Vaccinations - March 2013

Aug 8th, 2014
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  2. Q: Vaccine info resources
  4. Natalie Metz
  6. Message 1 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013[-- Image: Frame1 --]
  10. View Source
  12. Greetings!
  14. Does anyone have a recommendation about resources for informing
  15. new parents about vaccination options/considerations?
  17. I have attended a few webinars in the last few years, but I am
  18. looking for something that non-medically educated folks could
  19. reference online or in a book (beyond Dr. Sears). 
  21. Thank you!
  23. Sincerely,
  25. Dr. Natalie
  27. -- 
  28. Dr. Natalie Metz
  29. Licensed Naturopathic Doctor
  33. 415.797.7288
  35. "...the Doctors of the Future will give no Medicine, they will
  36. interest their patients in the care of the human frame, in
  37. diet, and in the causes and prevention of disease..."
  39. -adapted from Thomas Edison
  41. ballard2doc
  43. Message 2 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013[-- Image: Frame2 --]
  47. View Source
  49. Hi Natalie,
  51. In addition to Dr. Sear's materials, which I find very helpful,
  52. here are some common resources that I also find helpful for
  53. parents, although I will disclose that I am generally
  54. supportive of vaccination: 
  55. 1)
  56. 2) Children's Hospital of
  57. Philadelphia:
  58. 3)
  60. -Jonathan Bell, ND
  62. drdougcutler
  64. Message 3 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013[-- Image: Frame3 --]
  68. View Source
  70. Hi Natalie,
  72. I appreciate Jonathan's disclosure, the same needs to be done
  73. with a couple of his resources.
  75. receives their funding from the following Big
  76. Pharma companies who make the majority of vaccines. Of course,
  77. they say it has "no influence" on the content. They also have
  78. on their advisory board, the likes of Paul Offit.
  80. 2013: CSL Biotherapies / GlaxoSmithKline / MedImmune, Inc. /
  81. Merck Sharp & Dohme Corp. / Novartis Vaccines / Ortho Clinical
  82. Diagnostics, Inc. / Pfizer Inc. / sanofi pasteur
  84. is also heavily funded by Big Pharma with Paul Offit
  85. (who works @ chop) reviewing the vaccine information. The
  86. material that they provide to the public is misleading and
  87. inaccurate. i.e. (babies receive more aluminum from breast milk
  88. than vaccines and comparing injected aluminum to ingested
  89. aluminum).
  91. Personally, I find most mothers (parents) who do their own
  92. research know more about vaccines than 98% of the doctors out
  93. there. No lie.
  95. Parents will eventually be exposed to both sides of the debate,
  96. but before that happens, I recommend researching the actual
  97. vaccine inserts – each one is listed free online. FDA
  98. source:
  100. Then research the actual ingredients for each vaccine. More
  101. determined parents who want to know what is injected into their
  102. baby will then independently research each ingredient. CDC
  103. source:
  106. My disclosure, I am opposed to all sources of toxins therefore I
  107. am against vaccines whose one size approach fails to account
  108. nutritional statuses, toxic burden of mom/child and genetic
  109. polymorphisms that are at epidemic levels. 10 vaccines from
  110. birth to 6 years in 1983 and 36-38 vaccines from birth to 6
  111. years in 2010. Insane.
  113. Regards,
  115. Doug Cutler, ND
  116. Southfield, MI
  117. O: 248-971-3866
  120. Hanalei Roberts
  122. Message 4 of 14 , Mar 26, 2013[-- Image: Frame4 --]
  126. View Source
  128.  An option I find easy to navigate and calculate from is the
  129. vaccine ingredient calculator at
  130. the It is based on the insert
  131. information Dr. Culter was talking about. The site it is on,
  132., is def biased against vac, but I would give your
  133. patient both sides of resources on this controversial
  134. subject(if you can stand to!). The calculator is nice if you
  135. are doing an alternative schedule or you want to find the brand
  136. of a vaccine that has less toxins.  I find vaccines mostly
  137. criminal and less than useful so of course I am biased on this
  138. issue. For my patients that want to use them I encourage them
  139. to do an alternate schedule, use the calculator to find the
  140. least toxic ones/combos, use vaccisheild, and never give a sick
  141. child vaccines.
