<Overfiendvip> !
<Taco> hello
<Overfiendvip> Hello
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<AranJaeger> hi =)
<AranJaeger> well... hard to ask questions under certain restrictions...idk
<AranJaeger> hmm...
<Taco> it doesn't matter if you say it, I've already told several people
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<AranJaeger> well... "what"
<AranJaeger> all of "it"
<AranJaeger> to the tasers?
<Taco> yes all of it :p
<Taco> to the tasers
<AranJaeger> sniq told me...
<AranJaeger> i should have to keep secret
<AranJaeger> but in here?
<Taco> doesn't need to be a secret
<AranJaeger> you know there is lots of people
<Taco> anywhere
<AranJaeger> hmm okay
<AranJaeger> i dont have anything against it
<AranJaeger> makes it easier
<Overfiendvip> ~90% are idle/indifferent
<AranJaeger> so, doea tewtal know about the ntsc ggg?
<Taco> the people I wanted to keep it secret from and surprise with it are the first people I told anyway, lol
<Taco> other than sniq/kriole
<AranJaeger> lol
<Sniq> yes total knowz
<AranJaeger> and sniq almost made shortcharge at ridley platfrom real...
<AranJaeger> for tas pal
<Taco> yeah I saw
<AranJaeger> but is that brute force bot somewhere available?
<AranJaeger> also...
<AranJaeger> under the assumption
<AranJaeger> that the/some other tasers are working on other cats aswell
<AranJaeger> it would be better to tell them now
<AranJaeger> provided it could influence their tases too
<AranJaeger> bec if they are done with it
<AranJaeger> and afterwards being told that
<AranJaeger> long time ago a good break was found
<Taco> as far as I know none are in development apart from nymx's, and you can certainly tell him
<AranJaeger> they might not have motivation/time to improve it or idk
<Taco> cpadolf and hero already know and I don't think anyone else is really around anymore
<AranJaeger> i see
<Overfiendvip> You mentioned kriole though; I thought you had no idea what he's up to nowadays?
<AranJaeger> but regarding the viewers?
<AranJaeger> i think people in here might be the majority
<AranJaeger> of people that will watch it
<AranJaeger> isnt it for the "impact" and surprise ?
<Taco> well, kriole and I spoke for the first time in several years a couple weeks ago, so I did have no idea what he's been doing :p
<AranJaeger> i mean... not that i would think something like that is necessary at all
<Taco> we pretty quickly agreed to team up again though
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<AranJaeger> hmm but kriole isnt around like you anywhere
<AranJaeger> he can be pméd like cp and Hot i guess
<AranJaeger> HotD*
<Taco> if you need to ask him anything just let me know
<Taco> I could probably convince him to get on irc too
<AranJaeger> nah i just was curious
<AranJaeger> so, what about spazer ggg ntsc?
<AranJaeger> is it feasible to freeze the thing at right place
<AranJaeger> or rather high enough?
<AranJaeger> also.. for me it would be relevant for general analysis if inbounds colosseum suitless ice-less spike-spark could be gotten there
<Taco> I was able to get the bug frozen in the right spot with spazer+ice, but it seems hijump might actually be the issue here, although I haven't confirmed it yet
<AranJaeger> for item-tree analysis, idk if you know about that project of mine
<Taco> the super missile just kills the bug instead of hitting the gate which may be due to lower jumping speed
<AranJaeger> in the case of using spazer?
<AranJaeger> but that would mean...
<AranJaeger> it is frozen too high or not?
<AranJaeger> the thing i am worried about is...
<AranJaeger> if one with horizontal spazer shot through gate
<AranJaeger> only can freeze the bug too low so that at the jump+diag shot
<AranJaeger> the super goes beneath the button and misses
<Taco> I tried freezing it lower and the problem was the same, as much as 20 pixels lower actually
<Taco> I haven't given up yet, though, it might just be a very precise trick without hj
<AranJaeger> also.. the idea to at right sie of the room start a shinesprk to use it for sandy room..
<AranJaeger> i tested it a very little
<Sniq> colosseum inbounds iceless spike-spark: not working
<AranJaeger> but it seems unlikely
<AranJaeger> not even pal?
<Sniq> pal is restricted due to longer invulnerability frames though
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<AranJaeger> hmm..
<AranJaeger> so with wave and w/o highjump that doesnt work either?
<AranJaeger> then i got to change some things too
<AranJaeger> bec the thing is... i´d want to know all different minimal item combs that allow to get past that thing
<AranJaeger> i mean.. technically
<Taco> I'm not sure, gonna try again soon
<AranJaeger> i dont need to have them confirmed
<AranJaeger> bec i can just distinguish cases and handle those as theoretical options
<AranJaeger> hmm ok
<AranJaeger> then sniq wanted to do spike-spark at wave
<AranJaeger> is it used for lavapit spark up?
