[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Indeed
[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Players will want to buy real estate
[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Set up shops, rise to power
[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: All of which will cost money
[01:44] Paul Aleman, Jr.: And don't forget buy weapons and such from skilled craftsman
[01:44] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I feel like we don't have to worry about whether or not people want money
[01:44] [email protected]: We should make weapons definitely break.
[01:44] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Or at least need to be repaired by craftsman
[01:45] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I can imagine weapons breaking without the option of repair would be kind of annoying
[01:45] [email protected]: People shouldn't be able to just get a godsword and be made.
[01:46] [email protected]: Weapons should be a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
[01:46] Paul Aleman, Jr.: In the new system I think good weapons/armor are going to be very difficult to buy and maintain
[01:46] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Indeed
[01:47] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Si a tendency for stuff to break is a way of disposing of excess items
[01:47] Paul Aleman, Jr.: So*
[01:48] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I'm just not sure we'll need to dispose of excess items that often
[01:48] [email protected]: Hmm
[01:48] Paul Aleman, Jr.: In a perfect crafts system, the weapons will be very difficult to come by
[01:48] Paul Aleman, Jr.: And they should be improving upon their craft all the time
[01:49] [email protected]: I definitely don't want it to be as item-dependent as the current version.
[01:49] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Well, the items in the current V are so big because evey mob spawns an infinite amount of them
[01:50] [email protected]: Um, I don't think that's it.
[01:50] Paul Aleman, Jr.: What do you mean then?
[01:50] [email protected]: I think it's how gameplay and characters are structured.
[01:50] [email protected]: Like, if you want to make the best character possible, you design it to a specific set of items.
[01:51] [email protected]: You want just enough str to wield such and such and just enough agi to wear such and such and then if you get this thing and that thing then you have a good character.
[01:51] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Oh, I thought you meant how items are effecting the economy in a different way
[01:51] [email protected]: And every tao is wearing those +agi britches and every zerker wants a crescent moon axe, etc.
[01:52] [email protected]: I'm not sure just making really really good weapons vanishingly rare is the right answer either.
[01:52] [email protected]: Cause that just means that a strong player will get them and then everyone else will be slightly less good.
[01:52] [email protected]: That's why I think they should break.
[01:52] [email protected]: Make it so that you can't count on getting some awesome weapon.
[01:52] [email protected]: Cause it has a finite lifespan.
[01:52] [email protected]: And obsessing over it will just make you diisappointed later.
[01:53] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Hm
[01:54] Paul Aleman, Jr.: In an ideal environment the materials to make such a good weapon would be very rare and difficult to obtain and the craftsmanship skills that it would take to create it would be very difficult
[01:54] [email protected]: But that's the same as having the crescent moon axe only load once in a blue moon.
[01:55] [email protected]: I think it's a question of tone and flavor.
[01:55] [email protected]: Having big fancy weapons that make you a super good fighter is high fantasy.
[01:55] [email protected]: Dusk is grittier, more noir than pulp.
[01:55] Paul Aleman, Jr.: My point is that it will be very hard and super expensive to get the item, and I'm not sure people are going to like spending that much effort getting th eitem only to have it break in a short time
[01:55] [email protected]: Then reduce the cost and expense;
[01:55] [email protected]: In pulp the hero has a golden gun.
[01:56] [email protected]: In noir he has a Smith and Wesson that get's the damn job done.
[01:56] [email protected]: *gets
[01:56] [email protected]: Also: fuck players.
[01:56] Paul Aleman, Jr.: If we reducte the cost and expense, though, than everybody will have the best weapons because they'll be easier to obtain
[01:56] [email protected]: Lower the bar on "best"
[01:56] [email protected]: Players are the enemy, dude.
[01:57] [email protected]: Fuck players.
[01:57] [email protected]: They need to have their hands held to have fun.
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Well, to an extent they are, I mean, we're trying to make a fun game
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: After all, we're players too
[01:57] [email protected]: Players are the enemies of fun and good design.