  142. Hana Roberts ND
  144.  Kapaau/Waimea HI
  146. ballard2doc
  148. Message 5 of 14 , Mar 27, 2013[-- Image: Frame5 --]
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  154. Natalie,
  156. It seems you opened a can of worms. I don't have the time or
  157. energy for getting into yet another war about vaccination. A
  158. quick search of NatChat is sufficient to address much of this
  159. controversy. As physicians we need to always update our
  160. knowledge and question our personal dogma/bias, or we risk
  161. losing the objectivity inherent in our role. For the record, I
  162. am committed to this process and will keep an open mind. I
  163. suggest the same to those of us that are "anti-vaccine".
  165. Here is a great essay for patients and physicians about making
  166. vaccine decisions, forwarded to me recently from a brilliant ND
  167. researcher, Ather Ali, that I think will provide interest:
  170. For those interested in vaccine safety in general- while it is
  171. true that there is a lot we still don't know about longterm
  172. vaccine safety, at the least we can evaluate the evidence that
  173. exists. Here is a useful independent report on the state of
  174. evidence re: vaccine safety, from the Institute of Medicine:
  177. RE: Dr. Cutler's aluminum adjuvant safety concern- it is
  178. generally agreed across the immunization world that continued
  179. study needs to be done. However, as Dr. Cutler cites the FDA, I
  180. will provide their following report finding, "Aluminum in
  181. Vaccines Poses Extremely Low Risk to Infants"
  183. If interested in the concern regarding aluminum safety in
  184. vaccines, here is what Dr. Sears' concern
  185. is:
  187. -Jonathan Bell, ND
  189. drdougcutler
  191. Message 6 of 14 , Mar 28, 2013[-- Image: Frame6 --]
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  197. For the record: The Adverse Effects of Vaccines: Evidence and
  198. Causality (2012) by the Institute of Medicine is far from an
  199. "independent review". More specifically, it is an endless
  200. conflict of interests at nauseating levels.
  202. The National Vaccine Program Office (part of the committee) is
  203. funded by the following: Biotechnology Industry Organization
  204. sponsored by AstraZeneca, Genentech, MERCK, Pfizer, Sanofi. All
  205. vaccine manufactures.
  207. & PhRMA (Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America):
  208. Too many to list:
  210. The authors in the committee listed in Appendix F have endless
  211. Big Pharma connections: i.e. Novartis, Sanofi, etc.
  213. A more appropriate title should be: "Big Pharma's review of
  214. their own vaccines".
  216. And from the "Concluding Comments" (a very odd & vague read):
  217. "This report is not intended to answer the question: are
  218. vaccines safe;". Then what was the point wasting our tax
  219. dollars that had direct Big Pharma influence? How about real
  220. independent studies?
  222. Jonathan, you also stated: "it is generally agreed across the
  223. immunization world that continued study needs to be done."
  225. Agreed. But the sad reality, is that the "study" is being
  226. performed today with our children as the guinea pigs.
  227. Absolutely shameful that the biggest medical fraud (perpetuated
  228. by Big Pharma) continues to indoctrinate the public ("milk does
  229. a body good") that vaccines are safe and effective. As you
  230. stated, we still don't know the longterm vaccine safety so
  231. hoping that they are safe and effective for the "greater good"
  232. is unacceptable and completely immoral until we fully know.
  234. You are right though, we need to question our personal
  235. "dogma/bias". I fully believed in vaccines until my intimate
  236. association with hundreds of mothers that had vaccine injured
  237. children, changed that entire belief set completely around. The
  238. same amazing mothers that knew more about vaccines than any
  239. doctor or scientist out there, hands down. Then with my
  240. training and knowledge of environmental toxins, just analyzing
  241. the actual ingredients of each vaccine, one by one - I could
  242. never in good conscience justify those known toxic ingredients
  243. to have a free pass directly (no detox roadblocks) to a baby's
  244. brain.
