4:34 PM] grey limbo state garg: The problem here is that if she argues from the point of view of societal perception, it is difficult to expect for people who are not in the know to perceive, for example, not-outed transpeople as being in their gender.
[4:34 PM] open_sketch: yeah my thought
[4:35 PM] grey limbo state garg: like
[4:35 PM] grey limbo state garg: it is a point that @Yonic The Leghog has also made
[4:35 PM] Yonic The Leghog: That whole thread is ironically more essentialist than Wynn
[4:35 PM] grey limbo state garg: there is something awfully essentialist about asuming that there is
[4:35 PM] open_sketch: and she literally walks back qualifications over the course of the latest video bc it’s designed to trick fuckboys?
[4:36 PM] open_sketch: until by the end she’s like “you know being straight is fucking gay so just be good to whoever you find attractive”
[4:36 PM] open_sketch: free of qualifiers
[4:36 PM] grey limbo state garg: like
[4:36 PM] grey limbo state garg: full disclaimer?
[4:37 PM] open_sketch: i just don’t understand what i’m doing wrong that i don’t find her hurtful or offensive and
[4:37 PM] grey limbo state garg: probably part of the reason why i find transmen in general more attractive than cis men is because how androgynous they end up looking - does it mean i fail to recognize them as men? should i be ashamed of that?
[4:37 PM] open_sketch: it makes me scared i’ll replicate her behaviour and be likewise crucified. except i don’t make nearly half a mill a year to cushion that
[4:38 PM] grey limbo state garg: sketch
[4:38 PM] grey limbo state garg: heres the thing
[4:38 PM] grey limbo state garg: contra
[4:38 PM] grey limbo state garg: isnt in the wrong
[4:38 PM] open_sketch: being right or wrong doesn’t mattee
[4:38 PM] open_sketch: matter
[4:38 PM] open_sketch: it doesn’t protect you
[4:39 PM] grey limbo state garg: and contra isnt even all that academic, lol
[4:39 PM] open_sketch: i recently went on an internet dive after eukie linked me a tg post and i discovered that recommendations for patrol are now usually qualified with “fyi the author is a tranny”. which probably explains some of the emails i get
[4:39 PM] grey limbo state garg: her reading of butler was shallow af
[4:39 PM] grey limbo state garg: at least for the vidya
[4:39 PM] Yonic The Leghog: "you fucked up a perfectly good monkey is what you did. Look at it, it's got anxiety"
[4:39 PM] Yonic The Leghog: Damn you, God!
[4:39 PM] open_sketch: i get harassment now and i barely make enough to live
[4:40 PM] Serafina: look the main problem with contra is that she just refuses to fucking acknowledge any position but her own
[4:40 PM] Serafina: other than the positions of really edgy assholes
[4:40 PM] Yonic The Leghog: >HRG does the same thing in that thread
[4:40 PM] Yonic The Leghog: So who's gonna tell her
[4:40 PM] Yonic The Leghog: Because I don't want to
[4:40 PM] open_sketch: i just
[4:41 PM] open_sketch: i already get harassment from the usual suspects
[4:41 PM] open_sketch: i dunno how i’m gonna handle the harassment from the people “on my side”
[4:41 PM] Serafina: look sketch I doubt Contra has any sensitivity readers ever
[4:42 PM] Yonic The Leghog: @open_sketch we both know you put a hell of a lot of work into being careful and respectful, and we both know that to some ass hole that'll never be enough
[4:43 PM] grey limbo state garg:
That statement isn't false, but it's very loaded when you consider this: Does that make it gay if you have sex with a trans women who HASN'T been on hormones? This statement alone implies that you have to pass in order to be seen as a women and "not gay."
 -> from the point of the heteronormative, cisnormative society? unfortunately, most of the time you have
[4:44 PM] open_sketch: yeah what i’m saying is i’m worried it doesn’t matter how much work i put in if the thing i’m doing is fundamentally wrong and i don’t know how to know if that’s true and
[4:45 PM] open_sketch: i didn’t used to be scared of this. 25 year old me wrote a historical war crimes simulator and didn’t blink
[4:45 PM] open_sketch: and now 28 year old me is terrified
[4:45 PM] grey limbo state garg:
She cites Judith Butler as being the philosopher of gender that most greatly influences her. Butler is most known for her theory of Gender performativity. Essentially, this is the idea that your gender isn't decided by you; it's decided by those around you.
 -> this is not what gender performativity in butler means
[4:45 PM] grey limbo state garg: ffs
[4:45 PM] grey limbo state garg: jesus fucking christ, gender trouble is almost thrity years old at this point
[4:45 PM] grey limbo state garg: you can
[4:45 PM] grey limbo state garg: actually
[4:45 PM] grey limbo state garg: reading easy commentary on that
[4:46 PM] grey limbo state garg:
This means that Wynn has decided that being seen by others as a woman is more important that being a woman and having "woman" be a part of your identity. Living up to the standards of cisgender people matters more than what makes you happy as a trans person.
