sdd

Congratulations to The Dovahneer for winning the [Gen 7] Hackmons Cup Single Elimination Tournament!
Runner-up: s(C)he(FF)
[01:57:32] @s(C)he(FF): OK
[01:57:40] @s(C)he(FF): WE WILL HAVE A FUN, STRUCTURED DEBATE
[01:58:01] @s(C)he(FF): THE TOPIC: DO IQ TESTS PORTRAY INTELLIGENCE ACCURATELY
[01:58:12] @s(C)he(FF): ill take the affirmative, dovah takes the negative
[01:58:14] %The Dovahneer: that depends entirely on how youd define intelligence
[01:58:26] @s(C)he(FF): i dont give a shit go give ur gay liberal point
[01:58:38] %firelit nights: the concept of intelligence doesn't exist
[01:58:46] @s(C)he(FF): and firelit nights will play the wildcard
[01:58:54] @s(C)he(FF): THIS WILL BE STRUCTURED, dovah has the floor
[01:58:54] @s(C)he(FF): go
[01:59:09] %firelit nights: people will always agree with the person who threatens their worldview least as "the most intelligence"
[01:59:11] %The Dovahneer: if intelligence is defined how easily you can acquire knowledge and understand concepts
[01:59:18] %The Dovahneer: sure
[01:59:25] @s(C)he(FF): precocity, then
[01:59:29] %firelit nights: intelligence doesn't have to be something like "processing power of the brain"
[01:59:35] %firelit nights: or
[01:59:35] %The Dovahneer: but theres quite a bit more to what most people would consider smart
[01:59:42] @s(C)he(FF): precocity is not the same as intelligence
[01:59:43] %firelit nights: "sum of ammassed knowledge in a field"
[01:59:46] @s(C)he(FF): point dovah i must agree
[02:00:18] @s(C)he(FF): however, I would counter
[02:00:40] @s(C)he(FF): precocity lets you amass the knowledge that one would consider intelligence
[02:00:58] @s(C)he(FF): intelligence also is lower on the scale, IMO, than wisdom
[02:01:12] %firelit nights: wisdom doesn't exist
[02:01:16] %firelit nights: there is only power
[02:01:20] %firelit nights: and tribalism
[02:01:24] @s(C)he(FF): spoken like a true machiavellian
[02:01:30] @s(C)he(FF): love it
[02:01:35] @s(C)he(FF): however, wisdom must
[02:01:54] @s(C)he(FF): life skills acquired over time is the most tangible of all of these concepts
[02:02:06] @s(C)he(FF): we all connote wisdom with age
[02:02:12] @s(C)he(FF): clearly, we all have a preconceived notion
[02:02:39] %The Dovahneer: that notion comes from the days where if you were old, you were clearly doing something right
[02:02:43] %firelit nights: I feel like the concept of wisdom is flawed because it's "oriented" towards a goal which aligns with one's values
[02:02:51] %firelit nights: also
[02:02:53] %The Dovahneer: in these days i think that concept is irrelevant
[02:03:09] %The Dovahneer: since you can be a complete idiot and live till youre 90
[02:03:09] @s(C)he(FF): you can google how to catch a fish, but you have to learn how to do it for yourself
[02:03:23] @s(C)he(FF): thats true, but not every old dude is wise
[02:03:27] @s(C)he(FF): but almost every wise dude is old
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[02:03:36] %The Dovahneer: you can be wise and young
[02:03:47] %The Dovahneer: if youve been dealt a shitty hand in life and yet still came out on top
[02:03:54] @s(C)he(FF): yes, but you have to find a way to accrue many life experiences
[02:03:55] @s(C)he(FF): YES
[02:04:03] @s(C)he(FF): dovah that means you and i are polar opposites, and you probably are wiser than I
[02:04:11] @s(C)he(FF): if you grew up with a shit hand
[02:04:12] %firelit nights: a lot of old people have their brows furrowed in disappointment, having been marketed life as kids which eventually they realized was a lie. their "wisdom" amounts to little more than validating life to themselves,
[02:04:14] @s(C)he(FF): you had to learn for yourself
[02:04:14] %firelit nights: "enjoying the little things" and "remembering what's" important to hide from the meaninglessness of their lives
[02:04:16] @s(C)he(FF): e
[02:04:41] @s(C)he(FF): growing up with a shit hand means you have to figure out what works and what doesnt
[02:04:42] %The Dovahneer: ive been sheltered for a lot of my life but ive been broken and fixed so many times i dont think it matters
[02:04:49] @s(C)he(FF): you have to overcome the obstacles
[02:05:04] @s(C)he(FF): the most growing i have ever done as a man was when i was faced with something that doesnt come easy to me