<Taco> I've done it with HJ and wave, but without speedbooster, and I've got it frozen in the same spot with spazer+ice but haven't succeeded in making it work without HJ and without speedbooster
<AranJaeger> the free spark bec suitless
<Taco> so my assumption is that HJ has to be the problem here
<Overfiendvip> Well I don't know if I'll ever 'need' anything, although there is at least one thing I would want to say to him (a thank you of sorts), but I just like the idea of everyone related (especially TASers, since we don't really have many/any) idling and around
<AranJaeger> also... i really got to say... the fast grey door skip is..
<Taco> which is funny because I thought that was the least likely requirement
<AranJaeger> undescribably faster than what i had ever imagined
<Taco> I know right :D
<Taco> I think it can be even shorter
<Taco> also sure, I'll stick around overfiend :p
<Overfiendvip> Thank you ^_^
<AranJaeger> well... will you try ice-less ice-SBAs? bec i didnt give them that much hope or didnt think they´d have a cance
<AranJaeger> bec it would be messy to handle those there
<Taco> well I'll certainly try
<AranJaeger> the way i had a use of those in mind was for low%category types
<Taco> the thing is we need to disable ice for draygon anyway so the pause screen isn't a problem
<AranJaeger> that would need to climb everest with ice
<AranJaeger> to be able to jump off of the crabs at the wall in the single frame in which the ice-less ice sba freezes them
<AranJaeger> so that the crabs dont stop for so long due to being frozen
<AranJaeger> oh, so speedboster also needed at the ggg?
<Taco> I've done it without speedbooster although unfortunately not while recording, so I understand you can't take that as confirmation yet
<AranJaeger> i see
<AranJaeger> hmm... so lavapit, spark up, yes/no?
<Taco> maybe, we'll need to do some tests on it
<AranJaeger> sniq did spikespark aftr wave with the local spikes there
<AranJaeger> i had 1 little idea there idk if it can work but
<Taco> there are a lot of unanswered questions about this route
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<AranJaeger> the thing is.. ounceball into the lavapit, then when horizontal position fits, laying a bomb while sinking as ball then unmorphing for the purpose of getting hit by the bomb while sinking
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<AranJaeger> so that due to bombhit one can then start the spark before landing
<Sniq> that didn't work ed
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<AranJaeger> ah ok
<Sniq> bomb thingy
<AranJaeger> bec alling too fast i guess?
<Sniq> yes
<VortexKat> ohai
<AranJaeger> bec in theory it works
<AranJaeger> maybe with other place where one bounces of ground that is lower?
<AranJaeger> bec i know that one can end up
<AranJaeger> bouncing off in different places
<Sniq> maybe but it would still require taking speedbooster off
<AranJaeger> and one wants it so that last bounce happens at rather low place
<AranJaeger> so that sinking isnt so fast already
<AranJaeger> i see, yeah
<AranJaeger> hmm other things....? hmm...
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<AranJaeger> well shortercharge at the usual places wont help bec of pausing
<AranJaeger> only option for those to have a use is if they can be done at new places
<AranJaeger> and then those new places would also have to end up faster
<AranJaeger> and you dont know where the brute force algorithm can be gotten?
<AranJaeger> like i think this new tas shortcharge stuff should be done by brute force, or notß
<AranJaeger> although CP told at tasvideos that he found the old best pattrn by tests
<Sniq> total might be able to make a lua script for that
<AranJaeger> and then the brute force confirmed it was the best
<AranJaeger> yeah i hope for that
<Taco> yeah, I misremembered; brute forcing was done but it did only result in confirmation of cp's pattern
<AranJaeger> sniq tried at ridley´s platform in pal
<AranJaeger> almost made it
<Sniq> thats 2nd or 3rd time you wrote that
<Sniq> kappa keepo
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<AranJaeger> not in here...
<AranJaeger> or you mean the question about the brute force alg...
<Sniq> no , ridley pal platform :D
<AranJaeger> and botwoon route, not skipping him isnt considered an option anymore or how are the odds or ..?
<AranJaeger> i havent questions and stuff prepared....
<Taco> comparing suitless conditions only (or gravity-less, rather), skipping botwoon was about 30 seconds faster in the first test I did
<Taco> and that amount should be even greater with the green gate skip
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<AranJaeger> but CP (and/or HotD), they are directly helping/involved or for routing or how is the general setup or i have no clue..
