<jwinterm> I hope you're happy
<asymptotically> THANKS A LOT gingeropolous. my botnet has been gimped and now all of my children will starve to death
<asymptotically> cement doesnt buy itself
<jwinterm> All pull requests will be considered safe until the US dollar valuation of 1 Wownero equals $1000. After this valuation has been reached, more research will be needed to introduce experimental cryptography and/or code into the codebase.
<jwinterm> pretty sure it was gingeropolous that added that to readme
<jwinterm> git blame says wowario[m] but pretty sure it was ginger
<niocbrrrrrr> lucky for me imma too stewpid to blame anything on
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<gingeropolous> what did i do now?
<gingeropolous> .hr
<gingeropolous> .network
<monerobux> The current block height is 2,101,375. Difficulty is 155,686,833,943. Hashrate is 1297.39 Mh/s.
<jwinterm> I thought you added that line about all PRs get merged
<gingeropolous> i said no such thing. i said they will be considered safe. also, I didn't merge it in. Someone coulda swatted it down
<gingeropolous> but howsat lead to asicificiasoastn?
<jwinterm> .hmm I didn't read it that way and already merged PR
<monerobux> https://imgur.com/eDbK1PD.jpg
<gingeropolous> which PR?
<jwinterm> https://github.com/wownero/wownero/pull/256
<jwinterm> it doesn't fork until next february
<gingeropolous> ugh
<gingeropolous> well dats stupid
<jwinterm> so I guess someone else could submit another PR to not switch it
<jwinterm> eh
<jwinterm> I'm not really sure what to do
<jwinterm> I kinda think I'm coming around to the merge mining is not a good idea camp
<gingeropolous> oh, is that the alternative in the face of a larger network owning a certain HW class?
<jwinterm> and it would be kinda cool if wownero forked to sha3 and made open source pink and orange asics
<jwinterm> https://github.com/wownero/meta/issues/27
<niocbrrrrrr> do slight variations in a sha3 hash that makes them different really mean that an asic for one of them cannot be used for a different one?
<niocbrrrrrr> pony said the benefit of sh3 was that it was easy to asic and therefore be more like commodity hardware
<jwinterm> yea, asic can't deal with slight variation
<jwinterm> but first step to open source asic would be open source fpga
<jwinterm> which can handle variation
<niocbrrrrrr> so pony was wrong eh
<gingeropolous> it would be even cooler if wownero made a randomx asic
<jwinterm> well, there are proprietary sha3 implementations available for license already
<jwinterm> because it is sha3 standard
<gingeropolous> or wowx
<gingeropolous> think of that, ironic crypto bootstraps development of new class of CPUs
<cisme_> .................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
<niocbrrrrrr> I thought my 3900x was an wowsic
<niocbrrrrrr> you missing one .
<cisme_> .
<gingeropolous> i dunno. switching to sha3 doesn't seem reckless and balls to wall enough for wownero
<gingeropolous> its not wow enough
<jwinterm> fair
<gingeropolous> a software and network with a gaping goatse as its core splash screen demands brazen paths
<gingeropolous> man, that one really got me
<gingeropolous> i just didn't expect that on a terminal
<jwinterm> same
<jwinterm> maybe cisme_ can produce pro-asic propaganda artwork and sway opinion
<jwinterm> or gaping goatse artwork
<cisme_> lol
<cisme_> will do if needed
<gingeropolous> i think the most outlandish and reckless (but still wow) thing for wownero to do would be to find a way to get rid of pools
<gingeropolous> like, there are proposals that make sense... but they work too well
<cisme_> were would we swim tho?
<cisme_> lakes?
<gingeropolous> you think this is a school for anTSSS?
<cisme_> needs to be at least 3 times this big
<gingeropolous> i dunno.
<jwinterm> is there any reasonable way to get rid of pools?
<jwinterm> that just leads to more custodial pooling I thought
<gingeropolous> i thought there was some merit to the whole hashing the blockchain thing
<jwinterm> oh, making it like i/o bound so you can't feed jobs to pool miners in time?
<gingeropolous> yep
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<jwinterm> there was the steem thing where miners had to sign with their private key or something to hash
<jwinterm> how has no one done the blockchain hashing thing if it works?
