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BestRP Open Source Discussion

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Aug 1st, 2014
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  1. ((The name of who is talking is underneath the text.
  2.  
  3. Purlek
  4. Hello.
  5. Purlek
  6. •
  7. Thu, 8:40 PM
  8. Hi there.
  9. Thu, 8:41 PM
  10. ATT
  11. Purlek
  12. Hi.
  13. So, about this ordeal;
  14. Purlek
  15. •
  16. Thu, 8:41 PM
  17. Yes? I just wish that more SS13 servers were open source. Most are, it's just a shame to see those that aren't. They have so much to gain, and nothing to lose from going open source. And then there is the license issue.
  18. Thu, 8:45 PM
  19. ATT
  20. Purlek
  21. As for the license, I never considered it an issue... The GPL is rather common sense, and I will surely get to crediting the original developers and noting the license.
  22. However, when you say that there's nothing to lose, you're wrong. There have been many occasions where, if our code had been open source, we'd have been ruined... We've had several occurrences where we've had internal conflicts, and people have tried to branch off and steal our code, staff, and community.
  23. Openly releasing the code of our server would do nothing but negatives for our server and our community... Howeeever.
  24. Under special circumstances where someone who's qualified to do so contacts us, I'm sure we can work something out so that you may view it.
  25. However, how am I supposed to trust you with our private code, considering that you're all for distributing it.
  26. I'm not bound to release the code to you for any reason, as I'm given the right to privately modify and use the GPL licensed code.
  27. We are not distributing the source code in any object form, as the players are all running it through BYOND, we are hosting the code, the players are running an entirely different program.
  28. You of all people know this.
  29. Purlek
  30. •
  31. Thu, 8:49 PM
  32. And I disagree with you on that point. Paradise Station is arguably the most popular server, followed by /tg/, /vg/ and you. All the others are opensource, and still remain popular. Paradise shares a great deal of code with all three, and is the most popular server. Arguing that you would be ruined because of it is blatently untrue.
  33. That is a very fine line you are drawing. Yes they are using BYOND, but they are accessing the compiled executable.
  34. Thu, 8:51 PM
  35. ATT
  36. Purlek
  37. You're grossly uninformed of our community and internal works, and your information regarding the doings of other servers holds no significance to me.
  38. Purlek
  39.  
  40. ((At this point, I joined a group chat with the other member of BestRP))
  41.  
  42. Purlek
  43. This thing working?
  44. Purlek
  45. •
  46. Thu, 8:55 PM
  47. Yes
  48. Thu, 8:55 PM
  49. ATT
  50. Purlek
  51. And for you, Alex?
  52. Purlek
  53. •
  54. Thu, 8:56 PM
  55. Alexander
  56. Yes
  57. Hello, got it working.
  58. So what's the big drive to get a copy of our source? The licensing argument is a bit far fetched, though I think it would be best to begin crediting which open source repositories certain parts of the code come form. The hard work those branches put in should be respected.
  59. Alexander
  60. •
  61. Thu, 8:58 PM
  62. I'm just a big champion of the open source movement, especially when it comes to SS13. I feel that everyone stands to gain when more servers are open source.
  63. In addition, being open source allows more people to contribute to the project, and expand it beyond what is possible in a closed source project of this scale.
  64. Thu, 9:00 PM
  65. ATT
  66. Alexander
  67. Open Source is valuable to everyone's interest to further the experience as a whole. I could see BestRP going open source eventually, especially if our dedicated coding staff back the idea. Unfortunately that's not in our best interest right now, nor the interest of our players. While I think that it's important to benefit the entire SS13 community, our time and our resources are focused on our player base first.
  68. And that's only my stance on it, I don't speak for Purlek.
  69. Alexander
  70. •
  71. Thu, 9:03 PM
  72. Can I ask why it isn't in your best interest right now, or your players? I'm afraid I don't know the politics of BestRP all that well.
  73. Thu, 9:04 PM
  74. ATT
  75. Alexander
  76. I feel that we provide one of the most stable role playing servers freely available for people to use. Keeping our code secure and our server proprietary allows us to focus on dealing with the issues that arise in-game with full attention. There are many people who would love to dig through our code to abuse the server as well as copy our code to host their own playground. If we released our source then it would divide our energy into focusing on the troublemakers who will then have the capabiility to continue wrecking havoc after being removed from the game.
