<MjnMixael> basically, Axem, would that break existing missions?
<Axem> interesting dilemma
<Zacam-Work> Since I could see a convoy scenario where you can allow for both docking departure as well as "bail teh fuck out" jumping.
<Karajorma> Okay, here's something to consider.....
<Axem> i can see problems arising for things like diaspora and tbp where not all ships have that subspace ability
<Axem> unless it doesnt affect them?
<Karajorma> What happens if I give the wing departure orders for a ship that isn't in the mission yet
<Zacam-Work> You....can't
<Zacam-Work> Oh.
<Zacam-Work> As in depart to follow docking
<Zacam-Work> but the dockee isn't in yet.
<Karajorma> The capship jumps in once the area is secure
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<MjnMixael> probably the same that happens if you order it with sexps
<Zacam-Work> aka: Mission 1 of FS2 with the hattie.
<FUBAR|retired_> well if you have arrive via docking bay and the ship isn't there yet I think they show up at mission start
<Karajorma> Yeah but the old system worked in FS2
<Karajorma> and the new system will break
<FUBAR|retired_> but was that with player orders or orders in general?  the bug is only player orders
<FUBAR|retired_> so unless the player has to tell them to depart for some reason
<Karajorma> In general it's up to the FREDder to consider whether the ship is there
<Karajorma> but in FS2, there is no way to consider that
<Karajorma> for player orders
<Karajorma> at least not in retail
<FUBAR|retired_> what happens if the order is given to a single ship instead of the wing?
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<Karajorma> So changing this behaviour potentially breaks any retail-style mission
<MjnMixael> this is going to make my head hurt
<Karajorma> Retail itself should be okay since I don't think we have any missions where the wings depart from a bay
<Karajorma> and now, there are SEXPs to allow you to turn the depart orders on and off
<MjnMixael> and to change them completely
<Zacam-Work> There are missions with wings departing by bay. But, you also can't give those wings any orders.
<FUBAR|retired_> so you have 4 senerions 1.  order given by fred to ship.  2. order given by fred to wing.  3.  Order given by player to ship.  4. order given by player to wing
<Zacam-Work> At least not to depart.
<FUBAR|retired_> 1, 2, and 3 have the same behavior right now it's only 4 that doesnt'
<Karajorma> Basically my worry is that we're potentially breaking every mission that had a depart via bay for a capship that hasn't arrived yet
<FUBAR|retired_> and 3 works if that ship is in a wing just not for the wing itself so there is already break potential
<Karajorma> that's a lot of missions
<MjnMixael> throw in a backup? if ship not present, warp out?
<FUBAR|retired_> if the player gives orders to each ship in a wing of 4 ships he gets different behavior then if he gives it to the entire wing
<FUBAR|retired_> backup should be whatever a single ship does.
<FUBAR|retired_> anything beyond that can be added as a feature for things like TBP and Diaspora
<Zacam-Work> I think that if the departure location (bay, dock) isn't available to a single ship it does jump out. I could be wrong though.
<Karajorma> That would be okay then
<FUBAR|retired_> and really in TBP we just write tha off as a ship sitting in hyperspace opening a jump point for them
<Karajorma> In new missions you can just turn off the depart orders or even better have them be depart via hyperspace until the ship arrives and then change the depart orders via Goober's new SEXP
<MjnMixael> yeah
<Karajorma> If the default is to depart if the ship isn't present, that removes my largest issue. There may be other missions that break though
<FUBAR|retired_> really you can lock most of it down with a well fredded mission in single it's just when you get to multi that things become a little harder to control
<Karajorma> The other scenario I mentioned was where you capture an enemy ship and then land on it at mission end. In that scenario you wouldn't want to have your wingmen land on the ship until mission end, even though the ship is present
<FUBAR|retired_> well then the real question is is there any way to lock down orders for ships in a wing but not the wing itself.  Basically a player can give orders to the wing but not a ship in it.  Otherwise those missions already have the issue
<Karajorma> But I don't know if anyone has FREDded a mission like that
<Karajorma> That is true FUBAR.
<Karajorma> I tend to lean towards fixing it. But I won't be surprised if it breaks something
<MjnMixael> i dunno.. I kinda fall on the side of unifying the behavior (with the warp out fallback) and the few missions that still have issues can be quickly patched up with the new sexps (assuming we aren't talking retail missions, which is highly unlikely now)
<Karajorma> But if ships warp out if the ship the are meant to depart from isn't present, then the majority of cases I'm worried about don't exist
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<Karajorma> I agree with you Mjn, on that condition
<Karajorma> Otherwise there are a lot of missions we could be breaking