<Taco> I also strongly believe the grey door skip is improvable by a significant amount still
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<AranJaeger> idk what they are doing
<Taco> we've just been PMing eachother on tasvideos, but not much has been said that you'd find interesting
<AranJaeger> i see
<AranJaeger> well one could lower samus´ CF center
<Taco> everything I've shared with them I've also shared with you and sniq
<AranJaeger> so the bugs start moving sideways earlier
<AranJaeger> and really no ammo for cf at draygon?
<AranJaeger> or is spike-spark too convenient?
<Taco> because phantoon is last we won't have wrecked ship super missiles
<Taco> so yeah only 5 until then
<AranJaeger> but also... uhm
<Taco> which also means we need a third PB pack for ridley most likely
<AranJaeger> you also tried to optimize the botwoon route i guess
<AranJaeger> btw, in snail room
<AranJaeger> did you there consider catnap222´s snail climb for ntsc?
<Sniq> botwoon is skipped
<AranJaeger> to not have to wait for snail to start climbing multiple times?
<Sniq> that room isnt visited <_<
<AranJaeger> i know
<AranJaeger> but in order to compare properly
<Taco> I just compared it to Saturn's RBO, minus about 25 seconds if he had used a shinespark in mt. doom
<Taco> I don't know if he used the strategy you're talking about there
<AranJaeger> one has to optimize both or at least to a point at which one can make sure
<AranJaeger> i was just asking
<Sniq> sidenote: mt doom = mt everest?
<Sniq> room with air balloon enemies
<Sniq> or mini-phantoon like
<Overfiendvip> Powamps
<Taco> right, sorry :p frustratingly people at tasvideos have different names for some things
<AranJaeger> uhm w8
<Sniq> no its fine
<Sniq> they dont have official names
<AranJaeger> tewtal knows about what i mean
<Sniq> everything made by people i think
<AranJaeger> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2Ij1D7bx5M
<AranJaeger> that is the snail climb i meant
<AranJaeger> and yes, old name of everest is mt. doom, at least at m2k2
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<Taco> it's obviously a pretty small community at tasvideos compared torealtime runners
<Taco> so the names we started out with are the ones that stuck :p
<AranJaeger> indeed
<Taco> that snail climb strategy was definitely not used in saturn's RBO
<AranJaeger> so, where are potential problems... other than those that i think i´m aware of or..?
<AranJaeger> bec slower?
<Taco> I'm not sure, I'll try comparing
<AranJaeger> its not doable like that in pal afaik
<AranJaeger> tewtal wanted to use that for low%IceBoots
<Taco> now that we've found so much in maridia the main problems with the route are gone, it's pretty certain that it's faster at this point than phantoon first
<AranJaeger> or i suggested it and it didnt work
<AranJaeger> really?
<AranJaeger> hmm ok thats interesting
<Taco> the main questions now are just minor item collection details that can be worked out with a little bit of testing
<AranJaeger> i mean, i gotta say i really really hoped this route would turn out being faster
<AranJaeger> 1 reason was that we´d have a new tas route
<AranJaeger> and that wouldnt be as humanly feasible
<Taco> I mean, I probably shouldn't speak too soon since it'd suck if it doesn't turn out to be faster
<Taco> but at this point I just can't imagine that being the case
<AranJaeger> like, for last tas route it was adapted so humans can run it
<AranJaeger> but for this one...
<Taco> yeah cpadolf said "let's see how long it takes realtime runners to adapt this route!"
<Taco> :D
<AranJaeger> also.. moph+unmoph at ggg slows it down immed and not an option at all, right?
<AranJaeger> LOL
<AranJaeger> especially the grey door skip..
<AranJaeger> i did that once it took very long
<AranJaeger> it would require some normalization strats for humans i guess
<AranJaeger> if at all possible
<AranJaeger> also, forgotten highway for going back
<Sniq> i can imagine this route being possible in pal !
<AranJaeger> another spikespark gotten at coloseum?
<Sniq> if any1 cares about that version anymore
<AranJaeger> i do
<AranJaeger> i care about both
<Sniq> there are several things that makes it perfectly possible for that version
<AranJaeger> and literaly every category
<Sniq> but impossible for ntsc
<AranJaeger> inb4 PAL run gets WR faster than ntsc Kappa
<AranJaeger> bec THAT would change things drastically
<AranJaeger> for runners i mean..
<AranJaeger> actually, its true although there is the list of names there, they are as if they dont exist... kinda interesting
<Taco> I know tasvideos wouldn't publish a pal tas just because it's faster
<AranJaeger> not new but interesting
<Taco> but I'm guessing realtime runners could switch if that turned out to be the case?
<AranJaeger> has anyone from that list of names good questions?
<AranJaeger> yes i think so
<AranJaeger> so well.. i guess one cant ask questions when not knowing enough about the topic or idk...
