Counseling/wine-spilling argument

Source: https://deppdive.net/exhibits/Plt394-CL20192911-051722.M4A

[NOTE: I haven’t bothered transcribing everything the TV said, but it’s a documentary about the death of Karina Ditto, whose husband David Ditto was convicted of murdering her. Also, I didn’t write any commentary on this one because it just seems like a pointless argument about nothing and I can’t particularly take either side.]

AH: Here’s mine.

JD: Just think about how you approached me with it. You said, I’ve gotta talk to you, ‘cause we have to see Dr Laurel. We’ve gotta see her separately. You were looking for me to go since you’d saw her last time, by yourself. You called Nathan, and he told you that this week doesn’t look good, because there’s so much s**t going on as it is.

AH: Yeah, well I connected Laurel and Nathan so that he could plan it for you.

JD: Mm-hm.

AH: Or he could schedule you. And then, when I got that text from him today saying it will have to be next week, I guess, I said to you can we talk about this because it’s twofold. One, I have to plan to go see her too, you know, so it does—

JD: Well, that’s never gonna conflict, because whenever you –

AH: Well, it does, because – here’s why it does. It’s a marriage – she’s a marriage counselor.

JD: Mm-hm.

AH: And if I’m going to see her by myself only, it’s completely pointless and redundant. That’s –

JD: What, why?

AH: Because she’s not – she’s not my counselor. She’s – the client is the marriage, right, so it does no good for me to be the only one that goes, if that’s what it’s going to turn out to be.

JD: Mmm. But—

AH: And because I have been the last one to go several times by myself – I think I’ve seen her now two or three times –

JD: Have you really? When have you seen her?

AH: Yeah probably, maybe two times. And then, oh yeah, I called her. So yeah, like three times if you count the phone, you know, like a proper phone thing. And if I’m the only one that continues to do that, then it is redundant. You know what I mean, it’s kind of pointless since the client is the marriage. It can’t just be me. That’s why I said it affects me.

JD: So you mean if you continue to do it and I don’t do it, that’s redundant, ’cause she’s a marriage counselor? Is that what you’re saying? The client is the marriage. You just said that if you keep doing it, it’s redundant.

AH: Yes, there’s no point in – there’s no point in only one person going to a marriage counselor.

JD: Exactly, so you are – you’re already saying right there, in that, you’ve written it off in your head that I won’t do it.

AH: No. No.

JD: So then why – why would you say just you doing it is redundant? That’s implying that only one person is going to see this lady.

AH: No, I’m explaining why it’s redundant for only one person to see this lady.

JD: But I never talked about one person only seeing this lady.

AH: I know.

JD: Then why are we talking about it? Why are we talking about that?

AH: I don’t know, you seem to be – we’re talking about it, I guess, because you seem upset that I asked if you were going to make this a priority. ’Cause I know your schedule is busy but if it—

JD: No, you didn’t ask me if I was going to make this a priority. You said, “is this a priority?”

AH: Oh okay, sorry, but –

JD: “Is this a priority?”

AH: I’m not quite sure how those are different, but I’m sorry you see that that one is different.

JD: Well they’re very different things.

AH: Okay. I’m sorry that I said is it –

JD: Don’t get wound up.

AH: I’m not wound up. I’m absolutely not wound up at all.

JD: Okay. I –

AH: Am I yelling at you, or calling you names, or yelling at you?

JD: No, I can hear you, I can hear your voice change.

AH: Yeah, I have expressions and feelings. But I am not upset or attacking you.

JD: I didn’t say you were. I just said don’t get wound up, that’s all.

AH: I’m not wound up. I’m not wound up.

JD: Okay, okay. Well listen. All I’m saying is: You asked if it was a priority to me. I said it was. And you said “okay, then we have to make, gotta do this, gotta do the appointments, gotta make it work, gotta whatever, gotta take the time, your whole day’s not taken up by these other things.” When in fact, there is a large amount of my day taken up by these various things that are going on within the next week or so. And –

AH: No doubt, no, and I know you’re busy.

JD: And so—

AH: That’s why I asked you if you’re gonna make it a priority in that sense that –

JD: You asked if I was gonna make it a priority. You asked if it was a priority to me.

AH: Okay, I guess what I’m saying is, in me saying if it is a priority, what I’m asking you or saying in that is, will you make this a priority in your day? By me saying “is it a priority?”, that’s what I’m asking. So, I – I –

JD: If it’s a priority, Amber, I don’t need to make it a priority. It is a priority, and I’m gonna try and work out a time when I can go see the woman.

AH: Okay.

JD: It’s difficult to pin down, I can’t give you a date as you’re expecting, and that’s what this is all about.

AH: No it’s not. You got upset when I asked you this question and I have been just trying to understand why, because I’m just trying to understand. Remember me started talking, I said I feel like you’re getting upset because I’m saying “Oh yeah you f**ked up.” I was trying to understand why you were upset by that question, that’s all.

JD: What I was saying with that whole thing was –

AH: You were the one who was upset, not me.

