#aos.ops Oct 18 2012

[15:45] * sniped ([email protected]) has joined #aos.ops
[15:46] <danhezee> hi
[15:47] <@TheGrandmaster> well hello
[15:50] <sniped> heya
[15:50] <sniped> is both stack and dan here?
[15:50] <danhezee> I am here to at least read
[15:51] <sniped> stack are you about too
[15:51] <danhezee> not sure If I'll be able debate
[15:51] <@StackOverflow> maybe
[15:51] <sniped> cool, right, I'm going to be brutally honest with you two and I want you to think about what I am about to say
[15:52] <danhezee> fair enough just do the same for us
[15:54] <sniped> The responses in sally's thread is only going to have one outcome, and that is to upset the community. i would strongly suggest that you think about retracting those statements and starting to come onside. The impact you are going to have is not on us it will be the community. That is the harm you are causing, to the community. If you want to continue within your current vein, you may, but just be aware of the impact you are having.
[15:54] <@StackOverflow> k
[15:55] <danhezee> well I am willing to retracting my comments but I need you to give me somehting to work with
[15:56] <sniped> such as
[15:56] <danhezee> you need to find the time to answer our questions and concerns
[15:56] <@StackOverflow> maybe you should re-read my post and realize it wasn't some sort of jab
[15:56] <@TheGrandmaster> I have some as well
[15:56] <@StackOverflow> but legitimate concerns that myself and others have
[15:56] <sniped> what are the concerns
[15:57] <@StackOverflow> how about you read the post
[15:57] <sniped> summarise it for me
[15:57] <@StackOverflow> no
[15:57] <@StackOverflow> read it
[15:58] <@StackOverflow> it's summarized enough as it is
[15:58] <danhezee> What are the names of the six projects sally has worked on in the past 5 years and what the projects you have worked on in your time with jagex
[15:58] <sniped> why do you want to know that?
[15:59] <danhezee> where are these communities that survived jagex pulling the plug
[15:59] <sniped> yeah, but why. This isn't about Sally, or ex communities, I want to find out your real question and concerns here
[16:00] <danhezee> My gut feeling is jagex is going to pull the plug and drop support, I just want to see if there are examples we can learn from
[16:00] <sniped> that's not going to happen Dan
[16:00] <@StackOverflow> pathetic
[16:00] <danhezee> that is lie
[16:00] <danhezee> you know it
[16:00] <danhezee> you work for jagex
[16:00] <sniped> in that case I know how much money we have invested in this, the development plan, the long term goals and targets.
[16:01] <sniped> If you don't beleive then there is nothing I can do. But I am telling you the truth
[16:01] <danhezee> How can you give us any peace of mind that either jagex wont drop support or you two know what you are doing?
[16:01] <@StackOverflow> they can't
[16:01] <@StackOverflow> "we have experience"
[16:01] <@StackOverflow> can you show us?
[16:01] <@StackOverflow> "no"
[16:01] <@StackOverflow> k
[16:02] <sniped> exactly,  we can't give you peace of mind, but that is no reason to make the rest of the community feel the same way
[16:02] <danhezee> sniped you know that jagex has spent more money on other projects and dropped them
[16:02] <danhezee> I am sure they had long term goals as well
[16:03] <sniped> yup, and we have spent less on others which we haven't dropped
[16:03] <danhezee> examples?
[16:03] <sniped> it is about the quality of the game, and we all know that it is good
[16:03] <@TheGrandmaster> also from the conversation from Sally I had today, it seems you value your experience enough that you'd rather work on your 'infrastructure' and plans on your own rather than working on them alongside those who have been leading the community and advancing it for a year and a half
[16:04] <danhezee> opengl is of lower quality than voxlap in my opinion, it is prettier though
[16:04] <@StackOverflow> protip: all this is falling on deaf ears
[16:04] <sniped> i was part of that conversation too Grandy. The important thing to realise is that your experience helps us make our decisions. But the decisions are ours
[16:05] <@StackOverflow> yes sir
[16:05] <danhezee> how can it we arent involved
[16:05] <danhezee> experience we never refer too
[16:05] <danhezee> ^ that is what you are saying
[16:05] <sniped> you are, we get your ideas and thoughts and factor them into our feedback
[16:05] <danhezee> when
[16:05] <@StackOverflow> who else do you get "feedback" from
[16:05] <@StackOverflow> I'm curious
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> don't say "the community"
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> and facebook doesn't count
[16:06] <sniped> we get it from you, and the rest of the community
[16:06] <danhezee> only once I can think of
[16:06] <sniped> and facebook does count
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> no it does't
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> quit deluding yourself
[16:06] <sniped> the community is everywhere not just on these forums
[16:06] <sniped> or in this irc
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> right
[16:06] <danhezee> the community would be the players
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> well then
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> if you actually looked at the fb, you'd see people complaining
[16:06] <@StackOverflow> gg
[16:07] <danhezee> and no number of active players vs someone that pressed like is low
[16:07] <sniped> we see people complaining, we see people happy
[16:07] <danhezee> very low
[16:07] <@StackOverflow> mostly complaining
[16:07] <sniped> complaining is very important feedback and we welcome it
[16:07] <danhezee> any back on track
[16:07] <@TheGrandmaster> open up facebook.. first comment I see.. " Dam it I'm in school".. second.. "hi all... why cant i open the website???? ;(" third.. "can we talk on the game?" (unrelated to the post it was commenting on)
[16:08] <sniped> that is what facebook is Grandy
[16:08] <danhezee> besides the august feedback, when have you formally gotten feedback from us
[16:08] <danhezee> maybe that is the issue nothing seems to be formal
[16:08] <sniped> when the forums are down, that is where everyone will go
[16:08] <@StackOverflow> nope
[16:08] <@StackOverflow> "everyone"
[16:08] <@StackOverflow> u so funny ;D
[16:09] <@TheGrandmaster> do you really need community feedback to know people hate it when the entire community (minus mumble irc and the wiki) dissapears for days, two weeks in a row pretty much?