<Sniq> botwoon skip is slower and draygon fight most likely
<AranJaeger> should one explain the route or what we are talking about or idk
<Sniq> unassisted
<Sniq> well, its not worth explaining yet, but maybe worth doing a theory tas with savestates
<Sniq> just to see how much faster / slower it is
<Sniq> also, one wall climb after draygon would be required
<AranJaeger> and... just to have it asked... reverse lnf path has no chance
<AranJaeger> i only could imagine it for RBO
<Sniq> no, it requires x-ray
<AranJaeger> which is imo as i estimate it, the most outdated tas... i think
<AranJaeger> yes i know
<AranJaeger> bec there is so much one can do for rbo
<AranJaeger> not that the tasvidoes tas was bad at all
<AranJaeger> but new things seem to happen being convenient for that
<Taco> this will probably be my last tas for super metroid, but then again I thought that about the previous two I've worked on too
<Taco> that said, I would have a lot of fun tasing random hacks or something
<AranJaeger> oh i see
<AranJaeger> there are cool ones
<AranJaeger> and one could look for such
<AranJaeger> in which extreme sequence breaks would be applicable
<AranJaeger> that would provide both, cool things and shorter necessary time for tasing
<AranJaeger> sniq you wanted to try that shsp with grav jump if not using flashsuit after ggg?
<AranJaeger> it seems to close to be real though
<AranJaeger> or i mean.. rather far from close to being possible
<AranJaeger> taco, you know that theoretical option  ?
<AranJaeger> the thing would be
<AranJaeger> after the ggg with wave
<AranJaeger> to the right in this room, since it seems flashsuit cant be preverved at that ggg
<AranJaeger> to freeze a bug in the floor at right height so it extends the floor at the right side
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<AranJaeger> to charge a spark there and carry it after grav-jump into the pre-room of the room in which the spark shall be used towards the sandy room
<Taco> I haven't attempted it yet myself, but according to sniq freezing that bug at the right height isn't possible
<AranJaeger> i thought so..
<AranJaeger> they are very close to the place where they´d hve to be frozen
<AranJaeger> and one cant freeze them immediately it seems, bec of movement restrictions to not start shinespark
<AranJaeger> unless maybe not freezing them with a beamshot but with sba but idk
<AranJaeger> sba would require getting xclose enough
<AranJaeger> and it would probably kill them unless ice is turned off
<AranJaeger> sounds still impossible
<AranJaeger> and for 12%, or is that secret or idk?
<AranJaeger> also..
<AranJaeger> at any%...in lnf
<AranJaeger> its not useful to with ice get through floor at mickey mouse room to then in WRITG (pre huge rising acid room)
<AranJaeger> to at that rooms top enter it to charge spark
<AranJaeger> to diag shsp up in huge acid room
<AranJaeger> instead of going lower route from platfrom to platform
<Sniq> not useful or useful?
<AranJaeger> i think it takes long
<AranJaeger> but idk if it was considerd
<Sniq> no
<AranJaeger> bec in mickey mouse room
<Sniq> didnt think about that
<AranJaeger> there is only 1 redball that one could use to freeze it hight enough
<AranJaeger> bec only that guy has nice odd angle of bouncing off walls
<Taco> I remember it being considered at one point but getting an enemy in the right spot was very difficult and not worth it
<AranJaeger> so it can go to any place and hasnt periodic pattern
<Taco> I think it was in mid-2007 that there was a discussion about it in the super metroid thread
<AranJaeger> its possible but takes long yeah
<AranJaeger> hm okay
<AranJaeger> so it was known that one can ceiling clip through there
<AranJaeger> like the ceiling-cf in lowernorfair powerbomb room from the left
<AranJaeger> above unheated e-tank room
<Taco> it's been a long time, though, so I may give it another try
<AranJaeger> that then wasnt considered anymore
<AranJaeger> well, afaik there is only exactly 1 red ball enemy that can be used
<AranJaeger> and although their movement patterns are different in pal and ntsc
<AranJaeger> in ntsc this guy is in the lower long hall
<AranJaeger> and has to go to the right wall 4 times
<AranJaeger> and only then it can go up from square hall to square hall
<AranJaeger> the costs would be... time to run around there
<Taco> well, yeah, there's no way it would be faster in that case unfortunately
<AranJaeger> hmm... but maybe...
<AranJaeger> well if one uses the other path then
<AranJaeger> entering micky from top right
<AranJaeger> then going back to respawn the blovks
<Taco> it just seems like that with all of the super metroid knowledge we've gained since then, something must be applicable to that room
<Taco> you would know best though
<AranJaeger> hmm
<AranJaeger> well the thing is
<AranJaeger> i´m not a speedrunner at all
<AranJaeger> i dont estimate times
<AranJaeger> i only look for all kinds of options that theoretically exist
<AranJaeger> but atm i had idea
<AranJaeger> can one ceiling clip
<AranJaeger> so platform is conserved
<AranJaeger> how thick is it?
