 PM
your objection has been more than sufficiently noted
BusaRider - Today at 1:02 PM
done ... now you have set teh president.. we will more than likely be talkign in a few weeks