acecipher - Yesterday at 11:12 PM
Well, if you're not interested in my case, will you admit that it's possible to be a Marxist and Christian?
Southern Dystopia ★ - Yesterday at 11:12 PM
No, because profit in the capitalist manner is unpaid labor directly in opposition, whereas christianity in its doctrine is not. It is simply used by elite to control.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:12 PM
No
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:13 PM
What if I said that I'm a Marxist, but disagreed on the maters of metaphysics?
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:13 PM
Well it is possible if you don't mind being a walking contradiction.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:13 PM
Would you mind that I take exception to one point of a theory?
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:14 PM
@Southern Dystopia ★ Marx never directly contradicts profit, he just explores the reasons why it is in opposition to the proletariat.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:14 PM
Or must we conform to the very letter of the works we profess to believe in (thusly making anyone calling themselves a Christian more than likely a "contradiction")
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:15 PM
Marx also explores the reasons why religion is in opposition to the proletariat.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:15 PM
@acecipher Then you're not a Marxist.
Southern Dystopia ★ - Yesterday at 11:15 PM
Pretty sure marx explained that profit was unpaid labor
And this was the rejection
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:15 PM
So I have to accept lock, stock and barrel the writings of Marx?
That is what I must do to not be a "contradiction?"
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:15 PM
Marx is Bible 2.0.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:16 PM
Yes, if not then what's the point of being a "marxist" if you reject the principles or Marxism?
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:16 PM
@Southern Dystopia ★ Pretty sure marx explain religion was aristocrat.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:17 PM
Well, because I find him mostly very sensible on all but one thing, and that is metaphysics
Is this one point the "principles" of Marxism I reject?
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:17 PM
@Southern Dystopia ★ You should ask this question on actual Marxist servers.
I know tankies will BTFO you.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:17 PM
Yes
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:17 PM
But like, all the principles of Marxism
Not that Wages = Theft or like Labor Power
But athiesm
That is the principles of Marxism?
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:18 PM
Yes
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:18 PM
That one principle is the Principles?
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:18 PM
Marxism is material Hegelism.
>material
That part is important
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:19 PM
Is that all it is? Did Hegel posit the LTV?
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:19 PM
@acecipher "Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class."
-Lenin
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:20 PM
And you would say that I conform to this, in spite of never having heard my stances that Jesus encourages us to be revolutionaries and encourages violence against wealth?
That my religon is an opiate to my class consciousness?
I could also get some tankies
And their saying on..... one of several lenin things
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:21 PM
@acecipher LTV can be used in some situations. It just didn't;t have the follow on Marx hoped.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:21 PM
I'm not saying you to agree or disagree with Marxism, but don't call yourself Marxist if you reject the cornerstones of Marxism. Don't call yourself a Marxist if you're a Christian, or rather, don't call yourself a Christian if you're a Marxist.
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:23 PM
@acecipher Literally, yes. All Marx did was take Hegellian logic and try to apply it to sociology.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:23 PM
You may call yourself a Christian socialist or whatever, but not Marxist.
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:23 PM
Or 'political economy' as it was called in those day.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:25 PM
You see, Dagger, I can't say you're particularly arguing in particularly good faith here: you keep using these words that are plural over a singular disagreement
I completely disagree with your assertation that I reject the cornerstones of marxism
Mostly because I have a single disagreement
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
I completely disagree with your assertation that I reject the cornerstones of marxism
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:26 PM
And well, if you want to go and start telling everyone that has one or more significant disagreements with someone they can't call themselves that thing, go ahead, but I don't think you'll seem particularly enlightened
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
You reject the cornerstone of Marxism on religion.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
I disagree with Marx on religion.
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
Now we get to it.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
.....
Pierre, are you blind?
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:27 PM
Marx is not Bible 2.0 but lesser prophet.
If you can just handwave one part of Marx, why not the whole lot?
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:28 PM
acecipher - Today at 11:13 PM
What if I said that I'm a Marxist, but disagreed on the maters of metaphysics?
acecipher - Today at 11:17 PM
Well, because I find him mostly very sensible on all but one thing, and that is metaphysics
Because the rest I am in agreement with.
The fact is, I only disagree on one part
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:29 PM
Sorry, when I read metaphysics, I thought you were joking.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
I mean, I enjoy philosophy, so no :v
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
Marx is materialist. And his theories are based on materialism.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
I'm not just going to throw all of that under the bus
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
Just put a leg under!
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
Yes, and with regards to the material they are entirely correct
:stuck_out_tongue:
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
@acecipher At least you agree that Marxism rejects religion. There are other Marxists in here who refuse to accept that.
