* Showdown: Fix what you broke

20:36		disasterAverted has joined the channel
20:36	tenaciousTheseus	Hello
20:37	mislaidLullaby	<| ...He's threatening to take the goggles off me so I should probably go now |>
20:37	mislaidLullaby	<| Hey |>
20:37	disasterAverted	You people
20:37	tenaciousTheseus	We people
20:37	disasterAverted	Could someone please explain
20:37	amaranthineSwell	Get outta here, Maim Girl.
20:37	mislaidLullaby	<| And goodbye |>
20:37	disasterAverted	What exactly you people said to my Heart player?
20:37	amaranthineSwell	Don't die.
20:37	tenaciousTheseus	Well
20:37	tenaciousTheseus	The truth?
20:38	disasterAverted	Because he seems to have the impression that you told him it was A-OK to perform a shiny-modification on the team leader and usurp power
20:38	disasterAverted	And that strikes me as a LITTLE OFF BASE
20:38	tenaciousTheseus	We didn't tell him to do that
20:38	tenaciousTheseus	And as an FYI
20:38	tenaciousTheseus	Doing the Raging thing will get you jack shit here
20:38	tenaciousTheseus	We got him to remove the shiny mods, as a matter of fact
20:38	tenaciousTheseus	Or told him to, at least
20:38	disasterAverted	No you didn't
20:39	tenaciousTheseus	Pretty sure we did
20:39	tenaciousTheseus	I remember typing that
20:42	ballisticSpectacle	Oh dear. I have to go, guys!
20:43	tenaciousTheseus	Later
20:43	ballisticSpectacle	Stay healthy!
20:43	tenaciousTheseus	...Right
20:44	disasterAverted	I would like to point out that aside from the ethics involved, this is kind of a dangerous situation here
20:44	disasterAverted	Because I'm not sure how much you know about pacifist conduct
20:44	tenaciousTheseus	I know it's an incredibly risky and mostly stupid idea to do in the middle of a war zone
20:44	ventricularPipefitter	...Wait, who's session leader again? And, seriously, a usurpation?
20:44	disasterAverted	But the game sort of requires you to stick at it if you want your ARC not to suck
20:44	stanzicApparati	I know it's a good way to get yourself killed!
20:45	tenaciousTheseus	The game requires you to fight
20:45	tenaciousTheseus	You are a Knight
20:45	tenaciousTheseus	Fighting is what the game commands you to do
20:45	disasterAverted	There's a ramp-up period and a ramp-DOWN period
20:45	ventricularPipefitter	You two are perfectly aware that a pacifist run is capable
20:45	ventricularPipefitter	and that Rage, actually, isn't a bad Aspect to do it with.
20:45	disasterAverted	if I wasn't sticking to her like glue this stupid power-grab would've gotten her killed by now
20:45	tenaciousTheseus	I am aware that everybody has to be part of it
20:45	ventricularPipefitter	Can we deal with the problem he /gave/ us, and not tell him the way he's decided its worth dying playing the game for?
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	Fine
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	Power grab?
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	Is that how you're interpreting it?
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	Because he was not
20:46	disasterAverted	Well ok
20:46	stanzicApparati	And hey - your sister's 'pacifism'? It got her dreamself killed, because she picked /imps/ over her dreamself.
20:46	disasterAverted	Maybe that's not being fair to his motivations
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	He was guarding the rest of you
20:46	disasterAverted	But you can't argue with the results
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	Which were...?
20:46	stanzicApparati	(Yes I can!)
20:46	tenaciousTheseus	Seriously, I don't know
20:47	stanzicApparati	(I can argue with /anything/, the hell you say I can't.)
20:47	amaranthineSwell	stanzicApparati.
20:47	disasterAverted	Former session leader is single-mindedly throwing herself at quests and ignoring what everyone else is doing
20:47	stanzicApparati	:\
20:47	amaranthineSwell	Don't make me enlighten you on tact.
20:47	amaranthineSwell	Because that would really just be rather sad.
20:47	stanzicApparati	...
20:47	disasterAverted	While he leads the rest of the party in his quest to save her dreamself--or tries to anyways
20:47	tenaciousTheseus	And
20:47	stanzicApparati	.../fUck/
20:47	amaranthineSwell	You're welcome.
20:47	tenaciousTheseus	Yes
20:48	tenaciousTheseus	Because she is an actual person
20:48	tenaciousTheseus	More than any of the imps can ever be
20:48	ventricularPipefitter	Well. Huh. That's...crazy.
20:48	tenaciousTheseus	AI prototype or not
20:48	disasterAverted	Ok and what happens if SHE dies?
20:48	ventricularPipefitter	Sarah? Or dreaming Sarah?
20:48	disasterAverted	You know, the whole "shiny mod that stops her from playing the role the way she has up to this point" thing?
20:48	tenaciousTheseus	Seer of Time
20:48	disasterAverted	Yes I mean real-Sarah
20:48	tenaciousTheseus	Focusing on quests
20:49	tenaciousTheseus	Not sure what the problem is
20:49	tenaciousTheseus	It's not a blatant disregard for her title like you're doing
20:49	ventricularPipefitter	Well, is it Megalovania-esque or Walk-Stab-Walk-esque?
20:49	ventricularPipefitter	Because that *is* a problem.
20:49	disasterAverted	It's "he modified her fucking shiny"-esque dammit
20:52	tenaciousTheseus	No it was not
20:52	tenaciousTheseus	We were informed of him modifying her shiny after the fact
20:52	ventricularPipefitter	He say that to you?
