[10:47:03] <RichardD> how do I let datatog tell me lines from the IPG? :(
[10:48:08] <RichardD> cause someone is asking me about exception nr 3. to IPG 3.6
[10:48:46] <RichardD> when a GVR has made it so that one player has more cards then they're supposed to
[10:48:51] <RichardD> *than
[10:49:38] <LokiiWork> brainstorm
[10:50:13] <RichardD> we return those to the top of their library
[10:50:27] <RichardD> how is that more cards? only if he/she forgets to put them back, right/
[10:50:29] <RichardD> ?
[10:50:50] <RichardD> i mean, resolving brainstorm = -1 + 3 - 2 = 0
[10:51:12] <RichardD> so it is just as many cards, but other ones
[10:52:12] <RichardD> so now the guy is asking
[10:52:24] <RichardD> what if my opponent plays Breakthrough for X=2
[10:52:31] <RichardD> and he doesn't discard
[10:52:45] <RichardD> do the cards get put back on top of the library?
[10:53:03] <RichardD> cause now the player has more cards than he's supposed to
[10:53:39] <RichardD> but they should've been discarded
[10:53:45] <ofdChurch> it is the second additional remedy for GRV
[10:53:55] <ofdChurch> Viladecans
[10:53:56] <RichardD> see
[10:53:56] <ofdChurch> crap
[10:53:58] <ofdChurch> sorry
[10:54:07] <ofdChurch> If a player forgot to discard or return cards from their hand to another zone, that player does so.
[10:54:09] <RichardD> that's why I needed the Datatog!
[10:54:16] <RichardD> aha
[10:54:32] <ofdChurch> !IPG 3.6
[10:54:36] <Datatog> 819 cards similar to "IPG 3.6" found and sent to ofdChurch.
[10:54:41] <ofdChurch> nope :(
[10:54:53] <RichardD> but brainstorm is not an example for nr3, unless he/she doesn't put back the cards, right?
[10:55:05] <sokjes> command used to be !pg but it is now disabled
[10:55:11] <Tasha> It's actually 2
[10:55:14] <sokjes> I think yawg stopped updating (unsure about that)
[10:55:23] <Tasha> Because they forgot to return cards from their hand to another zone
[10:55:27] <ofdChurch> yeah, it is covered under 2
[10:56:13] <sokjes> exception 3 is for counsel of the sorotami without blue
[10:56:14] <Tasha> 3 would apply if, say, a player cast a tutor that put the card into their hand when they weren't allowed to, or... I don't know, Grim Discovery with no black sources
[10:56:26] <Tasha> At least that's my understanding
[10:56:48] <RichardD> but...that's silly :(
[10:56:58] <RichardD> first you determine it is too difficult to fix
[10:57:12] <RichardD> then you fix and make the player lose his/her spell
[10:57:13] * Lim_Dul (~Limdul@xdsl-89-0-158-191.netcologne.de) Quit (Read error: Operation timed out)
[10:57:18] <RichardD> right?
[10:57:23] * Carsten is now known as Cars10afk
[10:57:32] * Cari (~kuranes@pool-96-241-158-231.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Quit
[10:57:37] <sokjes> very valid point
[10:57:45] <sokjes> one I forgot to raise last time I realized it :p
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[10:58:09] <RichardD> and with the tutor example
[10:58:14] <Tasha> Am not clear on that. It seems more in line with other DCI philosophy to either fix entirely or not at all in those cases
[10:58:19] <RichardD> the player will probably still be happy
[10:58:32] <RichardD> since his demonic tutor now became a vampiric tutor without the lifeloss
[10:58:48] <RichardD> Tasha; so why the exception?
[10:59:00] <Tasha> Well, you return cards at random. So they might still have the tutored card in hand
[10:59:15] <Tasha> I should say it seems more in line *to me* on the above
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[11:00:06] <Tasha> I should also say that I am by no means a guru on philosophy. It was something that was brought up at the PTQ where I tested for L2, and it does seem very strange to me
[11:01:37] <RichardD> i know most things about DCI philosophy
[11:01:41] <RichardD> but this one eludes me
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[11:02:58] <Tasha> Can anyone make a case for why #3 should apply in those cases? Or alternately enlighten us on why it does not in fact apply?
