Zir dorman12/23/2020
Tbh not really a fan of the staking ICAP for more ICAP.
Zir Agape12/23/2020
interesting, how come?
Zir dorman12/23/2020
For one all the other staked tokens generate fees that go into ICAP. ICAP doesnt.
Zir Agape12/23/2020
hmm, feels like a hollow argument to me
true, staking ICAP would not generate extra cash flow
but does the act of staking generate it for the other tokens as well?
no, it's their existence and usage beyond the staking function (fees)
however, staking ICAP would decrease the sell pressure of ICAP, and thus increase price
additionally, it would make ICAP similar to other cashflow-redirecting farm tokens (compounding), which is something that investors expect from these projects
it wouldn't be as great an improvement as releasing a completely new Invictus fund, rather that I argue that implementing ICAP staking would give benefits, while having little to no drawbacks
ie. exactly such an improvement that we ought to explore implementing
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
Free to leave suggestions on the board, we would probably not allow plain staking of ICAP - maybe the LP tokens if you provide liquidity on Uniswap.
Zir Agape12/23/2020
we can discuss the suggestions here rigoriously, I think
my main concern in not having ICAP staking is that without such a functionality the most optimal behaviour might well be to sell ICAP tokens rapidly and purchase more of the original fund back
enabling native ICAP staking could be parametrized realatively easily to outperform such rapid ICAP selling behaviour
the LP token pooling might be a better way to implement it than pure ICAP staking, could use some theoretizing
Uniswap v2 pools require assets in 50/50 ratio, so the sell pressure of ICAP would still exist, but halved
bokou12/23/2020
LP tokens is a good idea, but I guess there are some people afraid of impermanent loss and won't add liquidity because of this, maybe a higher rate for LP tokens and a lower one for plain ICAP..
Zir Agape12/23/2020
I think that enabling ICAP/ETH LP token staking is not optimal
other, perhaps better alternatives:
1) pure ICAP staking
2) ICAP/stablecoin LP staking (TUSD or USDC?)
3) Balancer pool (not a fan of this due to lower liquidity)
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
@bokou Yeah, there is a risk, that's why we are rewarding the 'market makers' with something that should be good enough compensation for the risk
Zir Agape12/23/2020
and maybe
4) ICAP/C20, ICAP/C10 etc. LP token staking
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
we won't allow plain ICAP staking, doesn't make sense
bokou12/23/2020
@Daniel_Schwartzkopff makes sense, it will be more rewards for risk takers then :smile:
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
LP tokens - ETH/ICAP, Stablecoins/ICAP etc. yes
@bokou it's the same for anything in life, really - no reward without risk, that's how you spot a ponzi :slight_smile:
Zir Agape12/23/2020
I fail to see the viewpoint where ICAP staking makes no sense, from my beliefs and experiences it does, thus discussion is good!
perhaps via discussion the staking of LP tokens can be identified as a more beneficial improvement
perhaps I'm comparing ICAP to defi farm tokens like SUSHI or FARM, and others are seeing it as something different, and this causes the differences in opinion
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
Farm tokens are by and large just ponzis
Zir Agape12/23/2020
hmm
what makes ICAP different then :thinking:
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
Er, look at where the intrinsic value of ICAP comes from
Zir Agape12/23/2020
yeah I get the cashflow to value
FARM does this as well
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
Most of those food coins don't have any revenues
Zir Agape12/23/2020
hmm
perhaps I've misunderstood the revenue flow then
I've somehow thought that the fees collected from DEXes like uniswap, curve and sushiswap, redirected into token buybacks are the same as invictus fees being funneled to ICAP buyback
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
Sushiswap yes
Farm does a small % of fees
They are exceptions
Circulating supply at launch: 0 FARM
70% Liquidity providers
10% Treasury
20% Team
There will be none of that here, so - much better!
Zir Agape12/23/2020
that is a good point
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
No one to dump on the market because no one will have any tokens to dump, and it's going to be distributed amongst a huge pool of people
Zir Agape12/23/2020
so the cash flow is more efficiently funneled back to the investors in ICAP than in FARM or SUSHI
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
The problem with those is that as long as you have people that got tokens for $0, when everyone else has to do something; i.e. stake etc., the effective price floor of the coin is $0
There are people that can exit profitably until it literally hits zero
Zir Agape12/23/2020
There are people that can exit profitably until it literally hits zero
this is perhaps where there's a mindset difference
I perceive ICAP as being received somehow "free" as well, thus the idea that selling it at any price is profitable
I fear that if there's no other use for ICAP than selling, people will sell them at once when they receive them
I'd like for there to be some other use for the token, that would compete against just selling them off asap
governance is good
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
It's worth at least as much as the penalty fee already
Since you can't get out for less than that
Plus the value of the liquidity pool & future revenues
Zir Agape12/23/2020
that is a good point, I hadn't considered the value tat the penalty fee brings
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
So say we have $5m staked and everyone staked for 1 year, the penalty fees for everyone to exit today would mean ICAP would net like $100k for those that remain
Zir Agape12/23/2020
nice, this is significant
I'm starting to believe that LP:ing ICAP is enough to prevent selloff outweighing the cashflow
I had underestimated the cashflow, having perceived the 10% to be small
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
To vote you'll need to stake, same as Truefi / Yfi etc.
not the same as staking to earn though, just for the vote
Zir Agape12/23/2020
what was the initial LP that Invictus will provide the seed to, and how much was it?
Daniel_Schwartzkopff12/23/2020
It'll be worth about $50k total, we'll share that when the claiming starts
Zir Agape12/23/2020
this discussion has caused me to think more positively of the Balancer pool suggestion
having to stake 50/50 to ICAP and something else in uniswap might be worse than something else in Balancer
but that's a solvable optimization problem, which the community can discuss
I'll stop advocating the ICAP self-staking for now and look into the Balancer suggestion instead...
thanks for the answers and keeping in touch with the community!