 -> and this is hella, hella essentialist
[4:48 PM] grey limbo state garg:
This subsequently means that if a woman with a penis decided she wants to use her penis in a "masculine" fashion (i.e. penetrating another),  sex with that woman suddenly gay, because it doesn't fulfill the requirements of femininity.
 -> while this is actually a good criticism
[4:49 PM] open_sketch: she later talks a bit in the video about pegging and stuff though like
[4:49 PM] open_sketch: idk
[4:49 PM] grey limbo state garg:
If a trans woman wishes to use her penis in a sexually dominant fashion, she has every right to and will still be a woman. If her partner is uncomfortable with that, they can just leave. They don't have to date her
 -> this contains an assumption that sexual penetration is always dominant
[4:49 PM] grey limbo state garg: this is either a massive mistake of terminology (active, not dominant sexual role)
[4:50 PM] grey limbo state garg: or some rather essentialist assumption about how sex is done
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg:
Just like any cisgender relationship, you can break up with your partner if they do sexual things that you don't enjoy or consent to. It's really that simple. A trans woman doesn't have to hide her penis away just because that's the "feminine" thing to do.

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HRG 🚪Kay
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@probskay
 18h18 hours ago
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That still plays into gender performativity, and it still harms trans women who choose to not play into those ideas. Wynn is actively trying to police other trans people's bodies and how they use them. She never once clarifies "I personally do this." She uses "women" as a blanket
 -> how does this play into gender performativity, for fuck's sake
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg: i wish
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg: she'd actually reach for butler
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg: and look at what she has to say about resignification
[4:51 PM] Yonic The Leghog: >wynn is trying to police trans women
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg: and far be it from butler to be above criticism (she's not very good about intersectionalism in her early writings)
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg: but this is a very bad misrepresentation
[4:51 PM] grey limbo state garg: fuck
[4:52 PM] grey limbo state garg:
The real kicker to this whole ordeal? When Natalie is portraying herself wholesale, instead of a character, she has a printed out image of Astolfo, the most famous example of a "trap," sitting behind her in clear view the entire time.
 -> i know this is petty
[4:52 PM] grey limbo state garg: but switching to first name like that
[4:52 PM] grey limbo state garg: is more than a little condescending
[4:53 PM] grey limbo state garg:
Her second character is a caricature of a Victorian era woman. The goal here, by my inference, is to parody the beliefs of the right and their thoughts on "traps." However, she fails to actually do that because she never echoes their beliefs. She just poses the topic of the video
 -> "victorian" is a metonymy of regressive attitudes towards sex and gender in our society
[4:53 PM] grey limbo state garg: like, even without watching the contra video
[4:54 PM] Yonic The Leghog: Also she's not Victorian
[4:54 PM] grey limbo state garg: victorians wouldn't be talking about traps anyway, they'd be talking about mollies or fairies and in a completely different context
[4:54 PM] grey limbo state garg: which you would recognize if you were not... some... sort... of an essentialist?
[4:54 PM] grey limbo state garg:
So here are the takeaways: Wynn preaches almost solely gender performativity, tries to impose her personal performativity onto everyone else, and then also introduces her video with a shitty character for no reason. She uses theatrics as a distraction above anything meaningful
[4:54 PM] grey limbo state garg: and here's she almost getting it
[4:54 PM] grey limbo state garg: "her personal performativity"
[4:54 PM] grey limbo state garg: like, this is a core aspect of butler's thought
[4:55 PM] grey limbo state garg: there is no gender. there is no such thing as "a woman" there only perfomances of femnity which are socially constructed
[4:55 PM] grey limbo state garg: and as all socially constructed things
[4:55 PM] grey limbo state garg: they are a subject to appropriation, subversion and reappropriation
[4:56 PM] grey limbo state garg: which means that performing your womanhood in ways that do not conform with hetero/cisnormative standards is a valid way to not only express yourself, but also to combat those attitudes
[4:56 PM] grey limbo state garg: also, interesting thing
[4:57 PM] grey limbo state garg: this person identifies themselves via trans-with-an-asterix thing
[4:57 PM] grey limbo state garg: which, as i am told by @Big Dyke Energy is currently depreciated
[4:57 PM] grey limbo state garg: also final thing
[4:57 PM] grey limbo state garg:
Wynn is not a good person to draw ideology from when concerning gender. She doesn't use good ideology herself, and doesn't preach good ideology either. The things she said in this video is going to harm people, and she's indifferent to that.
