Arte - Today at 6:08 PM
Reverse dair at ledge connects on Fox – follow up flowchart
•    Techs
    o    Walljump side b onto stage / up b : react by double jump bairing
    o    Techs side b (not possible if dair hits low ?) : don’t leave ledge, or
    o    Techs up b high : falling bair/uair while drifting towards stage
    o    Techs up b low : >Meteor cancel
•    Meteor cancel
    o    Falling weak knee
    o    Wait, react to angle :
            Single hit nair resets the situation but you’re now onstage (follow up with weak knee)
            The angle will sweetspot : ledge getup
            The angle won’t sweetspot : (invul needs to be refreshed) : bair from ledge (and possibly knee follow up on survival)(edited)
what is format
so do I get this right ? ^
$etchi - Today at 6:13 PM
keep in mind that he can techshine your edgecancel stomp
but
you still have your DJ so you get back to ledge anyway
and then you carry on
lol
Arte - Today at 6:14 PM
can he ? how long does it take to reach the ledge after the edgecancel ?
$etchi - Today at 6:14 PM
he might not be able to if it's frame perfect
Arte - Today at 6:15 PM
oh but I guess I can't assume it edgecancels one frame after the hit
$etchi - Today at 6:15 PM
but realistically it won't be
eya
yea
Arte - Today at 6:15 PM
yeah ok
$etchi - Today at 6:22 PM
@Arte @OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER https://youtu.be/kmqf1DpkVUA
YouTube
Adam Farmer
Edgecancel stomp edgeguard concept

what I mean
also first video with my new quality settings
lol
no idea why I didn't do 16:9 for videos before
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:23 PM
ye
we've labbed this before iirc
good visual rep tho
$etchi - Today at 6:24 PM
also I labbed this ages ago and I think falcon can cover every option from an edgecancel stomp
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:24 PM
yea i remember that
$etchi - Today at 6:24 PM
I think if a falcon was to actively practice it with a fox player who is capable of everything
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:24 PM
but i thought you couldn't cover all
$etchi - Today at 6:24 PM
they could cover everything on reaction
however some are only soft cover
while others are hard kills
but yeah whether he can cover all on reaction is really just theory rn
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:25 PM
Okay so this is currently for Fox. I have not yet tested Falco.
This is a flowchart of what to do when a Fox walltechs your edgeguarding stomp. And potentially cover EVERY option.
The most annoying option they have is walltech side b sweetspot, but this is gotten around by edgecancelling your stomp backwards and just grabbing ledge. Then, if they side b they'll just fall and die.
However, they obviously have other options such as walljump tech side b onstage, walljump tech side b shortens, walljump tech airdodge, etc.
How do we cover all of these options?
This is all based around the fact that fox sweetspot side b's after a walltech, not a walljump tech
This means you can take ledge (after say, an edgecancel stomp) and react to the walljump tech to start the option coverage.
If they did not walljump tech then you can simply stay on ledge, the fox will either side b or up b and you can kill them.
From here it branches into the reaction/option coverage of this potential flowchart.
When you see them walljump tech, you want to let go of ledge and fastfall for a frame or 2. This should be done roughly 16 frames into when you notice the animation difference. Might be able to be done earlier.
After this fastfall you double jump (into stage, slightly) and from there it's all reaction.
Let's start with the first option they have, walljump tech side b into ledge. You could uair this on reaction during your DJ but it would hit them into the stage and they could walltech. I found that if you nair on reaction to this during your DJ, you can hit them with the first hit. If they SDI up and in on the first hit then they'll go up with you and get combo'd. Any other DI seems to force them to up b or airdodge momentum trick, both of which can be reacted to and punished.
So their next option is walljump tech side b onstage (just above stage).
You can uair this on reaction during your DJ, hitting them onstage at which point you could follow them and techchase. You could potentially also waveland onstage and punish the side b.

Another option for fox is to go further from the walljump tech and mixup between side b onstage and side b shorten.
During your DJ, react and uair similar to last time, if you position yourself near ledge then the back hit of uair should hit the shortens, even mid shorten . Fox might be able to find a middle ground between the lowest falcon uair hitbox and ledge, but I could not find any from testing.
2 more options to go.
So lets say they walljump tech
found it
$etchi - Today at 6:26 PM
I'm gonna test the max amount of stomp frames you can have active before an edgecancel so that you can still cover the side b
/w fastfall ledgegrab
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:26 PM
2 more options to go.
So lets say they walljump tech and go out to try to side b far to ledge, what are you going to do during your DJ? This is the coolest one to cover imo.
During your DJ you can react to this side b and haxdash back to ledge.... killing them.. it's so cool.
There's also walljump tech airdodge which can be covered with an aerial on reaction during your DJ, the airdodge has a lot of lag!

They have some more gimmicky options like walljump tech bair and walljump tech up b, but these would be pretty standard to cover.

Walltech jump waveland is an option if they get a high walltech. To stop this you'd simply low stomp their up b. However they could potentially get a high walltech with multiple SDI, which would force a mixup to this flowchart.(edited)
@Arte
$etchi - Today at 6:27 PM
how long ago did I make that
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:27 PM
a long fucking time
LOL
when i was new
a year ago
$etchi - Today at 6:27 PM
rofl and still probably haven't had to use it
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:27 PM
ye
$etchi - Today at 6:27 PM
bcuz foxes are TRASH
OPTIMAL FALCON PLAYER - Today at 6:27 PM
tech up b
xd
LOL
i mean
ill take it
Arte - Today at 6:29 PM
oh wow
$etchi - Today at 6:29 PM
"Let's start with the first option they have, walljump tech side b into ledge. You could uair this on reaction during your DJ but it would hit them into the stage and they could walltech. I found that if you nair on reaction to this during your DJ, you can hit them with the first hit"
Year ago setchi was SPICY
Arte - Today at 6:30 PM
but can't we directly attack them if they walljump tech ?
instead of double jumping slightly onto stage
as in, a fat double jump backwards bair
$etchi - Today at 6:30 PM
no because they can airdodge or w/e if you try that
Arte - Today at 6:30 PM
oh yeah
$etchi - Today at 6:30 PM
you can react to airdodge from the DJ in
I'm starting to remember now
LOL
Arte - Today at 6:31 PM
the air dodge angle limitations on the b0xx make me so mad
i barely can't tech walljump waveland
because of it
if i follow the same limitations
when tech walljump on a falcon up b recover is going to be a super common situation :rage:
They have some more gimmicky options like walljump tech bair and walljump tech up b, but these would be pretty standard to cover.

well you're invincible anyway so :neutral_face:
(for walljump tech bair)
$etchi - Today at 6:35 PM
even if you don't do this theory flowchart I made ages ago
just edgecanceling stomp and grabbing ledge covers so many of their options
and is ahead of where the meta is atm lmao