JD: I don’t feel it was – I don’t feel it’s pre – well, I guess it is pre-judgement, only in the sense that it exists within you already. It’s not something that just happens, you know, like missing an appointment or something and you go “oh well of course he f**king did.” That kinda deal, you know. It was expected, you know?

AH: Okay.

JD: So it’s expected, I guess.

AH: Okay.

JD: So let’s forget the pre-judgement or whatever. It’s just expected that, you know, if you just leave it to me, I won’t get it done. Therefore you feel you have to take the initiative.

AH: Did I say that?

JD: No, but that’s what it – that’s kind of what it is.

AH: I’m sorry you felt that way. I am. That sucks to feel.

JD: Well, just understand that if you want to know, really, if this is a priority for me, then why don’t you just sit back and let me do what I do and you see if I take care of it. If I don’t take care of it, then that’s your answer.

AH: I will. I will absolutely do that, because I don’t have any other choice than to do just that. But that still doesn’t mean I can’t ask my husband if you’re going to make something a priority that I have made myself, and that you have promised to make, and that – knowing you’re busy and that you juggle a lot of things and that your focus has to be on so many different things. I can ask you, I have every right to ask you as my husband, if you’re gonna make something a priority, without it becoming a 45-minute fight about semantics, inferences, judgements that –

JD: Semantics? If this is semantics, baby, then our entire existence is going to be a f**king – just a back and forth.

AH: I would love to get into that existential kind of, or fatalistic conversation with you, but I don’t feel like it’s helpful.

JD: I’m not existentialist about it, I’m not fatalistic about it, I’m being realistic and I’m being as honest as I can.

AH: Okay.

JD: I’m being as honest as I know how to be. You know, and that is to say that, it is a priority to me. As I said when you asked if it is a priority, I will make it happen. Which means, I suppose, I will make the priority a priority, you know. And—

AH: That’s all I asked. But I mean, I have been talking to you about it since in a way that has been trying to defuse how upset you got about that question.

JD: How upset? What do you mean, upset?

AH: You got really defensive and aggressive with me.

JD: No. When? When you asked me if it was a priority?

AH: No? Okay. Well, maybe I should have said that’s how it felt. And –

JD: I know how you feel.

AH: Okay. So I feel like that, and I also feel like I can’t be expected to be in, nor would you want me to be in, a relationship where that somehow is, you know, a major offence. Beautiful watch, by the way.

JD: Thank you.

AH: Like that’s somehow a major offense, ’cause I asked you if it’s a priority.

JD: It’s not – it’s not –

AH: I’m not a tyrant. It’s not like I can’t – I wanna feel like I don’t want to walk on eggshells, and I can have the freedom to – you know, we can have the freedom to, like, say normal things to one another. Like, “hey, I care about the thing that you promised to me, are you gonna do it?” Even though that might be even at best, or at worst I’m sorry, annoying to you, that’s gotta be okay without it becoming this. And I have been trying to defuse it since it started, by trying to understand what made you so upset. That’s one of the first things I said in this conversation, that I’m gonna try really hard to understand why you’re so – I mean, I said I understand why, I’m trying to understand why you’re upset. If it’s simply because I asked you if you’re, like, gonna do this thing, and you felt as though that was pre-judging you, then there’s gotta be a better way for you to tell me how you feel.

JD: Well, don’t you think it is?

AH: Pardon?

JD: Don’t you think it is pre-judging?

AH: No, I think pre-judging would be not to even bother asking. But that’s my honest answer. I think it says a lot that I thought I could ask you. I’m giving you –

JD: I’m not saying you can’t ask me.

AH: Yes you are.

JD: No, I’m not saying that at all.

AH: Your actions have told me that, though. It’s been a 45 minute talk that I think neither one of us can wait to get out of. You know, and it shouldn’t be like that, just, even if it had annoyed you for some reason, it shouldn’t become this.

JD: If Nathan tells you that I – that this week is gonna be difficult, and that upsets you –

AH: It didn’t upset me at all. It did not upset me. At all.

JD: Really?

AH: Not at all. I was –

JD: Then why were you saying that next week’s not good or --?

AH: I had a conversation with you in the same tone, if not lighter than I am now. How can you say it upset me? I gave you zero indication to say that it upset me. I said explicitly and implicitly, both, that I wasn’t upset, that I was attempting to have a conversation with you. Because I understood you were busy and handling a lot of things, and –

JD: And you wanted to know when I could see the lady?

AH: I didn’t say when. I was not expecting you to know your schedule at all, nor would I ever, by the way.

JD: That’s why I said, yes, I said to you, I gotta look at the schedule, I gotta look at –

AH: That’s what you said. But I certainly didn’t ask you for a time or any sort of indication of when you would I go. I asked you if it was a priority, it was a broader question, not a specific –

JD: Right, and I answered the question.

AH: Okay but you just said I was asking you when were gonna go, and I am clarifying that I did not. Because it’d be a foolish thing and that’s part of why I asked you if it was a priority, because I know that you’re dealing with a lot. I would never expect you to know your own schedule.