[16:09] <@TheGrandmaster> sure, facebook is an announcement platform
[16:09] <@TheGrandmaster> but not feedback..
[16:09] <sniped> we disagree Grandy, Facebook can be used for many many things
[16:09] <danhezee> well that is why I think you guys will fail ^
[16:10] <@TheGrandmaster> ok I'll keep looking until I see a post of constructive/valuable feedback
[16:10] <danhezee> it is like you are obvious to our community
[16:10] <sniped> well, you are entitled to your opinions Dan, but we disagree
[16:11] <sniped> I'll be honest with you Dan, but what we are hearing from the community is different to what you guys are purveying to us
[16:11] <@StackOverflow> community == facebook
[16:11] <@StackOverflow> amirite
[16:11] <danhezee> going by track record and attitude you wont do anything but fail at AoS
[16:11] <danhezee> what are you hearing from the community?
[16:12] <sniped> community is every player everywhere, not just facebook, youtube, twitter, forums, irc, mumble, everywhere
[16:12] <@StackOverflow> this is a waste of time, you can talk to people who are too self-absorbed in their own ways of doing things
[16:12] <@StackOverflow> can't*
[16:12] <sniped> well, you can go and do something else Stack
[16:12] <@StackOverflow> I am ;)
[16:12] <danhezee> we are
[16:12] <sniped> good stuff
[16:12] <@TheGrandmaster> ok I've been looking since I last posted, nuthin'. The only 'feedback' is that they like events
[16:12] <@TheGrandmaster> that's about as much as I can gather from the comments
[16:13] <@StackOverflow> sniped, you're too clueless to have the slightest idea of what we're doing
[16:13] <sniped> kk stack, well come back in 6 months and I'll accept your apology
[16:13] <danhezee> lol
[16:13] <@StackOverflow> u r 2 cute
[16:14] <danhezee> I do hope that you guys can acheive what you want to achieve with ace
[16:15] <danhezee> I know the community is everywhere, but I would have thought professionals would focus on the highest concentractions of community and branch outward
[16:16] <@StackOverflow> danhezee, you will be apologizing in 6 months for your insubordination
[16:16] <sniped> there is lots of feedback you can gather Grandy, I look at the community and I see loads of players that want updates and more weapons and more maps. Clans that want to fight each other. but, the community is worried because we haven't been talking to them and rightly so. That is what we have started today and the two comments you made did next to nothing to help the community stop being worried
[16:16] <danhezee> Not the lowest concentration that gives the best meaningless stats that they openly admit they dont understant
[16:16] <@StackOverflow> all about dem numbers
[16:16] <@StackOverflow> screw proper analytics
[16:16] <@StackOverflow> facebook is good enough
[16:17] <sniped> okay guys, how do you measure the highest concentration?
[16:17] <danhezee> sniped "there is lots of feedback you can gather Grandy, I look at the community and I see loads of players that want updates and more weapons and more maps. Clans that want to fight each other. but, the community is worried because we haven't been talking to them and rightly so."  I agree
[16:17] <danhezee> I dont know where 100 percent of the people you are address are active
[16:18] <danhezee> addressing*
[16:18] <sniped> okidoki, but how are you measuring the highest concentration of players?
[16:18] <@TheGrandmaster> we can't affect those ingame
[16:18] * SallyTheButcher ([email protected]) has joined #aos.ops
[16:18] <@TheGrandmaster> the people in the servers we cannot reach
[16:19] <@StackOverflow> well I probably have more client side analytics of this community than anybody
[16:19] <sniped> okidoki, but how are you measuring it?
[16:19] <@StackOverflow> server side is a bit harder
[16:19] <danhezee> sniped better question are you trying to figure that out?
[16:19] <sniped> sweet stack. Have you sent them to us?
[16:19] <@StackOverflow> maybe in 6 months
[16:19] <@StackOverflow> after my apology
[16:20] <@TheGrandmaster> I have a feeling I know where sniped is going with this
[16:20] <sniped> okay, and that is exactly the attitude that doesn't help. Blocking something that will help the community
[16:20] <@TheGrandmaster> 'facebook has most people'
[16:20] <sniped> why do you think that is helpful stack?
[16:21] <danhezee> 40K likes over the lifetime of the page, that number cant help but get bigger.  If you arent doing it you  need some kind of control a set time period and compare time period to time period
[16:21] <sniped> we are trying to focus on the community and we hope everyone here in this room has the same objective
[16:22] <sniped> if you don't then you have to ask yourself why you are here
[16:22] <danhezee> why are you here...... you were assigned
[16:22] <danhezee> me I wasnt assigned
[16:22] <danhezee> volunteered
[16:23] <sniped> that's nice, but you are lucky to have two people as passionate as Sally and I on this
[16:23] <sniped> if we didn't care, I wouldn't be here
[16:23] <@StackOverflow> <3
[16:24] <sniped> If you really want to help ace you need to get over the fact that this is now a commercial product and we are here. We are not your enemy
[16:25] <@TheGrandmaster> we're aware that it's going commercial
[16:25] <sniped> as for facebook
[16:25] <sniped> don't get hung up on likes, that isn't the important figure
[16:25] <@TheGrandmaster> facebook is a tool, sure. but saying it has meaningful feedback..
