[01:29:01] <Hippo> the conversation I had in mind between Sue and Jin
[01:29:47] <Hippo> was something where it was established between them that the world was unjust
[01:30:02] <Hippo> and Sue's response was something along the lines of "then we'll make it just" and Jin just flat out told her "no, that's stupid"
[01:30:09] <Hippo> "the world will *never* be just"
[01:30:32] <Hippo> "you cannot change the world--only the people in it"
[01:31:22] * ~Quixotess frowns
[01:31:25] <~Quixotess> that sounds like semantics
[01:31:50] <Hippo> there is a crucial difference, I think
[01:32:19] <Hippo> in that if you approach the world thinking it should be fair, you're unprepared for a hurricane that slays the virtuous man but brings his villainous brother to a safe and familiar shore
[01:32:27] <~Quixotess> that's silly
[01:32:49] <~Quixotess> justice and injustice don't reside in chance and luck
[01:32:54] <Hippo> and that justice is about resisting the universe
[01:33:25] <Hippo> well no--we decribe such a storm as unjust
[01:33:27] <~Quixotess> they reside in exploitation and oppression, human work
[01:33:39] <~Quixotess> *that's* silly
[01:33:44] <~Quixotess> I would never think of it that way
[01:33:47] <~Quixotess> it's just random
[01:33:55] <Hippo> but exploitation and oppression are products of an unfair distribution of resources
[01:33:58] <~Quixotess> when I refer to an unjust world I'm talking about the people in it
[01:34:03] <Hippo> and inevitably, traced far back enough, the distribution *is* a product of random chance
[01:34:12] <~Quixotess> that's a stretch
[01:34:41] <~Quixotess> well, the scene you're imagining doesn't speak to me, but you're not writing for me so I guess that's okay
[01:34:56] <Hippo> I ultimately try to write for everyone
[01:35:02] <Hippo> so I'm interetsed in your thoughts
[01:35:42] <Hippo> though I think part of our justification for oppression *has* become seeing the distribution of resources as natural, and natural as good
[01:36:15] <Hippo> that is to say, part of injustice lies in the myth of equivalent pay for equivalent labor--part of the myth of capitalism
[01:36:27] <~Quixotess> my thoughts are basically that it's ridiculous to say we can remove all the injustice from people's actions ("changing people") and still have an injust world
[01:36:53] <~Quixotess> I wonder what TORVAUN thinks
[01:36:55] <Hippo> is it because 'world' to you means the people in it?
[01:37:14] <~Quixotess> it's because there's nothing injust about a storm that saves a guy who sucks
[01:37:19] * Torvaun reads back to see what I'm putting an opinion on.
[01:38:42] <~Quixotess> I also think it's wrong to say that even given unequal initial distribution of resources, injustice is a result of that
[01:38:49] <~Quixotess> I read guns germs and steel
[01:38:54] <Torvaun> OK.
[01:38:59] <Hippo> I think for me it's more like--the world is not structured in such a way that supports morality or systems of justice
[01:39:08] <Torvaun> The world gives not even a single shit about balance.
[01:39:09] <~Quixotess> so europeans had guns and disease immunity and stuff
[01:39:17] <Torvaun> Exactly.
[01:39:33] <~Quixotess> if they hadn't decided to go off and murder other people, there still wouldn't be injustice about that
[01:39:37] <Torvaun> Europe was best suited to conquering the world.
[01:39:41] <~Quixotess> they could have decided to share
[01:39:46] <~Quixotess> or leave well enough alone
[01:39:53] <~Quixotess> but they didn't because they suck
[01:39:59] <Torvaun> Eh.
[01:40:10] <Hippo> if they decided to share, and the germs they brought with them as a result killed millions?
[01:40:13] <Hippo> Would that have been unjust?
[01:40:31] <Torvaun> No, because you're applying justice as a concept to something that it doesn't apply to.
[01:40:38] <Torvaun> Justice falls from sapience.
[01:40:47] <~Quixotess> ah!
[01:40:51] <~Quixotess> well put
[01:41:11] <Hippo> To me, justice flows naturally from an acknowledgement of our fundamental rights--our right to life, for instance
[01:41:20] <Hippo> to be deprived of that right is unjust, and to have it protected is just
[01:41:34] <Torvaun> If I punch you in the nose, that might be unjust.  If you get struck by lightning, that's shit happening.
[01:41:36] <~Quixotess> I think that's wrong too
[01:41:50] <~Quixotess> there's nothing unjust about death
[01:41:57] <Hippo> man I think death is hella unjust
[01:42:07] <Torvaun> If you want to go there, Death is the fairest thing in the world.
[01:42:13] <Torvaun> No one gets out alive.
[01:42:21] <~Quixotess> you definitely do not have a right to never die
[01:42:33] <Hippo> I would say you absolutely do
[01:43:17] <Hippo> otherwise we are putting conditions on when it's okay for you to die and when it's not okay
[01:43:23] <Hippo> and to me, that right is non-conditional
[01:43:32] <Hippo> whether or not you're shooting me or a rock is falling on me
[01:43:38] <Hippo> death is wrong and unjust
[01:44:06] * ~Quixotess shakes her head
[01:44:12] <~Quixotess> I just think that's silly, sorry
[01:44:38] <Hippo> if fundamental rights can only be violated by humans, I think we encounter certain problems