JD: Yeah, well, I don’t. [Makes weird unintelligible noises.]

AH: I’m sorry you felt judged by that question, but I wasn’t.

JD: No, don’t be.

AH: You’re very very sensitive to me –

JD: I’m a very sensitive f**king person. I don’t know what to say.

AH: I know, but you’ve got really thin skin about maybe me thinking you’re a f**kup. I didn’t even have to say you were or that I felt that, for you to feel that way.

JD: No, you don’t.

AH: And I hope one day – I hope one day you can give me a little bit more credit, you know. Or maybe when I have less of a problem with you, this is about me having a problem with you, not you. Even though I didn’t say you had one. I think you should –

JD: I think the only problem is there is a prejudgement. You just automatically – it’s automatic, it’s built in.

AH: Okay, well I’m sorry that you –

JD: You think I won’t remember and I’ll f**k it up.

AH: I didn’t say that you would f**k up. But you’re – the irony here that you miss is that you’re making that judgement on me. That’s what I think is amazing that you miss every time, is the irony. That you’re so sensitive to judgement yourself, for being told you f**ked up. When you, then in the same sentence as I pointed out earlier, will turn around and then make a judgement on someone else.

JD: Okay, well.

AH: Which is what you’re doing when you say it’s my problem.

JD: Well I guess our feelings are based on experience. Mine are based on experience, yours are based on experience. So, um, did you talk to Nathan?

AH: No. I just sent him an email contact with Laurel.

JD: So you didn’t talk to him after he said he can’t – the dates aren’t good or –?

AH: No. No, I didn’t.

JD: No? Okay, well let me take care of it. I’ll talk with Nathan, I’ll talk with Dr Laurel or whatever, figure it out, I’ll figure out when I can get there. I’ll get there for sure.

AH: Okay. Alright, that’s all I have.

JD: Soon I’ve gotta meet with Christi and probably doctors. But I need to talk to Christi about obviously what the f**k is gonna happen with…

AH: Uh, Nathan said your meeting was cancelled today too, your meeting last week.

JD: Oh yeah, there was uh, what was it about, Happy. It was about Happy.

[In the background, the TV documentary starts, about Karina Ditto being an immigrant who became dependent on her new husband.]

AH: [inaudible] Christi, and um, I’ll see you later tonight.

JD: Okay. Are you taking off?

AH: Yeah, I was gonna just hang out with you until, um —

[Possibly AH gets distracted by the documentary.]

AH: Uh, I was hanging out with you – I was hanging out with you so that you were gonna read this. I put, I mean I –

JD: Yeah I know.

AH: I can’t move some things around, I’m gonna see if I can’t just do it tomorrow, not now because I know you’re leaving.

JD: I’m not leaving at this second. I would put some makeup on that hickey. What’s – what’s wrong?

AH: Nothing. Um, if you want that –

JD: I’ll wait for you.

AH: It’s just a little gift.

JD: I’ll wait for you.

AH: Why? I mean, I don’t have any – I don’t have anything, like, huge. But you have a whole stack of them, and they kind of make me sad, down the stairs, and I think it’s really nice of you to kind of sit here for me, as a human, it feels like really un—

JD: Baby, we haven’t had a moment where either one of us has said, hey that’s when we do this.

AH: I was just telling you how I feel. I don’t feel judged, sorry if you do. I was just telling you how I think.

JD: I know, but if that’s how you feel, why don’t you say, “Hey, let’s sit down and open these things?”

AH: I tried, but you didn’t.

JD: You did, when?

AH: This morning, a couple days ago. It’s okay, it’s alright, we haven’t had a lot of time together. That’s why I brought that upstairs, I mean that’s why I – that’s why I brought that upstairs, ’cause I thought we would open it, you know.

JD: I thought we would too. It just got onto the road it wants to be on, I suppose, I don’t know. I’ll open it. I’ll open it with you. I’ll open it with you later.

AH: I want to – let me if I can do anything about – in order to help with Betty Sue. S**t, I’m sorry you’re dealing with that. And I’m here for you if you need it.

JD: Okay.

AH: I’ll try. I’m gonna see if I can still do my meeting, I’m probably here to but—

JD: What? Why do it now? It’s late.

AH: Because if you’re leaving, that was the only reason I stayed. If you’re leaving, I could get it done. Well I probably – I don’t know if I can. I’d have to email them. I don’t want you to walk away for that, though.

JD: Oh no, I’m okay so, thank you for breakfast.

[The TV documentary talks about Karina Ditto saying her husband was controlling, him suspecting her of cheating shortly before her death, her fatal injuries being inconsistent with his story that she fell down the stairs, and how the police came to suspect him. The TV then covers his defence, including the theory that the inconsistent injuries happened accidentally when she was in hospital, David Ditto’s own testimony, and a probabilistic argument. As the TV gets to David Ditto being convicted of murder, JD and AH resume their conversation at 0:42.]

AH: Shall I wake you up? Are you needing to go, or or are you – shall we—?

JD: No, I’m just zipping into these little 20-second naps.

