Confusing 3d stuffs.

AhziDahaka - Today at 3:25 PM
Basically every Mario platforming game is just a stunt show and the player takes on the role of director
You tell Mario where to run, jump, etc.
And in 3D games you direct the camera
Smuggs - Today at 3:26 PM
We game theory now?
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:26 PM
...but Luigi's Mansion! ;w;
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:26 PM
Or it just doesn't have a coherent canon.
The camera thing was explained as a technical reason. People didn't get 3D, the camera metaphor helped.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:27 PM
Yes
AhziDahaka - Today at 3:28 PM
Miyamoto has gone on record saying that Mario and the others are basically actors though
Ryusho - Today at 3:28 PM
>.< trying to decide if I go take a nap...or if I stay up...and if I stay up do I try to find sexytimes, or do I go play Shadow of War or something...
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:29 PM
Miyamoto has said things when caught with his pants down :P
AhziDahaka - Today at 3:29 PM
Yeah but this was the intention from the start, hence Mario as a golfer, Mario as a referee, Mario as a doctor, etc.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:29 PM
Play shadow of war and kill the unkillable orc or shame that unashamed orc.
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:30 PM
And it's not actually an obvious thing to have a camera metaphor as the controls, because what's really happening in 3D is that the world moves.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:30 PM
And ocarina of time made the game dated with 3d
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:30 PM
The view is entirely static.
Aurick - Today at 3:31 PM
Miyamoto also has said that he's Bowser Jr's mother, so
:guile_really:
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:31 PM
Oh yeah, he had his pants way down that time.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:31 PM
He's his mother.
Ryusho - Today at 3:31 PM
Eh, It depends if you keep the orign point as the player character, and move the world in relation, OR of the origin point is the base of the world, and you move the players point around it, It all depends on how the game is coded
AhziDahaka - Today at 3:31 PM
Yeah but I mean, that's kind of called a joke
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:31 PM
No, that is how 3D works :p
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:31 PM
Tell that to the transexuals
Aurick - Today at 3:31 PM
I'm saying there's such a thing as looking too far between the lines, my guy
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:32 PM
The game may pretend that there's a camera too, but that's also just an abstraction.
Ryusho - Today at 3:32 PM
>.> Not according to game production and model production and the like
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:32 PM
Bowser is a lesbian confirmed.
Ryusho - Today at 3:32 PM
In my own experience
AhziDahaka - Today at 3:32 PM
I'm just saying everything about Mario makes infinitely more sense if you see it as a series of action/stunt shows put on by actors
Aurick - Today at 3:33 PM
Mario...doesn't need to make sense though
Ryusho - Today at 3:33 PM
It alld epends on how it's coded in thebackground, as well as how each NPC is coded as wella sn the world, some games use that origin is the player mode, others actually use the world has the origin and the player moves,
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:33 PM
And the same can be said if link is dead in Majora's Mask nd his soul is the wolf/stalfos in Twilight Princess
Ryusho - Today at 3:33 PM
Some use multiple origin points
Aurick - Today at 3:33 PM
Jumping through hoops just to make it make sense only makes things weirder
Ryusho - Today at 3:33 PM
So that way things 'move' in relation to you, but also move in relation to the world, and ceachother considering NPC's
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:33 PM
That's logical movement.
Which is also an abstraction.
Ryusho - Today at 3:34 PM
But yes, In older Top down style Games, The world tends to move with the sprite changing to fit,
However if your world can be shown all in one screen and the 'sprite moves' but the world doesn't that means the player is it's own origin and the world origin is sperate,
But if both can occur, you have floating styled relative origins
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:34 PM
What?
Ryusho - Today at 3:34 PM
..It might not be the right term
But I don't know all the in depth terms, even though Ihave taken game development lessons
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:35 PM
I don't get what you're trying to explain :P
Ryusho - Today at 3:35 PM
I knwo the concepts
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:35 PM
@Aurick can concur
It gets weird
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:35 PM
In the end, you have to draw pixels on a 2D plane. The way you turn a 3D projection into polygons into pixels is simply always by moving the world around, your viewpoint can't move.
Ryusho - Today at 3:35 PM
https://answers.unity.com/questions/414719/moving-the-world-or-the-player.html
You can choose to move either, or both
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:35 PM
That's the logical movement.
The obvious way to do that is to move the entities, obviously :P
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:36 PM
Moving the world?
