fudge:"most.."Muslim countries"are..liberalized democracies"

12:52:15 PM+fudgeThe "clash of civilizations" idea is usually in conjunction with the "defend western civilization."
12:52:30 PM← kissa has quit (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.92-rdmsoft [XULRunner 35.0.1/20150122214805])
12:52:35 PM+fudgeIt is kind of nebulous as to what that's supposed to mean - but I suspect that's on purpose.
12:53:06 PM+fudgeAnyone can come up with any reasons as to why "western civilization is in decline" and it usually comes down to bullshit idealist stances about 'values' and 'morality.'
12:53:17 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: I think Islam has major problems.
12:53:24 PM+fudgeIslam is not a "civilization"
12:53:50 PM+fudgeThe West, if anything, is the instigator of said clashes, if you can call it a clash at all.
12:54:27 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Islamic societies, unlike Christian societies, did not develop what Westerners consider the secular apparatuses of secular government. Islam very much is a civiliation.
12:54:31 PM← shrayz has quit (Read error: Input/output error)
12:54:42 PM+InfiniteSpireThat's a claim from a leading scholar on Islam in the West.
12:54:47 PM+fudgeInfiniteSpire: I do not accept that dichotomy of there being "Islamic societies" and "Christian societies"
12:55:02 PM+InfiniteSpireWhy?
12:55:15 PM+InfiniteSpireThere are Muslim majority countries, and other countries that are not Muslim majority.
12:55:21 PM+fudgeBecause it isn't an accurate description of the material development anything.
12:55:28 PM+fudgeof the material development of anything*
12:55:39 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Over 50% of Muslims worldwide want to live under Sharia law.
12:55:43 PM+fudgeAlso, most of the so-called "Muslim countries" are already liberalized democracies.
12:56:09 PM+InfiniteSpireThat claim seems very false.
12:56:13 PM+InfiniteSpireI am collecting data.
12:56:25 PM+InfiniteSpire"most" is what you said.
12:56:42 PM← lauchlin has quit (Quit: Going offline, see ya! (www.adiirc.com))
12:56:48 PM+fudgeThere's no dichotomy here.
12:56:54 PM+fudgeIt's a false dichotomy.
12:57:02 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Over 50% of Muslims worldwide want to live under Sharia law.
12:57:09 PM+InfiniteSpireThat's not compatible with the West, which is secular.
12:57:10 PM+fudgeThat doesn't tell me anything.
12:57:23 PM+InfiniteSpireIt tells you that a majority of Muslims cannot currently live in our societies without striving to destroy them.
12:57:37 PM+fudgeWell, good.
12:57:41 PM+fudgeI'll join them.
12:57:52 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: Do you think freedom of religious expression is a good or bad value?
12:58:03 PM+InfiniteSpireThat last comment of yours was foolish.
12:58:13 PM+InfiniteSpireYes, our societies are fucked up, but Islam isn't going to fix them in good ways.
12:58:17 PM+fudgeInfiniteSpire: I don't believe in the "freedom of religious expression" in the first place. It's a meaningless phrase.
12:58:22 PM+InfiniteSpireDon't pretend you're allies.
12:58:34 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: It means you can express whatever religious thoughts you have without fear from the state.
12:58:41 PM+InfiniteSpireIt's a straightforward concept.
12:58:55 PM+fudgeInfiniteSpire: Yeah, i am aware of the IDEAL of the conception, but what good is my moral stance on it? It's not a real thing you are presenting.
12:59:00 PM+fudgeYou are demanding fealty to an ideal.
12:59:03 PM+fudgeI'll give you no such thing.
12:59:10 PM+InfiniteSpireThat is a baffling assertion.
12:59:16 PM+fudgeNo, it is not.
12:59:18 PM+InfiniteSpireI didn't demand anything.
12:59:22 PM+InfiniteSpireI asked you a question.
12:59:25 PM+InfiniteSpireYou strawmanned me.
12:59:29 PM+fudgeYes, and I gave you my answer.
12:59:37 PM+InfiniteSpirePlease admit you were wrong when you said demand.
12:59:40 PM+InfiniteSpireIt will increase your integrity.
12:59:53 PM+InfiniteSpireYou seem far more emotional than your baseline.
1:00:00 PM+InfiniteSpireWestern thought teaches us emotion makes us reason moor poorly.
1:00:06 PM+InfiniteSpiremore*
1:00:19 PM+fudgeOh you're on this again.
