Political Analysis with fudge/commie

1:01:21 PM+fudgewhat? grow up, nobody is dossing you.
1:01:32 PM+fudgeMaybe your internet is being flaky
1:01:53 PM+fudgeA bad cnonection.
1:02:36 PM+fudgelol, they aren't gonna ddos JUST your connection to IRC
1:02:44 PM+fudgeSo you're having internet issues
1:06:50 PM+fudgehttps://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/1045766020500254721
1:07:33 PM+fudgeI mean, if it were a just world, perhaps Kavanaughs brain would make for an interest Jackson Pollock-like painting against the wall.
1:07:43 PM+fudgeinteresting*
1:08:41 PM+fudgehttps://twitter.com/voxdotcom/status/1045766020500254721
1:09:02 PM+chumpchangeno one's gonna waste a botnet on IRC tomfoolery
1:09:17 PM+chumpchangenot since about 1998
1:09:41 PM+fudgeYeah
1:10:57 PM+fudgeThey're not gonna just DDOS your connection specifically to IRC, that doesn't make sense.
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1:21:15 PM+fudgehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUFvG4RpwJI
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1:23:25 PM+InfiniteSpireProfFarnsworth: I'll take that operatorship...
1:23:28 PM+InfiniteSpire...with cheese.
1:23:34 PM* InfiniteSpire big ol' grin
1:25:28 PM+InfiniteSpireI really like Three Arrows.
1:25:37 PM+InfiniteSpireI have been quite impressed with his level of scholarship.
1:26:05 PM+InfiniteSpireHis analysis of Jordan Peterson's claims on Hitler and the real goals of Nazism was great.
1:26:42 PM+InfiniteSpire(His conclusion is that Jordan Peterson appears to be substantially uneducated as to the true ideology of Nazism -- as expressed in many of their founding and important documents.)
1:27:31 PM+InfiniteSpire(To wit, Nazis didn't kill Jews and Romani merely to cause chaos -- Jordan's assertion -- but because their metaphysics placed the Jew, especially, as an avatar or example of metaphysical darkness/sin/evil/greed in their dualistic Manichean worldview)
1:28:43 PM+InfiniteSpire(Jordan explicitly fell back on Skinnerean behaviorism of looking at the outcomes of their behavior to infer motive)
1:30:14 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: I like Vox a lot.
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1:33:03 PM+fudgeInfiniteSpire: Not a fan of Vox personally, I do like Three Arrows, but I don't tend to watch them too often.
1:33:24 PM+fudgeOne of the arrows is, of course, "down with communism" :P
1:33:35 PM+InfiniteSpireWhy are you not a fan of Vox?
1:34:34 PM+fudgeThe site Ezra Klein started?
1:35:23 PM+fudgeI just disagree with liberalism on many things and Vox is about as liberally liberal as it gets :P
1:35:25 PM+InfiniteSpireYou seem unsure what Vox is.
1:35:36 PM+fudgehttps://www.vox.com/
1:35:45 PM+InfiniteSpireWhat are your primary disagreements with Vox?
1:35:54 PM+InfiniteSpireIt is Ezra Klein's site, yes.
1:35:58 PM+fudgeIt's an article site, I just disagree with the voice and angle.
1:35:58 PM+InfiniteSpireThough, he has moved away from it somewhat.
1:36:03 PM+InfiniteSpireHe's now editor-at-large, I believe.
1:36:19 PM+InfiniteSpireI agree they're quite well in the "liberal" space.
1:36:39 PM+InfiniteSpireI think they generally feature a lot of empathy and reasonable intellectualism.
1:36:44 PM+InfiniteSpireI consider that gold at this point in history.
1:37:08 PM+InfiniteSpireI'm not certain what my largest disagreements with liberalism would be.
1:37:17 PM+InfiniteSpireI think it's fair to understand my politics, in part, with the term liberal.
1:37:30 PM+InfiniteSpireThough, I would of course want to use many words to describe my worldview -- political and otherwise.
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1:38:04 PM+InfiniteSpireAt times, for some liberals, there is an insufficient adherence to scientific methodology as compared to empathy for historically vulnerable individuals and groups.