[02:05:10] %firelit nights: there is no such thing as overcoming, "good pain" and "bad pain" are the same
[02:05:42] @s(C)he(FF): firelit nights, a pampered son of a rapper will have to deal with less obstacles than an african immigrant going to college
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[02:06:18] %firelit nights: and yet the immigrant has much more to overcome
[02:06:19] %The Dovahneer: i think 90% of people need to go through the process i mentioned
[02:06:24] %The Dovahneer: being broken and fixing yourself
[02:06:27] %firelit nights: but when he is past all these obstancles
[02:06:36] @s(C)he(FF): the whole concept of a hierarchy of pain has become commonplace in youth culture
[02:06:37] %firelit nights: does he reach relative greatness?
[02:06:44] @s(C)he(FF): thats why the idea of liberalism has so much appeal
[02:06:53] @s(C)he(FF): since we finally are reaching this point where we breach equality
[02:06:58] @s(C)he(FF): but at the same point
[02:07:11] @s(C)he(FF): a hierarchy of obstacles can measure what IQ can't: wisdom
[02:07:19] @s(C)he(FF): relative greatness to what, firelit nights?
[02:07:21] %firelit nights: does the immigrant magically become rich because he overcame the system designed to kill him? he suffers more than the next guy for less result
[02:07:36] @s(C)he(FF): that sounds like the story of Job
[02:07:40] %firelit nights: rapper's kid experiences the same amount of pain, he becomes a legend
[02:07:43] %The Dovahneer: the point is because he survived theses obstacles he understands them
[02:07:46] @s(C)he(FF): but in the end, the immigrant is better prepared for the world ahead of him
[02:07:49] %The Dovahneer: and is able to apply those concepts to other people
[02:07:52] @s(C)he(FF): because he wont be thrown off his course
[02:07:53] %The Dovahneer: or other things
[02:08:22] %firelit nights: what good does that do? he know understand how to work around the system, not to conquer it, meanwhile the rapper's kid's life
[02:08:37] %firelit nights: is merely a competition with peers for fame money security and status
[02:08:39] %The Dovahneer: it hardens ones character
[02:08:42] %firelit nights: and at the end they control the system
[02:09:13] %The Dovahneer: too many people dont know who or what they are because they were never challenged in that way
[02:09:13] @s(C)he(FF): iq can measure precocity and relative intelligence
[02:09:17] @s(C)he(FF): but it cant measure character or wisdom
[02:09:18] %The Dovahneer: they never needed to find themselves
[02:09:36] %firelit nights: having a "hard character" doesn't matter, it's just a way of validating the pain you experienced so that you won't think it's "for nothing", humans are like that they always want to validate stuff
[02:09:41] %The Dovahneer: and end up as worse people because of it
[02:09:58] %firelit nights: it's a horrible feeling when you understand your suffering is for nothing
[02:10:11] @s(C)he(FF): again, have you read the story of Job
[02:10:15] %firelit nights: how do you define "worse"
[02:10:18] @s(C)he(FF): i agree to a point
[02:10:20] %firelit nights: I have read the story of Job
[02:10:24] @s(C)he(FF): if you suffer for nothing, youre a martyr
[02:10:32] @s(C)he(FF): and im areligious, so I don't think thats meaningful
[02:10:34] %The Dovahneer: less wise
[02:10:37] %The Dovahneer: weaker personality wise
[02:10:46] @s(C)he(FF): but if you understand the purpose of that sfufereing, then yeah, i gotta agree with dovah
[02:10:50] %The Dovahneer: easier for people to manipulate
[02:11:01] %The Dovahneer: also theres things only experience teaches you
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[02:11:17] %The Dovahneer: as well theres multiple ways to apply that knowledge
[02:11:21] %firelit nights: rapper's kid orders a hit on african immigrant who overcame obstacles
[02:11:24] %firelit nights: he's gone now
[02:11:39] %The Dovahneer: thats material power
[02:11:43] @s(C)he(FF): but the rappers kid isnt wise enough to realise that he even exists
[02:11:44] %The Dovahneer: which isnt relevant to our discussion
[02:11:45] %firelit nights: now how did that "stronger personality wise" help him in the end?