20:52	tenaciousTheseus	Nope
20:52	ventricularPipefitter	No, I'm asking DA
20:52	disasterAverted	Yeah, he said that that one crazy witch begged him to protect dream-sarah at all costs
20:53	tenaciousTheseus	...Dammit, Zephyr
20:53	ventricularPipefitter	That's Hooks, yeah.
20:53	disasterAverted	And he didn't seem to be alone in holding that opinion
20:53	disasterAverted	Fuck you know what?
20:53	disasterAverted	This conversation isn't going anywhere unless I drag him on chat here
20:53	ventricularPipefitter	Very possibly.
20:53	tenaciousTheseus	Sigh
20:54	disasterAverted	[Danny yells at his Heart player via text-to-speech]
20:54		tenaciousBeast has joined the memo
20:54	tenaciousBeast	Ok god what is it Danny I was busy doing research
20:55	ventricularPipefitter	So.
20:55	ventricularPipefitter	Coup.
20:55	tenaciousBeast	... More specific?
20:57	ventricularPipefitter	...Could you remind me what you did to Sarah's shiny?
20:57	tenaciousBeast	I made it so she would focus on quests for a while and not cause any more problems while we tried to figure out how we were going to save her dreamself
20:58	tenaciousBeast	I thought we were all clear on that
20:58	disasterAverted	And you completely wiped out all her pacifist leanings
20:58	tenaciousBeast	Gross exaggeration
20:58	ventricularPipefitter	...ah.
20:58	tenaciousBeast	She is more interested in finishing quests than sticking to those guns
20:58		ventricularPipefitter facepalms. Thunderously.
20:59	tenaciousBeast	She isn't just forgetting it
20:59	ventricularPipefitter	Wow, you're going to fuck everything up for everyone.
21:00	tenaciousBeast	Oh come on. You guys BOTH already got yourselves killed once paying too much attention to the needs of the imps
21:01	tenaciousBeast	I wasn't going to sit around and let her lead us into some permadeaths
21:01	disasterAverted	That was not "imps", that was my fucking Denizen and you KNOW he's sentient
21:01	tenaciousBeast	Sapient
21:02	tenaciousTheseus	You are supposed to kill him
21:02	stanzicApparati	YOu hAve tO.
21:02	tenaciousTheseus	That is the point
21:02	stanzicApparati	THey /aSk/ yOu tO kIll tHem.
21:02	amaranthineSwell	Hm.
21:02	amaranthineSwell	Interesting.
21:02	amaranthineSwell	 /Very/ interesting.
21:03	stanzicApparati	?
21:03	disasterAverted	This is completely off topic here
21:03	disasterAverted	The topic being what you did to Sarah
21:03	amaranthineSwell	Tell me.  Did this Sarah's Denizen keel over on its own, or did she have to kill it?
21:03	disasterAverted	She killed the Crone of course
21:03	amaranthineSwell	Hm.
21:03	disasterAverted	There's not really much choice in that one
21:03	amaranthineSwell	Interesting.
21:03	amaranthineSwell	Yes.
21:03	amaranthineSwell	There is.
21:03	amaranthineSwell	Or there is for true pacifists.
21:04	tenaciousBeast	There was a HUGE ammount of choice
21:04	tenaciousBeast	Killing her Denizen at that time represented turning down the offer
21:04	amaranthineSwell	Oh, no.
21:04	tenaciousBeast	Hell, she spelled that out in the offer if you read between the lines
21:04	amaranthineSwell	That's not even what I'm talking about.
21:04	ventricularPipefitter	Wait. Did you mod her -before- she killed the Crone?
21:04	amaranthineSwell	I read in the guide that truly pacifistic players' Denizens?
21:04	ventricularPipefitter	Or After?
21:05	amaranthineSwell	They just keel over and die.
21:05	tenaciousBeast	Of course not
21:05	amaranthineSwell	Don't even bring up the 'you have to kill me' shit.
21:05	tenaciousBeast	If it'd been before, we wouldn't be having this same conversation because she would've taken the freaking offer
21:05	stanzicApparati	YEah, iT hAppens rIght aFter yOu gO mEet tHem fOr tHe fIrst tIme.
21:05	amaranthineSwell	Which means /someone/ isn't telling the truth about being a true pacifist.
21:05	disasterAverted	OR it means my earlier theory was right
21:06	stanzicApparati	...wHich wAs?
21:06	disasterAverted	And telling a pacifist about the details of the denizen quest in advance is about the worst thing you can possibly do to them
21:06	disasterAverted	Because then they suddenly want the quest to be over with
21:06	disasterAverted	Which ruins that script
21:06	stanzicApparati	OR yOu're sCrabbling fOr eXcuses aS tO wHy yOurs dIdn't kEel oVer oF iTs oWn aCcord.
21:06	disasterAverted	And then they have to do the whole build-up like normal, AND kill them at the end
21:07	amaranthineSwell	stanzicApparati, that is /quite/ the conclusion you've come to.
21:07	tenaciousTheseus	Wanting it over has no bearing on wanting to kill them
21:07	amaranthineSwell	The same one I have, actually, as well.
21:07	disasterAverted	It does if you know that the two mean the same thing
21:07	stanzicApparati	NOt rEally.
21:07	tenaciousTheseus	Funnily enough, they don't!
21:08		unseeingAugur has returned from away
21:08	tenaciousTheseus	A true pacifist's denizen would just keel over
21:08	amaranthineSwell	They don't.  Not at all.  Or have you forgotten how pacifism works?
21:08	stanzicApparati	HEy, uNsaug.
21:08	unseeingAugur	Ederic's, as far as I'm aware, has always keeled over.
21:08	amaranthineSwell	And there we go.