Hah
Ryusho - Today at 3:36 PM
.....Loom I love the fact yoru trying to prove yourself right and ignoring the facts
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:36 PM
Uh
Ryusho - Today at 3:36 PM
or actual implimentations
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:36 PM
I've made a game where the world moves.
It was a runner game.
Ryusho - Today at 3:36 PM
Yeah, that is -one way- to do it
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:36 PM
That's like the only application of logically moving the world.
Ryusho - Today at 3:37 PM
But you can make games that the world is -static- and the player moves
aka how non-endless games tend to work
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:37 PM
Seems you took a note on that the ship in futurama doesnt move, it just moves the universe itself.
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:37 PM
You're talking about the wrong layer of abstraction :P
Ryusho - Today at 3:37 PM
No I'm talking about engine mechanics themselves
Visually, Sure the player stays in place and the world movces
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:37 PM
Yes.
That is what I'm talking about.
Ryusho - Today at 3:37 PM
But I am talking mechanically
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:38 PM
The game engine actually turns whatever logical movement into a static viewpoint with everything else moving around it.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:38 PM
Mechanisms that make the world move? No way
Ryusho - Today at 3:38 PM
I dunno,
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:38 PM
Because that's just how 3D works.
But that abstraction isn't obvious.
Ryusho - Today at 3:38 PM
I have played games where player movement is completely capable of being sepreate from camera movement
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:38 PM
Loom that is sometimes true
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:38 PM
And wasn't at the time.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:38 PM
Depends on programming
Ryusho - Today at 3:39 PM
Thats what I was saying Jolteon but he was arguing with me
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:39 PM
The player is also part of the world.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:39 PM
arguing is a strong term
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:39 PM
The view point doesn't move.
Ryusho - Today at 3:39 PM
Okay, he was telling me I'm wrong
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:39 PM
I was trying to say how the whole camera thing is a thing that had to be figured out first.
Because it's non-obvious with how 3D actually works.
Ryusho - Today at 3:40 PM
shrugs,
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:40 PM
Think of how the screens used to move as the character moves on a screen.
In links awakening
The world HAS to move
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:41 PM
That's not 3D.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:41 PM
Similar concept
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:41 PM
No, the way you render a 2D thing on a 2D plane is a way different concept from turning a 3D thing onto a 2D plane :P
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:41 PM
The basis is the character appears one way when something else is happening.
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:42 PM
In 2D, you only have a world.
As opposed to also having a view and a projection and stuff like that.
But you don't do any of that guff, you just put pixels on the screen.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:44 PM
True
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:45 PM
So in the end, the world does move, but it's completely obvious how it does. You have an X coordinate and a Y coordinate and you draw stuff in the right place.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:45 PM
But in 3d, it could be that your character is in one place
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:46 PM
Call it the view point.
It's only the character if it's first person.
Otherwise the character you see is just like any other thing in the world.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:48 PM
So you control the world by controlling the 3d model in the world to change the world itself through moving the landmark which is the 3d model
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:48 PM
Wellll
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:48 PM
Which tells the computer what to draw based on eithe4 character location or camera view.
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:50 PM
Something like Mario 64 is from a time before that stuff's been figured out. So that's not what they tell the computer.
They tell it to draw a bunch of triangles, figure out which ones are in front of others, and in the end somehow project it onto the 2D plane that is the screen.
So there's a world, that's just where the triangles are, but there's no camera in that equation.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:51 PM

askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:53 PM
To actually have a camera, you have to move the world around correctly to make it seem like there is. Which is something that Nintendo figured out how to get working more or less properly.
And which is why they added those weird C buttons when no other controller had something like it.
To control the camera they came up with.
Ryusho - Today at 3:55 PM
...Or..You could just make the world..a static thing, and have the camera movement and player movement determine precisely what should be drawn...so that way it just can choose to render things according to a floating moving XYZ co-ordinate and Rotation, rather then having to rotate and move -everything else...
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:55 PM
That requires more programming
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:56 PM
That's how it works logically.
