[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Indeed
[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Players will want to buy real estate
[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Set up shops, rise to power
[01:43] Paul Aleman, Jr.: All of which will cost money
[01:44] Paul Aleman, Jr.: And don't forget buy weapons and such from skilled craftsman
[01:44] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I feel like we don't have to worry about whether or not people want money
[01:44] devohm@gmail.com: We should make weapons definitely break.
[01:44] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Or at least need to be repaired by craftsman
[01:45] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I can imagine weapons breaking without the option of repair would be kind of annoying
[01:45] devohm@gmail.com: People shouldn't be able to just get a godsword and be made.
[01:46] devohm@gmail.com: Weapons should be a means to an end, not an end in themselves.
[01:46] Paul Aleman, Jr.: In the new system I think good weapons/armor are going to be very difficult to buy and maintain
[01:46] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Indeed
[01:47] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Si a tendency for stuff to break is a way of disposing of excess items
[01:47] Paul Aleman, Jr.: So*
[01:48] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I'm just not sure we'll need to dispose of excess items that often
[01:48] devohm@gmail.com: Hmm
[01:48] Paul Aleman, Jr.: In a perfect crafts system, the weapons will be very difficult to come by
[01:48] Paul Aleman, Jr.: And they should be improving upon their craft all the time
[01:49] devohm@gmail.com: I definitely don't want it to be as item-dependent as the current version.
[01:49] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Well, the items in the current V are so big because evey mob spawns an infinite amount of them
[01:50] devohm@gmail.com: Um, I don't think that's it.
[01:50] Paul Aleman, Jr.: What do you mean then?
[01:50] devohm@gmail.com: I think it's how gameplay and characters are structured.
[01:50] devohm@gmail.com: Like, if you want to make the best character possible, you design it to a specific set of items.
[01:51] devohm@gmail.com: You want just enough str to wield such and such and just enough agi to wear such and such and then if you get this thing and that thing then you have a good character.
[01:51] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Oh, I thought you meant how items are effecting the economy in a different way
[01:51] devohm@gmail.com: And every tao is wearing those +agi britches and every zerker wants a crescent moon axe, etc.
[01:52] devohm@gmail.com: I'm not sure just making really really good weapons vanishingly rare is the right answer either.
[01:52] devohm@gmail.com: Cause that just means that a strong player will get them and then everyone else will be slightly less good.
[01:52] devohm@gmail.com: That's why I think they should break.
[01:52] devohm@gmail.com: Make it so that you can't count on getting some awesome weapon.
[01:52] devohm@gmail.com: Cause it has a finite lifespan.
[01:52] devohm@gmail.com: And obsessing over it will just make you diisappointed later.
[01:53] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Hm
[01:54] Paul Aleman, Jr.: In an ideal environment the materials to make such a good weapon would be very rare and difficult to obtain and the craftsmanship skills that it would take to create it would be very difficult
[01:54] devohm@gmail.com: But that's the same as having the crescent moon axe only load once in a blue moon.
[01:55] devohm@gmail.com: I think it's a question of tone and flavor.
[01:55] devohm@gmail.com: Having big fancy weapons that make you a super good fighter is high fantasy.
[01:55] devohm@gmail.com: Dusk is grittier, more noir than pulp.
[01:55] Paul Aleman, Jr.: My point is that it will be very hard and super expensive to get the item, and I'm not sure people are going to like spending that much effort getting th eitem only to have it break in a short time
[01:55] devohm@gmail.com: Then reduce the cost and expense;
[01:55] devohm@gmail.com: In pulp the hero has a golden gun.
[01:56] devohm@gmail.com: In noir he has a Smith and Wesson that get's the damn job done.
[01:56] devohm@gmail.com: *gets
[01:56] devohm@gmail.com: Also: fuck players.
[01:56] Paul Aleman, Jr.: If we reducte the cost and expense, though, than everybody will have the best weapons because they'll be easier to obtain
[01:56] devohm@gmail.com: Lower the bar on "best"
[01:56] devohm@gmail.com: Players are the enemy, dude.
[01:57] devohm@gmail.com: Fuck players.
[01:57] devohm@gmail.com: They need to have their hands held to have fun.
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Well, to an extent they are, I mean, we're trying to make a fun game
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: After all, we're players too
[01:57] devohm@gmail.com: Players are the enemies of fun and good design.