[16:25] <@StackOverflow> the fact that you think the collective issue is that the game's commercialized just shows how out of tune you are
[16:25] <@StackOverflow> I think you're just being funny :)
[16:25] <sniped> it is what the likers do, that is the key metric
[16:25] <danhezee> and since we like to brag about education, guess what I have one.  A computer science degree with a concentration in entrepruership and some course work toward a MBA.  That is a Master's in Business Administration
[16:27] <sniped> that's nice Dan, I have no qualifications, and I don't honestly care whether you are Bill Gates. But one thing we are good at is delivering communities, Whether or not you guys want to be involved. we are going to deliver a bloody good one
[16:27] <danhezee> examples?
[16:28] <sniped> i'd love you all to be a part of it, but that is a decision each of you has to make yourselves
[16:31] <sniped> here's a question, how do you measure a good community? What does a good community look like to you?
[16:31] <@StackOverflow> facebook likes
[16:31] <@StackOverflow> like whoring images
[16:31] <danhezee> sniped give a minute to think about it
[16:32] <@StackOverflow> did I mention facebook?
[16:32] <sniped> if you want to be helpful stack, please do, if not, just sit on  your hands
[16:32] <@StackOverflow> I'm being helpful
[16:32] <@StackOverflow> I would never lie to you, sir
[16:33] <sniped> I should be playing the new lotro update tbh
[16:35] <danhezee> I would consider a good community as one that promotes openess and honesty.  Those are intangibles so they will be hard to measure.  Also I community where players are excited about it they are actively talking about it in a positive way outside of the higher concentrations of community members
[16:35] <@TheGrandmaster> something we used to have
[16:35] <@izzy-> a good community can't be accurately measured, that's why jagex doesn't understand the value of what we had/partly still have
[16:36] <sniped> okay, the second part is good, how do you make a community excited?
[16:36] <danhezee> I would say that would come from openness
[16:36] <danhezee> hey we are planning this and wanting to do that... that would generate buzz
[16:37] <@TheGrandmaster> have an update to talk about, suggestions for things
[16:37] <@StackOverflow> what is an update
[16:37] <@TheGrandmaster> it's that thing we had ab- ...
[16:37] <@TheGrandmaster> nvm
[16:38] <danhezee> sniped and SallyTheButcher "The reason for this is that every piece of information, including Jagex’s involvement with AoS, is going to be needed to get AoS the recognition it deserves in one big bang"
[16:39] <danhezee> ^ I think you want to do that more so to cover up the anti-jagex sentiment
[16:39] <sniped> that's great Dan, now, what do you think our post today was to achieve?
[16:39] <danhezee> I think you should pace yourself
[16:39] <@StackOverflow> >implying the post achieved anything
[16:39] <danhezee> I do like that you made a post to the community
[16:40] * Yourself ([email protected]) has joined #aos.ops
[16:40] <danhezee> it is start in the right direction but it still didnt say much
[16:41] <sniped> [21:40] <sniped> that's great Dan, now, what do you think our post today was to achieve?
[16:41] <sniped> okay, but what do think we wanted to achieve with it
[16:41] <sniped> bearing in mind it was completely honest without any marketing/pr bs
[16:42] <@StackOverflow> well that's a bit subjective :P
[16:42] <danhezee> opium of the masses, trying to came down the people. reassure them without going providing much substance
[16:43] <@izzy-> i feel it was more an attempt to calm us, the staff
[16:44] <sniped> that's interesting Izzy, why do you say that?
[16:44] <sniped> okidoki, why are we trying to reassure them Dan?
[16:46] <@izzy-> because of the heat you say you've been feeling from us and your upset toward dan and stack for not following "happy happy joy joy" suit
[16:46] <@izzy-> you're still trying to present an image to them asses
[16:46] <danhezee> If you have a community full of anti-jagex sentiments I am sure it affects your relations with your boss and company
[16:46] <@izzy-> haha masses
[16:46] <@izzy-> not asses
[16:46] <@TheGrandmaster> haha
[16:47] <@StackOverflow> and finally the truth comes out
[16:47] <sniped> i'm not worried about heat, I am worried about how what they say impacts the community. You have to decide why that is important to me.
[16:47] <sniped> Not at all Dan. Try it again
[16:48] <danhezee> enlighten me
[16:49] <sniped> it's for exactly the reason you said, so we can start making them excited
[16:49] <danhezee> why not give substance then
[16:49] <danhezee> why not work with us to learn what counts as substance
[16:50] <sniped> because that all needs to go out at once as explained in the post. What I want you to do is to put yourself into the shoes of a normal player and tell me what you think they would feel if they read our post.
[16:50] <danhezee> btw, kudos for mentioning mumble on FB.  I consider that meaningful FB engagement
[16:51] <danhezee> what message are you trying to get lost in the noise of releasing all info at once?
[16:51] <@StackOverflow> haven't seen anybody new on the mumble
[16:51] <danhezee> No new from FB for the babel event either but that is besides the point
[16:52] <sniped> it's a marketing/pr thing. They are experts on creating noise, they will do it well. But, tell me how you think a normal player will feel reading that post?
[16:52] <danhezee> shouldnt you stage so you have some kind of cycle of news and development?