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Hah most of the time, yes
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: They want something easy and predictable
[01:58] [email protected]: Here's the thing.
[01:58] [email protected]: You're talking about lots of work and expense to get a good weapon.
[01:58] [email protected]: That makes it a goal for players to achieve.
[01:58] [email protected]: That's a stupid goal.
[01:59] [email protected]: The goal should be to have a strong faction, or to research new alchemies, or to utterly control the spice trade.
[01:59] [email protected]: The weapon just helps them achieve that.
[01:59] [email protected]: So let there be a scale.
[01:59] [email protected]: Steel weapons are better than copper.
[01:59] [email protected]: BUT
[01:59] [email protected]: You just get steel.
[01:59] [email protected]: Maybe you get steel that's a little heavier, and bites a bit more.
[01:59] [email protected]: And if you know a friendly priest he might bless it.
[02:00] [email protected]: But if all you had was a copper sword you could get by.
[02:00] [email protected]: And not miss it too much.
[02:00] [email protected]: Because man, a sword's a sword.
[02:00] [email protected]: Make it grittier, lower-fantasy.
[02:00] [email protected]: That was Adam's original game design goal.
[02:00] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Ok, I see what you mean
[02:00] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I agree
[02:00] [email protected]: He didn't want any glowing uberswords of doom pulsing with godly power.
[02:01] [email protected]: But that's what lots of the items in the game are.
[02:01] [email protected]: Just with less flowery language.
[02:01] [email protected]: We don't want Blackwand.
[02:01] [email protected]: We want Vlad
[02:01] [email protected]: 's rapier./
[02:02] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Ok, well perhaps we change the direction on what a "good" weapon is
[02:02] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Perhaps instead of having things like "sharpness" being the most important part of a rapier, perhaps craftsman could make rapiers with different balance and size
[02:03] Paul Aleman, Jr.: And the different weapons might change the flow of battle
[02:03] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Like, a fencer using a 20 inch, light copper sword will fight differently somehow than a fencer with a 15 inch, heavier steel sword
[02:05] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Things like quality of the sharpness of the weapon will be a thing, but not as prevelant
[02:05] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I have no idea where to go from there but it's an interesting idea heh
[02:05] [email protected]: Hmm.
[02:06] [email protected]: Gonna have to talk to Ars about how the combat system is going to change, if at all.
[02:06] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Well I kind of like the current combat system
[02:06] [email protected]: I do too.
[02:06] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I think it just needs some tweaks
[02:06] [email protected]: It carries a lot of the flavor of Dusk.
[02:07] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Anyway, it would add a lot of strategy into the combat system, as you might use different swords for different situations
[02:09] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I don't know, do you think the idea has merit?
[02:10] [email protected]: I'm sitting with it.
[02:10] [email protected]: I like it in principle, but I'm concerned about a) how to design/program that into combat, and b) how to let players make good decisions about it.
[02:11] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Hm
[02:13] Paul Aleman, Jr.: The most obvious way to put it into the combat system would be to have an ideal weapon characteristic for each skill. Like, a lighter, shorter weapon makes it easier to parry, and a heavier, longer weapon is better for thrusting
[02:13] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Then also give the player a bonus for being proficient with a certain weight/length of blade
[02:14] [email protected]: Hmm.
[02:14] [email protected]: That's not bad.
[02:15] [email protected]: Cause then the design just comes in when we design the skill.
[02:15] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Yeah
[02:15] [email protected]: And when it skill is used it checks the item to perform a bonus or not.
[02:15] Paul Aleman, Jr.: They might be some fun balance stuff too, like so and so is 60% proficient with a 17inch copper rapier and 40% with a 22inch steel
[02:16] [email protected]: Heh
[02:16] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Then they could switch out depending on what kind of enemy they're against
[02:16] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Or defense/offense whatever
[02:51] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Gonna hit the sack
[02:51] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Night man
[02:51] [email protected]: Yeah dog me too.
[02:51] [email protected]: Take it easy.