<AranJaeger> hmm...
<AranJaeger> if at all then onyl if one uses frozen yellow pirate
<AranJaeger> that is right next to the door to huge acid room as platform for crouch jump
<AranJaeger> to up there charge spark then enter huge acid room and shsp diag up
<AranJaeger> i´ll test quickly
<Sniq> dont test
<Sniq> ive tested that before and it works
<Taco> no need, another strategy using the spike glitch was discovered for that room
<AranJaeger> no the upper blocks
<Sniq> and yes, there is another strat already
<AranJaeger> are 2*2 blocks. seems impossible
<Taco> that said, whether or not we have the health to execute all of these sparks in ln depends on our item collection decisions :|
<AranJaeger> ah in WRITG the spikes at right wall low?
<AranJaeger> or will flashsuit from before lavapit be conserved for that?
<Sniq> no the first spike at bottom
<Sniq> around middle of the room
<Sniq> you can spark through the platform
<Sniq> and get flash suit
<Sniq> and up aswell
<AranJaeger> hmm...
<AranJaeger> so you mean...
<AranJaeger> in WRITG the lowest spikes
<Sniq> super short charge at previous room
<AranJaeger> at the spike-spark setup
<Sniq> writg spike-suit + spark up through platform
<Sniq> from bottom spike
<AranJaeger> the bluespark can go through the platform at which the spikes are
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<Sniq> exactly
<AranJaeger> i see
<AranJaeger> bec of jump extension via crouchjump into delayed shsp pose?
<Sniq> yes
<AranJaeger> like at my ceiling-infinite-grapple jumps extended with shsp i guess
<AranJaeger> ok
<AranJaeger> thats interesting
<AranJaeger> i didnt know about that option yet
<AranJaeger> and thats ofc much faster
<AranJaeger> hmm...
<AranJaeger> i dont think worth it but...
<AranJaeger> whe coming back from ninjapirates
<AranJaeger> shinesparking through the spikeplatforms?
<AranJaeger> or 1 of them*
<AranJaeger> instead of bombknockbacking through them
<AranJaeger> i think if at all bec of hp issues only option for things like 100%
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<AranJaeger> hmm if people want new things to test.. i got a large list of questions in my metconst thread aswell as a roughly 45 pages long word list of things at home but not translated...
<Taco> it wouldn't be as big of a problem if we collect ridley's etank
<AranJaeger> i´m just too busy
<AranJaeger> hm ok
<AranJaeger> what i meant there is
<Sniq> there is a variation i thought for it
<AranJaeger> if one charges spark at ninja pirate room
<Taco> there are 4 etanks to consider if we collect hijump, we need 3 of them, and which ones are collected also depends on whether we collect HJ before or after LN which is as of yet undetermined
<Taco> the only obvious one is the crateria tank
<AranJaeger> what variation?
<AranJaeger> i meant with shsp charged at ninjas, one can jump with downwards faced pose
<AranJaeger> right perfectly aligned beneath 1st spikeplatform
<AranJaeger> there start spark through it
<Sniq> i know
<Sniq> but i had other idea in my mind
<AranJaeger> ok well then
<Sniq> midair mockball from previous room
<Sniq> use bomb under the spike platform
<Sniq> unmorph on spike wall and crouch for shinespakr
<Sniq> get thorugh the 1st platform
<Sniq> use powerbomb high enough that it destroys statue
<AranJaeger> you mean..
<Sniq> while powerbomb is exploding, get flash suit from upper spike wall
<AranJaeger> using the spike-spark principle to get through
<AranJaeger> for another free spark?
<Sniq> no, simply navigate through the 1st platform with help of bomb
<Sniq> then get spike-suit from upper spikes while PB is exploding
<AranJaeger> oh i see...
<Sniq> then that shinespark suit is used at lower norfair back door pillars
<AranJaeger> and it lasts that long?
<Sniq> probaably
<AranJaeger> the prev charge
<AranJaeger> hmmkay
<Sniq> no idea because i didnt test yet
<AranJaeger> hm now i understand it correctly
<AranJaeger> yes the charge should stay long enough
<AranJaeger> sneaky abuse for another free spark lol
<AranJaeger> the tas probably wont have much energy there...
<AranJaeger> but at MB´s tank
<AranJaeger> CP runs for echoes during room state change...
<AranJaeger> spike-spark to skip crouch in 3rd escape room?