[16:53] <sniped> things like that may all be to follow, but tell me how you think a normal player will feel reading that post
[16:53] <danhezee> well let me quote some comments from the announcement
[16:53] <danhezee> before stack's comments
[16:54] <sniped> nope, I've seen them. I want to know what you think a normal player will feel
[16:54] <danhezee> "Well, one thing you guys will need to start off with is listening to the community." - normal player Frosty
[16:55] <danhezee> "I have one thing to say: If you are going to start answering questions about AoS development in the future, you should stop pretending that you're going to answer them now." - normal player MKU
[16:55] <sniped> I think we can all agree that Frosty is anything but normal
[16:55] <danhezee> why
[16:55] <danhezee> he holds no title
[16:55] <danhezee> just a fan
[16:55] <@StackOverflow> because he submitted a video for the competition
[16:55] <@StackOverflow> that sally didn't l ike
[16:56] <@StackOverflow> maybe it's because the video had stuff about "drug taking"
[16:56] <sniped> Frosty has his own agenda there. But MKU's is an interesting one. What do you think he is feeling
[16:56] <@StackOverflow> what is frosty's "agenda"
[16:57] <@StackOverflow> I'm not saying I agree with some stuff he does, but to dismiss his comment(s) entirely is a bit stupid
[16:57] <danhezee> well I disagree with your analysis of Frosty
[16:57] <sniped> none of your beeswax. What do you think MKU is feeling
[16:57] <@StackOverflow> gg no answer
[16:57] <@StackOverflow> as usual
[16:58] <danhezee> ok on 3 you answer that question too
[16:58] <danhezee> 1
[16:58] <danhezee> 2
[16:58] <danhezee> 3
[16:58] <@StackOverflow> none of your beeswax dan - kid from the 90's
[16:58] <danhezee> he doesnt think you guys are answering questions and doesnt trust you to start doing so anytime soon
[16:59] <sniped> I think MKU is feeling hopeful that we will answer his development questions in the future, although he doesn't want to beleive it
[16:59] <danhezee> to be fair sniped was a kid from the 90's
[16:59] <@StackOverflow> lol
[16:59] <sniped> 80's kid tbh
[16:59] <@StackOverflow> I literally just lol'd
[16:59] <sniped> okay, we are close there Dan
[16:59] <danhezee> well besides the hopeful part
[17:00] <@StackOverflow> talking to mku now
[17:00] <@StackOverflow> let's find out
[17:00] <sniped> right, so do you think yours and stacks comments will help him feel better or worse than he felt posting that
[17:00] <danhezee> survey
[17:01] <sniped> what people say, and what they feel are not the same thing
[17:01] <danhezee> what do you think I feel about jagex involvement?
[17:03] <sniped> I think you are very difficult to read Dan due to your history. I think you don't trust us and that is your strongest feeling. But tell me whether MKU would feel better or worse?
[17:03] <@StackOverflow> ". What do you think MKU is feeling"
[17:03] <@StackOverflow> [17:01] <sniped> what people say, and what they feel are not the same thing
[17:03] <@StackOverflow> oh you
[17:04] <sniped> I think there would be no reasonable person who would disagree
[17:05] <@izzy-> that entirely depends on the individual
[17:05] <sniped> i've nearly ran out of wine
[17:05] <@StackOverflow> well that explains a lot
[17:05] <@izzy-> some people are better at communicating their feelings than others
[17:05] <@izzy-> i'm sober
[17:05] <sniped> i don't think it does really izzy
[17:05] <@StackOverflow> no wonder nothing you said tonight made sense ;)
[17:05] <danhezee> Like I said I think overall it is better to be open and honest with the community,  even if my honest opinion can be slightly negative.  That doesnt mean my opinion cant change
[17:05] <@izzy-> dang sniped we are very different people then
[17:06] <@StackOverflow> I need to go get some alcohol to attempt to make sense of some of this
[17:06] <@StackOverflow> all out :(
[17:06] <sniped> that is true izzy, but I bet there are very few people, if any, that are truly pen about their feelings
[17:06] <@izzy-> i see people as individuals
[17:06] <@StackOverflow> yes
[17:06] <@StackOverflow> truly pen
[17:07] <danhezee> I am sober at work
[17:07] <@StackOverflow> you aren't doing it right dan
[17:07] <sniped> anyway, don't get me off topic, do you think yours and stacks comments made MKU feel better or worser
[17:07] <@izzy-> no on is truly pen, some are able to communicate their feelings more accurately than others, though
[17:08] <@StackOverflow> I'm laughing too hard at this, idkw hy
[17:08] <sniped> oh, I'm not at work. I finished over 4 hours ago
[17:08] <sniped> [22:08] <sniped> anyway, don't get me off topic, do you think yours and stacks comments made MKU feel better or wors
[17:09] <danhezee> well now that I have answer you want from me you see how I feel when you dodge my questions
[17:09] <danhezee> answers*
[17:10] <Yourself> I'm not a "community leader", but for what its worth, I agree that it is better to be honest with the community
[17:10] <sniped> In that case, I believe my point has been truly made.
[17:10] <@TheGrandmaster> MKU says that stack's comment made him feel hopeful that one person, the better of the staff oppose the presence
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> uhh
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> wat
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> [17:10] <sniped> In that case, I believe my point has been truly made
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> wat
[17:10] <danhezee> also, at any time I could ask MKU how he feels because I am part of the community
[17:10] <@TheGrandmaster> we just did xD
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> we just asked him in mumble
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> lol
[17:10] <@StackOverflow> well, tgm did
[17:11] <danhezee> what port is mumble?
[17:11] <sniped> so you ganged up on him?
[17:11] <@StackOverflow> 64738
[17:11] <@StackOverflow> no
[17:11] <danhezee> No need to ask frosty though he doesnt count
[17:11] <@StackOverflow> try to put some sort of bias as much as you want
[17:11] <danhezee> so tgm you have that port opened at school?
[17:11] <@StackOverflow> your point was proven wrong
[17:12] <sniped> how so?
[17:12] <@StackOverflow> come back tomorrow, less booze, more open minded
[17:12] <@StackOverflow> maybe then you'll understand
[17:12] <sniped> how so?