AH: Do you want me to wake you up, if you’re asleep?

JD: Because you’re leaving?

AH: Yeah, I’m leaving in a minute. I wasn’t gonna wait, I’m just [inaudible].

JD: Okay.

AH: Are you gonna be – are you gonna be gone late, tonight?

JD: No.

[The TV continues for about a minute on what the jury and paramedics thought.]

AH: Do you need to wake up? Are you okay?

JD: I’m okay.

AH: Do you need meds?

JD: No, I’m fine like this. I’m okay.

[Another minute or so from the TV about Karina’s and David’s parents.]

AH: Are you sure you don’t need your meds?

JD: Mm-mm.

AH: Do you need them?

JD: Mmm.

JD: I’m okay.

AH: Do you want me to tuck you in?

JD: I’m okay. I’m not gonna fall asleep.

AH: You’re sure?

JD: I’m sure. I’m sure.

AH: I’ll see you later.

JD: Okay.

TV: If you were on the jury, what would you think of David Ditto’s emotional testimony?

AH: Bull. S**t.

JD: What?

AH: It was bulls**t, his testimony.

JD: Oh.

AH: It just seemed really really insincere.

JD: That dude?

AH: Yeah.

JD: Yeah, totally.

[Murder documentary finishes and the TV is turned down.]

AH: I wish you’d, you know [inaudible].

JD: Oh I know.

AH: You know I love you.

JD: I love you too.

AH: You want me to take another night or two?

JD: If you want to, you can.

AH: I wish that… I wish we’d see each other more. It’s senseless.

JD: It’s what?

AH: It’s just that it’s so senseless, you know?

JD: What’s senseless?

AH: [inaudible]

JD: But what is sensele— what? What’s happening? Why is it going there?

AH: I just asked you if you were gonna make something a priority, and you had a problem with it. And I tried, for a really long time, to defuse it.

JD: You can ask me, you can ask me later.

AH: But when I look at it, when I look at what you first said to me, the more I think about it, the more, the worse the taste is in my mouth, because I realize I, I worked really hard to try and keep it cool, and constructive. And, to what, for what, to what end? After, I mean, ’cause I asked you about something that directly affects me, majorly, majorly, if it was gonna be a priority to you. You had a problem with it. It seemed so kind of, seemed so tyrannical, you know?

JD: I can understand what it seems like to you. I’m sorry. Look, you know, I think you have control issues and I don’t want you to – You can’t control every situation in, not just your life but your husband’s life. Not everything moves exactly at your pace or exactly at your time, or this has to happen, or “I don’t like it.” You’ve got control issues, and they are upsetting at times, really really something that needs to be dealt with, you know? You wanna control thing, you wanna control me. Well, you f**king can’t do it, you cannot do it. I’m sorry.

AH: I thought I was asking you if you were gonna make something that directly affects our lives. And I thought I was doing so, because I know you’ve got a lot else, other things to think about throughout the day. But, you of all people, you said you don’t want to feel judged, you of all people have such a sensitivity to that. You don’t want to feel judged.

JD: No, it’s about pre-judgement.

AH: No one does, but you don’t want to be – What I’m trying to say is that you have such a sensitivity to being judged, that I think you should know how terrible it makes me feel when you judge me, and call me a control freak or say I have issues.

JD: I didn’t call you a control freak, I said you have control issues. You want to control things, you want to control everything. This is not new information for you.

AH: So this is something. I just wanna point out that you – I just wanna point out that you don’t – you have a problem with being called names or – or being judged. So you of all people should know how terrible it makes me feel, how you’re doing that to me right now.

JD: Talk to anyone, Amber, come on.

AH: I do. I speak to a lot of people. You’re the only one telling me that I have control issues right now, and you’re the person I’m speaking to now. That’s what I’m telling you how what you’re saying makes me feel. Other people aren’t helping you right now.

JD: I’m sorry, I’m sorry that it makes you feel—

AH: You don’t like being judged, and you’re asking me not to judge you, I mean with the thinnest sensitivity, thinnest skin, most sensitivity of anybody I’ve ever met in my whole life. And yet you sit here and hurl judgements towards me about my issues because I asked you if you were going to make this a priority.

JD: You have control issues, Amber.

AH: Again, you’re repeating the thing that I’m telling you is making me feel bad.

JD: You can know that. You are aware of that.

AH: Again, you’re repeating the thing that I’m telling you is making me feel bad. So you repeating it—

JD: It’s not news to you. You’re not gonna pretend like this has never come up in your life before.

AH: You are just reiterating the thing I’m telling you is – I’m not arguing with you on that. I’m telling you that what you’re saying is bad. It makes me feel bad, and you of all people should know –

JD: Okay, what you’re saying to me feels bad.

AH: What, by telling you that you’re hurting me? No doubt.

JD: No, earlier.

AH: That’s – all I asked you, all I asked you is if you’re gonna make it a priority, and that is giving you full license to sit here and hurl insults at me.

JD: You didn’t ask me if I going to make it a priority.

AH: I did.