  246. Regards,
  248. Doug Cutler, ND
  249. Southfield, MI
  250. O: 248-663-0165
  253. ballard2doc
  255. Message 7 of 14 , Mar 28, 2013[-- Image: Frame7 --]
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  261. "Vaccines are not evil". They are just tools- and they have a
  262. place in naturopathy. The idea is to provide experiential
  263. education for the immune system.
  265. So again the vaccination debate comes to the same place that all
  266. anti-vac argument goes- a conspiracy by the pharmaceutical
  267. companies to make money at the expense of our children. Yes,
  268. they have a bias to make money (like Nutraceutical companies,
  269. eh? How many of you derive $ directly from the sale of
  270. supplements?). Yes, they have the money to do the studies. I
  271. agree with you that capitalism is an obstacle to cure, in many
  272. other ways beyond vaccines. But no, this bias does not
  273. completely stop us from analyzing the data and controlling for
  274. confounders. How are you going to obtain the data you are
  275. requesting - how do you propose to design studies in the
  276. capitalistic reality that we live in? How do we answer the
  277. safety questions unless we move forward? More $ is spent on
  278. vaccine safety than any other pharmaceutical/nutraceutical,
  279. that's a fact.
  281. Yes, RARE adverse effects have occurred from vaccines, that is
  282. an established fact. However, the benefits of vaccination far
  283. outweigh the risks. Are we to stop all vaccination and return
  284. to pre-vaccine era disease rates? Please tell me that you don't
  285. actually believe that changes in sanitation, colonics and
  286. supplements, will protect children from HIB, pneumo, Pertussis,
  287. etc...? That's an antiquated idea. Are we to dissuade our
  288. patients from vaccinating, only so that they can benefit from
  289. the rest of the public responsibly vaccinating. "Community
  290. Immunity" only works if we all participate. Participating in
  291. anti-vaccination is truly "unethical" to my physician's mind.
  293. My experience is apparently different than you, Doug. I, who
  294. immunize children daily and participate in the federal Vaccines
  295. for Children program, have never seen a major adverse effect
  296. from vaccination. Although I know it occurs, rarely. I have
  297. seen some minor rashes, elevated temps, but that's it. I do
  298. want vaccines to develop and become safer. They already have-
  299. there was more antigenic load from the single dose of Smallpox
  300. vaccine then there is now from all of the routine children's
  301. vaccines put together. Yes there are "toxins" in vaccines:
  302. adjuvants and preservatives in vaccines to make them work
  303. better and minimize risk of infection (before preservatives
  304. people died from contamination in vaccines). I look forward to
  305. continued progress in the evolution of the field of
  306. "immunization"- as in if homeopathy, Nosodes and any other form
  307. of "immunization" proves more safe and effective than
  308. conventional "Vaccination" then I will surely adopt these
  309. measures. I am looking forward to Dr. Jared Zeff's study in
  310. this area. 
  312. Again, I don't want to cause ire but I think placating
  313. anti-vaccination isn't responsible for our community and does
  314. nothing to further the profession,
  315. Jonathan
  317. loreendawson
  319. Message 8 of 14 , Mar 28, 2013[-- Image: Frame8 --]
  323. View Source
  325. Hi Jonathan
  326. I found your observation very curious. My practice is primarily
  327. focused on treating older adults, with children making up less
  328. than 5% of my patients, yet I have seen quite a few children
  329. whose parents claim profound changes in behaviour and cognition
  330. after vaccination. I am not talking about short term fevers and
  331. red spots, but quite significant, long term effects.
  333. I would be interested in hearing from those docs who primarily
  334. treat children. What do you see?
  336. I am also wondering, Jonathon, if you do some type of supportive
  337. care when you vaccinate which may be mitigating these effects.