[4:57 PM] grey limbo state garg: this is more personal, but "gender ideology" is a term used by action groups that attempt to attack and hurt gender studies as a field
[4:58 PM] grey limbo state garg: generally from hyperconservative angles
[4:58 PM] grey limbo state garg: therefore the polish church just won't shut up about "gender ideology"
[4:58 PM] grey limbo state garg: this is why one of the first things that my teachers lay into my head when they talk to students about gender
[4:58 PM] grey limbo state garg: is that gender is not ideology
[4:58 PM] grey limbo state garg: now there's some question to what degree this is defensible (hinges on the particular interpretation of the term "ideology")
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: but if you are trying to use a saintly and sanitized language
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: you're
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: failing hard
[4:59 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: i just want to say one thing and that is hell yea androgyny @grey limbo state garg
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg:
Also, Butler has clarified in later stuff (like the interview I'm linking) that her views are more nuanced and that she absolutely sees trans people as our correct gender. Natalie consistently misapplies Butler to support her own views.
 -> have
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: you
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: read
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: anything
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: by
[4:59 PM] grey limbo state garg: butler
[5:00 PM] grey limbo state garg: smashes head against the wall
[5:00 PM] Serafina: honestly I don't fucking care what butler said, and I linked that twitter-thing not because of what it said about butler
[5:00 PM] grey limbo state garg: i made my way by the bulk of her readings and yes it is a fucking pain but she's made that point in 1989
[5:00 PM] grey limbo state garg: you linked it and i profoundly disagree with the assumptions it make and i think that the arguments presented there just do not stand to scrunity
[5:02 PM] grey limbo state garg: to paraphrase, this thread presents a thinly veiled essentialist view of gender hidden behind a veneer of self-righteous assertions of being More Progressive than the rest
[5:05 PM] Serafina: and I think it presents some legitimate grievanes with ContraPoints, and it's important to acknowledge that people who disagree with her do have legitimate grievances that do have reasoning behind it, instead of just being blind attacks
[5:05 PM] grey limbo state garg: i don't think those are blind attacks
[5:05 PM] grey limbo state garg: i think those are wrong attacks
[5:06 PM] Serafina: why? what makes them wrong?
[5:06 PM] Serafina: not being sufficiently philosophicaly correct?
[5:06 PM] TenfoldShields: garg just-
[5:06 PM] TenfoldShields: Just went through point by point :V
[5:06 PM] Yonic The Leghog: I mean as an abstract point if one wants to invoke philosophy as criticism then you have to use it accurately
[5:06 PM] Yonic The Leghog: And specifically she literally just went point by point
[5:06 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: if you build your base on a text and get that text wrong your base is not built on a solid fundament
[5:06 PM] grey limbo state garg: No, embracing an extremely narrow understanding of gender that requires a stable, almost transcendent identity.
[5:07 PM] grey limbo state garg: Also completely neglecting the difference between talking about societal and personal attitudes.
[5:07 PM] open_sketch: i mean hell if we look only at how i identify for my own gender like
[5:08 PM] open_sketch: i say i’m a man a lot
[5:08 PM] open_sketch: and think it
[5:08 PM] open_sketch: it’s not helpful for figuring out who i am
[5:08 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: to quote the old testament
31 “Your Majesty looked, and there before you stood a large statue—an enormous, dazzling statue, awesome in appearance.
32 The head of the statue was made of pure gold, its chest and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze,
33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of baked clay.
34 While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its feet of iron and clay and smashed them.
35 Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were all broken to pieces and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.


an argument can be as good as it wants, but if it stands on feet of clay, it will crumble on those feet
[5:08 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: and i believe garg has just sufficiently explained why those feet are in fact
[5:08 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: of clay
[5:09 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: she is nice that way
[5:10 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: @open_sketch

me, five-ish months ago: i am definitely cis i just have feminine habits
me, one month ago: but what if
me, now: reality is fake news and i wish to cancel my subscription
[5:10 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: fuck gender
[5:10 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: and sympathies to thee, wanderer on that hellish path
[5:12 PM] open_sketch: i just am really bad at not self harming by reinterpreting my actions and thoughts with “well duh i think that i’m a man that’s what men think”
[5:12 PM] Part-Time Kouhai ManusDomini: alas, thou devilish self, art thou not our greatest opponent
[5:19 PM] Serafina: but seriously that's basically ContraPoints thing to me and it's superannoying:
she dresses whatever she says - which, again, often ignores everything but well-passing trans women - up in a lot of philosophy, thus dragging anyone who wants to critique her into a philosophy contest.

So the legitimate critics who put in effort mostly make some mistakes there and get endlessly critisized for that, and she keeps ignoring them.
[5:19 PM] grey limbo state garg: But the thing is, Contrapoints doesn't do a lot of philosophy. From my exposure to her? She barely does any, she cites one or two authors.
[5:19 PM] Yonic The Leghog: This isn't some mistakes, it's a basic misapprehension
[5:20 PM] grey limbo state garg: And the problem with the legitimate critics is that their arguments are flawed, not that they cite stuff wrong.
[5:20 PM] grey limbo state garg: That is a different, separate problem.