[02:11:53] %firelit nights: everything is material power
[02:11:56] %firelit nights: intelligence
[02:11:58] %firelit nights: wisdom
[02:12:06] @s(C)he(FF): everything CAN BE USED for material power
[02:12:14] @s(C)he(FF): aristotle was drunk and lived in a barrel
[02:12:19] @s(C)he(FF): he didnt care about material power
[02:12:22] %The Dovahneer: what if the kid used his knowledge to manipulate the rapper in order to break him and mold him as he wants
[02:12:24] %firelit nights: *diogenes
[02:12:24] %The Dovahneer: as a pawn
[02:12:28] @s(C)he(FF): damn
[02:12:32] @s(C)he(FF): it was diogenes
[02:12:37] @s(C)he(FF): many of those greeks did though
[02:13:07] %firelit nights: diogenes the cynic was pretty much alone though, he inspired a batch of Cynics who tried to do as he did
[02:13:13] %firelit nights: but lost his core message
[02:13:38] @s(C)he(FF): honestly, he oversold his idea
[02:13:39] %firelit nights: to the point where later philosophers lament how much of a far cry the cynics they experienced were fromt he original ones
[02:13:51] @s(C)he(FF): i actually do like how socrates had the public street forum
[02:13:58] @s(C)he(FF): the socratic irony. pretending he was dim witted
[02:14:05] @s(C)he(FF): just like we usually do, ALLSTAR YOU DUMBASS
[02:14:17] +Imjustgray: Omg
[02:14:26] %The Dovahneer: pretending to be stupid is one of the smartest things you can do actually
[02:14:29] +Imjustgray: grats firelit nights
[02:14:31] @s(C)he(FF): i totally agree
[02:14:32] %The Dovahneer: people underestimate the stupid
[02:14:35] @s(C)he(FF): i absolutely love socratic irony
[02:14:35] %firelit nights: thanks
[02:14:38] @s(C)he(FF): it is the greatest tool
[02:14:44] %The Dovahneer: and lets you move in unseen ways
[02:14:45] @s(C)he(FF): and the african immigrant?
[02:14:50] @s(C)he(FF): could totally use it
[02:14:51] %The Dovahneer: i do this shit all the time
[02:14:58] @s(C)he(FF): pretending you dont know anything, and then manipulating the pampered
[02:15:01] @s(C)he(FF): thats wisdom!
[02:15:03] @s(C)he(FF): as do i
[02:15:06] +Imjustgray: What if ur actually stupid doe
[02:15:21] %firelit nights: so wisdom lies in playing people
[02:15:23] %The Dovahneer: me understanding these concepts proves im not stupid
[02:15:25] %firelit nights: i can agree
[02:15:29] %The Dovahneer: no its simply an application of it
[02:15:30] @s(C)he(FF): machiavellian
[02:15:33] %The Dovahneer: and an example i thought of
[02:15:37] @s(C)he(FF): firelit nights, please tlel me you have a basic idea of the prince
[02:15:44] %The Dovahneer: a certain kind of wisdom if you will
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[02:15:58] %firelit nights: TBH I only have a vague idea, I've read a lot of Nietzsche though
[02:16:24] %firelit nights: I don't own a copy of the Prince, but I understand what it was for
[02:16:43] %firelit nights: a "guide" if you can't follow what Machiavelli lays out in the Dialogues
[02:16:53] %The Dovahneer: i personally never read too much philosophy but i think about this shit all the time
[02:17:05] @s(C)he(FF): as do i. i don't read a ton of philosophy either
[02:17:19] @s(C)he(FF): but i often find myself subconciously manipulating.