  339. Loreen Dawson, ND
  340. Sechelt, BC
  342. Eric Blake
  344. Message 9 of 14 , Mar 28, 2013[-- Image: Frame9 --]
  348. View Source
  350. Jonathan- you raise some very interesting points, and adopt a
  351. position that opens you to criticism from your colleagues. 
  353. Not an easy path. 
  355. Asking naturopaths to accept vaccinations is comparable in my
  356. mind to asking dentists to give up amalgams.  It touches on
  357. some very deep beliefs in the professional group :)
  359. I for one am interested in your observations.
  361. best
  363. Dr. Eric Blake
  364. Naturopathic Physician and Diplomate of Acupuncture
  366. drdougcutler
  368. Message 10 of 14 , Mar 28, 2013[-- Image: Frame10 --]
  372. View Source
  374. Where is the "conspiracy"? 
  376. I specifically showed the majority of your sources to be heavily
  377. influenced by Big Pharma. This is Basic Research:101 and we have
  378. to acknowledge that these conflict of interests do not belong in
  379. the naturopathic community that strives for honesty, the highest
  380. ethics and truth. It is your responsibility to fully disclose
  381. these conflicts, I don't appreciate that I have to do this for
  382. you and then have you turn around and describe it as "placating
  383. anti-vaccination".
  385. It is an apple to oranges fallacy to compare vaccine
  386. manufacturers to nutraceutical companies. We are discussing
  387. vaccines; they are on trial, not nutrients. Feel free to make
  388. another topic about nutrients and how there is an "epidemic" of
  389. harm that they are causing to our children.
  391. Let's be clear, the questions that you are asking aren't up to
  392. me to answer or anyone reading this topic. They should have
  393. already been thoroughly answered before we started to inject a
  394. cocktail of poison into our children. To ask these questions
  395. decades later is very revealing and oh I don't know, a problem?
  397. I appreciate your opinions Jonathan, but I don't appreciate that
  398. you have to capitalize "rare" especially when you have
  399. acknowledged that there hasn't been sufficient or long-term
  400. studies. You can't live in both worlds. 
  402. But I understand where you are coming from, with the small
  403. window of discussion; I can see/sense your deep-seated doubts
  404. that you don't recognize. I encourage to let those doubts grow,
  405. follow your own advice and question what you think you know,
  406. then they will uncomfortably blossom as truth.
  408. As a former die-hard vaxapologist, it was slowly painful to
  409. accept I was completely wrong. I once mocked the "crazies" of
  410. the anti-vaccine movement, and believed my own future children
  411. were going to be vaccinated until these mothers convinced me
  412. otherwise. And of course, you have "never seen a major adverse
  413. effect", you don't go home with these parents after you inject
  414. or follow the long-term consequences. These parents saw the
  415. changes happen right before their eyes and I have cried with
  416. them when these "rare" reactions in their children are
  417. ignorantly discounted and not attributed to vaccines by their
  418. doctors. Vaccine injuries today are described as "coincidences"
  419. every single time. Friendly advice, never look into these
  420. mother's eyes and tell them that their vaccine-injured children
  421. was just a "RARE" event.
  423. "It is impossible to identify all rare adverse events or to
  424. identify the safest vaccine combinations prior to licensure."
  425. Robert Chen, chief of vaccine safety and development activity
  426. at the USA National Immunisation Program of the Center for
  427. Disease Control, Conference Coverage (ECPI Combination
  428. Vaccines). CDC Sharpens Tools for Vaccine-Safety Surveillance.
  429. Vaccine Weekly, May 25th, 1998.
  431. The result? Our little ones are the guinea pigs as we ignorantly
  432. throw out the "rare" event mantra when thousands of vaccine
  433. injured families are left to struggle on their own. Children
  434. deserve better!
  436. The "vaccines ended infectious disease" myth, is just that, a
  437. myth. The credit goes to increased nutrition, better hygiene
  438. practices, better sanitation, and cleaner water. I understand
  439. that the vaccine religion has rewritten history, but it is
  440. ridiculous to believe that the doctrine of vaccination should
  441. not be challenged. Quite the contrary, it should be questioned,
  442. it should be confronted and I wholeheartedly believe it should
  443. be mocked for what it is, a fraud.