JD: You asked me if it was a priority.

AH: Yes, that’s asking you if you’re going to make it one.

JD: You didn’t ask me if I was going to make a one.

AH: How are they different?

JD: If you have a priority, you have a priority. If you have a priority, you don’t have to make it a priority, ’cause it’s a priority already. You understand what I’m saying? That’s the department of redundancy department.

AH: Thank you so much for clarifying that.

JD: It’s what you asked, isn’t it?

AH: Thank you. Thank you. Now that really clears that up.

JD: Okay. I’m sorry to upset you by saying you have control issues, but you do. And yeah, it really f**ks with me at times. And I don’t want – you know, I most of the time go along with your thing, so that nobody’s hassled and there’s no weirdness. But sometimes I just can’t. I can’t do every single thing you want me to do at the exact time you want me to do it, you know, and let you know when it’s done. I just can’t, because it’s just exhausting, Amber.

AH: Oh, I’m sorry, I’m really sorry I put you through that. I didn’t realize that’s I was doing today by asking you if it was a priority.

JD: No, not just today. It’s what you do sometimes.

AH: Okay, well I’m sorry that you go through that, it must feel really terrible. I’m gonna leave now, because it feels really – I mean, it feels really terrible. It feels really terrible to talk to you recently, alone, and I don’t think I deserved it today. I don’t think I did anything wrong, but I’m still sorry, and I’m gonna leave now and I think it would be best if I just had some space and I’ll let you have your own space too. But I feel really terrible talking to you right now. If you have anger issues about me, and they don’t improve over the years coming up, I’m sorry. But I don’t think I deserve this. And you insulting me when I’m telling you repeatedly it hurts me, what you’re saying, and then that you feel the impulse to just repeat it over and over – that’s really sad. It shows me who you are. And you don’t like being judged, and you are very sensitive to it, so you of all people should know how terrible you made me feel today.

JD: I’m sorry.

AH: Me too.

[TV, now another crime documentary, continues in the background until AH returns at 1:02.]

AH: You don’t have any propranolol, do you?

JD: No, I don’t use it.

AH: You don’t ever have any when I need it?

JD: No, not really. Gabapentin is neurontin, you know? Or is that the same as –?

AH: I’m sorry.

JD: I always get gabapentin mixed up thinking that that’s propranolol. But I don’t know.

AH: I have one left, so if there’s somewhere that you think you might have it—

JD: You only have one?

AH: Yeah, I only have one.

JD: Let’s call in a prescription.

AH: I’m gonna call Erin now.

JD: Yeah she can just bring some to you or whatever, but I can definitely call in a prescription.

AH: Yeah, I’m going to. Can I have this? Can I have this neurontin?

JD: Yes, absolutely.

AH: Let me know when it’s cool to come home. I mean, when it’s cool for me to come home.

JD: When I’m going, you mean?

AH: Yeah.

JD: Oh, I’ll be leaving in fifteen, twenty minutes. You don’t have to leave on my account, ’cause I can get out of here earlier.

AH: No, that’s okay, I’ll get some air, I’m gonna hang out with Io, and you know, get some air.

JD: Okay. Well, I’ll be going in half an hour, no later.

AH: Okay I’m sorry.

JD: Me too.

AH: I’m sorry. I’m sorry [inaudible].

JD: For what?

AH: That I asked you to come home and it didn’t work. I feel really sad that this is happening.

JD: I do too. I do too. I don’t – I didn’t want it to turn into anything, when I was trying to say that, you know, just let me deal with it and you’ll see that I – if it’s a priority to me, you know. I really didn’t mean –

AH: I didn’t get upset.

JD: Well even that, I was almost trying to – it was almost like it was –

AH: I didn’t get upset. What upset me was the things you were saying afterward and how you said them, and the fact that it was such an issue for you.

JD: No, but you did get upset.

AH: When I asked you that question, which seemed like such a fair question for someone to be able to ask. And I had to ask myself, am I living in a relationship where that question means what it did? It should be okay to ask that question of your spouse, without judgement, which is judgement I got.

JD: I was saying more –

AH: I got judgement and hatred for it. And I don’t want to live in that relationship where I can’t even ask a normal question. That’s off-limits.

JD: Well we do not have a normal relationship, so that’s the problem.

AH: Yes. Maybe. Maybe.

JD: No what I’m saying is, it’s not a normal relationship. You are not a normal person. I am not a normal person. We do not – we do not – ordinarily it would be a totally sort of, like, nothing of a question or – but, because of what’s underneath it, the subtext of it, you know, it becomes – it becomes a problem. And just like I – just like me saying to you, you know, look man –

AH: Calling someone, saying over and over, giving, judging someone, throwing and hurling those judgements and criticisms at them?

JD: What if a doctor tells you that? Are they judging you? I’m not judging you.

AH: No offence, but you’re not a doctor.

JD: No, I’m your f**king partner, I’m your husband. I’m not saying that to hurt you, I’m saying that to help you.