21:08	tenaciousTheseus	Which is a lot faster than having to do the whole thing with it
21:08	amaranthineSwell	Whoops.
21:08	disasterAverted	Right. Because as the player who can literally order people to drop dead
21:08	amaranthineSwell	And that's... what's the human phrase?  The nails in your coffin?
21:09	disasterAverted	it is VERY important that I understand the difference between someone dying by my actions and dying by my hand
21:09	disasterAverted	Oh wait
21:09	disasterAverted	There isn't one
21:09	stanzicApparati	THere iS.
21:09	unseeingAugur	There is.
21:09	amaranthineSwell	Isn't there?
21:09	amaranthineSwell	Please.  /Enlighten/ me.
21:10	disasterAverted	Ok. Is it killing if you press a button and drop a bomb on someone, same as if you stabbed them in the chest?
21:10	disasterAverted	Assuming you know what that button will do?
21:10	amaranthineSwell	Yes, but what was the intent?
21:10	amaranthineSwell	By that logic...
21:10	ventricularPipefitter	Oh boy, Trolley problems!
21:10		irenicAlmiraj is no ||onger id||e
21:10	amaranthineSwell	You eating deprives someone else of food.
21:10	ventricularPipefitter	Also, yes.
21:10	irenicAlmiraj	mine just kee||ed over.
21:10	amaranthineSwell	Therefore, you're starving some poor soul.
21:10	irenicAlmiraj	in my first session.
21:10	amaranthineSwell	Therefore, you are a murderer.
21:10	amaranthineSwell	Congratulations.
21:11	amaranthineSwell	Look at that wonderful logic there!
21:11	tenaciousTheseus	Hello, Paaver
21:11	tenaciousBeast	Ok even I'm not going to let you get away with that argument amarinthe
21:11	irenicAlmiraj	he||o, adam.
21:11	tenaciousTheseus	Intent is everything
21:11	tenaciousBeast	That is complete bullshit and you know it
21:11	amaranthineSwell	Oh, you're not supposed to.
21:11	amaranthineSwell	And it's "Amaranth".
21:11	irenicAlmiraj	-?-
21:11	disasterAverted	"Intent is everything"
21:11	disasterAverted	Well then
21:11	amaranthineSwell	Try to get it right.
21:11	tenaciousTheseus	If you INTEND to kill someone, what you do all leads up to it
21:11	disasterAverted	What do you think I was expecting to happen when I entered that cave for the first time
21:12	disasterAverted	KNOWING that no matter what, the quest ends with Ares' death
21:12	ventricularPipefitter	Amaranth, if we're doing to be debating with this fellow, at least do so in a /fair/ manner, for now.
21:12	amaranthineSwell	Hmph.
21:12	stanzicApparati	YEah, nO fIghting sOmeone wHo's uNarmed. : P
21:12	amaranthineSwell	A fair is where oinkbeasts compete for blue ribbons.
21:12	ventricularPipefitter	Seriously this is no place for obfuscatory rhetoric
21:12	ventricularPipefitter	Yeah, and if you and I are ever on Earth at the same time I'll take you to one and get you funnelcake, your point?
21:13	amaranthineSwell	But you're right.  I shouldn't pick on someone who can't defend himself.
21:13	disasterAverted	The point is
21:13	disasterAverted	By telling me that NO MATTER WHAT I was going to have to kill him to end the quest line
21:13	disasterAverted	You basically told me that the best possible outcome
21:13	disasterAverted	The one to hope for
21:13	disasterAverted	Was that I'd kill him as soon as I entered the room, just by being there
21:14	ventricularPipefitter	Ah.
21:14	ventricularPipefitter	Wait, 'we' told you that?
21:14	ventricularPipefitter	or perhaps, We 'told' you that?
21:14	irenicAlmiraj	oh.
21:14	irenicAlmiraj	i think i shou||d read the faq more.
21:15	amaranthineSwell	Never a bad idea to educate yourself, purpleblood.
21:15	disasterAverted	You only wrote it about five million times in every guide in paradox space
21:15	unseeingAugur	Okay, here's a question.
21:15	disasterAverted	Including, yes, including THE guide
21:16	ventricularPipefitter	I ain't written shit
21:16	unseeingAugur	You're stuck on a ship for six months. You have food enough for six people for five months.
21:16	unseeingAugur	And there are six of you.
21:17	unseeingAugur	One is a criminal, one is a child.
21:17	tenaciousBeast	Ok god enough of this
21:17	ventricularPipefitter	Well, okay, that's not quite right. But I didn't write anything that ever brought up pacifist how-to
21:17	tenaciousBeast	Either debate ethics or rake me over coals for trying to protect dream-sA
21:17	tenaciousBeast	but I have better things to do than be present while you debate ethics
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	TB, it's you fucking with Sarah's waking convictions and motivations that I'm pissed at you for
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	You had her in your hands!
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	You *knew* how important that was to her.
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	Care to tell the rest of us about it?
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	...actually.
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	That'd be useful, yeah.
21:18	ventricularPipefitter	Do it.
21:18	unseeingAugur	...
21:19	tenaciousBeast	About what?
21:19	unseeingAugur	I...
21:19	tenaciousBeast	What I did or what she did?
21:19	unseeingAugur	What /you/ did.
21:19	ventricularPipefitter	Yes.
21:19	tenaciousBeast	Ok well I guess that requires telling you the tail end of what she did
21:19	tenaciousTheseus	Mmhm
21:19	tenaciousBeast	See, she didn't tell anyone about that quest the Crone gave her
21:20	disasterAverted	She told me
21:20	tenaciousBeast	... oh god is THAT what sparked that whole incident?