<gingeropolous> i dunno. i suspect if these things work, they work too well and no one mines
<gingeropolous> but its like, im not mining wownero for the blockreward
<jwinterm> that seems reckless
<jwinterm> for sure
<gingeropolous> and in some weird way, that might be why it works
<gingeropolous> for wownero
<gingeropolous> smooth once postulated that it woulda been interesting if bitcoin went the route that other p2p software went
<gingeropolous> you don't get rewarded for keeping torrents up
<gingeropolous> u didn';t get rewarded for seeding on napster
<jwinterm> I mean, you do have a ratio, right?
<gingeropolous> u did it because you wanted to fucking change the world
<cisme_> the reward u felt on napster and for seeding
<cisme_> is superiority
<gingeropolous> i mean, sure. ratio smatio
<gingeropolous> but i aint trading ratios for hookers and blo
<gingeropolous> or putting them in speculative markets
<cisme_> wonder if a high seed ratio has ever gotten ne one laid
<gingeropolous> u don't get rewarded for running an i2p node
<gingeropolous> besides getting access to the network
<gingeropolous> but yeah. sha3 is fine i guess, but u might as well rename it blahnero
<jwinterm> permacoin apparently tried both
<gingeropolous> to the googles i go
<jwinterm> Permacoin is designed such that:
<jwinterm> a) payment private keys are bound to puzzle solutions – outsourcing private keys is risky for miners, b) sequential and
<jwinterm> random storage access is critical for the mining efficiency,
<jwinterm> thus it disincentives miners from outsourcing data. I
<jwinterm> https://www.usenix.org/system/files/sec19-szalachowski.pdf
<jwinterm> towards the end of that paper
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<jwinterm> cismee, why does your internet suck so bad?
<gingeropolous> so they tried both. did it work?
<jwinterm> have you ever heard of permacoin?
<jwinterm> randomx already uses a scratchpad, right, so just need to modify scratchpad to be 1 gb of data pseudorandomly selected from wownero blockchain, right?
<jwinterm> and also make miners sign blocks with their private key
<gingeropolous> who's heard of wownero?
<jwinterm> yea I think that will just nethash go to zero
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<jwinterm> https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=today%205-y&q=wownero,permacoin
<jwinterm> wownero wins
<jwinterm> barely
<gingeropolous> :)
<jwinterm> for some reason ukraine really likes permacoin
<jwinterm> but usa and russia love the wow
<gingeropolous> i gotta re-read the cons for merge mining
<gingeropolous> i mean, at the worst, it kicks the can down the road in the scenario that monero might turn stupid and wownero would need to do something else
<jwinterm> the consensus in the github thread seemed to be it's onerous to pool ops and if you do it without offering a unique add-on (rootstock, namecoin, tari) then it's just a zombiecoin
<gingeropolous> because that seems the one con that rings
<jwinterm> which would make doge a zombiecoin
<gingeropolous> oh the poor pool ops
<jwinterm> fuwa at bitmain hates randomx tho, merged or not
<jwinterm> and he makes most cool wownero apps
<gingeropolous> really?
<jwinterm> fuwa at bitmain please confirm
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<jwinterm> maybe hates was too strong https://github.com/wownero/meta/issues/27#issuecomment-626128756
<jwinterm> but I feel like he's swung further to sha3 darkside since making that comment
<gingeropolous> u could mod randomx enough to fit on these things: https://www.upmem.com/technology/
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<gingeropolous> from monero-pow, <hyc> only 32bit CPUs, not great for number crunching, but will eat up data-intensive algos
<gingeropolous> i dunno if randomx would work 32 bit
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<jwinterm> that BugBud guy is totally insane in that thread
<jwinterm> pretty sure niocbrrrrrr is BugBud
<gingeropolous> heh.
<gingeropolous> heres an idea
<niocbrrrrrr> I am only on irc
<gingeropolous> you make wownero merge mined but all block rewards are locked up for 100 years
<gingeropolous> the ones that are mergemined
<niocbrrrrrr> and 2x a month on reddddittttttt if that
<niocbrrrrrr> lock wow until a person is 70
<niocbrrrrrr> wait dats ng
<jwinterm> then only niocbrrrrrr gets coisn
<niocbrrrrrr> only I can sell them :D
<gingeropolous> no that would pump the price!
<niocbrrrrrr> wait orange man would probably mine then
<niocbrrrrrr> I hereby direct the nsa to mine wow
<niocbrrrrrr> cause reasons
<gingeropolous> its a pickle indeed jwinterm
<jwinterm> if you make the 2 GB scratchpad in randomx data from the blockchain, does that kill remote nodes?
