[15:41] <Ignatius> heh
[15:41] <Ignatius> Take your pick.
[15:41] <Ignatius> Again. :)
[15:41] <Ignatius> We've been through this a few times.
[15:41] <agrammatos> i'm sorry, did you answer me before?  i never saw a response.  perhaps i had left before you replied?  either that or i'm blind or dumb (or both)???
[15:42] <Ignatius> You asked me before some months ago as well.
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[15:42] <agrammatos> Ignatius, i've only been in #apo for a week or so now, and in #pros for 'bout 3wks before that.  i did, however, ask you this same question twice before over the last week or so.
[15:43] <Ignatius> Then someone else asked the same question.
[15:43] <Ignatius> :)
[15:43] <agrammatos> i'm sorry if i missed your prev. replies to me.  were they the same as this reply?
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[15:44] <Ignatius> Essentially, yes.
[15:45] <agrammatos> hmmm...so, there is no difference between the two (other than some centuries in history)?
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[15:46] <Ignatius> They were obviously two different men who lived different lives.
[15:46] <Ignatius> Both were Catholic.
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[15:46] <Ignatius> Theologically I would say they had more in common than not.
[15:47] <agrammatos> yes, two different men.  Ignatius was Catholic?  In what sense Catholic may i ask?
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[15:48] <Ignatius> agrammatos, The sense that Ignatius of Antioch used the term was the same as Loyola.
[15:48] <Ignatius> Referring for example, to the Church founded by Christ, that held to Apostolic Succession, The Real Presence in the Eucharist and so forth.
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[15:51] <agrammatos> so do you agree with Ignatius writing, if i'm not mistaken, that there was a single overseer over a group of elders in each city?
[15:54] <Ignatius> agrammatos, I'd have to see exactly what you're referring to. I do agree with him on his representation of the hierarchy, yes.
[15:56] <agrammatos> i understand.  a reference from me would have been helpful.  not sure that i can find it.  i'll try.
[15:59] <Ignatius> "See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the
[15:59] <Ignatius>  people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraens, 8 (c. A.D. 110).
[16:00] <Ignatius> There is also his Epistles to the Romans in which he discusses the See of Peter.
[16:00] <Ignatius> brb
[16:01] <agrammatos> in your mind does Ignatius supercede the New Testament teachings?  the reference i was thinking of was in ANF-Ignatius-Magnesians-chapter 6.
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[16:09] <Tur8inFan> supposedly there’s an interesting discussion going on here
[16:09] <Tur8inFan> but I can’t scroll up :) because I was not here
[16:09] <agrammatos> understood, Tur.
[16:09] <agrammatos> it only just started and he's taking a short break.
[16:10] <agrammatos> Tur, should i attempt to copy and paste previous exchanges?
[16:10] <Tur8inFan> fine with me
[16:10] <Tur8inFan> I’m not an op here
[16:11] <Tur8inFan> (well, not right now)
[16:11] <Tur8inFan> just another humble participant
[16:11] <agrammatos> ok, i'm in mIRC and i'll give it a try.
[16:11] <Tur8inFan> be careful not to get flood kicked
[16:11] <Tur8inFan> by posting too much
[16:11] <Ignatius> agrammatoagr, there was no NT when he wrote.
[16:12] <agrammatos> right click doesn't seem to work.  also, having trouble highlighting text to copy.  do you know how in mIRC/
[16:12] <agrammatos> ?
[16:12] <Ignatius> agrammatos, I'm happy to continue this shortly. I have to run an errand.
[16:12] <agrammatos> right, Ignatius.  let me be clearer...
[16:12] <agrammatos> do you feel that Ignatius of Antioch could teach something...
[16:12] <agrammatos> contradictory to what the NT Scriptures teach?
[16:12] <Ignatius> agrammatos, no.
[16:12] <Tur8inFan> Well, there was new Testament when Ignatius of Antioch wrote
[16:13] <Ignatius> I don't believe he does either.
[16:13] <Tur8inFan> We can tell that a few ways.
[16:13] <Ignatius> Tur8inFan, no.
[16:13] <agrammatos> please, compare Ac20.17 with Ac20.28  - aren't there a plurality of overseers/bishops in...
[16:13] <agrammatos> Ephesus who are equated with the presbyters/elders?