[17:13] <@StackOverflow> I'll tell you when you're ready
[17:13] <sniped> i said it before stack, if you have nothing useful to add, please sit on your hands
[17:13] <danhezee> If MKU feels worse after my comments that is because he trust me and my opinions.  The thing that needs to be changed is my opinion and there is a reasonable path to take to change it
[17:13] <@StackOverflow> [17:11] <sniped> so you ganged up on him?
[17:13] <@StackOverflow> you were proven wrong
[17:13] <@StackOverflow> we asked him
[17:13] <@TheGrandmaster> and the rest of the mumble agreed with his answer
[17:13] <@StackOverflow> no, we obviously ganged up on him
[17:14] <@StackOverflow> sniped, you really need to get your head out of your ass
[17:14] <sniped> how many people were in that server?
[17:14] <@TheGrandmaster> 5 currently
[17:14] <@TheGrandmaster> was around 7
[17:14] <danhezee> I am not going to lie and loose the trust I have earned over the history of AoS for Jagex
[17:14] <sniped> i'm not quite flexible enough for that stack
[17:14] <@StackOverflow> you don't seem flexible at all :P
[17:15] <danhezee> ummmmm did this just get homoeroctic or it is just me
[17:15] <@StackOverflow> not sure
[17:16] <sniped> we seem to be getting distracted, can you invite MKU in here?
[17:16] <@StackOverflow> wat
[17:16] <@StackOverflow> interrogation?
[17:16] <@StackOverflow> how about you go on mumble
[17:16] <sniped> how can it be an interrigation, he is among friends
[17:16] <danhezee> sniped I realized you are in a position to put jagex before the community, and there is very little you can do about it, but that doesnt mean I have too
[17:17] <danhezee> we would have to change the key though
[17:17] <@TheGrandmaster> we could drop the key
[17:17] <sniped> now that is interesting, Dan, why should I put jagex before the community?
[17:17] * TheGrandmaster sets mode: -k **************
[17:17] <danhezee> and get flooded
[17:17] * MKU ([email protected]) has joined #aos.ops
[17:18] <@TheGrandmaster> welcome :D
[17:18] <danhezee> lets see you work for jagex they feed your family
[17:18] <MKU> oh yeah, we have a corkboard! Nostalgia \o/
[17:18] <MKU> oh god..
[17:18] <sniped> hey MKU, thanks for coming in
[17:18] <MKU> Sure thing.
[17:18] <danhezee> why would any one thing you would put the community before your company that pays you
[17:18] <danhezee> think*
[17:19] <sniped> okay, Dan so why would Jagex put themselves before the community?
[17:19] <sniped> any MKU, I was interested to know why stack's comment made you feel the way you did
[17:20] <sniped> feel free to be as candid as you like
[17:20] <MKU> Well, is that implying you know how I feel already?
[17:20] <sniped> these chaps told me what you said in mumble
[17:20] <MKU> Ah yes.
[17:21] <danhezee> well I interpret "hey we are experts" "We have experience" and so forth as putting the company before the company.  Especially when asked for examples you bail on us
[17:21] <danhezee> MKU commented before stack
[17:22] <danhezee> I think the real question is how did MKU's comment make StackOverflow feel
[17:23] <@StackOverflow> I'm being directed to a therapist for it
[17:23] <danhezee> My outlook is this if you bail on us on simple questions, your company will bail on us
[17:24] <sniped> if you'd prefer to PM MKU, you are more than welcome to
[17:24] <@StackOverflow> seem sally already pm'ed him ;)
[17:24] <@StackOverflow> because that's professional
[17:25] <danhezee> coaching
[17:25] <@StackOverflow> puu.sh/1gdmg
[17:25] <@StackOverflow> http://puu.sh/1gdmg
[17:25] <sniped> huh?
[17:25] <@StackOverflow> maybe you should try harder
[17:25] <@StackOverflow> stop dragging individuals into this
[17:26] <@StackOverflow> it's pathetic
[17:27] <danhezee> so sniped can you candidly explain how sally got assigned to AoS
[17:27] <@StackOverflow> "you guys are passing your bias onto the users"
[17:27] <@StackOverflow> yet you do that very blatantly
[17:27] <SallyTheButcher> I often have conversations with individuals on PM I think they matter
[17:27] <sniped> hang on, stack so you are saying we shouldn't talk to individuals?
[17:27] <@StackOverflow> no
[17:28] <@StackOverflow> but that first sentence
[17:28] <@StackOverflow> is pure bias
[17:28] <danhezee> I am saying you shouldnt vilianify stack or I
[17:28] <sniped> how so?
[17:28] <@StackOverflow> you're essentially talking down to them and pushign your opinions on them
[17:28] <danhezee> read the image from the push link
[17:28] <SallyTheButcher> It's what you just told us? It wasn't my intention I thought it fact
[17:28] <danhezee> that is vilifying
[17:28] <@StackOverflow> that's completely unprofessional
[17:29] <SallyTheButcher> just trying to link up the conversation and respond to concerns
[17:30] <MKU> SallyTheButcher: I am sorry to hear that Stack & Dan's posts on the thread I posted made you feel 'hopeful that one person, the better of the staff oppose the presence'
[17:30] <MKU> Why would you feel sorry for a positive attitude?
[17:30] <danhezee> I am sorry to hear that future comments by stack and Dan after you made your comments somehow affected your comments from the past
[17:31] <danhezee> MKU didnt have these concerns; sniped is the one with the concerns
[17:31] <MKU> Also, I have no idea how I was dragged into this for advice I gave to you, SallyTheButcher.