AH: But did it look like it was helping? Did it help? And if anybody – anybody – I don’t care if it’s a schoolteacher with a kid – if anyone says you’re hurting me with what you’re doing, your job is to stop doing that, as a person, as a human being. I don’t care who you are.

JD: Well you had better take that one into your f**king life. That one.

AH: This isn’t my issue.

JD: Because when I ask you to stop, you don’t.

AH: You’re right. This is clearly – so then you had permission to do what you did, therefore you’re not accountable.

JD: I don’t have permission to do anything like that.

AH: ’Cause I’ve done something before, therefore you’re free of blame. See you can deflect responsibility?

JD: No, that’s the pot calling the kettle black.

AH: You were told – see what you’re doing? – you were told repeatedly “You’re hurting me, that hurts, please.” It’s not your place to help me in that way. And even if it were, if I did that to you –

JD: It’s not my place to help you in that way? It’s not my place as your husband? So then it’s not your place –

AH: Was it helping? Was it helpful? Did it help? Did it look like it was helping things? Did it help? Were you helping me? Did it?

JD: Do you think a lie would work better?

AH: Did it help me?

JD: You prefer a lie?

AH: Did it help me?

JD: I don’t know.

AH: Did it look like it was helping the situation?

JD: You don’t have to ask me redundant questions, thank you. I know the answer to that. And so do you, so let’s not waste either one’s air.

AH: I don’t feel – I don’t feel like being in that and being called names anymore.

JD: Okay, good.

AH: So if I cannot talk to you without being called names or take criticisms or “help” from you in that way by throwing judgements of me, hurling judgments at me.

JD: What names were you called?

AH: If I have to get that every time I talk to you, then I don’t want to talk to you. You’re losing me, Johnny. If it’s not that already, you’re losing me. You’re killing me. And I have to at this point, with how much you’ve hurt me, and I’m telling you you’re hurting me, and you feel it necessary for you, because you’re so right and clear in your judgements and you’re so helpful in your criticisms that you need to repeat it over and over again, knowing it’s hurting someone—

JD: I didn’t use it as a weapon.

AH: Replay that. I hope you can ask somebody. I hope you have all of that on tape, because you should really—

JD: I do.

AH: Please, play it for someone and you ask them, if that was the right thing to do.

JD: I will.

AH: But you know, it doesn’t matter anymore because – if you don’t know that, if you don’t know right from wrong, if you don’t know that that was not okay, or that is just simply is a problem, if that’s what you feel is necessary to do – that’s why it’s probably gone.

JD: Well, if it’s happening and it continues to happen, then you think it’s probably gone, so –

AH: I’m just saying, you’re losing me.

JD: You’re losing me.

AH: And if you continue to behave this way –

JD: You lost me. I came back.

AH: Then why are you here? Why did you come back?

JD: Because I love you.

AH: That’s not having lost someone.

JD: And you can’t just arbitrarily change the rules to suit your mood, by the way.

AH: Then I lost you, if you wanna word it that way, fine. Let’s call it a loss.

JD: Are you kidding?

AH: I lost you, that’s how you worded it. If that’s how you want to call it, then fine, okay. I don’t care if you win. I don’t care.

JD: Well, nobody wins.

AH: I don’t care who lost who. I don’t. You can be right, you can be the one that, like, I lost, okay, that’s fine. It’s fine, alright?

JD: Okay.

AH: I would love if you would just give me the space for a few days and –

JD: We’ve gotta.

AH: …figure out my – it will take a while, you know Rock and Josh are looking for a place, and I’ll like go in with them on something and you know, but that might take a minute and [inaudible]. Let’s separate and [inaudible].

JD: Let’s do what? “Separate and…?” I can’t hear you, please. “Separate and…?”

AH: I don’t know. I don’t know. Stop jumping at me, please.

JD: I’m just asking the question, what was the other word? I want to know what I’m agreeing to.

AH: Oh no, I don’t know, I just— it’s not important.

JD: It’s not important?

AH: I don’t know what I said. I think I was scrambling for words, you know.

JD: Okay.

AH: I’m sorry. I’m sorry.

JD: Me too. I’ll give you space, I’ll –

AH: We don’t have to do anything officially, but we can. I don’t really care. Whatever you need, whatever you need. And I’m sorry if this comes at this time with your mom. I really truly don’t know if it’s about that and you need something else from me, if that’s really why you’ve been so terrible, why you’ve been so – why you’ve been so rough with me, critical with me, critical of me, or judgemental of me. I don’t know if it’s about your mom taking out. I don’t know. If it is that, I wish you would tell me in some way, so I knew to just pace, you know. But if it really isn’t about your mom at all –

JD: I’m sorry that you’re miserable, and I’m sorry that I make you miserable. I really am.

AH: Me too.