<jwinterm> or at least make them totally dependent on trusting the remote node?
<gingeropolous> i wouldn't think so?????
<gingeropolous> mining generally doesn't have anything to do with transaction creation and broadcasting
<jwinterm> yea I think you're correct
<niocbrrrrrr> This tech is going to "hit the reset button" on all human activity...
<niocbrrrrrr> ads are getting more believable lol
<niocbrrrrrr> .usd
<monerobux> Monero price in USD = $66.30
<niocbrrrrrr> .network
<monerobux> The current block height is 2,101,404. Difficulty is 155,836,514,137. Hashrate is 1298.64 Mh/s.
<niocbrrrrrr> !network
<wowbux> The current block height is 212,606, difficulty is 9.90e+08, and hashrate is 3,300 kh/s
<niocbrrrrrr> .c 66.3/.00376
<monerobux> niocbrrrrrr: 17,632.97872
<jwinterm> niocbrrrrrr, it's not that much of a difference
<jwinterm> because 10x more wow coins
<niocbrrrrrr> .c 17633*1298
<monerobux> niocbrrrrrr: 22,887,634
<jwinterm> well, like 2x right at this moment, but 10x ultimately
<gingeropolous> i mean, jeff could run 1 stolen computer with a blockchain and the other 19 on a LAN and still probably be fine
<gingeropolous> the latency /bandwidth is low enough
<jwinterm> yea, lan pool parties
<niocbrrrrrr> ok so 2,888 vs monero 1298
<niocbrrrrrr> who the F is mining wow?
<jwinterm> I think my miner is turned on right now
<gingeropolous> jeff
<jwinterm> mostly profit switcher rn https://miningpoolstats.stream/wownero
<gingeropolous> oh, but we must cater to the pools
<gingeropolous> because they're so damn *awesome*
<jwinterm> I didn't say that
<niocbrrrrrr> .c 143/2.5
<monerobux> niocbrrrrrr: 57.2
<qvqc> BugBud is makin brusselsprouts in my kitchen
<gingeropolous> i know, im just snarkily responding to  stuff in that github thread, here.
<gingeropolous> for some reason
<gingeropolous> because I just read them
<qvqc> isn't nioc afaict
<niocbrrrrrr> .c 57.2/1.7
<monerobux> niocbrrrrrr: 33.64705882
<jwinterm> but personally do just aesthetically like the idea of proof-of-work being as close to the thermodynamic limit as possible
<niocbrrrrrr> oh it a factor of 34
<gingeropolous> yeah i think thats a meme
<niocbrrrrrr> mine wow!!!!
<gingeropolous> to post-justify asics
<gingeropolous> because corn had no choice
<gingeropolous> from a previous choice of keeping things backwards / forwards compatible whatever
<niocbrrrrrr> .c  22,887,634/34
<monerobux> ValueError: could not convert string to float: <type 'exceptions.SyntaxError'>: invalid syntax (<unknown>, line 1) (file "/usr/local/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/sopel/modules/calc.py", line 44, in c)
<jwinterm> I mean, it does make sense from the proof standpoint
<jwinterm> it is more provable the less complex it is
<niocbrrrrrr> .c 22887634/34000
<monerobux> niocbrrrrrr: 673.1657059
<gingeropolous> randomx isn't complex
<gingeropolous> its big boned
<niocbrrrrrr> switching all my monero hr to wow
<jwinterm> .rip in peace to fellow memecoin https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1636509.msg54453833#msg54453833
<monerobux> (X_X) ☜ (◉▂◉ ) we hardly knew ye
<monerobux> [ [ANN][NYAN] NyanCoin - ★★★V1.3 Released!★★★ ] - bitcointalk.org
<gingeropolous> i mean, you could just go extreme and make yourself the only block producers, so you stamp 1 block a day
<gingeropolous> seems to work for a bunch of scam coins out there. "20 block producers, totally fine"
<gingeropolous> people that vote for consensus or whatever
<jwinterm> that sounds like a lot of work for me tho
<jwinterm> like personally
<gingeropolous> well you'd get all the blockrewards
<jwinterm> yea but I already have more wow than I know what to do with
<gingeropolous> sorry, im being ridiculous
<gingeropolous> i dunno. it doesn't seem like something that needs to be done now though. but good to have an option in the quiver
<BugBud> I think it should be Jeff that runs the one node, Jeff coin, secured by Jeff, validated by Jeff, trust no one but Jeff
<gingeropolous> yay BugBud !