[17:32] <sniped> what do you feel positve about MKU?
[17:32] <danhezee> I mentioned your comments and frosty's comments as normal players of Ace
[17:32] <danhezee> Frosty doesnt count as a normal player apparently
[17:32] <SallyTheButcher> I'm confused maybe I misinterpretted the comment?
[17:32] <sniped> If we want to contact any individual about anything, we will. it would be remiss of us if we didn't
[17:33] <@StackOverflow> [17:32] <sniped> If we want to contact any individual about anything, we will. it would be remiss of us if we didn't
[17:33] <danhezee> So we got into a long discussion of how the comments stack and I made after yours effected you
[17:33] <@StackOverflow> one thing
[17:33] <@StackOverflow> you aren't doing this just to gather input from community members
[17:33] <@StackOverflow> you're bringing them into a negative environment
[17:33] <@StackOverflow> that's unprofessional
[17:33] <MKU> Here's the thing. My comment, as dan said, was WAY before Stack and dan posted their comments. My opinions of them and their views aren't based on those comments alone, my opinion is based on the fact that they support what the community supports.
[17:33] <danhezee> anyway MKU welcome to our world
[17:33] <@StackOverflow> this isn't some sort of smear compaign
[17:33] <MKU> danhezee: The world of RedBull?
[17:34] <sniped> what does the community support MKU?
[17:34] <MKU> The community supports what Jagex doesn't.
[17:34] <MKU> A community ran by a community.
[17:34] <Yourself> ^
[17:35] <sniped> what do you think we support?
[17:35] <MKU> What ever you are payed to support.
[17:35] <MKU> payed for*
[17:35] <sniped> okay, what do you think Jagex supports?
[17:35] <MKU> What ever you are payed to support.
[17:36] <sniped> what do you think Jagex pays me to support
[17:36] <danhezee> corporate interest? the bottom line?
[17:36] <MKU> Jagex, from the looks of it, are secretive of what they do.
[17:36] <sniped> Dan, let MKU speak his mind
[17:36] <MKU> The community, for over a year, and been ran by members of the community without issue or flaw.
[17:36] <sniped> but what do you think that is MKU
[17:36] <danhezee> Oh I thought it was an open question for anyone reading
[17:37] <MKU> When Jagex started to get involved with the community is what worried me.
[17:37] <sniped> why?
[17:37] <sniped> what do you think we will do?
[17:37] <danhezee> http://puu.sh/1gdmg  <- that
[17:38] <sniped> dan ¬.¬
[17:38] <danhezee> vilify those who dont say happy happy joy joy
[17:38] <danhezee> wait I am going to figurre out if I am spelling that correctly
[17:38] <danhezee> brb
[17:38] <sniped> what I am trying to understand MKU is why you think we are bad,
[17:39] <danhezee> didnt he answer that?
[17:39] <@StackOverflow> not in an appeasing way
[17:39] <MKU> mIRC wasn't letting me type, lol.
[17:39] <sniped> ah, I have that problem sometimes
[17:40] <sniped> perhaps a better way to think of it is to say what you want AoS to become
[17:40] <danhezee> 0_o
[17:40] <MKU> What I want it to become?
[17:40] <MKU> I want it to be Jagex free.
[17:40] <MKU> Plain and simple/
[17:40] <danhezee> sniped maybe you can talk to the higher ups about letting ben buy it back
[17:40] <MKU> Why? Because Jagex is using Ace of Spades as their slave game.
[17:41] <sniped> okay, forget about jagex, what do you want it be. I asked the same thing to Dan, what does a good community look like
[17:41] <sniped> slave game?
[17:42] <MKU> Yes, you are payed to handle a game a certain way, but you aren't payed how you would do it.
[17:42] <sniped> i don't quite understand what you mean by you paid how you would do it?
[17:43] <MKU> -.-
[17:44] <MKU> I will digress from that point and let you think about it.
[17:44] <danhezee> Can I interpret what I think MKU means by a slave game?
[17:44] <MKU> Yes. Dan feel free to add anything.
[17:45] <MKU> You aren't offending me.
[17:45] <Yourself> Jagex would put what makes more money first before the good of the community
[17:45] <sniped> perhaps the really important question is what that 'certain way' is. Do you think it is the important question?
[17:46] <MKU> Sniped, the question of how you would do it isn't a question meant for anyone but your people.
[17:46] <sniped> okay then, answer that question for me.
[17:46] <MKU> How?
[17:46] <sniped> How do you figure that Yourself?
[17:47] <Yourself> Because of what has happened so far already
[17:47] <sniped> perhaps I should've read your question properly, if you could answer that question how would you answer it
[17:48] <sniped> how do you figure that Yourself?
[17:48] <danhezee> what yourself said.  What was once a free spirit fun loving game was tricked into corporate shackles that dont care the game when cut or add features just for a quick money grab.  Or wont release a release candidate just because it doesnt jive well their corporate strategy
[17:48] <Yourself> Okay I will take a quote
[17:48] <danhezee> I truely independent game wouldnt have such issues
[17:48] <Yourself> one second
[17:49] <Yourself> I have to find the file...
[17:49] <danhezee> A truely not I truely
[17:50] <@izzy-> truly :(
[17:50] <Yourself> "Rolling familiar faces onto the team will also garner goodwill with the community, ease the privatization of the pyspades server, and promote our transparent indie image rather than a black boxed corporate takeover."
[17:51] <danhezee> ffffffffffffffffffffffffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
[17:51] <Yourself> Black box corporate takeover
[17:51] <Yourself> thats what you have
[17:51] <@izzy-> and you accepted a contract from it, Yourself
[17:51] <Yourself> There are other factors to my acceptance that I am not willing to discuss here
[17:51] <@StackOverflow> shun the non believer
[17:52] <danhezee> sniped: how long do you plan to keep the familiar faces on the team?