21:20	amaranthineSwell	And already it starts to fall apart.
21:20	tenaciousBeast	ok fuck that detail
21:20	ventricularPipefitter	Hush, OT, kids are talking.
21:20	tenaciousBeast	She didn't tell anyone she didn't already know would agree with her
21:20	unseeingAugur	It /doesn't/ /matter/. You /took/ /away/ a /part/ of her that she /cared/ about and /trusted/ you to not.
21:20	tenaciousBeast	She didn't tell ME
21:20	tenaciousBeast	She didn't tell HER DREAMSELF
21:21	ventricularPipefitter	She came to us, actually, and I didn't tell her to do it one way or the other.
21:21	amaranthineSwell	Squalling, you mean.
21:21	tenaciousBeast	And then she went and literally threw away her one and only chance to ever save her dreamself's life
21:21	ventricularPipefitter	I asked her what more important to her.
21:21	ventricularPipefitter	Principles, or a person?
21:21	tenaciousBeast	If we accept the premises of the challenge as fact she literally killed the girl
21:21	unseeingAugur	Guess what, TB? It doesn't matter if she told you. You took away a part of her.
21:22	unseeingAugur	Did you ask if it was okay for you to take it away from her?
21:22	ventricularPipefitter	...Hey, DA, how does his interpretation of this square with how *you* figure guilt and responsibility shake out
21:22	ventricularPipefitter	Would she have /said/ it was okay, if you asked?
21:22	ventricularPipefitter	Because we know you didn't ask.
21:22	unseeingAugur	I'm going to be sick.
21:22	disasterAverted	She went back in time to tell me
21:22		unseeingAugur is away!
21:22	disasterAverted	But only after she did it
21:22	disasterAverted	And I reacted... badly
21:23	tenaciousBeast	More specifically he got himself corrupted
21:23	tenaciousBeast	And the rest... is history
21:23	tenaciousTheseus	Hmm
21:23	disasterAverted	I went to the terrors to try to find an alternative, yes
21:23		ventricularPipefitter PMs "Abel" ( I'll tell you when it's over. Thank you, though, for your support. )
21:23	tenaciousTheseus	You did what
21:23	tenaciousTheseus	Are you completely insane
21:24	disasterAverted	I was desperate ok?
21:24	tenaciousTheseus	Why the /fuck/ would you go to the others?
21:24		MusilogicalDecayafier joined the memo
21:24	ventricularPipefitter	She went back in time to tell you what, exactly?
21:24	tenaciousTheseus	That's not desparate, that's suicidal!
21:24	disasterAverted	It's not like they even offered me anything I was willing to accept
21:24	amaranthineSwell	Perhaps.  But desperation breeds does terrible things to a person.
21:24	tenaciousTheseus	Just talking to them is hazardous!
21:24	ventricularPipefitter	Tens, it is not.
21:24	MusilogicalDecayafier	okay, what is going on. and should i know?
21:24	disasterAverted	Evidence suggests it is
21:25	ventricularPipefitter	However, good on you. Bargains leave a mark on the soul.
21:25	tenaciousTheseus	Being in their presence does
21:25	stanzicApparati	...oKay, I aM gOing tO gO dO
21:25		unseeingAugur PMs "Ross": (I'm not leaving for good. Fuck that noise. They need to know what they've done wrong. Unless my absence is something you can use to your advantage? The horror card can be used well, sometimes.)
21:25	disasterAverted	Because I died less than a day later
21:25	stanzicApparati	sOmething eLse
21:25	tenaciousTheseus	No you should not know, MD
21:25	stanzicApparati	tHat iS nOt tHis
21:25	stanzicApparati	sOmething eLse
21:25	tenaciousTheseus	No you should not know, MD
21:25	stanzicApparati	tHat iS nOt tHis
21:25	tenaciousTheseus	...
21:25	stanzicApparati	LAter, gUys.
21:25	tenaciousTheseus	Bye
21:25	MusilogicalDecayafier	have fun
21:25		stanzicApparati has left the memo!
21:25	ventricularPipefitter	Okay, Tens, tabling the 'How Dangerous are HTs conversation for now'
21:26	tenaciousTheseus	Very dangerous
21:26	tenaciousTheseus	But okay
21:26	ventricularPipefitter	Getting back to Non-Consensual Shiny Fuckery
21:26	ventricularPipefitter	And Justifications.
21:26	MusilogicalDecayafier	oh, horrorterror stuff
21:26	tenaciousTheseus	It is not horrorterror stuf
21:26	tenaciousTheseus	f
21:26	MusilogicalDecayafier	I can wait I guess
21:26	tenaciousTheseus	Yes
21:26	tenaciousTheseus	You do that
21:26		ventricularPipefitter PMs "Abel" ( I'm thinking that we'll pass on the horrorcard. )
21:26		futureSnaplockSunblood has joined the memo
21:26	MusilogicalDecayafier	Hello FSS
21:26	futureSnaplockSunblood	Hello
21:27	tenaciousBeast	I seem to remember a much less united response while the victim of the affair was present in the chatroom
21:27		amaranthineSwell PMs futureSnaplockSunblood: (Remain quiet.  Ross is trying to defuse a situation here.)
21:27	tenaciousBeast	Let me dig up my logs for a moment...
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:30   tenaciousTheseus        I don;t know
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:30   tenaciousTheseus        Tenbea, protect her
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:30   tenaciousTheseus        That's all I can help with here
21:27	MusilogicalDecayafier	I'll be back latter
21:27		MusilogicalDecayafier left the memo
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:31   tenaciousBeast  I guess the hardline rules on what is and isn't ok are a bit harder when you have to face a concrete example
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:31   tenaciousBeast  I mean, I'll admit it
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:31   tenaciousBeast  I never thought it'd be anything this bad
21:27		futureSnaplockSunblood PMs amaranthineSwell (What kinda situation? PK?)