  445. Seriously, when did we as a species start developing
  446. deficiencies for aluminum, thimerosal, yellow #6, formaldehyde,
  447. polysorbate 80, octylphenol ethoxylate, MSG, gelatin, neomycin,
  448. bovine calf serum, hexadecyltrimethylammonium bromide, monkey
  449. kidney cells, human diploid cells (WI-38, MRC-5) from aborted
  450. fetuses, triton x-100, and insect cells? All found in vaccines.
  451. Can you even imagine drinking this odd cocktail of poison even
  452. if it was in so called "small amounts"? Yet, we blindly inject
  453. it? Insane.
  455. This is not new, the vaccine debate has been going on for
  456. hundreds of years. Sadly, we never learn from history, but I
  457. assure you that none of us will want to end up on the wrong
  458. side of history with this issue.
  460. "Vaccination is a monstrosity, a misbegotten offspring of error
  461. and ignorance; and, being such, it should have no place in
  462. either hygiene or medicine....Believe not in vaccination, it is
  463. a world-wide delusion, an unscientific practice, a fatal
  464. superstition with consequences measured today by tears and
  465. sorrow without end." - Carlo Ruta. 1896. Professor of Materia
  466. Medica at the University of Perugia, Italy.
  468. Regards,
  470. Doug Cutler, ND
  471. Southfield, MI
  472. O: 248-663-0165
  475. Maria Cronyn
  477. Message 11 of 14 , Mar 28, 2013[-- Image: Frame11 --]
  481. View Source
  483. I don't really know why we are having this talk but hey!  Thanks
  484. for the info.
  486. I thought it was inherently known that there is risk,
  487. corruption, unsafe vaccines, and all kinds of snafu riddled
  488. stories of tainted batches and useless "research".
  490. Its like the twilight zone for me... have I stepped back in time
  491. to the 1960's?
  493. The propaganda is the safety, the conspiracy theorists do better
  494. science than the reps and researchers every day of the week.
  496. Believe it folks.
  498. -- 
  499. Dr Maria Cronyn
  501. 647.770.9674
  503. ballard2doc
  505. Message 12 of 14 , Mar 29, 2013[-- Image: Frame12 --]
  509. View Source
  511. Hi Loreen,
  512. The problem with attributing a vaccine with a suspected adverse
  513. effect comes down to "correlation vs causation". For instance,
  514. getting the flu from the flu vaccine- while many will come down
  515. with the flu in correlation with the vaccine, it isn't caused by
  516. the vaccine- it is all about timing. Thus I try to be careful
  517. with timing of immunization to limit correlation. Other than
  518. choosing healthy times to vaccinate I don't know of ways to
  519. minimize reactions beyond the known warnings and
  520. contraindications 
  522. drpetra13
  524. Message 13 of 14 , Apr 1, 2013[-- Image: Frame13 --]
  528. View Source
  530. Dr J Bell wrote: "'Vaccines are not evil'. They are just tools-
  531. and they have a place in naturopathy. The idea is to provide
  532. experiential education for the immune system."
  534. Generally speaking, a healthy person is less likely to develop
  535. severe illness from a vaccine-preventable infection. This grows
  536. much less likely as a person's overall level of health decreases
  537. from optimal, especially where he/she is also in contact with
  538. others who also maintain less than healthy lifestyles, eating
  539. less than ideal diets. 
  541. It may be easy to argue that vaccinating one's children may be
  542. unnecessary, or at most minimally necessary. However, the need
  543. for vaccination should always be re-evaluated when the
  544. circumstances change. Here is a real-life example. Children
  545. born into a rural family living on an organic farm, whose
  546. parents grow most of their own food and home-school them will
  547. have much more optimal health status and relatively low risk
  548. for exposure. On the other hand, should that family decide to
  549. go an adventure by traveling from northern to southern Africa
  550. in a rented van and eating local food along the way, and you
  551. have changed the risk picture entirely. Should this family
  552. vaccinate their three children (currently between the ages of
  553. 15 months and 5 years)? Fifteen years ago when I worked at the
  554. health department in Seattle, this family came in, with these
  555. travel plans. 