1:38:27 PM+InfiniteSpireWe've seen that in Google, for example.
1:38:47 PM+InfiniteSpireThough, some choose to call that a pernicious form of liberalism/illiberalism, instead of 'true liberalism'.
1:39:23 PM+InfiniteSpireI am highly critical of neo-liberalism, which is perhaps the dominant form of liberalism in actual power in the USA at this moment.
1:39:36 PM+InfiniteSpireI would want neo-liberalism to be the most extreme form of politics on the right allowed.
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1:42:28 PM+fudgeyeah, I hear that part :P
1:43:17 PM+fudgeI think I question a lot of the rights framework, the "individualism" they embrace, and the liberal position on private property (it's good)
1:43:59 PM+fudgeI also think that liberalism is, in a sense, failing to adequately account for and change with the structural changes ocurring within society presently (or at least, the changes I believe are happening)
1:45:38 PM+fudgeNeoliberalism is the response to the changes occuring in capitalism at the moment.
1:47:36 PM+fudgeThe big thing that gets me annoyed with liberals is that cloying optimism of needing The Right People.
1:47:59 PM+fudgethat the institutions are fundamentally valid and justified, but they just need better people running them.
1:57:20 PM+chumpchangeAs a centrist leaning liberal, my interpretation of the argument against social programs is that too many people take advantage and don't pull their fair share.  I think most if not all citizens would support taxpayer dollars to go to help those in need get back on their feet.  Seems like a compromise could be to provide oversight in the programs to minimize the ability for people to 'game the system'.  Maybe a bipartisan congr
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1:58:59 PM+InfiniteSpirechumpchange: The fundamental issues facing this country at this time simply have nothing to do with an overuse or cheating of social programs.
1:59:05 PM+chumpchangeI'm more of a Lara Croft kinda guy
1:59:06 PM+InfiniteSpireThere is utterly no support for this worry in 2018.
1:59:27 PM+InfiniteSpireThe country is quite literally in a proto-fascist state with substantial risk of massive election hacking in 40 days.
1:59:46 PM+InfiniteSpireIf the GOP were to retain power, this nation will likely move into full fascism before 2020.
1:59:59 PM+InfiniteSpireYou think Trump's been unhinged so far, you've seen nothing.
2:00:28 PM+InfiniteSpireAmerica essentially lives or dies on this next election.
2:00:50 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd the GOP has done EXACTLY NOTHING to safeguard the elections after it was revealed by our intelligence agencies they were massively targeted by multiple state actors in 2016.
2:01:09 PM+InfiniteSpireSpend precisely zero of your time, friend, worrying about social welfare programs.
2:01:21 PM+InfiniteSpireThe state is currently holding 18.5k children in concentration camps.
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2:01:38 PM+InfiniteSpireAnother 1500 children were 'lost' in the last two months as part of the new border policy.
2:02:27 PM+fudgeI say let America die.
2:02:45 PM+chumpchangeyeah, I guess it was fun while it lasted..
2:02:46 PM+InfiniteSpireI have on essential objection to America dying.
2:02:49 PM+InfiniteSpireno*
2:02:55 PM+InfiniteSpireI do have massive practical reservations.
2:02:59 PM+fudgeDemocratically elected governments that oversee abundant natural resources will breathe easier without an America.
2:03:25 PM+InfiniteSpireGiven the role of artificial intelligence, given the huge military, financial, and political interests of other nation states, given the current wealth imbalance among Americans, what do you think would happen if America died?
2:03:48 PM+InfiniteSpireIt would probably be followed by a traditional civil war, as opposed to the asymmetric civil war we're currently in.
2:03:53 PM+fudgeDepends on how it died, but most likely it'll be utter chaos and a slide into fascist dictatorship
2:04:01 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd it's likely the oligarchs would entirely seize control ala Russian Federation.
2:04:51 PM+InfiniteSpireYou can make a strong argument that Americans citizens should start assassinating members of the GOP if the 2018 election is stolen.