JD: I really am. And—

AH: I never expected this from you. I feel really shocked that it’s become this, where you feel so terrible, where you feel so mean to me, and critical, and judgemental, and hateful of me. I’ve made you hate me, clearly, and I don’t know why you torture both of us by perpetuating it. If you have such hatred for me, I don’t know if I’m your scapegoat, if it’s your mom, I really don’t know. I wanna be here for you, but you’re torturing me. And I should be okay to ask you if you’re coming to the thing, or if you’re – it’s really not a big offence, it’s not, and it doesn’t deserve this. And I know better than that. And I know better than that. I know, I know, that what I was sold in you was not that man. It’s abusive, it’s mean, to sit here and hurl insults or judgements at me, when I’m repeatedly telling you it’s hurting me and it doesn’t matter to you, it’s out of context. You’re not my therapist, you’re not my doctor, you’re not even normal. You’re a legit crazy person, self-admitted, and you’re gonna call me names or say I have issues. Why?

JD: ’Cause I’d like them to go away so they don’t hurt us.

AH: What good is it going to do to call someone – call a judgement?

JD: I didn’t call you a name.

AH: Who are you to judge me? Who are you to judge me, especially when you hate judgement so much yourself?

JD: It’s not a judgement, by the way.

AH: It is a judgement.

JD: No, it’s not a judgement. It’s an observation of something that I’ve lived with for four years.

AH: Okay.

JD: It’s an observation, man.

AH: You’re right. You have every right to bring it up at the time the way you did. You were great, you did everything right. It’s me that has a problem.

JD: I’d like you to not have that control issue so heavily and used against me. I’d really appreciate it.

AH: It’s me that has a problem, ’cause what you did is totally totally fine, for you. I’m the one who has a problem with what just happened. I’m the one that’s hurt. I’m the one that has a problem. It is my fault for my problem. You’re right, okay? Alright, you win. You’re right. You’re right. I’m the one who feels uncomfortable when I tell someone over and over again, that what they’re doing is not helpful, not constructive, not appropriate, not necessarily even fair, nor is it helping, and it is in fact hurting me. And I tell you repeatedly, and you feel like you’re in a place to do that, and judge me and ignore every time I tell you it hurts me.

JD: I’m not judging you.

AH: Then you think I’m the one who has a problem? Okay, yeah, you’re right. It is my problem, ’cause I don’t like that, the judgement.

JD: Nobody does, I guess. If you think that that’s judgement.

AH: You would have thought it was judgement, so don’t bring me into it.

JD: Well you can freely, you know, sort of prescribe your names on me every time you want. And all my weaknesses and all my shortcomings and –

AH: I didn’t. That’s what’s ironic, because [inaudible].

JD: Okay. Okay. We didn’t just meet today, Amber. Come on.

AH: I guess I’m just talking about today, excuse me.

JD: Okay, let’s just – let’s cut this short so we don’t just continue in hurting and hurt each other, please.

AH: I’m not actually participating in that way. But it would feel terrible to you, if I sat here and tried to help you by telling you what I suffer from.

JD: Please, you’ve – we’ve been through that a whole lot. I’ve listened to a lot of your –

AH: Not today.

JD: Not this morning, and not this afternoon, no. No. But I’ve certainly accumulated a lot.

AH: So now you’re justified in doing what you did?

JD: Well.

AH: We’re only talking about today. ’Cause I can only mean what I say, when I say I’m gonna try and change X, Y, and Z thing, and I’m gonna work on blah blah blah, and I can only do those things. And since I have been doing those things—

JD What things have you been doing?

AH: Working on these things, not doing certain things, and trying to change certain things. Hence the last several times we’ve –

JD: Hence screaming when I spilt wine accidentally on you, falling asleep. And screaming in front of my kids and freaking Jack out. And that’s trying?

AH: I would appreciate – yeah you’re right, you’re right Johnny.

JD: That f**ked him up, you know.

AH: I’m sorry I f**ked your son up.

JD: No, it weirded him out. He’d never—

AH: I’m so sorry I f**ked your kids up.

JD: You didn’t f**k my kids up.

AH: I’m so sorry.

JD: But it was pretty f**king weird for him, you know.

AH: ’Cause I jumped up and screamed ’cause I had wine on my face? You’re right, I really surprised him. Send me the bill for the counselling. I’m sure that’s terrifying.

JD: I don’t need your clever comebacks.

AH: You’re gonna use that against me?

JD: No. You think you’re controlling yourself?

AH: Your character is –

JD: You think you’re controlling yourself?

AH: Your character has become so clear, especially when you use them. It’s embarrassing for you. I’m gonna walk away now, because you’re actually making it – making me seem even worse. And believe you me, I’m not gonna be calling you at 3 o’clock in the morning after I’ve done an Ambien, and think “oh no, I’ll just f**king forgive you and move on.” Trust me, it is gross that you’re using your kids. I have done nothing but be there for them, in a good way, and if you take that for granted, fine. Fine. You’re right. You need a woman who will not jump up and scream if she’s been spilled on three times in a row. And I hope – and I hope you’re happy with whoever that is, ’cause that would be a special kind of f**king person, wouldn’t it? Sorry, I didn’t mean it that way, really. It’s not worth it for me. You’re not worth it. You know, I don’t think we’re in love anymore.

JD: Okay.

AH: Please let me know when you’re out.