  557. I practice in a community where vaccination rates are among the
  558. lowest in the state. The community is tremendously diverse,
  559. with a wide range of racial/ethnic origin, income, and
  560. education levels. Many people incorporate very healthy diet and
  561. exercise patterns into their lifestyles. However, others eat
  562. very poorly, do not exercise, abuse drugs, are obese, or have
  563. diabetes or other health conditions that predispose to
  564. infectious disease. A few live in homes lacking working
  565. toilets, relying upon buckets they empty in their yards.
  567. In this community, very healthy and less-healthy children spend
  568. time together in school and community programs. There, they do
  569. what children do best - share, first with each other, then with
  570. their families. The result is that people get sick, very sick.
  571. While disproportionately those requiring hospitalization are
  572. those with risk factors of one kind or another, the healthy
  573. people get sick also. All have loved ones who care deeply about
  574. their recovery. 
  576. What is my point? I've seen severe vaccine-preventable disease
  577. and known others who survived life-threatening cases of these
  578. illnesses - measles encephalopathy, paralytic polio, bacterial
  579. meningitis (HiB and meningococcal), infantile pertussis,
  580. pre-natal rubella, and more. As a health care provider, if I
  581. have a way to prevent these terrible diseases, I will do that.
  582. Vaccines are an important tool, although certainly not the only
  583. one.
  585. Our patients live the lives they do, with the risk factors they
  586. have. Some are higher risk, others, lower risk. The more time
  587. they spend together, the more the risk of illness-sharing
  588. rises, as does the risk that a vaccine-preventable illness will
  589. touch their lives in one way or another. To that end, I
  590. vaccinate patients on a near daily basis during the colder
  591. months, less often during the warmer ones. I would love to see
  592. vaccines safer, as long as this may be accomplished without
  593. sacrificing efficacy along the way. In the interests of safety,
  594. my organization uses preservative-free preparations where
  595. available. My experience with adverse effects mirrors that of
  596. Dr Bell's: I have seen no serious reactions - nothing more
  597. severe than local reactions (sore arm) or the occasional
  598. low-grade fever with irritability.
  600. I realize that my comments are unlikely to convince anyone who
  601. has already come to a different conclusion about vaccines and
  602. vaccination. I ask that we all apply critical thinking to the
  603. information sources. There are valid concerns about bias on
  604. both sides of the debate. 
  606. Petra 
  608. Petra Eichelsdoerfer, ND,CN,RPh
  609. Bothell, WA
  611. drerikak
  613. Message 14 of 14 , May 6 11:40 PM[-- Image: Frame14 --]
  617. View Source
  619. Hi Natalie,
  621. I know this is a little late but I wanted to share it with you
  622. and the rest of NatChat...
  624. My vaccine webinar is finally done! It is available on my
  625. website for a very cheap $18 (considering the 70 hours and over
  626. 300 research articles I pulled for it). The link
  627. is:
  629. It is 100% research based, as unbiased as humanly possible (!).
  630. I present both sides of vaccine arguments, and there is a
  631. lengthy discussion of aluminum and its effects. There is also
  632. an e-book included that has the basics of each vaccine, disease
  633. info, adverse effects, etc, plus a vaccine planning worksheet. 
  635. Whew! This has been my baby for the last three months, I hope
  636. you guys can find it helpful. 
  638. Physicians can get $3 off (type Physician2013), I think it's
  639. worth it just for the aluminum conversation. 
  641. Sorry for the sales pitch! Hope you find it helpful though...
  643. -- 
  644. Erika Krumbeck, ND
  645. Naturopathic Physician
  646. Montana Whole Health
  648. (406) 552-5041
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