[02:17:25] %The Dovahneer: i think theres value in forging your own path rather than consuming things
[02:17:32] %The Dovahneer: which spell it out for you
[02:17:46] %The Dovahneer: or subscribing to specific ideals
[02:18:02] %The Dovahneer: one should mold ideologies to fit them rather than the other way around
[02:18:03] %firelit nights: so you either accept the reality of other people or make your own reality and force others into it, yeah I can agree
[02:18:06] %The Dovahneer: which is where many people falter
[02:18:06] @s(C)he(FF): i am not a materialist by any means
[02:18:10] %firelit nights: I am
[02:18:12] @s(C)he(FF): i really do love wifi and the internet
[02:18:17] %firelit nights: radically materialist
[02:18:18] @s(C)he(FF): but outside of that, i don't really care
[02:18:25] %firelit nights: people are objects
[02:18:41] @s(C)he(FF): (machiavellian)
[02:18:57] %The Dovahneer: i think "higher" human thought has its roots entirely within primal instinct
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[02:18:58] %firelit nights: (btw I think Machiavelli even makes the point "never have a discernable goal" in The Prince
[02:19:08] %firelit nights: as soon as you believe in something it can be attacked
[02:19:09] @s(C)he(FF): (he does)
[02:19:28] %The Dovahneer: even our social structure is most concerned with ourselves and our immediate comrades
[02:19:32] %firelit nights: ideally you are an amorphous blob of only attacking others' ideologies)
[02:19:46] @s(C)he(FF): humans are. we're selfish being
[02:19:47] @s(C)he(FF): s
[02:20:00] @s(C)he(FF): we inherently want whats best for ourselves
[02:20:02] %The Dovahneer: altruism is an extension of this
[02:20:03] @s(C)he(FF): its why we've made it this far
[02:20:18] %The Dovahneer: we want the biggest friend group because it gives us the most leverage
[02:20:33] %The Dovahneer: so we act kindly to others
[02:20:41] @s(C)he(FF): and the best chance for a possible mate
[02:20:43] @s(C)he(FF): but yeah
[02:21:20] %The Dovahneer: i dont know if this was a concept layed out somewhere else
[02:21:31] %The Dovahneer: but i think theres these social layers
[02:21:32] %The Dovahneer: the self
[02:21:36] %The Dovahneer: the friends/family
[02:21:44] %The Dovahneer: acquaintances
[02:21:49] %The Dovahneer: your city/town
[02:21:54] %The Dovahneer: your state/area
[02:21:56] %The Dovahneer: your country
[02:22:00] %The Dovahneer: and our species
[02:22:11] @s(C)he(FF): thomas malthus
[02:22:16] @s(C)he(FF): did this somewhat
[02:22:17] %The Dovahneer: the farther out you go here the more alien things are
[02:22:26] @s(C)he(FF): yeah
[02:22:28] %The Dovahneer: and the less you care
[02:22:38] @s(C)he(FF): youre tethered to the center
[02:22:42] @s(C)he(FF): its like tetherball
[02:22:46] %The Dovahneer: different people adhere to different layers of this
[02:22:58] %The Dovahneer: some people are loyal to their country and whatever
[02:23:09] %The Dovahneer: others dont give a shit about anyone except themselves
[02:23:15] @s(C)he(FF): people are different
[02:23:19] @s(C)he(FF): i care so much about my city
[02:23:24] @s(C)he(FF): but not much about my state and country
[02:23:48] %The Dovahneer: i also think the reason very few people adhere to the outermost layer
[02:23:56] %The Dovahneer: is because we havent discovered anything beyond it
[02:24:14] %firelit nights: gotta eat
[02:24:14] %The Dovahneer: nothing to go against
[02:24:14] @s(C)he(FF): an alien society would certainly have the potential to bond us as humans
[02:24:19] @s(C)he(FF): thats actually a really interesting idea
[02:24:32] @s(C)he(FF): aliens and their affect on racism
[02:24:33] %firelit nights: https://philosophynow.org/issues/45/The_Last_Messiah just gonna leave this here dudududu