21:27	tenaciousBeast	 22:31   tenaciousTheseus        Your situation is so offbase that there are no real rules for this
21:28		amaranthineSwell PMs futureSnaplockSunblood: (Shiny fuckery.)
21:28	tenaciousBeast	 22:31   tenaciousTheseus        Like at all
21:28		amaranthineSwell PMs futureSnaplockSunblood: (And ethics.)
21:28	ventricularPipefitter	Perhaps you should explain for us why "Protecting Dreaming Sarah" requires "Taking Away Something Important To Waking Sarah"
21:28	ventricularPipefitter	As that's the part I'm unclear on.
21:28	tenaciousTheseus	Because the latter leads to the former
21:28	ventricularPipefitter	Additionally, Adam's not a spokesperson for us.
21:28	ventricularPipefitter	He's one guy.
21:28	tenaciousTheseus	And doesn't shiny manip wear off over time?
21:29	tenaciousTheseus	Well, yes
21:30	tenaciousBeast	All I did was shift her priorities
21:31	ventricularPipefitter	'Over Time' does not  mean 'right away'
21:31	ventricularPipefitter	Did she *ask* you to do that?
21:31	tenaciousTheseus	It does not mean "Permanent" either
21:31	tenaciousBeast	Put "protect team members" and "complete the main quest" higher
21:31		futureSnaplockSunblood PMs amaranthineSwell (How bad of a situation is it?)
21:31		unseeingAugur has returned from away
21:31		amaranthineSwell PMs futureSnaplockSunblood: (You look at the chat and tell me.)
21:31	tenaciousBeast	Since those were already goals in her mind, it was a pretty stable change
21:31	amaranthineSwell	Welcome back.
21:31	tenaciousBeast	It'll probably last at least another month if I don't touch it
21:32	unseeingAugur	Tens, would you be okay with it if someone changed your sexuality, or your gender? Just for a while.
21:32	unseeingAugur	Without asking.
21:32	tenaciousTheseus	For no reason?
21:32	tenaciousTheseus	Yes
21:32	tenaciousBeast	She means me obviously
21:32	tenaciousTheseus	To protect someone?
21:33	tenaciousTheseus	Oh right
21:33	unseeingAugur	Guess what? There were other ways to work things without excising a part of her that she /valued/ /deeply/.
21:34	tenaciousBeast	And I would certainly prefer that to somebody deciding to let me die in a couple months when they could have stopped it
21:34	irenicAlmiraj	this seems ||ike a very serious conversation that i don
21:34	irenicAlmiraj	*don't understand
21:35	irenicAlmiraj	if it is a|| the same, i think i shou||d go.
21:35	tenaciousTheseus	Mmm
21:35	tenaciousBeast	Fine. It doesn't really involve you
21:35	tenaciousTheseus	Might be a good idea
21:35	tenaciousBeast	You weren't here at the time
21:35	tenaciousTheseus	Talk to you later
21:35	amaranthineSwell	Take care.
21:35	irenicAlmiraj	farewe||, adam, everyone e||se. -?-
21:35	futureSnaplockSunblood	So what got excised now?
21:35	ventricularPipefitter	Do you really think she would have put your own life below her own ideals? That's...sort of a failure of pacifism
21:36		irenicAlmiraj ||eft the memo
21:36	unseeingAugur	Are you saying someone's life is worth more than someone else's identity?
21:36	ventricularPipefitter	And there's quite a few ways to keep someone alive without killing someone else
21:36	unseeingAugur	That what makes a person a person doesn't matter, as long as they're still breathing and metabolizing?
21:36	unseeingAugur	Because that's what it sounds like you're implying.
21:37	ventricularPipefitter	Better to die as yourself than live as a mockery.
21:37	tenaciousTheseus	It wasn't a permanent change
21:37	unseeingAugur	Tens?
21:37	tenaciousTheseus	It wasn't something that she didn't already believe in
21:37	unseeingAugur	The vision treatments they did on me weren't permanent either.
21:38	unseeingAugur	And the testing improved the lives of hundreds of other people and potentially saved lives.
21:39	amaranthineSwell	Better to be free and choose your doom than have life forced on you by someone else.
21:40	disasterAverted	You're just saying that to be contrary
21:40	disasterAverted	A minute ago you were belittling our beliefs
21:40	ventricularPipefitter	As a rule, I try not to say shit I don't believe in.
21:40	disasterAverted	Not you
21:40	futureSnaplockSunblood	I'd have a better idea of what to think if someone would tell me what went down here
21:40	disasterAverted	the purple guy
21:40	ventricularPipefitter	Amaranth is a tool.
21:41	ventricularPipefitter	You should disregard his needling.
21:41	amaranthineSwell	Hmph.
21:41		MusilogicalDecayafier joined the memo
21:41		ventricularPipefitter PMs "Ock" ( Yeah, yeah. I never let you have any fun. )
21:42	ventricularPipefitter	Though, for what it's worth, I expect his more recent statement is a better reflection of what he /really/ thinks.
21:42		amaranthineSwell PMs "Ross": (Bluh bluh I'm Eberhart and I tell people to shut up and other people to ignore other people bluh bluh)
21:43	futureSnaplockSunblood	...I ain't hearing any explanations here
21:43	tenaciousTheseus	Nope
21:43	amaranthineSwell	Snaplock, are you capable of holding your twitcher for any length of time?