<jwinterm> can we see a photo of jeff?
<BugBud> Jeff does not use Fb
<BugBud> jeff does not use instagram
<jwinterm> jeff asking for wownero https://twitter.com/MollieStratton/status/1262474152377593875
<monerobux> [ MollieStratton on Twitter: "… " ] - twitter.com
<gingeropolous> but yeah. im never gonna be pro asic, but i get the concern of an overpowering network potentially mucking things up. well, not even network, just profit crazed miners that would pummel a poor innocent network like wownero for some cryptopennies
<BugBud> I think thats part of the allure
<gingeropolous> there's gotta be a better solution than just hoping some centralized entity fixes everything with magic unicorn asics
<jwinterm> centralized entity would be me and wowario[m] trying to get fpga and maybe later asic code open sourced
<jwinterm> seems to be current strategy
<gingeropolous> yeah, but whose gonna build an asic for a level 10 memecoin?
<jwinterm> https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/7042/how-much-does-it-cost-to-have-a-custom-asic-made
<jwinterm> in a year or so NRE cost for normal asic will only be like 5 monero
<gingeropolous> lol
<BugBud> Think of WOW as a sort of radioactive hot potato, anybody that holds it is crazy and no one is crazy enough to hold lots of it for any extended period of time. That is how we assure a fair start. The Madman theory in action, olny the craziest survive.
<niocbrrrrrr> "no one is crazy enough to hold lots of it for any extended period of time" ,= u sure about that?
<niocbrrrrrr> ***umption
<gingeropolous> i wonder how much wownero could be tweaked to get close to being asicable
<gingeropolous> but still cpu equivalent
<gingeropolous> like, you could build the asic, but the asic would perform somewhat equivalent of a CPU
<BugBud> Yes Genral purpose ASICS
<gingeropolous> i mean, because no matter how much randomx may be able to fend off asics, ... you can still pack more of a custom chip into one thing than you can buy a bunch of CPUs etc
<niocbrrrrrr> .weather nioc
<monerobux> In New York, US it is 15.57 C with a low of 13.48 and high of 17.15 C, humidity is 63%, winds of 4.6 m/s at an angle of 20 deg with clear sky.
<gingeropolous> i.e., you can spend $20k on n 3900x systems, or you could buy 2 randomwow asics for that price
<gingeropolous> and they'd perform about the same
<jwinterm> can't you just make a PCB that has like 25 3900x sockets?
<gingeropolous> i dunno
<gingeropolous> why do all servers max out at 4 CPUs
<gingeropolous> and those are rare
<gingeropolous> ud think there'd be more of them, because, yeah, scale.
<niocbrrrrrr> how to schedule ram access
<niocbrrrrrr> shot in the dark
<gingeropolous> because i personally think that "the good guys" should design a randomx asic before the "bad guys" do, and open source it
<gingeropolous> scorched earth policy
<jwinterm> Motherboards are limited by the limitations of the Integrated Memory Controller found on all modern CPUs.
<niocbrrrrrr> super computers are basically lots of lesser things ties together
<jwinterm> Most Intel and AMD desktop CPUs (e.g. Ryzen, Core i7, i5, etc) have a limit of 2 memory channels with 2 DIMMs per channel. This means that a motherboard can only have up to 4 DIMM slots when designed for one of these CPUs.
<niocbrrrrrr> ties
<niocbrrrrrr> tied
<BugBud> Its such a waste to produce a bunch of ASICs that are useless for anything else. Its really nice to be able to turn your machine to doing something else when you want to or if you want to resell it.
<gingeropolous> so if CPUs are 100%, and the good guys can make a randomx asic thats 200%, supposedly they've maxed out the headroom for further gains
<gingeropolous> so that leaves the bad guys only the last 10% of gains
<gingeropolous> to 210% or whatever
<gingeropolous> prolly no manufacturer is gonna invest for 10%
<jwinterm> yea but randomx is so complex that will always be much more of an open question than sha3 or whatever
<jwinterm> it just is
<gingeropolous> well, randomwow could be modded to be less complex
<gingeropolous> i mean, if asic manufacturers have a grab bag of stuff that you can clobble together, we could figure out which ones are cheapest
<gingeropolous> so it ends up being a super dumb CPU. I dunno
<gingeropolous> this is like getting into CPU design
<jwinterm> yea, maybe randomwow tuned down to make it easier on mobile people and also change scratchpad to use blockchain so kill pools
<jwinterm> for next year or three
<gingeropolous> i wonder if tevador would be intrigued
<jwinterm> right, well CPU design is all proprietary IP
<BugBud> Not so
<BugBud> Open Power
<BugBud> Power 9
<jwinterm> who's mining wow on risc-v?