[02:24:35] %The Dovahneer: which is why the lower you go the more people adhere to that layer
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[02:24:40] @s(C)he(FF): exactly
[02:24:43] %The Dovahneer: race should also be on that somewhere
[02:24:47] %The Dovahneer: im not sure where tho
[02:24:49] @s(C)he(FF): its like deep frying something
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[02:24:55] @s(C)he(FF): if i deep fry a donut
[02:24:58] @s(C)he(FF): now theres another layer
[02:25:23] %The Dovahneer: anyway back to what i was saying theres more conflicts the deeper you go on that
[02:25:31] @s(C)he(FF): sure but thats infighting
[02:25:46] %The Dovahneer: which necessitates the need for the grouping in the first place
[02:26:10] %The Dovahneer: think about it how many individual v individual conflicts there are vs city v city
[02:27:08] %The Dovahneer: group vs group as well is where i think most people cut off
[02:27:19] @s(C)he(FF): definitely
[02:27:27] %The Dovahneer: friends/family and maybe acquaintances
[02:27:52] %The Dovahneer: of course its not that simple
[02:27:59] @s(C)he(FF): definitely
[02:28:01] @s(C)he(FF): and whats interesting
[02:28:02] %The Dovahneer: but its a good way to think about it
[02:28:30] @s(C)he(FF): a couple that sees themselves quite often will fight more often, adjusting for time together, than a couple that sees each other every other day or lower
[02:28:51] %The Dovahneer: thats related to peoples concepts of others
[02:28:54] %The Dovahneer: its never complete
[02:29:10] %The Dovahneer: people have idealized concepts of others
[02:29:18] %The Dovahneer: positive or negative
[02:29:37] %The Dovahneer: when people spend too much time together it challenges and erodes these idealized concepts
[02:29:54] %The Dovahneer: which creates conflict and resentment because people dont like that kind of change
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[02:31:43] %The Dovahneer: theres a sweet spot
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[02:31:55] @s(C)he(FF): right
[02:32:11] @s(C)he(FF): but that sweet spot doesnt appear to be as lenient as with a friendship
[02:32:15] @s(C)he(FF): the closer you get
[02:32:20] @s(C)he(FF): the more infighting there does seem to be
[02:32:23] @s(C)he(FF): familys fight
[02:33:07] %The Dovahneer: i think the sweet spot is similar across all kinds of relationships
[02:33:31] %The Dovahneer: its just family is encouraged to be much closer than that sweet spot
[02:33:56] %The Dovahneer: same with relationships
[02:34:05] %The Dovahneer: friendships just happen to naturally reside there
[02:34:46] @s(C)he(FF): idk
[02:34:54] @s(C)he(FF): i just came back from a week in prague with just my best friend
[02:35:11] @s(C)he(FF): and even though we were with eachother for a full week we never fought
[02:35:13] @s(C)he(FF): we never really do
[02:35:31] %The Dovahneer: the sweet spot probably varies between people
[02:35:51] %The Dovahneer: like most concepts people talk about related to the human psyche
[02:36:21] %The Dovahneer: that and if you spend a week with someone and then take a break its not as constant as like
[02:36:24] %The Dovahneer: a relationship is
[02:36:47] %The Dovahneer: romantic relationship i should say
[02:37:07] @s(C)he(FF): romantic relationships have more tension
[02:37:17] @s(C)he(FF): because usually, we're talking about heterosexual relationships
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[02:37:38] %The Dovahneer: because theyre encouraged to be closer
[02:37:43] @s(C)he(FF): and people from heterosexual relationships usually obviously come from different walks of life
