(10-12-15 23:36:22) <@barabbas`> What is the difference between a fetus one second before the third trimester and one second after, that makes one a person, the other not?
(10-12-15 23:36:24) <+Starbase93> Mitino And here the doctor told me to go see Alice.
(10-12-15 23:36:24) <+Theory> [Shoegazer], So 'looking like a human' is what makes one a human?
(10-12-15 23:36:31) <+kissa> Scrappy:  :)
(10-12-15 23:36:37) <+[Shoegazer]> LiberalGuilt, at best third trimester
(10-12-15 23:37:00) <@Sara_Ks> [Shoegazer] Thats simply a copout. It was your claim, I'm asking for your support. I have given one which shows the studies and the commentary of a professional in the field, the claim you make is wrong. BTW, here is another http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/issues/sx-sbd2.htm I can give you dozens of references showing my point, again, CAN YOU give me ONE to support you?
(10-12-15 23:37:02) <+Starbase93> kissa Careful. Scrappy likes to compare abortion to gay marriage.
(10-12-15 23:37:02) <+Mitino> according to scientific facts, God is the biggest abortionist in history
(10-12-15 23:37:08) <+Mitino> wow, imagine that
(10-12-15 23:37:13) <+Mitino> and yet it is true
(10-12-15 23:37:15) <+[Shoegazer]> soooo no sources got it
(10-12-15 23:37:17) <+kissa> a young teen, who finds herself pregnant,  does her life has any value at all
(10-12-15 23:37:35) <+Mitino> kissa, not according to Christian fascists
(10-12-15 23:37:38) <+kissa> hiya Starbase93
(10-12-15 23:37:42) <+Banquo> The difference is in brain development, the start of a fetus becoming a biographical entity, not just a biological one
(10-12-15 23:37:44) <+Scrappy> "finds herself pregnant" ... like it was an accident?
(10-12-15 23:37:48) <+Starbase93> kissa pM?
(10-12-15 23:38:16) * +Scrappy is pro-choice. I just believe your choice takes place when you choose to engage in intercourse, not when you're regretting the consequences aftewards.
(10-12-15 23:38:20) <@barabbas`> Banquo I get it. I understand you need a way to justify killing the unborn so  you can sleep at night. So you give an arbitrary date that a fetus becomes a person.
(10-12-15 23:38:37) <+kissa> Scrappy:   yes, that is what EXACTLY  it was....    you and your young lover
(10-12-15 23:38:38) <+[Shoegazer]> the choice takes place before and it takes place after.
(10-12-15 23:38:41) <@barabbas`> Banquo The brain doesn't quit developing until the person is late in their teens.
(10-12-15 23:38:42) <+Mitino> finds herself pregnant.. you know, Scrappy, the way you might wake up and find yourself disemboweled?
(10-12-15 23:38:46) <+Scrappy> kissa :-D
(10-12-15 23:38:48) <+LiberalGuilt> i would say personhood is based on certain developmental markers
(10-12-15 23:38:49) <+Banquo> barabbas`: I'm well aware of that
(10-12-15 23:38:52) <+LiberalGuilt> it isn't even specific to humans
(10-12-15 23:38:55) <+kissa> :)
(10-12-15 23:38:59) <+Scrappy> My wife turns 34 tomorrow.  She *IS* eight years younger.
(10-12-15 23:39:01) <+Banquo> thanks for that useless fact that does nothing in support of any argument
(10-12-15 23:39:02) <@Sara_Ks> [Shoegazer] Well I'm going to assume you have zero support for your claim
(10-12-15 23:39:03) * +urMuslimneighbor (Mibbit@ool-ad02908e.dyn.optonline.net) Quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
(10-12-15 23:39:22) <+[Shoegazer]> well look, you claimed you had all the studies
(10-12-15 23:39:22) <@barabbas`> Banquo: So, how can brain development determine person or not? a brain is developing for 20 years.
(10-12-15 23:39:27) <+Theory> Sara_Ks, Of course he does.