  77. Alexander
  78. •
  79. Thu, 9:08 PM
  80. Alexander
  81. I would love for our coding team to have the time and dedication to push this server into the open source realm. I think that would be fantastic, and would certainly provide us with a huge benefit. I don't believe we are in a state that is prepared for that step forward.
  82. Alexander
  83. •
  84. Thu, 9:11 PM
  85. Fair enough. I guess the issue here is just a conflict in how we view the matter. I view the freedom for people to host their own playground, as you put it, as a good thing. In addition, I view the freedom to look through the code to discover little in-game things as a good thing as well. Of course, 99% of the people who play won't look at your code, but the fact that it's there is what matters to me. I like to code dive, to discover random little things and facts. Of course, I like to code as well, but I enjoy finding little things that few people know. The fact of the matter is that not many people are going to look at your code even if you do go open source. And even if they do make their own playgrounds, it's not going to kill the server. It didn't kill Bay when they merged with /tg/ and went open. It didn
  86. Shit. *It didn't kill Para, /vg/, Urist or any other number of servers.
  87. Thu, 9:19 PM
  88. ATT
  89. Alexander
  90. You make a good point.
  91. I too like to go through the code as it not only helps me assist players, but little quirks are fun to find. I really love poking through the Chemistry code for various branches.
  92. Alexander
  93. •
  94. Thu, 9:21 PM
  95. Some could argue that it made them more popular. Much fewer people played on Bay before they went open and merged with /tg/. I played on Bay back then, not many people knew about them. Now they're one of the largest servers, and the most branched by far.
  96. Yeah, some of the unused recipes you can find that nobody knows about are pretty awesome.
  97. Thu, 9:21 PM
  98. ATT
  99. Purlek
  100. ATT,
  101. The thing about Bay... Is that they had an entire source code that they had, that went unnoticed by the public... Therefore, in releasing it, everyone's like "Woah, look at this! It's entirely NEW, and DIFFERENT!" we're just a modification of something that's alreayd gone open source.
  102. Releasing ours wouldn't be similar to releasing a whole new, original, unique source code.
  103. It'd be more like releasing OUR server to people who'd like to duplicate it.
  104. People who want to play around with the code can play with the base Baycode.
  105. Purlek
  106. •
  107. Thu, 9:23 PM
  108. Actually, when they released it, their situation was closer to yours now. They were just a branch of /tg/ at the time, and very close to them too.
  109. Up until last year they were still adding in features that were lost in the merge 3 years ago.
  110. Thu, 9:24 PM
  111. ATT
  112. Purlek
  113. What's your point?
  114. Purlek
  115. •
  116. Thu, 9:26 PM
  117. My point is that releasing it wouldn't kill BestRP, and could even potentially serve to draw more people in, particularly those interested in coding. Being a modification, as you put it, does not mean that people will be disinterested. Rather the opposite with SS13 as time has shown again and again.
  118. Thu, 9:30 PM
  119. ATT
  120. Purlek
  121. You're not one to say that, are you?
  122. Purlek
  123. •
  124. Thu, 9:31 PM
  125. Alexander
  126. I'm curious, what got you interested enough to go through the effort to contact us and anything?
  127. Alexander
  128. •
  129. Thu, 9:31 PM
  130. Purlek
  131. "My point is that releasing it wouldn't kill BestRP" I was referring to this statement.
  132. Purlek
  133. •
  134. Thu, 9:32 PM
  135. No, I don't know your server politics as well as you, and therefore I cannot decide for you. I just believe that the history of SS13 has shown that going open source will not kill a server. Otherwise Paradise would be dead and not the most popular server.
  136.  
  137. What got me interested was the definitive server list someone posted on r/ss13. It showed which servers have a github and which don't, and it got me curious as to why some BS12 branches don't have their source available.
  138. Thu, 9:34 PM
  139. ATT
  140. Purlek
  141. Paradise does not contain very unique features, and they're not popular for releasing their code. They're popular because they can withstand loads of players; most of whom, are players who have been banned from our server, due to our stricter standards of our rules.