2:05:04 PM+InfiniteSpireI think this is the American attitude as espoused by people like Thomas Jefferson.
2:05:18 PM+InfiniteSpireOf course, this kind of philosophical/political messaging is generally banned in most civilizations.
2:05:31 PM+fudgeViolence is what maintains the United States.
2:05:36 PM+InfiniteSpireCorrect.
2:05:41 PM+InfiniteSpireUnjust violence.
2:05:46 PM+fudgeviolence has always been a major component of American hegemony.
2:05:59 PM+InfiniteSpireWhat happens is that societies generally dissuade its citizens from thinking about assassinating the elites.
2:06:05 PM+InfiniteSpireThis makes sense -- it's usually a wrong thing to do.
2:06:18 PM+InfiniteSpireBut, as the Framers of this nation noted, you sometimes have to assassinate the elites.
2:06:33 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd if there are no non-violent methods by which to oppose unjust power, then you move into violent methods.
2:07:00 PM+fudgeSo you just accept an endless cycle as some kind of natural edict?
2:07:19 PM+fudgeAs sure as the Earth revolves around the sun, there will be states that utilize violence?
2:07:43 PM+InfiniteSpire"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, will make violent revolution inevitable." - JFK, former president
2:08:06 PM+InfiniteSpireViolence is good when it stops evil.
2:08:27 PM+InfiniteSpireViolence is dangerous because it comes from minds, generally, that are more emotional and mindless.
2:08:35 PM+InfiniteSpireWhich is to say, violence is somewhat random and unpredictable.
2:08:45 PM+InfiniteSpireThis is why you don't want violence as a method of political expression.
2:08:56 PM+InfiniteSpireBut you cannot allow some random private organization, the GOP, to destroy the nation.
2:08:59 PM@ProfFarnsworthhttps://twitter.com/AtheisticLib/status/1045781961434951686
2:09:06 PM+fudgehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcBuCcydP68
2:09:09 PM+InfiniteSpireWe have allowed factionalism to so completely erode our perspective as Americans.
2:09:22 PM+InfiniteSpireThe GOP is just some team/club/faction that lives and dies by the republic.
2:09:30 PM+InfiniteSpireThey are not the republic nor can any faction ever be the republic.
2:09:45 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd if any team becomes substantially disruptive to the republic, they must be annihilated.
2:10:21 PM+InfiniteSpireThe Declaration of Independence opens with a justification for violence.
2:10:32 PM+InfiniteSpireAmericans who have been enslaved by state power forget this.
2:10:48 PM+InfiniteSpireAs the elites are incentivized to disarm the population.
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2:11:53 PM+InfiniteSpireProfFarnsworth: Kavanaugh does not  have the moral authority to be on SCOTUS.
2:11:57 PM+InfiniteSpireIn addition to his other problems.
2:12:03 PM+InfiniteSpireThis nation has lost so much perspective on ethics.
2:12:13 PM+InfiniteSpireDo you want to see what an ethical leader would do in this spot?
2:12:24 PM+InfiniteSpire1 - Recognize Donald Trump colluded with Russians to destroy the core of America.
2:12:44 PM+InfiniteSpire2 - Recognize Donald Trump continues to collude with Russians, and others, to destroy America.
2:12:55 PM+InfiniteSpire3 - Recognize that Trump is probably the greatest American traitor in American history.
2:13:13 PM+InfiniteSpire4 - Every action done in regards to Trump must be to remove him from power and mitigate him in the meantime.
2:13:26 PM+InfiniteSpire5 - Maneuver to get selected for SCOTUS so as to tie up Trump.
2:13:33 PM+InfiniteSpire6 - Delay the process as much as possible, running out Trump's clock
2:13:54 PM+InfiniteSpire7 - Upon being appointed to SCOTUS, indicate that it's not possible to go onto SCOTUS, as Trump is a traitor
2:14:22 PM+InfiniteSpireI see nothing in Kavanaugh that points to him having any ability at this level to self-sacrifice for the good of the republic.
2:14:27 PM+InfiniteSpireHe's just another factionalist.