[11:04:26] <RichardD> i'm afraid this clause was forgotten to take out when drawing extra cards came back in
[11:04:28] <Anusien> Where it should apply at all?
[11:05:03] <Anusien> Is that what you mean?
[11:05:29] <RichardD> yeah
[11:05:41] <Tasha> Suppose player A casts Grim Discovery, returning cards from his graveyard to his hand, when he had no black sources available. Under the IPG as written, it seems like the solution (if it's deemed too complicated to back up) is to return cards at random from the hand to the top of the library
[11:05:57] <Tasha> And that's weird. Likewise if a player casts a tutor when they could not do so.
[11:06:00] <Anusien> Assuming we can't back up to the point of the error
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[11:06:39] <BMcDole> Well, think about something like I activate Jace Beleren when there's a Pithing needle out, technically it's not DEC it's GRV they haven't forgotten to discard/return cards they just have an extra card in han
[11:06:39] <Anusien> Let's say we activate one of the jaces with a Pithing Needle naming that card on the battlefield
[11:06:42] <LokiiWork> Tasha, it applies to brainstorm and jace and effects such as that
[11:06:44] <Anusien> ^5 BMcDole
[11:06:49] <BMcDole> ^5
[11:07:00] <BMcDole> That was odd
[11:08:13] <Tasha> So exception 3 wouldn't apply in the cases I mentioned?
[11:09:12] <BMcDole> It could, what do you mean tutor when they couldn't?
[11:10:08] <Tasha> Let's say they cast Demonic Tutor with a Meddling Mage naming it, and neither player notices it in time to back up
[11:10:17] * telliott (~telliott@corp-240.mv.mozilla.com) has joined #mtgjudge
[11:10:19] * Gleemax sets mode: +v telliott
[11:10:24] <RichardD> or tapping a dual with blood moon out
[11:10:26] <LokiiWork> there's the man now
[11:10:51] <BMcDole> Well, it doesn't seem like they have excess cards in hand there
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[11:11:04] <RichardD> neither with brainstorm
[11:11:09] <Tasha> How about Tooth and Nail, with Meddling Mage naming?
[11:11:14] <RichardD> -1, +3, -2 = 0
[11:11:17] <BMcDole> If you try to apply that fix there what's going to happen is you're going to put a card back at random and they won't get their tooth and nail back
[11:11:41] <BMcDole> They've committed a GRV by casting it, but now that they have they don't have an extra card in hand
[11:11:44] <RichardD> only with the brainstorm ability from jace it is +3 -2
[11:12:07] <RichardD> so the only thing we can think of is activating Jace when not allowed...
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[11:12:19] <BMcDole> Sure, but again they've correctly resolved the ability, they just did it at a time when it wasn't permitted
[11:12:24] <Tasha> But with Tooth and Nail, they're down 1 for playing, up 2 for the creature cards
[11:12:29] <Tasha> so net +1
[11:12:40] <LokiiWork> Tasha, you're reading way too much into that
[11:13:24] <Tasha> I'm actually a lot more interested in the graveyard-recursion case than the tutor case
[11:14:25] <Tasha> But what do you mean, Lokii?
[11:15:14] * ofdChurch (~ofthechur@82.158.245.177.dyn.user.ono.com) Quit (Ping timeout: 492 seconds)
[11:15:49] <Wiz_de> I have a feeling the wording may change in the next update
[11:15:52] <telliott> indeed
[11:15:59] <telliott> I wouldn't stress about it too much
[11:16:07] <LokiiWork> and please rewind or don't rewind
[11:16:14] <LokiiWork> dont' partially rewind a tutor effect heh
[11:17:39] <Tasha> Sure. I'm not trying to stress it, and I definitely would unwind completely or not at all unless a HJ specifically told me otherwise. I was just curious about it.