Ryusho - Today at 3:56 PM
...SIGH
Fuck it
I get it Older games use that stype
I'm talking abou tin general where games now days can choose a style
In fact I know old vector games -HAD- to use that stype because they were not -proper 3d-
IN fact all the gasmes that have to move the world in relation to the player are -not- proper 3d games for the most part but simulated 3d
They are 2d with rendering tricks to make them 3d
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:57 PM
Starfox
Ryusho - Today at 3:57 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Eo1D6VW8
YouTube
The Game Theorists
Doom WASN'T 3D! - Digressing and Sidequesting


Or the original doom
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:57 PM
You're still talking about the wrong thing :P
Ryusho - Today at 3:57 PM
No loom
Your just being thick
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:57 PM
Ryuso shush
Ryusho - Today at 3:57 PM
Your wanting to nitpick about a upser 100000% precise SUPER PRECISE only one terminologicy can be correct thing
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 3:57 PM
Hug the jolt owo
Ryusho - Today at 3:58 PM
and ignore everything -BUT- that in your idea
Im talking about ENGINE mECHANICS and the actual process considering I AM TRYING TO LEARN GAME DEVELOPMENT
askmeaboutloom - Today at 3:58 PM
I know, that is how engines work :P
Ryusho - Today at 3:59 PM
I understand "The concept of the world moving and the camera and character being perfectly still" is a "incredibly losoe concept on how to understand how 3d appears to the viewer or in certian older games"
But for fucks sake, Why are you just trying to say "No your wrong" to -everything- that is not exactly 3 million percent relevent to the -exact precise idea- that you have..
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:00 PM
Because I know what you're talking about, and it's not what I'm talking about :P
Ryusho - Today at 4:00 PM
.....Throws hands up THATS IT
I GIVE UP
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:00 PM
The point being, that engines actually let you talk about stuff like a camera and such is something that was figured out around the time of Mario 64.
Ryusho - Today at 4:00 PM
http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/22/227859f57b79cf9dedd773f735abbcd24477b4cc1e20c1eda31cfc002fde8112.jpg

Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 4:01 PM
I still wanna talk more bout it loom
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:01 PM
It's not obvious that they have to work that way from how 3D actually works. Which isn't something you can make go away, that's always gonna be under the hood of the engine.
Ryusho - Today at 4:01 PM
just doesn't get it because he is a logical fellow himself, and doesn't get this strange mid-ways world logic that is...he ...ugh
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 4:02 PM
Ryusho, loom does programming.
Ryusho - Today at 4:02 PM
has learned modeling has learned game making, Has made things in RPG maker for a class he took, has studied some other things, he just -doesn't get a ny idea of what side of the box your attacking when he has looked at all six sides of the cube and keeps getting hit from some -seventh direction-
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 4:02 PM
Languages.
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:02 PM
Because I've done all those and I've done low-level graphics programming :P
Turning the models into triangles and sending them off to the graphics card. Programming the shaders to move the vertices in the right place and blit the pixels.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 4:03 PM
Because when 1+1=2, 2-1=1 is the same equation.
Ryusho - Today at 4:03 PM
.....blink
...Okay
So you are -literally- Talking about the programming, on how it tells the video display to show things, -NOT HOW THE ENGINE ITSELF WORKS-
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:04 PM
Yes :P
Ryusho - Today at 4:04 PM
Well -THERES THE PROBLEM-
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 4:04 PM
Who said it was a problem?
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:04 PM
That the engine should work that way is not obvious.
Ryusho - Today at 4:04 PM
I mean the problem about me not understanding what the hell he was atlking about
and feeling he just kept telling me "Your wrong, Your Wrong, YOUR WRONG"
Because I was talking about game engines, and their programing and how they keep track of things
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:05 PM
I was talking about the whole camera thing, how it's totally not obvious, because that's not how it works. It's something that had to be invented.
Ryusho - Today at 4:05 PM
Not the programing on how it breaks every tiny data point on to the graphics card to tell the graphics card how to show things so it works X_X
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:06 PM
I was talking about Mario 64 though, there just weren't engines around :P
Ryusho - Today at 4:07 PM
..Im assuming then that your talking with knowledge from having -dissaemebeled the engine- then
disassembled*
because of the fact you would not know that is the precise way it works -unless- you had done such
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:07 PM
Uh, no, it's just how you project a 3D image onto a 2D plane. It's maths.
I couldn't tell you how the graphics pipeline works, but you're not gonna change maths.
Ryusho - Today at 4:07 PM
.................
screams internally
NEW MESSAGES
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:08 PM
It's the maths that you talk to the graphics card to, calm down.
You said yourself the only thing that does it differently: old pseudo-3D games like Doom.
Jolteon Zeke (Xelios) - Today at 4:08 PM
I think he means that coordinates and numbers, Mason. Ons and offs of certain switches.
askmeaboutloom - Today at 4:08 PM
They do ray-tracing instead.