2:14:48 PM+fudgeDoesn't the Republic itself encourage this factionalism?
2:14:55 PM+InfiniteSpireNo.
2:14:59 PM+InfiniteSpireDo you mean in its foundation?
2:15:02 PM+InfiniteSpireOr in its praxis.
2:15:16 PM+fudgeIs the foundation the establishment of an ideal?
2:15:34 PM+InfiniteSpireJames Madison addresses factionalism in Federalist 10.
2:15:36 PM+fudgeI would think only the praxis matters.
2:15:42 PM+InfiniteSpireHe states that factionalism is an essential part of human existence.
2:15:59 PM+fudgeWell I don't find myself very keen on essentialism.
2:15:59 PM+InfiniteSpireHe states the source of factionalism is the variations in the lives we experience from birth to the moment of any particular decision.
2:16:20 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: It's not a metaphysical essentialism, but an observational one that is congruent with evolutionary theory.
2:16:22 PM+fudgeMadison, however, is speaking from a privileged position in which those variations matter.
2:16:30 PM+InfiniteSpirePrivileged in what relevant sense?
2:16:35 PM+fudgeEconomically.
2:16:53 PM+InfiniteSpireHis privilege allowed him to have sufficient education and time to acquire and express a deep insight into our species.
2:16:59 PM+InfiniteSpireThis is the most moral thing a person can do with privilege.
2:17:12 PM+fudgeIt is not the mass of people that factionalize, it is the ruling powers that factionalize, to allow the government to satisfy their private goals.
2:17:14 PM+InfiniteSpireMadison's thoughts in Federalist 10 do not arise when we're worrying about getting robbed or starving.
2:17:46 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Because Madison understood factionalism comes from human nature, the only way to end it would be to have a very, very powerful state that would, in at least some cases, be worse than the solution.
2:18:03 PM+InfiniteSpireIn reality, such a powerful state would eventually be captured by factionalists and used as their Ultimate Weapon.
2:18:15 PM+InfiniteSpireHis solution, then, is the belief we can only mitigate faction.
2:18:23 PM+chumpchangeinteresting.. I didn't know the federalist papers addressed that
2:18:32 PM+InfiniteSpirechumpchange: He does it in a devastating analysis.
2:18:34 PM+fudgeI'll ignore the "human nature" part, but I would still reiterate that factionalism is not something that bubbles up from the masses to influence the ruling classes and their governments, I think this is exactly backwards.
2:18:52 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: You're using a conflict theory approach to understand Madison's claim.
2:19:05 PM+chumpchangethat almost inspires me to read all of the federalist papers looking for insight
2:19:10 PM+InfiniteSpireHis insight is essentially an observation of the nature of the theory of evolution.
2:19:21 PM+InfiniteSpireWhich hadn't yet been discovered, of course.
2:19:37 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: What is a deep criticism of Marx, who I appreciate is brilliant?
2:19:58 PM+InfiniteSpireHis analysis starts -- correct me if I'm wrong -- in the narrative of human civilization.
2:20:14 PM+InfiniteSpireHowever, the architecture of our brain was largely set millions of years to thousands of years before civilization.
2:20:22 PM+InfiniteSpireThis is insufficiently accounted for in historical Marxism.
2:20:55 PM+InfiniteSpireMarx, it seems to me, thereby overvalues the role of factions jockeying for power in a landscape where it's not understood the factions have some essential natures pre-conflict.
2:21:03 PM+fudgeMarx specifically talks about "species-being"
2:21:15 PM+InfiniteSpireCan you give a citation or analysis in this regard?
2:21:16 PM+fudgeIt's a major component of historical materialism.
2:21:38 PM+InfiniteSpireFor the record, I think Marx is one of the most important thinkers in human history.
2:22:05 PM+fudgeIN regards to the state? I don't have a quote or reference off hand, it'd probably be somewhere in his critique of Hegel
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2:22:49 PM+InfiniteSpirechumpchange: Here's a citation from Madison. I think it's devastating:
2:22:52 PM+InfiniteSpireBy a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community.
2:23:07 PM+InfiniteSpireThere are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction: the one, by removing its causes; the other, by controlling its effects.