<jwinterm> or mining anything?
<gingeropolous> well, an ASIC is a CPU
<jwinterm> that is semantics and it's wrong
<gingeropolous> no, the other way around is wrong :P
<BugBud> You get great heashrate on an open power system today with Monero
<niocbrrrrrr> sucks vs ryzen
<niocbrrrrrr> I'll keep pulling
<gingeropolous> ""Normal" ASIC: In this solution, you are designing things down to the gate level. You take your VHDL/Verilog and compile it. The design for the individual gates are taken from a library of gates & devices that has been approved by the chip manufacturer (so they know it works with their process). "
<gingeropolous> i mean, if this library thing is real, it seems you could take the union of CPU stuff and ASIC library stuff and find where a modded rx might be asicable
<jwinterm> yea but you don't get to see the library
<BugBud> In its current state, the RandomX implementation does have support for POWER crypto acceleration, but it lacks the JIT support of x86 and arm64. The README states the JIT has at least 10x of an effect on hash rates.
<jwinterm> will move conversation to github thread for posterity
<BugBud> No plans to switch to SHa-3 should be laid before an open source miner is actually fully available otherwise its just a ploy by Jihan WOW to pwn the ecosystem
<jwinterm> the switch is flagged for feb 2021 right now
<jwinterm> I'm sure we can get open source fpga done by then
<jwinterm> and if not can reflag
<BugBud> That should be removed and the ASIC should be out for a while before assuming we will have one and jumping the gun
<rottensox> <@jwinterm> I kinda think I'm coming around to the merge mining is not a good idea camp
<rottensox> praise be!
<BugBud> Also for all the reasons Monero users hate ASICs ( so much out there ) we shouldnt go down that road
<jwinterm> I am a monero user that doesn't hate asics
<jwinterm> fwiw
<niocbrrrrrr> burn him!!
<jwinterm> to me it seems like the logical conclusion of proof-of-work
<jwinterm> I get wanting to keep general purpose for distro
<niocbrrrrrr> going outside to check for zombies
<BugBud> The point is you have seen the arguments put before the community. The choice not to go with Asics comes from a desire not to have a centralized coin with very few miners and even open source ASICs wont really change the fact that people will not want to get asics just to mine WOW. Lots of value in getting people to mine tiny amounts on CPUs so that many people can get some amount. That aspect of the
<BugBud> distribution is important to the network effect.
<BugBud> I can tell anyone to go mine some WOW, sure its not allot but it gets it in their hands. With time they mostly decide they want more and buy some.
<jwinterm> I get it, however it is also dominated by profit switching pools and one hour block times are not uncommon because of this
<BugBud> I think SHA-3 wont hold a candle to future optical proof of work implementations.
<jwinterm> and it sucks to verify on mobile
<BugBud> I feel like remote node is a fine solution for mobile
<BugBud> Rapid growth and improvement in silicon photonics over the last two decades has led to the commercialization of silicon photonic co-processors (integrated circuits that use photons instead of electrons to perform specialized computing tasks) for low-energy deep learning. oPoW is optimized for this technology such that miners are incentivized to use specialized, energy-efficient photonics for computation.
<BugBud> Beyond providing energy savings, oPoW has the potential to improve network scalability, enable decentralized mining outside of low electricity cost areas, and democratize issuance.
<jwinterm> spreading the virus https://www.reddit.com/r/CryptoCurrency/comments/gmdmc4/daily_discussion_may_19_2020_gmt0/fr3bnfr?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x
<monerobux> [REDDIT] Daily Discussion - May 19, 2020 (GMT+0) (self.CryptoCurrency) | 5 points (100.0%) | 38 comments | Posted by AutoModerator | Created at 2020-05-19 - 00:09:18
<jwinterm> remote nodes kinda suck on monero
<jwinterm> and is dependent on people running remote nodes for free just because
<BugBud> Remote nodes work pretty well on Monero
<BugBud>  tend to disagree with you there
<jwinterm> they're ok, they suck compared to electrum
<jwinterm> because you still have to scan every block
<BugBud> load up Monerujo it works fine
<jwinterm> yea it just takes 10-20 min to catch up if you haven't opened it in a month or three