[16:13] <Ignatius> Tur8inFan, just because some of the books that amount to the NT existed doesn't mean the "NT" existed
[16:14] <Ignatius> We know the first extant list of NT books wasn't until much later.
[16:14] <Tur8inFan> Oh - I see - so against the existence of the books you posit what?
[16:14] <Ignatius> Alas, I must truly run this errand. I will return.
[16:14] <Tur8inFan> your wishful thinking that they were not recognized as Scripture?
[16:14] <Tur8inFan> LOL
[16:14] <agrammatos> Ignatius, does this not seem to make Ignatius' writings contradictory?
[16:15] <agrammatos> Tur, i'm lost on the copy and paste - i'll have to read the "Help" and see if it, well...helps.
[16:15] <Tur8inFan> no problem
[16:15] <Tur8inFan> you just select with your mouse and it copies to the clipboard for you
[16:15] <Tur8inFan> i.e. whatever you highlight get’s copied when you release
[16:15] <agrammatos> <agrammatos> so do you agree with Ignatius writing, if i'm not mistaken, that there was a single overseer over a group of elders in each city?
[16:16] <agrammatos> <Ignatius> agrammatos, I'd have to see exactly what you're referring to. I do agree with him on his representation of the hierarchy, yes.
[16:16] <agrammatos> <agrammatos> i understand.  a reference from me would have been helpful.  not sure that i can find it.  i'll try.
[16:16] <Tur8inFan> <Ignatius> We know the first extant list of NT books wasn't until much later.  << The ultimate argument from silence. :)
[16:16] <agrammatos> <Ignatius> "See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever
[16:16] <agrammatos> the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the
[16:16] <agrammatos> <Ignatius>  people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid." Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyraens, 8 (c. A.D. 110).
[16:16] <agrammatos> <Ignatius> There is also his Epistles to the Romans in which he discusses the See of Peter.
[16:16] <agrammatos> <Ignatius> There is also his Epistles to the Romans in which he discusses the See of Peter.
[16:17] <agrammatos> ok. that's pretty much it, Tur.
[16:17] <agrammatos> i see Ignatius as contradicting the teachings of the NT on this subject.
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[16:22] <Tur8inFan> sadly I too have to step away
[16:22] <Tur8inFan> bbl
[16:24] <agrammatos> ok.  later, Tur.  many thanks.
[16:28] <agrammatos> Ignatius, i know that you're away on an errand.  if i'm not here when you get back and read this, i'll be happy to chat with you again at a future point in time.
[16:29] <Ignatius> Tur8inFan, do you have an earlier date for the NT canon than say, Marcion?
[16:29] <Ignatius> I have returned. :D
[16:29] <Ignatius> Ordering dinner.
[16:29] <agrammatos> howdy, Ignatius.  Tur, has taken a respite.
[16:30] <agrammatos> bon appetite - when it arrives.
[16:31] <agrammatos> Ignatius, in your mind, how does Ac20.17 cp. Ac20.28 impact Ig. of Ant. quotes that you mentioned?
[16:31] <Ignatius> One moment agrammatos
[16:31] <agrammatos> certainly, Sir.
[16:35] <Ignatius> Act 20:17  He called the ancients of the Church.  We might translate the bishops, as the very same persons in the 28th verse are called bishops. (Witham)
[16:36] <Ignatius> Act 20:28  Take heed to yourselves, and to all the flock.  The ministers of the gospel must in the first place take care of the salvation of their own souls: and in the next place of the salvation of their flock, of the souls committed to their care, and to the Church; especially such ministers of God as are bishops,[2] placed, by divine institution, to govern the Church, or the churches under them.  The word bishop, by its derivatio
[16:36] <Ignatius> n, signifies overseers, or superintendants; but the signification is to be taken and expressed by the custom and ecclesiastical use of words. (Witham)
[16:37] <agrammatos> fine.  an earlier post of mine was in error - i mixed up vv17 and 28.   v17 = presbuterous (plural), ekklesias = singular cp. to v28 where the plural elders (in v17) are...
[16:38] <agrammatos> equated with the episkopous (plural).
[16:38] <Ignatius> I'm not sure I understand the point agrammatos.
[16:38] <agrammatos> does this not indicate that bishops/overseers are the same office as elders/presbuters?