<AranJaeger> idk if even possible
<AranJaeger> to get the knockback from the tank appropriately
<AranJaeger> in 100% tas i think
<AranJaeger> are so many other things clear?
<AranJaeger> hmm saturn in rbo tas uses frozen plasma wave shot when getting back at forgotton highway
<AranJaeger> to stop the shinespark at the place he wants it to stpo
<AranJaeger> that is prolly the/an option for any% too with just wave
<AranJaeger> at eastern ocean
<AranJaeger> if one even gets that far with that litrle energy... :/
<AranJaeger> damn
<Overfiendvip> Will be quite interested to see how stretched energy gets
<AranJaeger> yeah
<Taco> energy is definitely the biggest issue with this route now that we've planned out maridia so well, but it wasn't easy with the other route either
<AranJaeger> one cant just spark everywhere
<AranJaeger> gotta add farming strats into the fst grey door skip aswell huh?
<AranJaeger> fast*
<Taco> haha :D
<AranJaeger> idk what has more weight
<AranJaeger> getting 3 cycle knockback grey door
<AranJaeger> or more energy or idk
<Taco> I'm currently doing a sloppy test tas to answer some questions about energy/ammo management throughout the tas since this route is so wildly different from anything done before
<Taco> so there's nothing to compare to
<AranJaeger> i see
<AranJaeger> its more like RBO now
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<AranJaeger> or well..
<AranJaeger> a mixture of low% and rbo
<AranJaeger> any interesting things to note/remark/discuss/ask/... otherwise?
<Taco> not much, although I look forward to breaking hacks with you in the future ;)
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<AranJaeger> guaranteed
<AranJaeger> i´d be definitely in for such
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<AranJaeger> hmm at the deanyd speedrunning guide
<AranJaeger> there is a list of lots of hacks including those of tases
<AranJaeger> one can either look into new ones or if one finds good nw improvements on given tases of hacks
<AranJaeger> one might obsolete others
<AranJaeger> but if that ggg issue with wave/spazer/speed/highjump could be worked out/solved regarding finding all minimal options of item-combs among those. thatd be great
<AranJaeger> but colosseum should be feasible
<Taco> alright, I'm done with the test tas for today so I'll try some stuff on the gate now
<AranJaeger> i cant believe it isnt
<AranJaeger> also if it isnt doable in tas manner
<AranJaeger> then if adding a reserve-bombjump and pause abuse, one should be able to get a nice positioning
<AranJaeger> of the ball next to the 2nd double-spike platform
<AranJaeger> :D
<Sniq> i meant colosseum thing isnt doable without ice beam
<Sniq> inbounds spike suit
<AranJaeger> yes and i´m not sure
<AranJaeger> i mean..
<Sniq> but with ice beam it should be
<AranJaeger> given infinite time
<AranJaeger> sure
<AranJaeger> with ice its like trivial
<AranJaeger> given infinite time
<AranJaeger> for fst time and optimizing for that
<AranJaeger> that would be a challenge ofc
<AranJaeger> thre are 6 mocktroids there
<AranJaeger> and about 1/4 block space each inbetween them
<AranJaeger> for hugebridge leading to ground onboth sides
<AranJaeger> so with inf. time there is no doubt
<AranJaeger> lol 8
<AranJaeger> not 6
<Sniq> interestingly mother brain spike suit should be enough to make 2'24''00 escape real
<AranJaeger> you really think that can be used?
<AranJaeger> or you mean if
<Sniq> cpadolf 2'23'98 or something
<AranJaeger> then it would lead to..
<Taco> it's not as exciting as a ceres escape improvement, but I'll take it :D
<AranJaeger> =)
<AranJaeger> yeah ceres was refreshing
<AranJaeger> tewtal told me about a new d-boost
<AranJaeger> and i asked him if it was a d-boost of one of the top steams at elevator room
<AranJaeger> to maybe somehow get faster with d-boost onto that platform
<AranJaeger> but he said it was a different boost
<AranJaeger> and yeah that one was very different and cool
<Sniq> that is a theoretical option too
<Taco> a few years ago I confirmed that a perfectly-timed steam boost on the side of the elevator would save 6 frames
<Taco> but there doesn't seem to be a good steam pattern for it
<AranJaeger> ah i see
<AranJaeger> so at least i wasnt too far off
<AranJaeger> with my wild guess
<Taco> another timesaver would be a steam boost to the door in the staircase room instead of the new one
<Taco> but again, no amount of luck manipulation results in a good pattern
<AranJaeger> a long high one i think
<AranJaeger> oh and yeah
<AranJaeger> another thing i guessed when tewtal told me it
<Taco> based on sniq's test, though, it seems there's a lot of different falling debris patterns in the second to last room that nobody knew about for
<Taco> there is the potential to save time with that
<AranJaeger> was if you somehow clipped into the door enemy at ridely, maybe when he flies away and gives some boost/knockback
<AranJaeger> to start running closes inside the door enemy
<Taco> it would be amazing if we could find a way to do that
<AranJaeger> but i didnt ever get to manage that with some tests
<AranJaeger> also a problem then would be
<Taco> the door is extremely easy to clip into with morph ball, but, well, that's obviously not an option here :p
<AranJaeger> if ridley would be used to push samus
<AranJaeger> then probably she would get in contact with door aswell
<AranJaeger> before room state changes
<AranJaeger> you sure its not an option to gte ball that early? Kappa
<Taco> O:
<Overfiendvip> :O
<AranJaeger> lol
<AranJaeger> but at WS the supers there are taken?