2:23:15 PM+InfiniteSpireThere are again two methods of removing the causes of faction: the one, by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence; the other, by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions, and the same interests.
2:23:31 PM+InfiniteSpireIt could never be more truly said than of the first remedy, that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire, an aliment without which it instantly expires. But it could not be less folly to abolish liberty, which is essential to political life, because it nourishes faction, than it would be to wish the annihilation of air, which is essential to animal life, because it imparts to fire its destructive agency.
2:23:50 PM+InfiniteSpireThe second expedient is as impracticable as the first would be unwise. As long as the reason of man continues fallible, and he is at liberty to exercise it, different opinions will be formed. As long as the connection subsists between his reason and his self-love, his opinions and his passions will have a reciprocal influence on each other; and the former will be objects to which the latter will attach themselves. The diversity in the faculties of men, from which the rights of property originate, is not less an insuperable obstacle to a uniformity of interests. The protection of these faculties is the first object of government. From the protection of different and unequal faculties of acquiring property, the possession of different degrees and kinds of property immediately results; and from the influence of these on the sentiments and views of the respective proprietors, ensues a division of the society into different interests and parties.
2:24:54 PM+chumpchangeyah, just pulled it up
2:25:03 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: I'm looking your species-being point.
2:25:52 PM+chumpchangehttp://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed10.asp
2:25:57 PM+InfiniteSpireI like that he doesn't believe in a universal human nature, per se.
2:26:14 PM+InfiniteSpireRather thinking it's always contextualized in a particular set of facts, beliefs, and history.
2:26:39 PM+InfiniteSpireHowever, there are important patterns in human behavior and thought due to the genetics of our species.
2:26:48 PM+InfiniteSpireThis kind of knowledge wasn't really available to Marx, so he probably undervalued it.
2:27:07 PM+InfiniteSpirechumpchange: Yep, that's what I was looking at.
2:27:15 PM+fudgeThey thought evolution reaffirmed dialectical materialism :P
2:27:24 PM+fudgeMarx and Engels
2:27:59 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Madison's view of faction, I think, could be interpreted as a Laffer curve.
2:28:13 PM+InfiniteSpireYou have to allow some faction to keep it as manageable as possible.
2:28:35 PM+InfiniteSpireThe underlying metaphysics would result in states that are forever in tension, trying to balance restrictions on faction, while not over-empowering the state.
2:28:49 PM+InfiniteSpireSee, for example 'The Drumhead' episode from Star Trek: The Next Generation.
2:29:10 PM+InfiniteSpirehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdXTohdKcm4
2:31:18 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Can you expound on that?
2:32:30 PM+fudge`Nature is the proof of dialectics, and it must be said for modern science that it has furnished this proof with very rich materials increasingly daily, and thus has shown that, in the last resort, Nature works dialectically and not metaphysically; that she does not move in the eternal oneness of a perpetually recurring circle, but goes through a real historical evolution.`
2:33:08 PM+fudge`An exact representation of the universe, of its evolution, of the development of mankind, and of the reflection of this evolution in the minds of men, can therefore only be obtained by the methods of dialectics with its constant regard to the innumerable actions and reactions of life and death, of progressive or retrogressive changes. `
2:34:02 PM+fudgehttps://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/ch02.htm
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2:34:08 PM+InfiniteSpireIn the most favorable case of dialectical materialism, I would claim it should be interpreted as an expression of evolutionary theory.
2:34:16 PM+InfiniteSpireThat is, evolutionary theory subsumes Marxism.
2:34:50 PM+InfiniteSpireI do think that evolutionary theory can be understood as a conflict-theory oriented paradigm, to say it another way.
2:35:53 PM+InfiniteSpireI largely agree with your two quotes.
2:37:16 PM+fudgeWe got Engels in the house :P
2:37:39 PM+InfiniteSpireIn some sense, Marx's ideas seem relatively obvious.
2:37:41 PM+fudgeOkay, gonna read a bit more of the book on queer nihilism my friend let me borrow.