21:44	ventricularPipefitter	We're arguing about right and wrong, Snap.
21:44	MusilogicalDecayafier	oh, were having that talk again?
21:45	futureSnaplockSunblood	Holding my twitcher ain't getting me any explainings happening
21:45	tenaciousTheseus	That's correct
21:46	ventricularPipefitter	Go ahead and ask, then
21:46	tenaciousBeast	Ugh
21:47	tenaciousBeast	Ok snalock it comes down to this
21:47	tenaciousBeast	As soon as I undo what I did to Sarah's shiny, she's going to go right back to making choices that she believes are right but which really put the whole team in mortal danger
21:47	tenaciousBeast	Over and over
21:47	tenaciousBeast	In her self-appointed position as session leader
21:48	futureSnaplockSunblood	What'd you do and what'll she do?
21:48	tenaciousTheseus	First one in's the leader
21:48	tenaciousBeast	But keeping her safe requires keeping her shiny-modded
21:48	disasterAverted	I'm no leader
21:48	ventricularPipefitter	Keeping her safe, or keeping you safe, and how-do-you-know-that?
21:48	disasterAverted	I don't care about entry order, she's the leader
21:48	ventricularPipefitter	I would /really/ like more information about this part where she came back from the future and instructed you one way or the other on this.
21:48	tenaciousTheseus	Said the player with the aspect of authority
21:49	amaranthineSwell	You don't have to be top dog to have authority.
21:49	disasterAverted	Alright then. I'm the king and I say she's the king. How's that
21:49	ventricularPipefitter	Heh.
21:49	futureSnaplockSunblood	Answer. What'd you do and what'll she do?
21:50	ventricularPipefitter	She had a principle that she upheld at the cost of her life, and he stuck his hand in her soul and made it less important toher.
21:50	ventricularPipefitter	Because he thinks it'll keep her, and him, and the rest of their comrades alive.
21:51	ventricularPipefitter	He doesn't trust her not to lead them off a cliff.
21:51	ventricularPipefitter	I, personally, am not so sure of this.
21:51	tenaciousBeast	Thank you.
21:51	ventricularPipefitter	TB, why can't you defend yourself when asked?
21:51	ventricularPipefitter	Should I have to do this for you?
21:52	ventricularPipefitter	Seriously, you'll let my explanation stand?
21:53	tenaciousBeast	Yes, it was fairer than I expected
21:53	tenaciousBeast	I'd just like to point out though
21:53	tenaciousBeast	That I have no intention of keeping this up past the end of the session
21:53	tenaciousBeast	If I even could
21:53	tenaciousBeast	It's not a permanent change
21:54	disasterAverted	It is if she dies first
21:54	tenaciousTheseus	Funnily enough, she has a lesser chance of dying if she drops her pacifism
21:54	ventricularPipefitter	"So I fucked over someone for a month"
21:54	ventricularPipefitter	Probably *not* actually.
21:55	ventricularPipefitter	"Bewitching someone for a month isn't as bad as doing it for six*
21:56	amaranthineSwell	Dance my little puppet!  Dance!
21:56	ventricularPipefitter	/Not/ /Helping/, *Amaranth*
21:57	amaranthineSwell	But accurate.
21:57	ventricularPipefitter	You mean, what TB did?
21:58	unseeingAugur	...
21:58	unseeingAugur	So.
21:58	futureSnaplockSunblood	What principle was this and how fucked up /did/ you make her?
21:58	amaranthineSwell	No, obviously it's what /I/ did.
21:58	ventricularPipefitter	I'll cuff you.
21:59	ventricularPipefitter	Snaplock: The girl's a pacifist. Doesn't want/won't kill anything that's thinking.
21:59	ventricularPipefitter	Proably wouldn't kill a lusus, much less a troll.
21:59	unseeingAugur	So, while it proves useful, it's worth keeping a part of her that she values hostage?
21:59	tenaciousTheseus	What?
21:59	tenaciousTheseus	Where did you get that idea?
21:59	tenaciousTheseus	That's not something anyone has mentioned or even alluded to
21:59	amaranthineSwell	Hmph.
22:00	amaranthineSwell	It's /implied/.
22:00	unseeingAugur	Really.
22:00	unseeingAugur	Take it away and keep it away while it proves useful.
22:00	unseeingAugur	That seems to be what I've taken away from this.
22:00	futureSnaplockSunblood	...how the fuck did she survive as long as she did
22:00	unseeingAugur	Very carefully.
22:02	disasterAverted	Plus she was the time player so
22:02	disasterAverted	You know
22:02	disasterAverted	Much less wiggle room on permadeathing
22:02	ventricularPipefitter	Indeed.
22:02	ventricularPipefitter	Means if there *is* a way she can get through and live and keep her values.
22:02	ventricularPipefitter	She'll do it
22:02	disasterAverted	Also just to be clear humans generally AREN'T forced to kill anything before they enter the game
22:02	futureSnaplockSunblood	She's Time?
22:02	tenaciousBeast	No
22:03	tenaciousBeast	Time means that if she screws up and permadies, it's automatically the alpha timeline
22:03	ventricularPipefitter	She is.
22:03	ventricularPipefitter	Guess what, you can finish without a time player!
22:03	tenaciousTheseus	Are you seriously suggesting that we allow her to die?
22:03	ventricularPipefitter	No.
22:03	tenaciousBeast	No
22:04	ventricularPipefitter	I'm saying she's got a right to her death wish, though
22:04	tenaciousBeast	I'm suggesting that she is at high risk merely by virtue of the fact that there's less recourse if she dies
22:04	futureSnaplockSunblood	Fuck, you don't gotta thing to worry about then. I''m alive now and I've killed myself a whole bunch of times.