1:00:25 PM+InfiniteSpireYou're not going to engage that thread.
1:00:30 PM+fudgeNo.
1:00:36 PM Ignoring fudge!*@*
1:00:45 PM+InfiniteSpirefudge: I put you on ignore for 1 hour.
1:01:06 PM+InfiniteSpireReason: You're currently emotional -- specifically defensive as you feel under attack. You're no longer reasoning well and you need a cool off period.
1:01:20 PM+InfiniteSpirehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_world
1:01:42 PM+InfiniteSpire6: Muslim majority countries that have Islam as the state.
1:02:07 PM+InfiniteSpire20: Muslim majority countries have have adopted Islam as the official religion.
1:02:15 PM+InfiniteSpire2: Unclear
1:02:40 PM+InfiniteSpire23: Secular Muslim majority societies
1:02:59 PM+InfiniteSpireI'll remand fudge's claim was about "liberalized democracies", not secular states.
1:03:09 PM+InfiniteSpireEven by the secular state definition, which is weaker, his claim of "most" is false.
1:03:22 PM+InfiniteSpireIt is 23-26 for the weaker definition.
1:03:55 PM+InfiniteSpireHere is the list of 20 secular states:  Albania[180] Azerbaijan[181] Bosnia-Herzegovina[182] Burkina Faso[183] Chad[184] The Gambia[185] Guinea[186] Guinea-Bissau[187] Kazakhstan[188] Kosovo[189] Kyrgyzstan[190] Lebanon[191][192] Mali[193] Niger[194] Nigeria[195] Northern Cyprus State of Palestine Palestine[196] Senegal[197] Sierra Leone[198] Tajikistan[199] Turkey[200] Turkmenistan[201] Uzbekistan[202]
1:04:01 PM+InfiniteSpireHow many of those do you think are "liberalized democracies"?
1:04:08 PM→ LordGloom has joined
1:04:08 PMⓘ Raven`X set mode +v LordGloom
1:04:19 PM+InfiniteSpireI count roughly 2.
1:04:25 PM+InfiniteSpireAlbania and Niger.
1:04:38 PM+InfiniteSpireSo, we see fudge's claim is almost *entirely false*.
1:04:47 PM+InfiniteSpireThen, he wants us to trust him on his insight into Muslim societies.
1:05:04 PM+InfiniteSpireI recommend not doing that, as he appears to be willing to be dishonest in pursuit of his ideology.
1:05:18 PM+InfiniteSpireYou'll recall the gold standard in Western civilization is Enlightenment and scientific truth.
1:05:30 PM+InfiniteSpireWhere we *never* compromise our integrity, our claims, or our facts because of ideology.
1:05:57 PM+InfiniteSpireHere is what I will do now.
1:06:02 PM+InfiniteSpireI am going to look at nations of the world ranked by liberalism.
1:06:07 PM+InfiniteSpireAnd I will look at the 20 secular states in that list.
1:06:59 PM+InfiniteSpireIn Albania, liberalism is weak. Two parties could be considered to embrace liberal values: the Democratic Alliance Party (Partia Aleanca Demokratike, member LI, ALDE) and the Unity for Human Rights Party (Partia Bashkimi për të Drejtat e Njeriut), which is the party of the ethnic minorities. (Main article: Liberalism in Albania.)
1:07:03 PM+InfiniteSpireI was wrong.
1:08:57 PM+InfiniteSpireBurkina Faso is a weakly liberal country.
1:12:56 PM+InfiniteSpireSenegal is moderately liberal.
1:13:00 PM+InfiniteSpirehttps://freedomhouse.org/sites/default/files/FH_FIW_2017_Report_Final.pdf
1:13:40 PM+InfiniteSpireThis shows Albania in the moderate category as well.
1:13:51 PM+InfiniteSpireSierra Leone is moderate.
1:14:34 PM+InfiniteSpireKosovo is slightly liberal.
1:14:36 PM+InfiniteSpireThat's it.
1:14:55 PM+InfiniteSpireAlbania, Burkina Falso, Sierra Leone, Kosovo.
1:15:08 PM+InfiniteSpireYou have 4 moderate to weak liberal, Muslim-majority societies.
1:15:33 PM+InfiniteSpireVersus 26 that are Islamic states or states with Islam as the state religion.
1:15:44 PM+InfiniteSpireTruth rating of fudge's claim: Pants on fire.