[17:52] <MKU> Candy mountain.
[17:52] <@izzy-> Yourself you can't really take that stance anymore
[17:52] <@izzy-> you are part of it now, Yourself
[17:52] <@TheGrandmaster> magical leopleurodon
[17:52] <MKU> Z!!!!
[17:52] <sniped> where's that from Yourself?
[17:52] <danhezee> I know for a fact that "Rolling familiar faces" didnt become a strategy until ben threaten to quit in july
[17:53] <Yourself> Just a document I found on an irc log
[17:53] <danhezee> Rolling familiar faces onto the team will also garner goodwill with the community, ease the privatization of the pyspades server, and promote our transparent indie image rather than a black boxed corporate takeover.  <- that is why I dont trust you
[17:54] <sniped> who said it then?
[17:54] <Yourself> Somebody at jagex I would imagine
[17:54] <danhezee> sniped you know that is true
[17:55] <danhezee> if not then you really arent that high on the totem pole so we cant take any reassurance from you seriously
[17:56] <danhezee> well guys I need to log off and go home
[17:56] <danhezee> see you in a bit
[17:56] <@TheGrandmaster> o/
[17:56] * danhezee ([email protected]) Quit (Signed off)
[17:57] <sniped> so was it from the irc logs?
[17:57] <@TheGrandmaster> maybe #aos.dev ?
[17:59] <sniped> Yourself, was it in the irc logs?
[17:59] <Yourself> I still think that AoS can be a great game with Jagex at the helm so long as it starts to be managed properly soon
[17:59] <Yourself> There is still time
[18:00] <Yourself> But I think the window is closing
[18:00] <Yourself> so there you have it
[18:00] <sniped>  yeah, but was that quote from the irc logs?
[18:00] <Yourself> You should re-read my previous comments
[18:01] <Yourself> I mean really guys
[18:01] <Yourself> you're just shooting yourselves in the feet here
[18:01] <Yourself> we have a good game
[18:01] <sniped> sorry, I have had to deal with some irl stuff.
[18:02] <sniped> so who said it?
[18:02] <sniped> and when?
[18:02] <Yourself> I have no idea who wrote it
[18:02] <Yourself> just like I said before
[18:03] <sniped> so what was the account that posted it
[18:03] <@TheGrandmaster> <Yourself> Just a document I found on an irc log
[18:03] <sniped> can you link me to that document?
[18:03] <Yourself> nope sorry
[18:03] <Yourself> I imagine that you already have access to it
[18:04] <@TheGrandmaster> jagex document?
[18:04] <sniped> why not?
[18:04] <@izzy-> when was that, Yourself ?
[18:05] <sniped> i'll be honest, I have never this document, so I'm a bit skeptical
[18:05] <sniped> not just a bit, but totally skeptical
[18:06] <Yourself> I believe that everyone on #aos.dev has seen it at some point
[18:06] <sniped> that's nice, but I have never seen it
[18:06] <@TheGrandmaster> Yourself: a jagex document?
[18:07] <Yourself> yeah
[18:07] <@TheGrandmaster> sniped: well.. we knew about a new Jagex producer seemingly before Sally did
[18:07] <sniped> you can pm me the link if you don't want to show anyone else it.
[18:07] <sniped> no, you really didn't Grandy
[18:07] <@StackOverflow> yes we did lol
[18:07] <sniped> we just couldn't talk about it
[18:07] <@TheGrandmaster> Yourself: perhaps give sniped the document title so he may ask the uppers for it himself?
[18:07] <@StackOverflow> uh huh
[18:08] <@TheGrandmaster> OH wait
[18:08] * Yourself ([email protected]) Quit (EOF from client)
[18:08] <@TheGrandmaster> it was about Yourself
[18:09] <SallyTheButcher> Not my place to confirm anything and he hadn't told me his handle
[18:09] <@TheGrandmaster> [29/09/2012 20:00:30] Sally: OK well I don't know about any new dev so not sure who you are referring to.
[18:09] * Yourself ([email protected]) has joined #aos.ops
[18:09] <Yourself> Sorry I think gnome 3 crashed
[18:09] <@StackOverflow> they just couldn't tell us ;)
[18:09] <SallyTheButcher> plus when we spoke it was pretty cryptic which was slightly confusing
[18:10] <Yourself> Anyhow its just a road map document which is why it was posted on the dev channel
[18:10] <sniped> so Yourself, are you going to link me to the document?
[18:10] <Yourself> there really isn't anything interesting in it other than that sentence
[18:10] <Yourself> one second
[18:10] <@StackOverflow> I remember the old aos dev roadmap :(
[18:10] <@StackOverflow> so full of promise
[18:10] <sniped> would love to see a copy of that too if you have it stack
[18:11] * danhezee ([email protected]) has joined #aos.ops
[18:11] * Q sets mode: +o danhezee
[18:11] <@^Blub^> Known as.. Danhezee "The Tide Turner"
[18:11] <@TheGrandmaster> all I said was [29/09/2012 19:55:37] me: yeah, heard a dev is coming soon and a new producer is in
[18:11] <sniped> make sure you send it to me in pm Yourself
[18:11] <@StackOverflow> most likely the "new" roadmap is based off of the old one
[18:11] <@danhezee> so anything happen while I was gone
[18:11] <@StackOverflow> not really
[18:12] <@izzy-> there were some fireworks
[18:13] <@TheGrandmaster> izzy-: more like sparklers :p
[18:13] <sniped> is MKU still here. Sorry mate, been ignoring you.  where did we leave it?