22:04	amaranthineSwell	It happens.
22:04	ventricularPipefitter	And that TB here has handled it the worst possible way.
22:04	tenaciousTheseus	Her life isn't just hers
22:04	tenaciousTheseus	Everybody leans on everybody else
22:04	tenaciousTheseus	And a Time player isn't necessary, but it is important
22:04	amaranthineSwell	Do they, now?
22:04	disasterAverted	Death. Wish.
22:04	disasterAverted	Did you really
22:04	disasterAverted	just say that
22:05	tenaciousTheseus	That's what's going to happen
22:05	unseeingAugur	...
22:05	disasterAverted	Did you really just say that you think my sister has a deathwish?
22:06		ventricularPipefitter shrugs. She's willing to put what's important to her above her own life. Or, at least, the life of her younger dreaming self.
22:06	unseeingAugur	TB. Was removing her pacifism the only way that you could think of that would possibly help the situation?
22:06	ventricularPipefitter	If not a seeker, obviously not afraid.
22:07	futureSnaplockSunblood	Time players are fucking /hardy/ bastards
22:08	tenaciousBeast	I'll tell you who *is* afraid
22:08	tenaciousBeast	Dream Sarah
22:08	tenaciousBeast	And they're kinda stuck sharing a pulse
22:08	ventricularPipefitter	How's *she* feel about her other self being different?
22:08	ventricularPipefitter	Looking back, she was Pretty Fucking Spooked
22:09	tenaciousBeast	...
22:09	tenaciousTheseus	Her other self is a person
22:09	tenaciousTheseus	In her own right
22:10	unseeingAugur	TB, please. answer my question.
22:10	tenaciousBeast	She...
22:10	tenaciousBeast	pretty much said the same thing you said
22:10	tenaciousBeast	except sounding a lot less sure of it
22:10	ventricularPipefitter	So you ignored her.
22:11	unseeingAugur	Was it the only thing you could possibly have done?
22:11	tenaciousBeast	The only thing I could have done?
22:11	tenaciousBeast	How many options do I have?
22:11	tenaciousBeast	I'm Heart, and words did *not* work
22:11	unseeingAugur	Did you ask for advice?
22:11	tenaciousBeast	So I picked the least-disruptive change I could think of that would still result in her not being so reckless
22:11	unseeingAugur	Did you try using buffs?
22:11	tenaciousBeast	And I did it
22:11	ventricularPipefitter	You're *Heart*, you have a HELL OF A LOT OF TOOLS between 'words' and 'stick my hand in'
22:12	unseeingAugur	Did you /ask/ her what you could /change/ to /help/?
22:12	unseeingAugur	You reached into her. Without her express permission?
22:13	unseeingAugur	And took something she valued and excised it?
22:13	ventricularPipefitter	Diminished it.
22:13	unseeingAugur	To me, it sounds like you shiny raped her because it seemed to be the fastest, easiest solution for you at the time.
22:14	amaranthineSwell	Come, Vents.  Surely you don't expect someone like /this/ to be able to manage the mental exercises necessary to practice moderation?
22:14	unseeingAugur	Pardon me. Suppressed.
22:14	futureSnaplockSunblood	Humans need mental exercises for moderation? Really?
22:15	tenaciousTheseus	Sigh
22:15	ventricularPipefitter	Demeaned.
22:15	tenaciousTheseus	If someone had a value that would not only get them killed, but you as well, would you sit there and let it happen?
22:16	unseeingAugur	I'd talk to them about it and do everything I could to let them know that it was a problem.
22:16	ventricularPipefitter	I'm grown up enough to know that I've got to have things in my life I'm willing to die for, Adam.
22:16	tenaciousTheseus	They did that
22:16	futureSnaplockSunblood	I'd wait for the killings and if they'd happen I'd jump back and make them not happen.
22:16	tenaciousTheseus	We did that
22:16	tenaciousTheseus	That did jack shit
22:16	ventricularPipefitter	TB, can I get your name?
22:17	unseeingAugur	Are you asking whether I would shiny rape someone and forcibly alter their identity in order to save my own hide?
22:17	unseeingAugur	Because no, I wouldn't.
22:18	tenaciousBeast	Timmy Bright
22:18	tenaciousTheseus	Maybe it's just me
22:18	tenaciousTheseus	But
22:18	tenaciousTheseus	I want to live
22:18	tenaciousTheseus	I don't want to kill or hury
22:18	tenaciousTheseus	But
22:18	ventricularPipefitter	Do you prefer Tim, or Timmy?
22:18	tenaciousTheseus	If it saves people, then I will
22:19	tenaciousBeast	Everyone calls me Timmy
22:20	MusilogicalDecayafier	nice to meet you Timmy
22:20	futureSnaplockSunblood	Can I assume that for you guys this is the social-moral equivalent of undeadifying someone because they ain't fighting for you enough?
22:20	ventricularPipefitter	For them? I'd say, sure, yeah.
22:20	ventricularPipefitter	Timmy, can you tell me again how Dreaming Sarah feels about what you did to Waking Sarah?
22:21	ventricularPipefitter	She's feeling the effects of it, isn't she?
22:21	amaranthineSwell	Going back over the same ground, huh?
22:21	tenaciousBeast	She's feeling... bad vibes, but they've got distinct shinies so the direct effects don't touch her
22:21	unseeingAugur	If it came down to the life of an innocent, I would make sure every other avenue of possibility was explored, that every single other door was closed, and that the other person would not, and could not possibly, listen to reason, before I contemplated shiny rape.