[02:38:19] %The Dovahneer: and when peoples idealized selves dont mesh up with aspects of their personality
[02:38:39] %The Dovahneer: it goes a lot worse than a friendship
[02:38:45] %The Dovahneer: because of how close things are
[02:38:54] @s(C)he(FF): right
[02:38:59] %The Dovahneer: idk i feel like im rambling a bit
[02:39:04] @s(C)he(FF): its cool dude
[02:39:08] %The Dovahneer: but theres definitely an idea here
[02:39:10] @s(C)he(FF): we never get the chance to do stuff like this
[02:39:16] @s(C)he(FF): my best friend is a lazy smart asshole from the same city im from
[02:39:38] @s(C)he(FF): my girlfriend is a smart ballerina who is very driven and very self assured
[02:39:57] %The Dovahneer: i mean rambling in the sense that idk how complete it sounds
[02:39:58] @s(C)he(FF): the only common thread is that i usually will only hang out with smart people
[02:40:02] %The Dovahneer: to other people
[02:40:09] @s(C)he(FF): people arent going to fight if they have the same ideas
[02:40:16] @s(C)he(FF): because theres nothing to fight about
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[02:41:41] %The Dovahneer: also everything im talking about applies more to mutual healthy relationships
[02:41:49] @s(C)he(FF): definitely
[02:42:04] %The Dovahneer: its entirely different talking about other kinds
[02:42:13] %The Dovahneer: which i know a lot about too actually
[02:42:34] @s(C)he(FF): im lucky enough not to have many of those
[02:43:08] %The Dovahneer: if i wanted to im confident i could break people if i know enough
[02:43:24] %The Dovahneer: dangerous knowledge here
[02:43:30] @s(C)he(FF): oh i get that
[02:43:41] @s(C)he(FF): but you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar
[02:43:58] %The Dovahneer: that and im not a sociopath
[02:44:07] %The Dovahneer: i dont want to inflict harm on almost anyone
[02:44:09] @s(C)he(FF): fun fact one of my best friends is
[02:44:32] %The Dovahneer: i understand how they operate
[02:44:47] %The Dovahneer: which is something i think people should know
[02:45:02] %The Dovahneer: good self defense mechanism
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[02:50:12] @s(C)he(FF): oh totally
[02:50:19] @s(C)he(FF): you should try to understand how different brains work
[02:50:25] @s(C)he(FF): either for self defense, or for the opposite
[02:50:41] %The Dovahneer: i really think 90% of people function similarly
[02:50:52] %The Dovahneer: its just theres different forces acting on that same process
[02:51:02] %The Dovahneer: emotion past experience etc
[02:51:11] %The Dovahneer: current mental state
[02:51:33] @s(C)he(FF): again though, you do need to factor in the relative selfishness of humans.
[02:51:44] @s(C)he(FF): people are more willing to exploit others for greater rewards
[02:51:44] %The Dovahneer: yeah thats the core process im talking about
[02:51:59] %The Dovahneer: the things rooted in primal instinct
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[02:54:58] @s(C)he(FF): were just intelligent super computers running windows vista
[02:59:13] %The Dovahneer: i dont think our core thought process changed in thousands of years
[02:59:17] %The Dovahneer: just those external forces
[02:59:26] %The Dovahneer: well i say external but its not
[02:59:49] @s(C)he(FF): our core cant be changed but our understanding can
[03:00:01] %The Dovahneer: kinda
[03:00:11] @s(C)he(FF): also i do need to sleep at some point
[03:00:16] @s(C)he(FF): but this was really fun
[03:00:17] %The Dovahneer: same LOL
[03:00:23] @s(C)he(FF): we should do this again at somepoint
[03:00:31] %The Dovahneer: yeah i dont get to talk intelligently enough
[03:00:51] %The Dovahneer: and its interesting to hear peoples thoughts