<AranJaeger> at least 10 but maybe earlier ones
<AranJaeger> and those skipped? hmm dont think so
<AranJaeger> but ammo like supers really would be needed for ridley
<AranJaeger> also riley powerbombs are probably the ones to go for
<AranJaeger> they are really close if wanting such
<Sniq> x-factor works for ridley
<Taco> for this route, the idea is to get both red brinstar powerbombs + ln powerbombs to have 15 for ridley
<Sniq> just fine
<AranJaeger> x-factors = powerbombs
<Taco> and just stick with 5 supers the entire time until WS where we'll get the usual pack for motherbrain
<AranJaeger> not really but
<AranJaeger> i see
<AranJaeger> lol
<AranJaeger> when i think about those poor speedruners
<AranJaeger> XD
<AranJaeger> that want to do that route
<Taco> hahaha
<Overfiendvip> You would have 15 PBs at MB2
<Sniq> doable in pal!
<Overfiendvip> Which implies X-Factors there too like before
<Overfiendvip> Can you explain how that works / would work?
<Sniq> unless ive forgotten something
<Overfiendvip> Because I recall there being notes about how it was difficult / not possible in scenarios to have particles land properly, something like that, but in the current TAS it's hard to tell
<Overfiendvip> So I would enjoy hearing an explanation
<Taco> I don't remember the details too well, it's been a long time since we finished that tas
<Taco> but I don't recall there being any major problems getting them to land
<Overfiendvip> Hmm, okay
<AranJaeger> kott had a strange but interesting setup for humanly x-factoring ridley with full hits
<AranJaeger> but its nothing for tas
<AranJaeger> also.. equipping moonwalk ever considered? how long does it take to get it, no way it could help?
<AranJaeger> i know its far out of the way
<AranJaeger> and little is known about moonwalk
<Sniq> this far, moonwalk only allows entering oob without items
<AranJaeger> and things that would make it worth it...
<Sniq> <_<
<AranJaeger> yeah
<AranJaeger> well..
<Taco> hey, moonwalk saves one frame in ceres :)
<AranJaeger> to the right side with hoandizi/Cpadolf turnaround-breaks...
<AranJaeger> lol
<AranJaeger> where...hmm
<AranJaeger> i guess..
<AranJaeger> at falling off of the 1st platform
<AranJaeger> bec one can do some strange
<AranJaeger> turnaround low spinjumps backwards eith them
<AranJaeger> from platforms downwards to the side
<Sniq> wut?
<AranJaeger> its not that special
<AranJaeger> just a minor thing
<Taco> actually it's on the way to ridley at the door at the bottom of the staircase room
<AranJaeger> just mess around with it
<AranJaeger> in my uhm...
<AranJaeger> 14%grapple-xray little oob demo movie
<Taco> but it could be there too, I have no idea what you're talking about :P
<AranJaeger> i turned moonwalk on for fun
<AranJaeger> and i did such a weird turnaround fall that doesnt really look that new but is certainly different i´d say
<AranJaeger> i do such there when entering brinstar
<Sniq> video link!
<AranJaeger> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FT4iCeT00c&list=PL5If8zSOO37ZuXY4PmmnNxcvzRm5ak-X5&index=34
<AranJaeger> i do some slow moonwalk there at first i notice
<AranJaeger> but its true, one can in some way start low backwards fallig spinjumps with it
<AranJaeger> it doesnt look fast ther at all...
<Sniq> moment when it happens?
<Sniq> time
<AranJaeger> ww8
<AranJaeger> 8:46
<AranJaeger> arounf there
<AranJaeger> when i get off elevator
<AranJaeger> its relly just minor as i say
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<AranJaeger> in suitless conditions
<AranJaeger> messing with backwards spinjumps, low ones, one can observe it a little more clear i thin
<AranJaeger> i wanted to mess around with moonwalk throughout that demo vid at some places when i felt like it..