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
That's true.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
Uh
Dagger
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:30 PM
I give you that.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:31 PM
I still consider myself a Marxist
Marx did not approve of religion, no
Or any metaphysics really
I am not beholden to follow everything he says
Or maybe
I'm a horrible revisionist
And if the tankies shoot me over it, so be it
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:31 PM
That's what I said, Marxism rejects religion, but some Marxists here refuse to accept that.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:31 PM
I shall nonetheless fight for my ideals, and die for them if need be
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
Schizophrenia is the ability to straddle two contradictory reality sets.
Just so you know.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
Lol.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
Seems like a very human thing
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
@acecipher To end this discussion for the night; you agree Marxism rejects religion, yes?
👋1
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:32 PM
Uh
So
Let me clarify one thing
Marx rejects religion
As to whether his entire belief set is predicated upon this
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
Lol.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:33 PM
I disagree with the entirety of my being
If one wishes to make an ultra-orthodox definiton
Then yes
I, however, reject such orthodoxy as being overly-stringent
And not significantly different
Especially in regards to what I consider a Marxist to be
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:35 PM
It's not an ultra-orthodox definition lol. Marx rejected religion, therefore Marxism being the same thing rejects religion, anyone can make such a basic conclusion. Even Lenin did, as I showed earlier.
Unless you want to say Marx and Marxism are different things....Lol
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:37 PM
Well, Marx is a person. Marxism is a philosophy based off of the writings of both himself, and F. Engels.

Not literally everything he said has to be a litmus test.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
Webster definition:
Marxism:
the political, economic, and social principles and policies advocated by Marx; especially : a theory and practice of socialism including the labor theory of value, dialectical materialism, the class struggle, and dictatorship of the proletariat until the establishment of a classless society.
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:38 PM
Can we talk about theology? There's still another half unmolested.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:39 PM
Also, to give another take on Lenin and his views (from a conversation that happened a while back):
"I agree that to combat religion, you need to combat the material forces that propogate it, and that religious people should be accepted into the socialist movement"
[sic] for that propagate
And Pierre: If you wish to talk on why theologically I agree with this, I can give you the long answer (logs of a debate) or the short answer (I believe it's 2 Cor 8:14-15, but need to double check that)
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:40 PM
Marxism is the ideology developed by Karl Marx. Marx, and therefore Marxism, reject religion. Is this clear to you @acecipher ?
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:41 PM
Quite frankly, you are free to not consider me a Marxist, but I will continue considering myself one, and calling myself one.
R.D. - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
what else would you call an ideology that is based on marx just a different interpretation ?
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
That's okay that was not even the point of my last question. I told you; Marxism rejects religion, do you agree on that?
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:42 PM
I disagree with your assertions of the necessity of atheism to the definition given
uh
I already answered that
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
Marxism rejects religion. (What you want to call yourself or what you want to agree with Marx on is beyond my question.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:43 PM
@R.D. Marxism, yeah. I mean, people have had all kinds of different interpretations of his works.
Well, that's not a question, that's a statement by you.
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
I just want to be clear we agree on this basic fact; Marxism rejects religion.
Agreed?
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
I do not agree that, as I define Marxism's materially important characteristics, Religion is among them.
.....
N O
We are in complete disagreement here
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
:rolling_eyes:
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:44 PM
In my above, I mean athiesm when I said religion
Given that it was Marx's views on religion
R.D. - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
language fails us again
😂1
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:45 PM
RD: Not really?
I mean
This is just semantics
And it's pretty worthless to be honest
This has just been a waste of my life :frowning:
Dagger has completely won, in rendering this a completely toxic and unwinnable conversation
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
"I meant atheism when I said religion":joy:
R.D. - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
its just extremely hard communicating when the same words mean such different things to people
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
Hey dagger: Am I the one who somehow cannot interpret what I directly said?
R.D. - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
commonly used definitions only make it harder
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:46 PM
RD:

Uh
So
Let me clarify one thing
Marx rejects religion
As to whether his entire belief set is predicated upon this
DAGGER - Today at 11:33 PM
Lol.
acecipher - Today at 11:33 PM
I disagree with the entirety of my being
If one wishes to make an ultra-orthodox definiton
Then yes
I, however, reject such orthodoxy as being overly-stringent
And not significantly different
Especially in regards to what I consider a Marxist to be
What is unclear there?
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
@R.D. You're a communist, you should know this right? Marxism rejects religion.
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
I do not consider atheism to be a core tenant of Marxism
R.D. - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
im a halfass communist
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:47 PM
;-;
R.D. - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
i think most ideologies are at least 75% bull shit
acecipher - Yesterday at 11:48 PM
Dagger, right now you're going around, asking those who you see wearing red whether by definition, Redism means you can't like Blue, when Red said "Blue is the worst color and no one should like it"
I mean, the word Atheism doesn't even appear in the dictionary definition you posted
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
I think you don't know what Marxism is, that's the problem.
Pierre - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
>Christian
>quotes Paul as an authority
DAGGER - Yesterday at 11:49 PM
I'm going now, take care.