(10-12-15 23:39:42) <+[Shoegazer]> and so far you've not supplied one. since you claim was all the studies well, I'd love to see at least one actual scientific study
(10-12-15 23:39:43) <+kissa> Scrappy:   congrats, she is married
(10-12-15 23:39:49) <+[Shoegazer]> but you still haven't been able to do that.
(10-12-15 23:39:53) <+Mitino> christians do seem to get a certain amount of sexual enjoynment out of the abortion debate
(10-12-15 23:40:01) <+Starbase93> All I know for sure if abortion had been legal in 1948, I would not be here.
(10-12-15 23:40:11) <+LiberalGuilt> a brain does develop for 20 years, but does a brain developing itself negate personhood? obviously not
(10-12-15 23:40:15) <@barabbas`> Mitino How do you make that connection, and it better be good if you are to remain here.
(10-12-15 23:40:20) <+Mitino> and it seems to be confirmed every time one gets to visit the channel
(10-12-15 23:40:28) * barabbas` sets mode: -v Mitino
(10-12-15 23:40:30) <+Scrappy> "The personality of a child begins in utero."  http://blog.neurogistics.com/index.php/personality-is-developed-in-womb/
(10-12-15 23:40:34) <+kissa> Starbase93:  you just would be  Starbase94  !!!
(10-12-15 23:40:39) <+Banquo> barabbas`: I explained this all above before you entered the conversation.
(10-12-15 23:40:51) <@Sara_Ks> Scrappy Correct
(10-12-15 23:41:56) <+LiberalGuilt> that's a reference to the same article sara posted which is itself not a study
(10-12-15 23:41:58) <+[Shoegazer]> haha wow no one here knows how to link to actual studies that's really an interesting thing.
(10-12-15 23:42:02) <@barabbas`> Banquo; so explain it again. You said a fetus becomes a person in the third trimester. I asked what is the difference between one second before and after. you said brain development. I said the brain keeps developing for  years outside the womb. It seems you have applied an arbitrary date just to assauage your conscience and for no real scientific reason.
(10-12-15 23:42:19) <@Sara_Ks> [Shoegazer] Its a copout on your part. I'm not going to hunt for what I and and YOU know is there. Scrappy posted something, I posted something, its very clear in all you read that personality begins before birth, why not just admit you misspoke?
(10-12-15 23:42:30) <+kissa> absolutely,  you can see trace of grandfather in the young grandson,  who doesn't like chicken, but if he must eat some,  be it dried out chicken breast or something like that.... and no pepper corns in any dishes
(10-12-15 23:42:35) <+[Shoegazer]> No you haven't posted to any studies
(10-12-15 23:42:51) <+[Shoegazer]> I haven't been supplied one single thing that shows that it is very clear
(10-12-15 23:42:53) <+[Shoegazer]> No.
(10-12-15 23:42:55) <+Banquo> barabbas`: I said more than just 'brain development'. Go back and read my ENTIRE statement
(10-12-15 23:43:05) <@barabbas`> +bl*!*Mitino@BSN-61-20-81.dynamic.siol.net 3days swearing, insulting barabbas`
(10-12-15 23:43:13) <+LiberalGuilt> the brain is suffiicently developed in the 3rd trimester to begin looking to see if the fetus has personhood. that the brain continues to develop doesn't negate that. i think we'll find that ultimately personhood is an arbitrary point set by us
(10-12-15 23:43:24) <+LiberalGuilt> there is no objective line we can pull out of the universe that will tell us
(10-12-15 23:43:31) <+LiberalGuilt> we have to come up with the criteria ourselves.
(10-12-15 23:44:28) <@Sara_Ks> [Shoegazer] Then you aren't reading what is posted. I find this very odd... You won't believe established professionals in the field, but if I even post an abscure study ( And there were some in the posts) you claim you would believe it. Its just a copout and you won't admit it
(10-12-15 23:44:46) <+[Shoegazer]> Sure I am, that's how I know they aren't studies
(10-12-15 23:44:52) <+kissa> barabbas`:   if you were a female young poor collage student,  no family backing yourself up,  what would you do, if you suddenly find yourself pregnant.... I think, many americans can't understand, what it is to be poor female ...trying to make it in this world
(10-12-15 23:45:06) <+[Shoegazer]> I also don't see that they are "established professionals in the field" no.