<AranJaeger> just to maybe stumble upon noteorthy things
<AranJaeger> i mean...
<AranJaeger> the moonwalk there is slow
<AranJaeger> but the height of the spinjump backwards out of the monwalk
<AranJaeger> starts rather low
<AranJaeger> at least i think it does or idk
<Taco> did you compare that to a normal jump or to an elevator hop? (jumping immediately upon turning when the elevator ride finishes)
<Taco> because if you compared it to an elevator hop, that starts out a few pixels higher for some reason
<AranJaeger> yes there are the elev hops that the tases do
<AranJaeger> and no, i have no clue
<Taco> if jumping after moonwalking really does start samus out a little lower then there could be some one frame savers throughout the game with it
<Taco> but surely not enough to justify the time spent activating it unfortunately
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<Aran> goddamnit
<Aran> i got disconnected and couldnt go back normally
<Aran> idk why
<Aran> even my name is still up there
<Aran> how is that?
<Aran> why is this thing so glitchy
<Aran> people still there, what has been said?
<Overfiendvip> [08:26:16 PM] <Taco> if jumping after moonwalking really does start samus out a little lower then there could be some one frame savers throughout the game with it
<Overfiendvip> [08:26:24 PM] <Taco> but surely not enough to justify the time spent activating it unfortunately
<Aran> thx =)
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<Aran> ah i see
<Aran> it would take some frames getting it, would change ceres and boss and drop rng..
<Aran> hmm.. if wanting to break some hacks
<Aran> i could prepare some i guess
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<Aran> but there is so much to do and only so few people are doing things
<Aran> oh yeah right...
<Aran> so, outside of tasing realm, regarding that suitless ice-less colosseum spark
<Aran> the problem as sniq says is 3rd and 4th taps
<Aran> at 2nd 2-blocks wide spike-platform
<Aran> idk if one can stay with angled crouch at 1st spike-platform with 2nd tap level
<Aran> if so, then the idea to make it slow and theoretically maybe possible, would be to have 00 hp, pause abuse then jump stationary into the gap inbetween the 2 spikeplatforms
<Aran> then at right height a reserv-bombjump via morphing midair and laying bomb when screen fades out for turning enough reserve energy to auto
<Overfiendvip> Just curious, but if you unequip Speed, do you immediately lose all 'boost counters' or no
<Aran> so that when unpausing, the bomb explodes while samus stays in position
<Aran> yes
<Aran> when in crouched angled pose e.g.
<Aran> turning it off then on without moving inbetween will kill the boost level
<Overfiendvip> I wasn't going suggest doing that anyway because it wouldn't be possible to incorporate in this case, but was curious
<Aran> and all other instances that i checked behave the same way
<Aran> e.g. at runnign with echoes and continueing without and then turning it back on while still running
<Aran> wont bring the echoes immed back
<Aran> thats also
<Taco> good news, I just recorded an smv of opening the gate without speedbooster
<Taco> it seems that hijump may actually be a requirement though
<Aran> why the new shortcharge tas strat for even shorter distance can only use unequipped speedbooster before 1st tap
<Aran> GOOD!
<Aran> THX
<Aran> you might have missed...
<Aran> but i got disconnected
<Taco> I've been reading everything, don't worry :)
<Aran> i still dont know how that happens, if that is my internet connection, the time how long i was in here or someone kicking me out (unlikely) but yeh...
<Aran> but well
<Aran> it possily cant be the time how long i was here
<Aran> most people are here 24/7
<Aran> such an issue would be world wide known...
<Aran> so yeah...
<Aran> i dont want to at all make unfitting promises at all regarding any moonwalk illusions
<Aran> so if even w8 sry
<Aran> so..
<Aran> if wanting to at all test moonlwak´s potential
<Aran> then one could look into some quirks that it alone provides at certain room structures or in combination with other items
<Aran> but i estimate it isnt worth it unless it can be used together with speedbooster for some shortcharge quirk...
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<MSDS3170> are we finally gonna get bowling skip via moonwalking
<MSDS3170> the prophecy becomes a reality
<Aran> well...
<Aran> not via moonwalking but
<Aran> via gravity skip
<Overfiendvip> IDK much about moonwalk but maybe you could walk backwards until you produce a 'tap frame' then start forward movement
<Aran> with the new route
<Aran> yeah i mentioned something similar at tasvideos
<Aran> like instead of starting to shortcharge out of static pose
<Aran> to instead of that
<Aran> start it out of one of the different poses that samus can be in
<Aran> when doing moonwalk agaisnt wall at her back
<Aran> or something like that..idk