22:21	unseeingAugur	To clarify for you, Tens.
22:22	tenaciousBeast	But she misses how her waking self usually is
22:23	tenaciousBeast	And
22:23	tenaciousBeast	feels bad for what I thought I had to do to her
22:23	ventricularPipefitter	Was it fair to take Waking Sarah, and the way she's meant to be, away from Dreaming Sarah?
22:23	tenaciousBeast	...
22:23	tenaciousTheseus	She already was
22:24	tenaciousTheseus	She was a person before TB did anything
22:25	ventricularPipefitter	'Little' changes can have effects you didn't anticipate on other people,can't they?
22:25	tenaciousBeast	waking sarah
22:25	tenaciousBeast	I mean
22:25	tenaciousBeast	dreaming sarah
22:25	tenaciousBeast	ugh
22:26	tenaciousBeast	we only have until the end of the session at best
22:26	tenaciousBeast	I mean
22:26	tenaciousBeast	...
22:26	tenaciousBeast	I don't know what I mean
22:26	ventricularPipefitter	Whether you can save her or not, you owe it to her to give her her sister back.
22:27	tenaciousBeast	... yes
22:27	tenaciousTheseus	Didn't she choose the imps over her sister?
22:27	tenaciousTheseus	Is that still a thing that happened?
22:27	amaranthineSwell	That's blindingly obvious.
22:27	tenaciousBeast	but I don't think we can afford to let her be leader anymore
22:27	futureSnaplockSunblood	Oh, is this a mutiny thing then?
22:27	ventricularPipefitter	So, Adam? Sleeping-Sarah didn't make that choice.
22:28	futureSnaplockSunblood	Pretty sure you don't need to shinyfuck someone for a mutiny
22:28	tenaciousTheseus	Snaplock
22:28	tenaciousTheseus	Shush
22:29	futureSnaplockSunblood	What?
22:29	tenaciousTheseus	Not helping
22:29	tenaciousBeast	you're right
22:30	tenaciousBeast	I... should undo what I did
22:30	tenaciousBeast	Now, not later
22:30	tenaciousTheseus	That's what we said before
22:30	tenaciousBeast	While they're still both alive
22:30	MusilogicalDecayafier	have fun
22:30	ventricularPipefitter	You should also /apologize/.
22:31	tenaciousBeast	yes
22:31	tenaciousBeast	if she'll listen
22:32	ventricularPipefitter	"I'm sorry, I was wrong." Doesn't take much time.
22:33	tenaciousBeast	No it doesn't
22:33	disasterAverted	uhh
22:33	disasterAverted	confession time
22:33	futureSnaplockSunblood	What happened now?
22:33	disasterAverted	I've been holding sarah's head up to the screen for about the past twenty minutes
22:34	disasterAverted	Right now she doesn't care about party politics, but when you fix what you did
22:34	ventricularPipefitter	...
22:34	disasterAverted	she WILL remember this
22:34	futureSnaplockSunblood	Just her head or the rest of her too?
22:34	disasterAverted	ha ha
22:34	ventricularPipefitter	It's /attached/, you monster.
22:34	unseeingAugur	Supporting her head, letting the rest of her be limp.
22:34	disasterAverted	Technically I just ordered her to read it
22:34	disasterAverted	With Rage powers
22:35	ventricularPipefitter	Mm-hm.
22:35	disasterAverted	But I went for the more physical description, sorry
22:35	ventricularPipefitter	Hey, Timmy?
22:35	ventricularPipefitter	If you get punched, you deserve that too.
22:35	ventricularPipefitter	Take your lumps and be wrong.
22:35	tenaciousBeast	Ok
22:35	MusilogicalDecayafier	DA, I don't know if you are really evil or really smart
22:36	amaranthineSwell	Why choose just one?
22:36	tenaciousBeast	I think the one thing we do have in common is that I am willing to take my lumps for the cause
22:36	disasterAverted	I waited until it looked like you'd mostly worn him down
22:36	MusilogicalDecayafier	Because we have you AS
22:36	disasterAverted	So the answer should be kinda clear
22:36	ventricularPipefitter	Good man.
22:37	disasterAverted	Though I guarantee you she's going to want to read the whole rest of the log once she's back to normal
22:38	disasterAverted	Not my fault
22:38	futureSnaplockSunblood	You're a clever bastard, I'll give you that.
22:39	ventricularPipefitter	Kind of /is/, DA
22:39	unseeingAugur	But it's not a bad thing you did.
22:39	MusilogicalDecayafier	mostly
22:42	MusilogicalDecayafier	soooooo, hows everyone doing?
22:42	amaranthineSwell	Do you want the truth, or do you want something that keeps from making waves?
22:42	obsessiveParticle	Um, that would be a time I could start talking, since I wouldn't be interrupting, right?
22:42	tenaciousTheseus	Sigh
22:42	tenaciousBeast	Yes
22:42	futureSnaplockSunblood	What the- when did you get here?
22:42	futureSnaplockSunblood	And who the fuck are you?
22:43	tenaciousBeast	I've got to go undo what I did nwo
22:43	MusilogicalDecayafier	he's been here a while I think?
22:43	amaranthineSwell	Good job, Snaplock.  Wonderful powers of observation you've got there.
22:43	MusilogicalDecayafier	have fun TB
22:43		tenaciousBeast has left the channel
22:43	obsessiveParticle	It's okay. It happens.
22:43	disasterAverted	thank you everyone
...
22:44	disasterAverted	I guess I at least owe it to you guys to stick around and treat you like real people for once
22:44	disasterAverted	So I'm not running off for now