[16:38] <agrammatos> IoA seems to separate the two in your quotes of IofA and mine from Mag.6
[16:40] <agrammatos> to be clearer, perhaps(???)...Acts does not have a singular overseer over a plurality of elders, but instead...
[16:41] <agrammatos> equates the two offices, in my opinion - if i read the plain words of Scripture correctly.
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[16:45] <agrammatos> i should not have said equates the two "offices"; i should have used the word "terms".  sorry for the confusion.
[16:45] <Ignatius> Sure...
[16:47] <Ignatius> episcopoi, presbuteroi and diakonoi are often used interchangeably in the Apostolic age, but also as a technical term.
[16:48] <agrammatos> i would see diakonos as something entirely different as Paul teaches in 1Tim3.
[16:48] <Ignatius> e.g. Paul referred to himself as "diakonos" even though technically he held a higher office.
[16:49] <agrammatos> yes.  words have a semantic range of meaning depending upon the sentence and context in which they appear.  in 1Tim3 diakonos is clearly something different that episkopos, wouldn't you say?
[16:49] <agrammatos> oops, "that" ==> "than"
[16:50] <Ignatius> 1tim 3:1?
[16:50] <agrammatos> and v2ff.
[16:52] <Ignatius> 1Tim 3:1-2 use episcopoi.
[16:52] <agrammatos> agreed.
[16:52] <Ignatius> Where do you see diakonos?
[16:52] <agrammatos> v8ff
[16:53] <Ignatius> Ah yes.
[16:53] <Ignatius> 1Ti 3:8  Deacons, &c.  By the Greek, grave, sober, &c.  But why does he pass from bishops to deacons, not naming priests?  St. John Chrysostom answers, that priests were comprehended under the name of bishops, their functions being much the same, except as to the ordination of the ministers of God. (Witham) --- After speaking of bishops he passes on to deacons, because priests are included in the former title; and every thing that he
[16:53] <Ignatius>  has said of the first, is applicable to them. (Estius)
[16:54] <agrammatos> at this point, only dogmatic assertions with no exegesis of the text or study of the Biblical usage of terms fr/those comments.
[16:55] <agrammatos> i'm really still wondering about your thoughts on Ac20.17 versus Ac20.28.
[16:55] <agrammatos> also,...
[16:56] <agrammatos> (Estius) seems to oversimplify.  not all qualifications listed for the episkopoi are repeated for the diakonoi.
[16:56] <agrammatos> viz., "apt to teach".
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[16:58] <AOMin> folks.....this channel is not meant for general chit chat
[16:59] <AOMin> it is an overflow channel for #Prosapologian
[16:59] <AOMin> for convo's that get too heated
[16:59] <AOMin> they are to be moved over here
[16:59] <agrammatos> AOMin, may i please ask what prompts your comments?
[17:00] <AOMin> I am CM
[17:00] <AOMin> ie: I run this channel
[17:00] <agrammatos> CM???   sorry, i wasn't clearer, RP.  i'm not sure to whom your comments may have been intended.
[17:00] <Raz_Laptop> Okay, come to #choosinghats if you'd like to have an apologetic conversion :)
[17:00] <Raz_Laptop> *conversation
[17:01] <agrammatos> #apo is not for RCC versus NT Scripture conversations?  i'm so sorry.  i've messed up again.
[17:01] <Ignatius> heh
[17:01] <agrammatos> i gues i'm not clear on what constitutes an apologetic conversation.
[17:01] <Raz_Laptop> #choosinghats is for apologetics, and only for apologetics.  Feel free to have this discussion here.
[17:01] <Ignatius> Someone call the thought police.
[17:01] <Raz_Laptop> *there
[17:02] <AOMin> ok, I have politely pointed out the purpose of this channel
[17:02] <Ignatius> Notify Germany. People are openly reasoning!
[17:02] <Ignatius> :D
[17:02] <AOMin> if I have to I will start kickbanning
[17:02] <Ignatius> I tremble.
[17:02] <agrammatos> my apologies, Mr. Pierce.   I wasn't questioning your authority.
[17:02] * AOMin sets ban on *!*@99-2-55-209.lightspeed.wlfrct.sbcglobal.net
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[17:02] * Raz_Laptop sets ban on *!*@adsl-0-173-232.jan.bellsouth.net
[17:02] * You have been kicked from #Apologetics by AOMin (AOMin)