2:37:55 PM+fudgeI'm a bit more disposed towards Deleuze and Foucault as of late.
2:38:45 PM+fudgeQuestions of power and questions of flows.
2:38:55 PM+InfiniteSpireI currently view Marx as sort of a starting point of serious thought about human life, rather than a solution or final worldview.
2:39:17 PM+fudgeMhm, I annoy my comrades because I'm always jumping off to other people. :P
2:39:27 PM+fudgeThey like to stick with Marx and Lenin a lot.
2:39:45 PM+InfiniteSpireYes, evolution is a conflict-driven process and that conflict-driven process resulted in the selection of our cognitive architecture. Humans have historically acted out on the basis of that conflict-driven cognitive architecture, and that explains much of what we observe in human societies.
2:39:47 PM+InfiniteSpireNow what?
2:39:50 PM+fudgeIt's like... materialism had advanced a lot more after them, we need to account for that.
2:40:10 PM+InfiniteSpireIs that conflict eternal? Can future humans or other species ever step out of that conflict? Should humans continue existing?
2:40:40 PM+InfiniteSpireBuddhists, for example, claim a solution to the problems Marx observed.
2:41:00 PM+InfiniteSpireMaybe AI can develop new organisms that are not conflict-oriented. But, maybe sentience requires conflict?
2:41:04 PM+fudgeThere's a lot to unpack there. I think it depends on your view of the human species. I, myself, don't believe that any system of *subjectification* will suffice.
2:41:17 PM+fudgeIn which the people must fill in the expectations of the State.
2:41:30 PM+fudgeAs a species fills in an environmental niche.
2:42:10 PM+InfiniteSpireThere will be concentrations of power in human societies, as a result of evolutionary theory/Marxism.
2:42:34 PM+InfiniteSpireThe ideal State -- which we should try to build to make power as just as possible -- should try to mitigate unjust power.
2:42:42 PM+InfiniteSpireThat tends to be an axiom for me.
2:42:55 PM+fudgeI would like to see as much destruction of the capacity to concentrate power as possible.
2:43:23 PM+InfiniteSpireJordan Peterson speaks on this front: Hierarchies can be quite useful, but they're also often unjust. The goal should be to make good hierarchies.
2:43:25 PM+fudgeAnd, presently, that capicity has a lot to do with private property.
2:43:49 PM+InfiniteSpireI agree that private property leads to much of the state -- or at least capitalist state apparatus.
2:44:02 PM+InfiniteSpireBut private property seems to be pretty close to default human psychology.
2:44:03 PM+fudgeIt is the dominant mode of apparatuses that we have right now.
2:44:13 PM+InfiniteSpireThat is, there is often a notion of privateness in pre-state human groups.
2:44:51 PM+InfiniteSpireThe abolition of private property seems to require, at the cognitive level, for the humans in the group to have deep, semi-permanent relationships with their neighbors.
2:44:53 PM+fudgeI am not opposed to privacy or personal goods, but in how we produce what we need in society, I am against privacy and personal ownership.
2:45:07 PM+InfiniteSpireOkay.
2:45:12 PM+InfiniteSpireThat seems reasonable to me.
2:45:58 PM+InfiniteSpireYou could argue the path of history is leading to a more unified organismal government that can better make decisions for itself, as opposed to its parts being at war with itself.
2:46:06 PM+fudgeTake an apartment complex in a big city, and draw their paths out: they rarely intersect, they rarely do anything related to their immediate needs and desires.
2:46:32 PM+fudgePrivate production towards the goal of exchange is what is alienating us from our neighbors.
2:46:50 PM+InfiniteSpireI think there is a lot of truth in that.
2:47:26 PM+InfiniteSpireHow do we express liberty and what is the essential mechanism by which a group of people choose to produce things, though?
2:47:35 PM+InfiniteSpireBy liberty, I mean something at the core cognitive nature of our species.
2:47:51 PM+InfiniteSpireIndividuals in many species have some desire/programming for choosing to do some things the way they like.
2:48:04 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd groups of people need ways to navigate conflict and move toward consensus.