[18:14] <@StackOverflow> somewhere between not getting anything done and you being stubborn iirc
[18:14] <Yourself> https://www.box.com/s/ixowux4valby39dqx45w
[18:14] <sniped> ah yes, I wanted to know what you thought a good community would look like
[18:14] <Yourself> I would also like to point out that the arena game mode is incorrectly attributed to Triplefox
[18:14] <Yourself> I was the one who made it
[18:15] <MKU> A good community is the forums in November minus Jagex.
[18:15] <MKU> November of last year that is.
[18:15] <@StackOverflow> yeah, a lot of this is based off of the roadmap I have
[18:16] <sniped> why without Jagex, that is the core of what I am trying to get to.
[18:17] <Yourself> sniped: Anyhow the whole point is that what is happening right now feels like a black box corporate takeover. Which is what the document says Jagex doesn't want to happen...
[18:18] <Yourself> which is why I'm saying that Jagex needs to change its community stance right now
[18:18] <sniped> but we haven't done anything, that is the entire problem.
[18:19] <@izzy-> take responsbility for that, sniped
[18:19] <@izzy-> that's what i keep trying to tell you
[18:19] <@izzy-> stop puttign it on us
[18:19] <Yourself> Which makes it look like a giant black box
[18:19] <sniped> on one hand I am hearing black box take over, on the other that we aren't doing anything. ??
[18:20] <@izzy-> that's your problem
[18:20] <Yourself> not doing anything = black box corporate takeover
[18:20] <@TheGrandmaster> all I've been hearing is that you're doing lots of things
[18:20] <sniped> really? How so?
[18:20] <@TheGrandmaster> if I was asked to name one, I simply have no idea
[18:20] <@StackOverflow> engaging
[18:20] <sniped> as in how is doing nothing a black box take over
[18:21] <sniped> we are doing lots, but very little has gone out to the community yet
[18:21] <Yourself> I understand that you want to make a news release at some strategic time before the release
[18:21] <@izzy-> your disconnect is your fault, sniped
[18:21] <Yourself> but at some point you have to realize that maintaining a community around your game is important too
[18:21] <Yourself> maybe even more important than news stories
[18:21] <Yourself> since news stories only give a temporary boost to viewers
[18:22] <Yourself> a community lasts longer and has more power
[18:22] <Yourself> why don't you realize this?
[18:22] <sniped> how do you know it isn't Yourself?
[18:22] <Yourself> Jagex hasn't released a standalone game in years so they are out of practice
[18:23] <sniped> When was the last game we released?
[18:24] <@danhezee> it is all about short term immediately stats,  not long term substanibility
[18:24] <Yourself> exactly ^
[18:24] <Yourself> have you looked at the stats graphs for the runescape website recently?
[18:24] <sniped> that's wrong Dan, I keep sayint that
[18:24] <sniped> Yourself, when was the last game we released?
[18:24] <@danhezee> ohh you keep saying it so it must be true, is this the presidential debates?
[18:25] <@danhezee> back it up
[18:25] <Yourself> Honestly I can't think of a super successful title since runescape
[18:25] <Yourself> but why is it that I can name the last one from valve?
[18:25] <@danhezee> ohh you cant because you have bragged multiple times about short term gain
[18:25] <sniped> Okay, but when was the last game we released?
[18:26] <Yourself> how about you tell me?
[18:28] <@danhezee> I cant tell you that, and I think that is the point Yourself is trying to make
[18:28] <sniped> You made the claim not me. If you want to say we are out of practice, that is cool. But as Dan said, back it up. The same goes to you Dan, you want to make claims about the short term focus, you back it up. My back up is to come back and look in 6 months, that is the proof of the pudding
[18:28] <Yourself> Jagex has been using runescape as its main source of income for years
[18:28] <@StackOverflow> I think we have backed up ourselves quite well
[18:28] <@StackOverflow> you? not once
[18:28] <Yourself> all games have a limited life span... even mmos
[18:29] <Yourself> mmos have a much longer life span than normal games, this is true, but the lifespan is finite nonetheless
[18:29] <Yourself> so jagex is at a transition now
[18:29] <Yourself> runescape isn't making the money that they want
[18:29] <Yourself> so they're looking for other games
[18:29] <sniped> i think RS being a 10 year old mmo shows how good we are at maintaining communities. There is no parallel to that community
[18:30] <sniped> you have no idea whether that is true or not Yourself.
[18:30] <@danhezee> ohhh what the other games over the past 10 years?
[18:30] <Yourself> I can deduct this much through simple logic
[18:30] <@StackOverflow> this channel is now weak arguments general
[18:31] <Yourself> anyhow I wouldn't say that the current status of the runescape community is good...
[18:31] <@danhezee> let see you have bragged about FB stats... shortterm and youtube videos about ace... shortterm
[18:31] <@SLoW> FWIW, i joined Runescape 10 years ago, and still play occasionally
[18:31] <@SLoW> and when i play, i pay
[18:31] <@SLoW> just tossing that out there
[18:31] <@danhezee> Hi SLoW
[18:31] <@SLoW> hi dan!
[18:31] <@danhezee> missed you
[18:31] <@SLoW> missed u 2 bby
[18:31] <@SLoW> but i never left
[18:32] <@StackOverflow> dam u str8 bbygurl
[18:32] <@SLoW> i'm always here...in your heart
[18:33] <@danhezee> You are so quiet SLoW, how does that make MKU feel?
[18:33] <Yourself> sniped we have a great game... don't let Jagex fuck it up
[18:33] <MKU> Hurt. Almost as bad as what dan said.