[AH walks away. No talking until 1:24.]

AH: Just tell me, is it about your mom? Is there something I’m missing that I should know?

JD: No. I don’t know what it’s about. It’s – I don’t know.

AH: It’s not that? It’s not something I’m missing, like, I should be more understanding as a human being and as a wife. Are you going through some s**t? Are you going through something right now? Is that it? Or is that not at all it? ’Cause I don’t know if I’m being s**tty, or not being and just taking it? Johnny?

JD: I – of course I’m going through a lot with my mom. And I – of course I’m feeling a lot of things regarding my mom’s health and the family situation and all that. And of course feeling all this stuff and I’m going through stuff, and I don't voice it a lot. But of course I am. But I – um –

AH: Okay. Okay. I’ll try to be more understanding, okay?

JD: Okay, thank you. Thank you. I’m sorry I don’t –

AH: It’s just kind of when you’re in that way, it’s hard to tell.

JD: I’m not using that as my excuse for what we spoke about earlier. That’s not what I’m saying. What I’m saying, that is all flowing through my veins every day.

AH: Okay.

JD: At all – at every moment.

AH: Okay.

JD: So if it affects the way that I’m dealing with you and it’s uncomfortable, you know, I’m sorry.

AH: I know that that’s a factor and all because I’m trying, and I will try to be more understanding. But there is some s**t that’s always gonna be, you know unacceptable. But I’m going to try. You can do whatever you want. But I would feel really guilty if I’m not there for you when you need, and you just don’t know how to say that is a part of this. I don’t – I didn’t know if it – I don’t know. If I were you I’d probably be freaking out too, but if, you know, I did weird things that made you feel less than loved all the time, every time we spoke, and I was impatient and tyrannical and judgemental of you, I would, every single time, you would go crazy at some point too.

JD: Mm-hm. Well, maybe I have gone crazy a little bit.

AH: No, I’m saying that’s why maybe – look, I’m trying to do the right thing—

JD: Thank you.

AH: And I don’t know how, exactly. Because I feel – I feel so unfair and hurt by it. But I’m trying. Also I know, I know, that if my mom was laid up in hospital, I’d be – I’d be a different person too. And I’m sorry that I didn’t – and I’m sorry I forget or allow myself to not remember it.

JD: Thank you. I’m sorry for saying things that hurt you. I’m sorry for just having such a negative – adding negative space around you, you know. I’m sorry that that’s what I do to you.

AH: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Thank you for acting like you care about me.

JD: I do care about you. I care about you very much, and you know that, and I –

AH: Well, I’m here for you, if you want. I’m not gonna kick you out of your own home, okay? It’s just know that it’s here, please tell me. But of course out of respect, I’ll tell you if I’m not gonna come home, and you tell me.

JD: Yeah.

AH: I’m not kicking you out or asking you not to come here, okay?

JD: Okay.

AH: But I am your wife, still, and I’m here for you and me, while your mom is going through these things, and you’re going through these things, I will be – I will try very hard to keep that in mind when I – when I am just reacting to what I would otherwise feel is an active attempt to – to make me suffer. And what I – if I didn’t know better, I would think that that’s what you were intending to do, recently. And out of self-preservation or something, I’ve gotta, like, keep myself alive by protecting myself a little. And if that means assuming that I’m only having one foot out of this and one foot in, it hurts both of us. But your mom’s dying, so I don’t know – I don’t know if you’re intending to ruin the marriage or not, you know? Maybe you want out, because you don’t like me anymore, which is what it sounds like. And if your mom weren’t dying, I would walk away knowing that I was just not – you didn’t like me enough anymore. But I can’t leave you. You know, I wouldn’t want to be left, no matter what my behaviour, if my mom was in hospital or my dad.

JD: Don’t stay with me for that, please.

AH: I love you, that’s why I’m with you. I’m saying, by not interpreting the signs that tell me, glaringly, that you don’t want to be with me anymore. Dislike, resentment, bitterness that you’ve accrued over the years, I don’t know. Everything tells me that those are the things you feel for me. And I have every conversation we’ve had recently, had to justify feeling that you are trying to make me walk or run. But if you’re not, then please, do better, try a little bit, do a better job of sticking up for this marriage, or doing the right thing by trying. ’Cause that’s pushing me away real fast, real hard.

[No talking for nearly a minute.]

JD: Thank you. Thank you for saying all that, all, you know. Thank you for your kindness. And I’m sorry that I f**k you up, I’m sorry. We f**k each other up. Do you want something to drink? Water?

AH: What?

JD: Mineral water.

AH: Yeah, just a little. Just a little distilled.

JD: Just sit down here. Get on the chair, on the couch. There’s just tea, there’s no mineral water.

[The sound of the fridge and a bottle or can opening.]

AH: Let me just get a [inaudible]. I think I might have a propranolol or—

JD: I think you got one? I thought you said you had one?

AH: I just took my last one. 30 minutes ago and s**t.

[No talking for the remaining 11 minutes.]



Full list of transcripts: https://pastebin.com/3zdSHmet