2:48:09 PM+fudgeI was arguing this before, but I would say democratization of those spaces, and the removal of the alienating proces of delegating to executive bodies to carry out decisions.
2:48:24 PM+fudgeThe bodies that produce are the bodies that vote
2:48:42 PM+fudgeAnd their goals are socially carried out, in a manner, in my view, that should maximize as much as possible internal social fluidity.
2:49:27 PM+InfiniteSpireThat sounds reasonable, but I have soured somewhat on democracy since 2016.
2:49:38 PM+InfiniteSpireI dislike the fiction that every person has equal insight into various topics.
2:49:48 PM+fudgeWhat the US has isn't democracy, it's Republicanism
2:50:01 PM+InfiniteSpireJordan Peterson claims that competence hierarchies will form in the democratic leadership of a previous corporation.
2:50:16 PM+InfiniteSpireWhich I agree with.
2:50:56 PM+InfiniteSpireOvertime, we'll see a concentration of power in those competence hierarchies, and we'll see some groups get disenfranchised, just as is the case in our literal democracy.
2:51:27 PM+InfiniteSpireSo, perhaps the state to try and maintain is some range of democracy, constrains on power imbalances, ensuring each person gets 'enough', etc.
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2:52:39 PM+InfiniteSpireDemocratic leadership in those new organizational structures can be attacked just as well as our literal democracy, e.g. corruption of voting systems, concentration of power in unjust media that changes the minds of members of that structure.
2:52:39 PM+fudgeokay, need to go now.
2:52:44 PM+InfiniteSpireYep
2:52:49 PM+InfiniteSpireThanks for the last few thoughts
2:53:06 PM+InfiniteSpireI appreciate your perspective; you help grow my understanding.
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2:54:06 PM+InfiniteSpireI guess I'd like to see two major modalities when constructing such a society: 1) just goals based off deep understanding of human psychology and human history, 2) coupled with a first-class citizen of what to do when we deviate from whatever we aim at
2:54:25 PM+InfiniteSpireI think, for example, America doesn't have enough structures in place in this second regard, but maybe it's just really hard.
2:54:45 PM+InfiniteSpireMaybe America actually has pretty good structure for (2), but they just got corrupted, too
2:55:01 PM+InfiniteSpireWhich can also happen in any organization -- and I don't mean social organization, but organization at the information level
2:55:30 PM+InfiniteSpireThat is, any pattern which attempts to regulate itself, for example a self-replicating molecule, can put in place error checking, for example DNA polymerase, but that can be corrupted, too.
2:55:41 PM+InfiniteSpireAs self-referential knowledge can only bootstrap itself so far
2:56:12 PM+InfiniteSpireAs we observe in cancer genetics, errors often accumulate and lead to cascading failure
2:56:20 PM+chumpchangeI think I should be an IRCop
2:56:32 PM+InfiniteSpireI guess at some level, this is unavoidable due to the 2nd law of thermodynamics
2:56:38 PM+InfiniteSpireWhy?
2:57:36 PM← system619 has left (I interject your Reality)
2:58:36 PM+InfiniteSpireSay that a lot of my above analysis is correct. What should an individual due with that knowledge?
2:59:12 PM+InfiniteSpire1 - A recognition the above is based on the existence of variations in states
2:59:18 PM+InfiniteSpire2 - A preference for some states over others
2:59:24 PM+InfiniteSpire3 - A limited lifespan
2:59:41 PM+InfiniteSpire4 - A recognition effort needs to be extended increase the likelihood of the preferred states
3:00:04 PM+InfiniteSpire5 - A recognition that some efforts lead to certain internal, mental states that we might find unpleasant
3:00:30 PM+InfiniteSpire6 - A decision on how much to weigh the present moment v. future moments of that individual v. beings outside the individuals, e.g. beings in the future
3:01:33 PM+InfiniteSpireIdeally, then, I think, a person would be able to extend effort in moving the universe to their desired states while being as pleasant about each moment, i.e. not becoming crushed when they observe how corrupt the GOP is
3:01:42 PM+InfiniteSpireIn Buddhism, this is equanimity