  142. Did you know that Paradise was started from administrators from the BestRP community?
  143. Purlek
  144. •
  145. Thu, 9:37 PM
  146. I'm not saying they're popular because they released their code, I'm saying they're popular in spite of it. Para is just one example. /tg/ is another big example, along with BS12, /vg/ and UristMcStation.
  147. Actually, I did not.
  148. Thu, 9:39 PM
  149. ATT
  150. Purlek
  151. Before I owned it, that is.
  152. So what is it that you're getting at, ATT? All I can see in this situation is that you, yourself are interested in getting your own hands on it for whatever reason, but really... You're saying that these communities remained popular IN SPITE of releasing their code, insinuating that it was a risky action that may have easily resulted in the manner that we're describing.
  153. Purlek
  154. •
  155. Thu, 9:41 PM
  156. Alexander
  157. It really is a risky action.
  158. Alexander
  159. •
  160. Thu, 9:42 PM
  161. Purlek
  162. Truly, what motivation do we have to release our code, and potentially be at risk of opponent-related attacks in that sense?
  163. Other than it being "The right thing to do!" in your opinion.
  164. Purlek
  165. •
  166. Thu, 9:42 PM
  167. I'm not insinuating that at all, I phrased it that way because it seemed like you believe that it is a risky move, which it isn't. And I don't want your code for myself, I just want more open source servers for SS13.
  168. Thu, 9:44 PM
  169. ATT
  170. Purlek
  171. So the release of our code would be beneficial to other people interested in hosting/modifying our branch of the code. No shit.
  172. Purlek
  173. •
  174. Thu, 9:45 PM
  175. As for motivation, more contributors is always a plus. Even the move from SVN to Github for /tg/ brought them dozens more contributors than they had.
  176. Thu, 9:45 PM
  177. ATT
  178. Alexander
  179. Well I can tell you the last offshoot group sought to do as much damage as they could. They are currently dying or completely dead now because they have no idea how to get code together, even *with* all the open source repositories. In fact the only thing releasing our code would do is give people like them fuel to be idiots.
  180. However, gaining contributors is an obvious benefit that we could use. The issue is, in my opinion, that we aren't ready internally to make the transition.
  181. Nor is there a willingness right now.
  182. It's simply not gonna happen.
  183. Alexander
  184. •
  185. Thu, 9:46 PM
  186. But I can see I'm not going to change your minds. I understand where you're coming from, it just doesn't make sense to me why someone would not want to be open source.
  187. Fair enough.
  188. Thu, 9:46 PM
  189. ATT
  190. Alexander
  191. It makes sense, but we don't have the pieces in place to make it happen *yet*.
  192. I am really glad it was brought forward, as I hadn't really considered it before.
  193. Alexander
  194. •
  195. Thu, 9:47 PM
  196. Purlek
  197. It might not make sense to you to try and see from our perspective, because perhaps you yourself have never been put under similar circumstances, and you've always been on the 'ask & receive' end of things.
  198. Purlek
  199. •
  200. Thu, 9:47 PM
  201. Alexander
  202. Not that I'm in charge of our code.
  203. Alexander
  204. •
  205. Thu, 9:47 PM
  206. Purlek
  207. But of course, that being said, I know as little about you as you know about our community.
  208. Purlek
  209. •
  210. Thu, 9:48 PM
  211. Actually, I have been put under similar circumstances, and it worked out fine for me, which is why I advocate open source. It's also why I can't understand your resistance.
  212. But you're right, I don't know much about your community.
  213. Thu, 9:51 PM
  214. ATT
  215. Alexander
  216. Well it's getting late for me, and I have to go attend to some errands. It was good to speak with you, ATT. I'll leave you two to continue or finish as you see fit. Cheers, everyone.
  217. Alexander
  218. •
  219. Thu, 9:56 PM
  220. Alexander left the Hangout.
  221. Purlek
  222. I'm assuming that you have no further arguments to make.
  223. Purlek
  224. •
  225. Thu, 9:59 PM
  226. I need to get going as well. I appreciate you both taking the time to talk to me. Cheers, have a good night.
  227. Thu, 9:59 PM
  228. ATT
  229. Purlek
  230. Goodbye, also, please edit your original post on the forums and/or place another message stating that it's been resolved, and that you rest your "case" of an argument.
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