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Hah most of the time, yes
[01:57] Paul Aleman, Jr.: They want something easy and predictable
[01:58] devohm@gmail.com: Here's the thing.
[01:58] devohm@gmail.com: You're talking about lots of work and expense to get a good weapon.
[01:58] devohm@gmail.com: That makes it a goal for players to achieve.
[01:58] devohm@gmail.com: That's a stupid goal.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: The goal should be to have a strong faction, or to research new alchemies, or to utterly control the spice trade.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: The weapon just helps them achieve that.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: So let there be a scale.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: Steel weapons are better than copper.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: BUT
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: You just get steel.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: Maybe you get steel that's a little heavier, and bites a bit more.
[01:59] devohm@gmail.com: And if you know a friendly priest he might bless it.
[02:00] devohm@gmail.com: But if all you had was a copper sword you could get by.
[02:00] devohm@gmail.com: And not miss it too much.
[02:00] devohm@gmail.com: Because man, a sword's a sword.
[02:00] devohm@gmail.com: Make it grittier, lower-fantasy.
[02:00] devohm@gmail.com: That was Adam's original game design goal.
[02:00] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Ok, I see what you mean
[02:00] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I agree
[02:00] devohm@gmail.com: He didn't want any glowing uberswords of doom pulsing with godly power.
[02:01] devohm@gmail.com: But that's what lots of the items in the game are.
[02:01] devohm@gmail.com: Just with less flowery language.
[02:01] devohm@gmail.com: We don't want Blackwand.
[02:01] devohm@gmail.com: We want Vlad
[02:01] devohm@gmail.com: 's rapier./
[02:02] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Ok, well perhaps we change the direction on what a "good" weapon is
[02:02] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Perhaps instead of having things like "sharpness" being the most important part of a rapier, perhaps craftsman could make rapiers with different balance and size
[02:03] Paul Aleman, Jr.: And the different weapons might change the flow of battle
[02:03] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Like, a fencer using a 20 inch, light copper sword will fight differently somehow than a fencer with a 15 inch, heavier steel sword
[02:05] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Things like quality of the sharpness of the weapon will be a thing, but not as prevelant
[02:05] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I have no idea where to go from there but it's an interesting idea heh
[02:05] devohm@gmail.com: Hmm.
[02:06] devohm@gmail.com: Gonna have to talk to Ars about how the combat system is going to change, if at all.
[02:06] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Well I kind of like the current combat system
[02:06] devohm@gmail.com: I do too.
[02:06] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I think it just needs some tweaks
[02:06] devohm@gmail.com: It carries a lot of the flavor of Dusk.
[02:07] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Anyway, it would add a lot of strategy into the combat system, as you might use different swords for different situations
[02:09] Paul Aleman, Jr.: I don't know, do you think the idea has merit?
[02:10] devohm@gmail.com: I'm sitting with it.
[02:10] devohm@gmail.com: I like it in principle, but I'm concerned about a) how to design/program that into combat, and b) how to let players make good decisions about it.
[02:11] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Hm
[02:13] Paul Aleman, Jr.: The most obvious way to put it into the combat system would be to have an ideal weapon characteristic for each skill. Like, a lighter, shorter weapon makes it easier to parry, and a heavier, longer weapon is better for thrusting
[02:13] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Then also give the player a bonus for being proficient with a certain weight/length of blade
[02:14] devohm@gmail.com: Hmm.
[02:14] devohm@gmail.com: That's not bad.
[02:15] devohm@gmail.com: Cause then the design just comes in when we design the skill.
[02:15] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Yeah
[02:15] devohm@gmail.com: And when it skill is used it checks the item to perform a bonus or not.
[02:15] Paul Aleman, Jr.: They might be some fun balance stuff too, like so and so is 60% proficient with a 17inch copper rapier and 40% with a 22inch steel
[02:16] devohm@gmail.com: Heh
[02:16] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Then they could switch out depending on what kind of enemy they're against
[02:16] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Or defense/offense whatever
[02:51] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Gonna hit the sack
[02:51] Paul Aleman, Jr.: Night man
[02:51] devohm@gmail.com: Yeah dog me too.
[02:51] devohm@gmail.com: Take it easy.