(10-12-15 23:45:27) <+Scrappy> This article directly cites several studies: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/03/opinion/03kristof.html?_r=2
(10-12-15 23:45:31) <+[Shoegazer]> Like all of those just linked to news articles so I'm not really sure where you imagine you linked a study
(10-12-15 23:45:48) <+[Shoegazer]> an op ed piece that references studies aren't studies guys.
(10-12-15 23:46:01) <+[Shoegazer]> That is someone opining about stuff second hand.
(10-12-15 23:46:18) <+Scrappy> I could copy and paste the study titles and authors for you, but why should I when you can read them for yourself.
(10-12-15 23:46:19) <@barabbas`> [21:42] *Mitino* hey grandpa, who is fucking your wife in the name of Jesus
(10-12-15 23:46:34) <+Scrappy> This isn't a matter of we can't post them.  It's a matter of you're too obstinate and lazy to accept them.
(10-12-15 23:46:38) <+[Shoegazer]> because you should know what those studies actually say before you post things about them
(10-12-15 23:47:07) <+Scrappy> I read the article author's summations and citations prior to posting the link.
(10-12-15 23:47:13) <+Theory> barabbas`, You don't have to post that to the channel..You have said that to me before.
(10-12-15 23:47:25) <+[Shoegazer]> ...you read his opinions about the sources yes...
(10-12-15 23:47:28) <+[Shoegazer]> that's not the same thing
(10-12-15 23:47:36) <@barabbas`> Theory: Post me saying that to anyone or admit you are lying.
(10-12-15 23:47:40) <@barabbas`> one chance
(10-12-15 23:48:01) <+Scrappy> [Shoegazer], Sara_Ks and I have cited more than one source, including those with direct links to specific studies.
(10-12-15 23:48:02) <+kissa> barabbas`:   only reason for you is that you see that fertilized egg, as a human being,  but that human being has no future, but that fertilized egg will distroy the carriers future....  and also, then that fully developed egg also has no future.....   what is your judgement!
(10-12-15 23:48:18) <+Theory> barabbas`, You posted that to the entire channel.
(10-12-15 23:48:27) <+Theory> barabbas`, If I post what you did, the bot will ban me.
(10-12-15 23:48:31) * barabbas` sets mode: -v Theory
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(10-12-15 23:48:58) * BibleBot sets mode: +v mark7
(10-12-15 23:49:01) <+[Shoegazer]> also if you think that later developing heart disease is a personality thing I'm not sure what you think we're talking about here
(10-12-15 23:49:27) <+[Shoegazer]> so this article doesn't really say much of anything about personality.
(10-12-15 23:50:02) * +CountryGent33 (~CountryGe@76.5.138.111) Quit (Quit: Leaving)
(10-12-15 23:50:31) <+kissa> I think, it is sad state of the morality, when something, that has no life, has more value, than someone, who is living!!!
(10-12-15 23:50:35) <+orangegreen> hi kissa =)
(10-12-15 23:50:50) <+kissa> hiya orangegreen  :)
(10-12-15 23:51:02) * +orangegreen *hugs* a_a =)
(10-12-15 23:51:11) <@Sara_Ks> Ok, Please cool down, everyone
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(10-12-15 23:51:43) * +kissa thinks ... she actually posted something awesome....  gotta read it again   *g*
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(10-12-15 23:52:28) <+kissa> should offer that
(10-12-15 23:52:30) * +a_a hugs orangegreen
(10-12-15 23:52:43) <+kissa> oooppps   that 'thought' to planned parenthood
(10-12-15 23:53:08) <@barabbas`> +bl *!* Mitino@BSN-61-20-81.dynamic.siol.net o just because barabbas`
(10-12-15 23:53:31) <@barabbas`> +bl *!*Mitino@BSN-61-20-81.dynamic.siol.net o just because barabbas`
(10-12-15 23:53:31) * QRT sets mode: +b *!*Mitino@BSN-61-20-81.dynamic.siol.net
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(10-14-15 22:28:10) <@barabbas`> +bl *!*Mitino@BSN-142-65-201.dynamic.siol.net 0 ban evasion barabbas`
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